Suisei no Gargantia Episode 3 Discussion

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Feb 2013

587

fdsfgs said:

AnimageNeby said:

Gan_HOPE326 said:
My two cents... the initial setting of this series made me think of Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", and this episode's approach to violence did too. Mind you, Heinlein was a former marine, so no pacifist. In "Starship Troopers" (the book, not the shitty movie) there's a point when a soldier asks his drill sergeant why do they need to learn how to use a knife when they could just nuke the shit out of all their enemies. The sergeant answers: "if a little kid does something wrong, would you behead him?" "certainly not!" "the what?" "a good spanking would be enough." "very well. war is not about annihilating the enemy; it's about making him do what you want him to do. force needs to be used with restraint appropriate to the situation" (in a nutshell, these are not the exact words). This is also what Bellows said: "even just having weapons is a way of treating". Or in von Clausewitz's words, ""War is the continuation of politics by other means". Following your logic, during the 60s, USA and URSS should have reduced each other into radioactive ashes instead of surviving both on a precarious balance built on deterrence.

So yeah. I love this series even more for being so realistic and well thought out. This has nothing to do with "herp derp I can't kill them even though they are evil and will destroy the world and be unstoppable if I don't". This actually makes sense.

No it doesn't. That's just the whole point: EVEN if they adher to such a philosophy (which only works against an enemy who isn't stronger than you, btw.), it STILL would have made more sense to let Ledo handle it.

He could disable the entire pirate fleet with a minimal loss of Pirates and NO loss on their side.

Instead, they attack with their ships, far outnumbered. They suffer heavy losses, AND they fire on pirate-ships filled with pirates; this would kill more 'human lives' far more indiscriminatingly than what Ledo could do.

If you give a caveman a machine gun, a weapon that is utterly alien to him and well outside his realm of experience and understanding, and show him how it can be used to take down small game, do you think he would easily be able to figure out how it can be used to take down a pack of leopards or a herd of wooly mammoths? Because this is pretty much a similar situation to the one in Gargantia.

Actually yes I think he would. It's a natural human reaction to think to the next level and going one step bigger. If I was taught how to use a gun to shoot small game, I would do that for awhile before wondering, "Hey, I wonder how would this work on bigger game?" And then adjusting what I learned at first and with practice being able to take down larger game.

Thinking outside of the box and going to bigger and better things, is how humanity has advanced as it has.

Apr 21, 2013 3:25 PM

#111

Brotwo

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Jan 2013

478

Good show so far. I think they just didn't realize the full extent of Ledo's powers hence their reasoning which sounded silly to us because of our knowledge of Ledo's alien fighting powers.

Gan_HOPE326 said:
Following your logic, during the 60s, USA and URSS should have reduced each other into radioactive ashes instead of surviving both on a precarious balance built on deterrence

Except this show doesn't have them on nearly the same level of power. It'd be more like if one of them had a laser from a satellite that could wipe out the other off the face of the earth instantly. That's the extent of Ledo's powers, the people just didn't realize it yet. At least, I hope so otherwise this show will disappoint a little.

Apr 21, 2013 3:28 PM

#112

mistress_kisara

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Dec 2007

606

Ledo is so much more moe than the girls XD

Apr 21, 2013 3:30 PM

#113

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Feb 2013

623

Takuan_Soho said:

Wordsmith said:
Also, that piratechick is crazy. Or maybe she just doesn't realize what chamber can do.
Also, pulling him under water isn't going to work. He's made for deep space and lay for half a year ion the ground of the sea already. And I doubt his gravity propulsion thingamabob has trouble with being underwater either.

Neither side gets what Chamber can do, that is good thing about this show. When confronted with transformation technology people immediately try to associate it with what they know. They literally do not have the imagination to understand what it can do. Take the machine gun, it took 50 years for European Generals to get through their noggin's the real destructive power of the gun, this is why so many people were killed in WWI. Even though they used these guns against non-Europeans for decades, they still never completely got their heads around the power they had.

As for not getting "deep space". These people think that space is similar to Earth. Remember they think a sail boat if it could fly could get there in one day. They cannot comprehend how powerful and deadly vacuum can be. Probably much like the ancient Greeks and European Middle Ages they believe that nature abhors vacuums. For this reason the concept of "ether" was invented. It was only in the early part of the 20th century that people finally realized that space is a vacuum.

To be exact, the boy only said some dude told him that if a ship continued straight up, it would reach space in a day.

He didn't actually say or indicate they thought space was filled with air, that they were unaware of vacuum or that they thought a seaship *could* actually do it. It's more like people saying, after having driven 350000 miles, they could have driven to the moon. It's only pertaining to the distance (or time).

Technically, the boy is right. If you could go straight up with a ship, and assuming their ships have an average speed of 15-20 miles an hour, and seen the fact that the official 'border' of space is set at 100 miles, it would mean you reached it after 5-6 hours.

The atmosphere, let's not forget, is very thin. If you go straight up, even after 40 km you've reached the end of it. (You'll suffocate even much sooner, of course).

They said that the pirate fleet was just "all in this area", which means there are much larger ones out there, who will probably unite against Gargantia now. This is why the leaders were so paranoid. They know that the relative strength between them and the pirates is too wide. They haven't quite figured out that Ledo could not only wipe out Gargantia, but every single pirate on the planet. The scale to understand this is just too big.

Agreed. It is implied there are other area's with other pirate-fleets. That said, if Ledo had wiped them out in one minute, and only let live a handful to tell the tale, I doubt any other pirate fleet would be so foolish to go near Gargantia.

Wordsmith said:

On a completely unrelated side note, I wanna hug Amy. This is all.

Yes. I want to 'hug' Amy too. And Bellows. And that Pirate woman. And her two SM-inclined female slaves.

Preferably all at once, in one and the same huge bed.

;-p

Orulyon said:

Also I wonder how humans reproduce in space. Certainly not in the "traditional" way. I think Ledo would be disgusted if Amy tried to kiss him, LOL.

Good question.

It's suggested at least the soldiers are somehow 'grown' or cloned in incubators...but at the same time, he did get leave to 'reproduce' on Avalon (together with sleeping and eating and other normal activities). So I'm wondering if they have two different sets of reproduction. Also...does he even know how to do it? With such a strict military upbringing and raised for the sole purpose of waging war, I doubt they wasted much time on sexual education.

AnimageNebyApr 21, 2013 3:37 PM

Apr 21, 2013 3:34 PM

#114

temporary

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Apr 2007

393

saucenhan said:
oh my hero
why you let some barbarians change your style
now you are not cool anymore

Indeed, god dammit. Should have, at least, killed the leader.

Apr 21, 2013 3:36 PM

#115

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Feb 2013

623

fdsfgs said:

AnimageNeby said:

Gan_HOPE326 said:
My two cents... the initial setting of this series made me think of Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", and this episode's approach to violence did too. Mind you, Heinlein was a former marine, so no pacifist. In "Starship Troopers" (the book, not the shitty movie) there's a point when a soldier asks his drill sergeant why do they need to learn how to use a knife when they could just nuke the shit out of all their enemies. The sergeant answers: "if a little kid does something wrong, would you behead him?" "certainly not!" "the what?" "a good spanking would be enough." "very well. war is not about annihilating the enemy; it's about making him do what you want him to do. force needs to be used with restraint appropriate to the situation" (in a nutshell, these are not the exact words). This is also what Bellows said: "even just having weapons is a way of treating". Or in von Clausewitz's words, ""War is the continuation of politics by other means". Following your logic, during the 60s, USA and URSS should have reduced each other into radioactive ashes instead of surviving both on a precarious balance built on deterrence.

So yeah. I love this series even more for being so realistic and well thought out. This has nothing to do with "herp derp I can't kill them even though they are evil and will destroy the world and be unstoppable if I don't". This actually makes sense.

No it doesn't. That's just the whole point: EVEN if they adher to such a philosophy (which only works against an enemy who isn't stronger than you, btw.), it STILL would have made more sense to let Ledo handle it.

He could disable the entire pirate fleet with a minimal loss of Pirates and NO loss on their side.

Instead, they attack with their ships, far outnumbered. They suffer heavy losses, AND they fire on pirate-ships filled with pirates; this would kill more 'human lives' far more indiscriminatingly than what Ledo could do.

If you give a caveman a machine gun, a weapon that is utterly alien to him and well outside his realm of experience and understanding, and show him how it can be used to take down small game, do you think he would easily be able to figure out how it can be used to take down a pack of leopards or a herd of wooly mammoths? Because this is pretty much a similar situation to the one in Gargantia.

Not quite.

Nobody is asking how to use Chambers. They do not need to figure it out, they just have to ask Ledo.

So actually, your analogy would be:

If a caveman met a guy with a machine gun, a weapon that is utterly alien to him and well outside his realm of experience and understanding, and he could talk with that guy, and that person showed how it works and can explain what it can do, do you think the caveman would easily be able to figure out how that machine-carrying person, if he's willing to do so, can be used to take down a pack of leopards or a herd of woolly mammoths?

Then my answer would be: yes, he can. He most certainly can. In fact, it wouldn't be long before he makes such a link and asks for that exact same possibility.

AnimageNebyApr 21, 2013 3:41 PM

Apr 21, 2013 3:38 PM

#116

Uchihafan25

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May 2012

608

Man Gargantia could've really used Kira Yamato and the Strike Freedom for this battle! He could've just easily beam spammed all of those pirates in mere seconds without killing any them! XD Anyway great episode. We obviously haven't seen the last of Lukkage and her pirate crew, she'll probably become a serious problem in later episodes. Although at this point I don't see how they would have a chance since Led and Chamber are just so overpowering. Perhaps the pirates will steal Chamber or get some data on it in the future. Really looking forward to seeing how this anime unfolds.

"No matter how much of a genius one is, in front of the Uchiha name, they're just ordinary people." - Sasuke Uchiha

Apr 21, 2013 3:49 PM

#117

AlexGK

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Jan 2011

972

Takuan_Soho said:

AlexGK said:
Oh, come on, that initial encounter was more than enough to prove noone is a match for Chamber. Even he himself told them. If they still think the pirates are stronger then they have no brains. Its not that what led them in their actions, its the fact they believed the pirates could be reasoned with and, maybe, some sort of stupid pride that they could handle it themselves and scare the pirates off. Sacrificing the life of the captain would accomplish nothing but leave them leaderless and easier to conquer. Sorry, its really braindead logic, dont try to defend it. Saw what happened when the pirates leader was gone? Same would happen with Gargantia.

Whats more, if you always bow to the pirates and give them what they want, let them kill your comrades, pretty soon they will enslave whats left of your fleet. Not to mention your own comrades might decide to kick your ass for valuing your enemies life same as your own.

Dont get me wrong, Ledo did a lot of pointless killing, but how would it make things better to have Bellows and her crew raped/killed and her boat taken over? Turn a blind eye? For how long? How long will you tolerate them?
Feeding scum wont get you far. Eventually there will be more and more scum that wants all for free and less and less people they can feed on. Its no something that boosts progress you know.

Personally I have no issue with pointless killings, I am not trying to make a moral argument, but rather explain why they acted as they did.

The Pirate Fleet they fought (which is just one fleet mind you, they said there were others and larger ones at that) outnumbered them nearly 3 to one. Even with surprise, even with being able to "cross the t", the defending fleet was only going to last 17 minutes. That suggests not only more ships, but better technology as well.

Given the overwhelming strength of just this one Pirate fleet, the only reason why these people aren't dead or enslaved is because the Pirates want them alive. In short the Pirates are running a protection racket: they periodically raid and kill/rape a few people, but they leave the vast majority of people alive. The last thing the "free" fleets can afford to do is to piss off a pirate fleet, let alone give the myriad fleets a reason to unify. Think of South Korea as an example. Every year or so North Korea kills 20-30 South Korean citizens, the South puts up with it because they know a war with the North would kill millions of people. The people of Gargantia are in a similar position. Sure they want to fight, but that would be suicide.

As for them knowing what they had with Ledo. First, they don't trust him, nor should they. Ledo made a false promise to Amy, he has every intention of leaving when he has the chance. Plus he told them that he aligned with them only because it was efficient, that is not exactly a ringing endorsement that he will stick with them as more and more Pirates attack them.

Second, yes he wasted a small raiding party, but they had no reason to extrapolate this to mean he could take on an entire Pirate Fleet (now they do). The technology of this Pirate Fleet was much stronger than the raiding party, and I imagine there are stronger one's out there. They know that Ledo is very strong, but strong enough to waste every Pirate Fleet? Why should they believe that. We know that Ledo fought aliens in space, we know what would required to do that, we know relatively how much stronger he is than the Pirates, however they have no idea.

Wrong. They said the pirate fleet was unusually strong, possibly gathering all the pirates in the area. Bellows said they need the weapons to defend themselves. So any notion that the pirates are stronger than the civilian fleets and keep them alive for racket is your own speculation. Also, if that were the case they would not open fire on them to begin with. No, the issue this whole episode was pacifism.
Dude, the Korean example you give is a whole different case. The main point being that Nord Koreans gain nothing by killing even 100 people. While the pirates here get stronger and stronger if you constantly play into their hands. Besides its nowhere near 20 ppl per year, more like 2-3 on a couple of rare occasions. And if you ask me they wont get away with it for too long now. What saves them is the sole fact that they are not worth it, and their offenses so far do not justify spending the resources needed to wipe them. Nothing like the case in the show here.

Ledo had no reason to help them to begin with. The sole fact he did should be reassuring. Having real reasons behind his intent is even better. Sorry, learn that beggars cant be choosers. If you dont trust anyone there cant be no society. How is Ledo any different than another civilian fleet or sole boat that would want to join Gargantia?

What false promise has he made? Are we even watching the same show? He said hed consider it, witch he will eventually do, considering he thinks this can become the new human main world, he didnt promise to stay or anything.

He vaporised the pirates. In seconds. Anyone with brains witnessing this will KNOW his mech is unstoppable. True, the survivors from the pirates wouldnt know what happened exactly, those were people thrown underwater and unable to see anything clear. While Bellows and her crewmen had front seats. This explains why the pirates even attacked.

AlexGKApr 21, 2013 3:55 PM

Apr 21, 2013 3:50 PM

#118

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Feb 2013

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CallMeIshmael said:

Aether was a idea that was necessary because from the double slit experiment light was known to be a wave, and all waves need something to transmit them - sound with air, water waves with ... water, crowd waves etc. The Michelson-Morley experiment showed that light didn't behave like other waves - there was no Aether - so physics was like wtf? until Special Relativity.

This is completely correct. It had nothing to do with the philosophy of the old Greeks of the 'nature abhors vacuum' idea.

But, as said, the boy was technically right: if a ship could go straight up, purely speaking hypothetically, with their average speed of 20MPH, they would reach space within a day.

Apr 21, 2013 3:51 PM

#119

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Mar 2010

5

Not sure if anyone has addressed this yet, if they have, sorry, but...

How come he had to refrain from killing the pirates a second time around? The first time I thought was a little ridiculous, but they did anticipate revenge and it makes sense to seek peace as opposed to violence, but the second time around he had to refrain from killing.

Isn't this a bit weird? I know they say some stuff about the cultural values Amy's people carry, but, Bellows did say that carrying a gun is still justifiable, right? Thoughts?

I personally thought he should have been given the permission to annihilate them all, since its not like they seem the type to just give up and stop bothering them after one harmless show of strength... One evil for a thousand goods, I guess?

Apr 21, 2013 4:02 PM

#120

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Feb 2013

623

TehSneasel said:
Not sure if anyone has addressed this yet, if they have, sorry, but...

How come he had to refrain from killing the pirates a second time around? The first time I thought was a little ridiculous, but they did anticipate revenge and it makes sense to seek peace as opposed to violence, but the second time around he had to refrain from killing.

Isn't this a bit weird? I know they say some stuff about the cultural values Amy's people carry, but, Bellows did say that carrying a gun is still justifiable, right? Thoughts?

I personally thought he should have been given the permission to annihilate them all, since its not like they seem the type to just give up and stop bothering them after one harmless show of strength... One evil for a thousand goods, I guess?

Maybe you might check the thread a bit before asking. I, as well as lots of others, have commented at length to that.

In short: it is weird, and doesn't make much sense, indeed.

Not that they should have asked to kill all pirates; seen their values, it makes sense, in-story (as opposed to how we would or wouldn't act) to ask Ledo not to annihilate all pirates.

HOWEVER, what *does not* make sense is forbidding him to take any pirate lives, while they themselves have no problem firing at pirate-ships filled with pirates: one hit, and you kill a lot of 'human lives' too. So why not ask Ledo to minimise the death-toll, but make nevertheless sure they don't pose a threat anymore? There is no logic in preferring a brute force attack killing pirates with cannons indiscriminatingly, than to kill in a much more surgical precise way with lasers.

Apr 21, 2013 4:05 PM

#121

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Sep 2011

369

stefeman said:

And maybe Ledo is not "doomed to" stay in the Earth for rest of his life.. i'm pretty sure he will be reunited with the Galactic alliance soon enough in a way or another...

Here's the thing. If the fleet does find him what do you think will happen to those inhabitants of earth? Do you think the fleet is just going to leave a habitable planet like that alone? The only way this is going to be a happy ending for the locals is if Ledo and Chamber leave now otherwise they will be exterminated.

Apr 21, 2013 4:08 PM

#122

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Mar 2010

5

AnimageNeby said:

TehSneasel said:
Not sure if anyone has addressed this yet, if they have, sorry, but...

How come he had to refrain from killing the pirates a second time around? The first time I thought was a little ridiculous, but they did anticipate revenge and it makes sense to seek peace as opposed to violence, but the second time around he had to refrain from killing.

Isn't this a bit weird? I know they say some stuff about the cultural values Amy's people carry, but, Bellows did say that carrying a gun is still justifiable, right? Thoughts?

I personally thought he should have been given the permission to annihilate them all, since its not like they seem the type to just give up and stop bothering them after one harmless show of strength... One evil for a thousand goods, I guess?

Maybe you might check the thread a bit before asking. I, as well as lots of others, have commented at length to that.

In short: it is weird, and doesn't make much sense, indeed.

Not that they should have asked to kill all pirates; seen their values, it makes sense, in-story (as opposed to how we would or wouldn't act) to ask Ledo not to annihilate all pirates.

HOWEVER, what *does not* make sense is forbidding him to take any pirate lives, while they themselves have no problem firing at pirate-ships filled with pirates: one hit, and you kill a lot of 'human lives' too. So why not ask Ledo to minimise the death-toll, but make nevertheless sure they don't pose a threat anymore? There is no logic in preferring a brute force attack killing pirates with cannons indiscriminatingly, than to kill in a much more surgical precise way with lasers.

Yep, and that is why I put the disclaimer in there. Sorry I offended you, but reviving a discussion isn't always bad. Now the late people, including me, have a chance to discuss as well, and perhaps with new minds and perspectives we can get new opinions, ideas, etc. onto the table.

And yeah, I was thinking on the same wavelength on that. Like, they did shoot cannons and stuff, and the pirates themselves said "Ship X is on fire!" Lives were lost nonetheless, why not just make Ledo go around using the laser things to just take out all the cannons? Why did he manually take them out? Or why not just make Ledo disable the ships or something? Exhibit immense power and then let the pirates decide what to do (flee)?

Apr 21, 2013 4:10 PM

#123

AlexGK

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Jan 2011

972

Gan_HOPE326 said:

AnimageNeby said:

Gan_HOPE326 said:
My two cents... the initial setting of this series made me think of Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", and this episode's approach to violence did too. Mind you, Heinlein was a former marine, so no pacifist. In "Starship Troopers" (the book, not the shitty movie) there's a point when a soldier asks his drill sergeant why do they need to learn how to use a knife when they could just nuke the shit out of all their enemies. The sergeant answers: "if a little kid does something wrong, would you behead him?" "certainly not!" "the what?" "a good spanking would be enough." "very well. war is not about annihilating the enemy; it's about making him do what you want him to do. force needs to be used with restraint appropriate to the situation" (in a nutshell, these are not the exact words). This is also what Bellows said: "even just having weapons is a way of treating". Or in von Clausewitz's words, ""War is the continuation of politics by other means". Following your logic, during the 60s, USA and URSS should have reduced each other into radioactive ashes instead of surviving both on a precarious balance built on deterrence.

So yeah. I love this series even more for being so realistic and well thought out. This has nothing to do with "herp derp I can't kill them even though they are evil and will destroy the world and be unstoppable if I don't". This actually makes sense.

No it doesn't. That's just the whole point: EVEN if they adher to such a philosophy (which only works against an enemy who isn't stronger than you, btw.), it STILL would have made more sense to let Ledo handle it.

He could disable the entire pirate fleet with a minimal loss of Pirates and NO loss on their side.

Instead, they attack with their ships, far outnumbered. They suffer heavy losses, AND they fire on pirate-ships filled with pirates; this would kill more 'human lives' far more indiscriminatingly than what Ledo could do.

Ok, think of this. An alien starship falls on Earth: let's say on USA. In one occasion, they fight a battle against an enemy army, completely annihilating them. They also claim to be able to annihilate the entirety of USA without suffering any damage, though the government has no means to be sure of that and it sounds completely unbelievable. So, for you, the most logical thing to do would be to tell this guy to just go on a rampage and leave the entirety of the country's defence in his hands? What if he just goes away? What if he lied? What if he overestimated his own forces? We KNOW that Ledo is going to be strong enough because... well, he's the MC, and we saw him fighting the space plant thingies. These earthlings have no idea such technology can even exist. They can't assess the full extent of his strength and can't be sure how long he'll be with them - also because some of them would like to just kill him to stay on the safe side. What if they just provoke the rage of all pirates in the area and THEN they lose Ledo and Chamber? That's going to be a very painful death. Of course, fighting the battle in a way that'll teach the pirates that you don't mess with GARGANTIA, not with Mysterious Space Man Which May Or May Not Be Allied To Gargantia, is the most sensible course of action. Then again, Ledo is still the last resource.

This is more plausable. Still there are holes. They knew they were no match for the pirates on their own. Thats why they asked Ledo for help.
Like I said, they tought the pirates could be reasoned with. This is the sole reasoning behind their dumbhead move.

Be it japanese pacifism behind the plot, or the sole need somehow to make 'intresting battle' (cose another onesided wipe would be boring to watch) it ruined the episode for me. Story is the most important part of any show for me and this crap they served now just makes me sad - the show really started promising.

Apr 21, 2013 4:14 PM

#124

Kurogashi

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Jul 2009

2641

fucking hippies.
they lost a bunch of people in that fight when that kid couldve roflstomped them all in one shot.

Apr 21, 2013 4:15 PM

#125

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Mar 2010

5

scruffykiwi said:

stefeman said:

And maybe Ledo is not "doomed to" stay in the Earth for rest of his life.. i'm pretty sure he will be reunited with the Galactic alliance soon enough in a way or another...

Here's the thing. If the fleet does find him what do you think will happen to those inhabitants of earth? Do you think the fleet is just going to leave a habitable planet like that alone? The only way this is going to be a happy ending for the locals is if Ledo and Chamber leave now otherwise they will be exterminated.

I agree and disagree at the same time. I think you're right that if and when the fleet does get here, there will inevitably be conflict as the two "races," collide. Furthermore, you are totally right, I doubt they will leave the planet alone, and actually, I believe Ledo says something of that nature himself (something like, "This would be a good planet to settle on..." after hearing the levels in the air and the abundance of water). But the extermination part I'm not sure of. We are talking about a human civilization that has advanced far more than Amy's people, who themselves are pretty developed. I think it would make sense and be acceptable to guess that Ledo's people will be fairly diplomatic with how to handle the planet, but then again, we really can't tell at the moment...

Apr 21, 2013 4:19 PM

#126

nauticalblue

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Mar 2012

354

So they tell Ledo to stop killing humans without a reason with his vaporizer and then proceed to fire cannons at the pirate ships?
That made no sense.

Weakest episode of the three so far.

Apr 21, 2013 4:29 PM

#127

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Sep 2011

369

Kurogashi said:
fucking hippies.
they lost a bunch of people in that fight when that kid couldve roflstomped them all in one shot.

The're not being hippies. They simply don't trust Ledo to not turn his guns onto them after he's wiped out the pirates. The'd much rather kill him and dump him into the sea.

I think the reason why some people can't get their head around the locals response is that they are too used to the idea of overwhelming military might, ie 'shock and awe'. Instead this society seem to be living in the world where balance is very important, which is why they didn't want the second battle to be won by overwhelming might. Something that disurbes balance can lead to outright war .. and if Ledo buggers off in the middle of it they are all pirate bate!

Apr 21, 2013 4:33 PM

#128

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Feb 2013

623

Gan_HOPE326 said:

AnimageNeby said:

No it doesn't. That's just the whole point: EVEN if they adher to such a philosophy (which only works against an enemy who isn't stronger than you, btw.), it STILL would have made more sense to let Ledo handle it.

He could disable the entire pirate fleet with a minimal loss of Pirates and NO loss on their side.

Instead, they attack with their ships, far outnumbered. They suffer heavy losses, AND they fire on pirate-ships filled with pirates; this would kill more 'human lives' far more indiscriminatingly than what Ledo could do.

Ok, think of this. An alien starship falls on Earth: let's say on USA. In one occasion, they fight a battle against an enemy army, completely annihilating them. They also claim to be able to annihilate the entirety of USA without suffering any damage, though the government has no means to be sure of that and it sounds completely unbelievable. So, for you, the most logical thing to do would be to tell this guy to just go on a rampage and leave the entirety of the country's defence in his hands? What if he just goes away? What if he lied? What if he overestimated his own forces? We KNOW that Ledo is going to be strong enough because... well, he's the MC, and we saw him fighting the space plant thingies. These earthlings have no idea such technology can even exist. They can't assess the full extent of his strength and can't be sure how long he'll be with them - also because some of them would like to just kill him to stay on the safe side. What if they just provoke the rage of all pirates in the area and THEN they lose Ledo and Chamber? That's going to be a very painful death. Of course, fighting the battle in a way that'll teach the pirates that you don't mess with GARGANTIA, not with Mysterious Space Man Which May Or May Not Be Allied To Gargantia, is the most sensible course of action. Then again, Ledo is still the last resource.

Your analogy seems off on several points:

1) First off, why wouldn't the US believe an UFO capable of doing that, when they would have seen him wipe out an entire army in seconds without getting a scratch? Certainly, that would make you pause and think it's actually in the realm of possibility, after seeing such a thing! It wouldn't sound 'completely unbelievable' at all.

2)You don't let him 'out on a rampage'; you ask him to defeat an enemy who attacks you and who is stronger: a fully sensible thing to do and ask. If one is so extremely concerned about the lives of the enemy who wants to kill you, you can always ask to restrain himself and not kill everyone off in an instant. There is no need to ask him not to kill *any* enemy soldiers, and then send your own soldiers - and suffer own losses - to kill the enemy soldiers anyway. That makes NO sense; surely you can see that.

3)Giving the message that it is 'gargantia' not Ledo, which is attacking them, does not help in mitigating the possibility of revenge once Ledo is gone and pirates band together. On the contrary, where one could always otherwise put the blame solely on Ledo, and maybe use the excuse he forced them to provide shelter, if you clearly align yourself with him, that mitigating factor is gone. And the pirates already know how weak the their fleet is; they already started decimating it and would have destroyed it in 17 minutes. It's clear to all who defeated the pirate fleet: not the gargantian fleet - far from it, in fact - but Chambers.

Once this is made painfully clear, it doesn't really matter anymore for your counterarguments: the pirates are by now well aware it's not the gargantian fleet they have to worry about - it never was - but Chambers. A show of force only makes sense if you have enough force to be shown; this was not the case with the attacking gargantian fleet.

For all needs and purposes, thus, Ledo would have better done to make a more proper job of it, thus. If pirates will band together and seek revenge in the future, after Ledo has gone, then it won't be the feeble gargantian fleet which is going to stop them.

The ACTUAL 'most sensible course of action', thus, would be to take use of the opportunity now - since they've already reached a point of no return with the pirates anyhow - and reduce the power and abilities of the pirates as much as possible, with Chambers help, so they won't become a major threat anymore for a long time, even after Ledo goes.

AnimageNebyApr 21, 2013 4:46 PM

Apr 21, 2013 4:34 PM

#129

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Feb 2013

587

TehSneasel said:

scruffykiwi said:

stefeman said:

And maybe Ledo is not "doomed to" stay in the Earth for rest of his life.. i'm pretty sure he will be reunited with the Galactic alliance soon enough in a way or another...

Here's the thing. If the fleet does find him what do you think will happen to those inhabitants of earth? Do you think the fleet is just going to leave a habitable planet like that alone? The only way this is going to be a happy ending for the locals is if Ledo and Chamber leave now otherwise they will be exterminated.

I agree and disagree at the same time. I think you're right that if and when the fleet does get here, there will inevitably be conflict as the two "races," collide. Furthermore, you are totally right, I doubt they will leave the planet alone, and actually, I believe Ledo says something of that nature himself (something like, "This would be a good planet to settle on..." after hearing the levels in the air and the abundance of water). But the extermination part I'm not sure of. We are talking about a human civilization that has advanced far more than Amy's people, who themselves are pretty developed. I think it would make sense and be acceptable to guess that Ledo's people will be fairly diplomatic with how to handle the planet, but then again, we really can't tell at the moment...

Also take into account of how the Alliance could help the planet in terms of terraforming and such so there can be land to live on. Red has stated before that the Alliance in all of its years in space has never found another planet like Earth. I think with the planet already livable, the Alliance can find a way to make land.

Also the Alliance is not really that big. It's stated that its composed of only about 470 million people, which the Earth could support with ease along with those already on Earth. Red has stated that finding a planet like Earth is the Alliance's dream. I don't know enough about the people of the Alliance to judge them harshly, so I agree that if they want a planetary home, they can share the planet. It's better than getting attacked all the time by space snails....

I think there will be conflict between the two groups, but I don't think it would be on the scale of extermination. The Alliance has not been seen as bloodthirsty or really inherently evil. By attacking the Hideauze, they are protecting their homes that are being attacked, and even the weird parts of their culture can be chocked up to them adapting to life in space and therefore implementing rules in order to save on supplies and such.

I mean, if they were that bad. Red, who is fully part of the Alliance, would have taken over Gargantia, enslaved and/or killed the inhabitants and then sat and waited for the Alliance to answer his signal. But he doesn't do that, even with Chamber's suggestions.

Apr 21, 2013 4:35 PM

#130

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Mar 2010

5

scruffykiwi said:

Kurogashi said:
fucking hippies.
they lost a bunch of people in that fight when that kid couldve roflstomped them all in one shot.

The're not being hippies. They simply don't trust Ledo to not turn his guns onto them after he's wiped out the pirates. The'd much rather kill him and dump him into the sea.

I think the reason why some people can't get their head around the locals response is that they are too used to the idea of overwhelming military might, ie 'shock and awe'. Instead this society seem to be living in the world where balance is very important, which is why they didn't want the second battle to be won by overwhelming might. Something that disurbes balance can lead to outright war .. and if Ledo buggers off in the middle of it they are all pirate bate!

Interesting way of looking at it, but I still feel that it's silly. I don't really understand how a people will develop with that mentality, but that aside, the real question is still:

You can either have your women raped by the pirates, your stuff stolen and your people murdered, or kill them and avoid that all. Simple logic would dictate the latter option, would it not?

Furthermore, I understand the desire for balance, but when you have a hammer in your hand and everyone else has paper ninja stars, it doesn't matter whether you use that hammer or not, you're still overpowered.

Apr 21, 2013 4:38 PM

#131

hellogarry

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Apr 2011

833

Thank you xD

Epic!

Apr 21, 2013 4:44 PM

#132

Tyrel

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Sep 2011

9882

Another great episode. Though it would of been funner to see the pirates get blown up :D.

Apr 21, 2013 4:44 PM

#133

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Feb 2013

587

scruffykiwi said:

Kurogashi said:
fucking hippies.
they lost a bunch of people in that fight when that kid couldve roflstomped them all in one shot.

The're not being hippies. They simply don't trust Ledo to not turn his guns onto them after he's wiped out the pirates. The'd much rather kill him and dump him into the sea.

I think the reason why some people can't get their head around the locals response is that they are too used to the idea of overwhelming military might, ie 'shock and awe'. Instead this society seem to be living in the world where balance is very important, which is why they didn't want the second battle to be won by overwhelming might. Something that disurbes balance can lead to outright war .. and if Ledo buggers off in the middle of it they are all pirate bate!

But "balance of power" IS what it's all about. If the pirates, who are not a nation but parasites and bullies, sees that Gargantia has the ability to protect themselves and cargo, and can take any of them out with ease, they will steer clear of Gargantia as they'd rather handle easier prey.

By what your saying, Gargantia would rather keep the pirates alive to prey on them another day, and just hope that they don't take too much from them, or don't become to aggressive. Who wants to live with that kind of threat shadowing over them everyday?

If Gargantia shows enough force to make such an impression, to make such a stand, that no other fleet will ever think to attack to them again, then it wouldn't matter if Red is there or not. Just the threat of it will keep them protected.

Apr 21, 2013 4:45 PM

#134

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Sep 2011

369

TehSneasel said:

You can either have your women raped by the pirates, your stuff stolen and your people murdered, or kill them and avoid that all. Simple logic would dictate the latter option, would it not?

Furthermore, I understand the desire for balance, but when you have a hammer in your hand and everyone else has paper ninja stars, it doesn't matter whether you use that hammer or not, you're still overpowered.

They don't have a hammer in their hand do they. All they have is this one mysterious device with a pilot who they have no understandingly of motive and purpose, who can kill them all at a glance, and who is probably from off world. Their best option right now would be to kill him as he is too dangerous.

As awful as it is to say, they have survived now being pillaged by the pirates so they can survive in the future. My guess is that if a band of pirates goes too far then these floating states would band together to wipe them out, so the pirates themselves would self regulate. As I said, its all about balance and Ledo/Chamber completely destroys that balance.

Apr 21, 2013 4:50 PM

#135

Fiji

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Dec 2011

6101

The pirate fleet were no match to Chamber at all! Ahahaha.

Love that he spoke the "Thank You" in the end. I guess in a matter of next episode, Ledo might know how to speak Japanese.

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Apr 21, 2013 4:53 PM

#136

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Mar 2010

5

scruffykiwi said:

TehSneasel said:

You can either have your women raped by the pirates, your stuff stolen and your people murdered, or kill them and avoid that all. Simple logic would dictate the latter option, would it not?

Furthermore, I understand the desire for balance, but when you have a hammer in your hand and everyone else has paper ninja stars, it doesn't matter whether you use that hammer or not, you're still overpowered.

They don't have a hammer in their hand do they. All they have is this one mysterious device with a pilot who they have no understandingly of motive and purpose, who can kill them all at a glance, and who is probably from off world. Their best option right now would be to kill him as he is too dangerous.

As awful as it is to say, they have survived now being pillaged by the pirates so they can survive in the future. My guess is that if a band of pirates goes too far then these floating states would band together to wipe them out, so the pirates themselves would self regulate. As I said, its all about balance and Ledo/Chamber completely destroys that balance.

The metaphor/analogy is not meant to be taken literally. The point is that they have a device that, although mostly mysterious, has demonstrate it has the capacity for mass destruction (especially relative to what they are capable of. The machine says itself that it has the ability to wipe out their whole fleet, the Gargantia, easily).

I do understand the desire to kill him though, that is a sensible thought. Also, yes, that what I was saying though, that Ledo/Chamber is overpowered and has disrupted the balance, I did not refute that, actually, I affirmed it.

Apr 21, 2013 4:54 PM

#137

Jroflcopter

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Jul 2010

398

Those pirates got flung off so easily. Chamber is too op

Apr 21, 2013 4:55 PM

#138

Trizept

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Mar 2013

2470

Amazing episode
Awww...he said arigatou in the end >.<
I didn't really like how he had to hold back against the pirates, but then again it was to gain trust from the alliance so it's all good.

Apr 21, 2013 4:59 PM

#139

lanfire

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Jul 2012

252

AnimageNeby said:
Wait, wait...it's out there? Where?!! Is it subbed?

Bobjones said:

bippo said:
Amy should just stop giving him fish and just make out with him.

Woah, woah, they're like 10? Also, Gen's works rarely ever have explicit romance, even in his visual novels where romance and sex are a focal featured. He usually have the two lead roles get close and develop what could be a potential romance but something always happens to one of them: death, insanity, isolation, man-eating eldritch abomination, etc.

And that doesn't happen? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sean-12-is-the-youngest-father-1139875.html

Besides, you're aware how anime/manga depict its characters, right? They always seem much younger. Officially (in story) Amy is 14 and Ledo is 16. Old enough to get into a romance; even in our culture it's not that awkward to see romances at that age bloom. Besides, what do we know? Maybe it's fully normal in Amy's culture (not so much in Ledo's, as you have to show your worth in battle for 16 years before you can get laid, apparently ;-) )! Point is: I do not think anime and manga, especially when they are depicting another society/culture, should adhere to our moral senses. This was one of the good points of Shinsekai yori too; since their culture was quite different and explained they had another set of morals and were biologically altered to have sex in stressful situations (bonobo-genes), it made perfectly sense to show sexual activities even between kids. Without turning it into shotacon or loli, I may add. It made perfectly sense there, and was not portrayed unduly.

Anyway, I think it wouldn't be too strange if romance was hinted at in the anime, though you're right in saying Gen usually doesn't focus much on romance in his stories.

How is he only 16 when in the first episode it was said he has spent 145000 hours in the military service? That's 16 1/2 years if you count from the moment he was born but that doesn't seem right.

Apr 21, 2013 5:00 PM

#140

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Feb 2013

623

On another topic: I wonder how they will explain, in-story, how the world was covered in water. I mean, even when ALL the ice would have melted on earth, it still would only raise the sea by a few meters; *largely* insufficient to explain the loss of all land.

Even if we take the possibility that not ALL land disappeared under the oceans, and some higher places like the Himalayas sticks above but hasn't been discovered yet (maybe due to currents that carry the electricity-plankton which they can't leave for long)... the numbers are huge.

To cover most land around the world, you'd need 3,5 to 4 billion cubic kilometres of water. This is a humongous amount; three times the amount of water on our whole planet that we have today. So where did that water come from? I'm curious if they come up with some vaguely plausible (or at least marginally possible) answser.

AnimageNebyApr 21, 2013 5:56 PM

Apr 21, 2013 5:03 PM

#141

starmaker032

Offline

Apr 2013

42

People don't understand you don't just fucking give the stranger, who says he comes from space, the mission to protect you when you just met him.
They don't know why he is there and what his motives are.

They just saw him slaughter a bunch of people out of the blank because he saw them as enemies, he can turn on them, he can do whatever he wants with them..I like them would try to avoid him, they can't just control him so it's not as easy just kill all the pirates bro...who is to say the pirates couldn't bring him to their side??? The Gargantia crew wanted to not be associated with him so they didn't want to rely on him and he caused them trouble, only Amy asked for his help and that got them in deep shit, ofc they are not gonna like it.

They handled that well, they don't want to be on the wrong side with the pirates when they know or should know that Ledo has no alliance to them and no reason to stay with them or protect them in the future.

Apr 21, 2013 5:06 PM

#142

starmaker032

Offline

Apr 2013

42

Irenesharda said:

scruffykiwi said:

Kurogashi said:
fucking hippies.
they lost a bunch of people in that fight when that kid couldve roflstomped them all in one shot.

The're not being hippies. They simply don't trust Ledo to not turn his guns onto them after he's wiped out the pirates. The'd much rather kill him and dump him into the sea.

I think the reason why some people can't get their head around the locals response is that they are too used to the idea of overwhelming military might, ie 'shock and awe'. Instead this society seem to be living in the world where balance is very important, which is why they didn't want the second battle to be won by overwhelming might. Something that disurbes balance can lead to outright war .. and if Ledo buggers off in the middle of it they are all pirate bate!

But "balance of power" IS what it's all about. If the pirates, who are not a nation but parasites and bullies, sees that Gargantia has the ability to protect themselves and cargo, and can take any of them out with ease, they will steer clear of Gargantia as they'd rather handle easier prey.

By what your saying, Gargantia would rather keep the pirates alive to prey on them another day, and just hope that they don't take too much from them, or don't become to aggressive. Who wants to live with that kind of threat shadowing over them everyday?

If Gargantia shows enough force to make such an impression, to make such a stand, that no other fleet will ever think to attack to them again, then it wouldn't matter if Red is there or not. Just the threat of it will keep them protected.

No, everyone is gonna see it's the fucking flying robot who does the work, they are gonna try and get him to their sides and as soon as Ledo leaves or changes sides they are fucked. You do not want to put your "countrys" fate in the hands of a random stranger and machine, and you don't want to anger pirates that are stronger than you.

Apr 21, 2013 5:07 PM

#143

Offline

Sep 2011

369

AnimageNeby said:
On another topic: I wonder how they will explain, in-story, how the world was covered in water. I mean, even when ALL the ice would have melted on earth, it still would only raise the sea by a few meters; *largely* insufficient to explain the loss of all land.

Even if we take the possibility that not ALL land disappeared under the oceans, and some higher places like the Himalayas sticks above but hasn't been discovered yet (maybe due to currents that carry the electricity-plankton which they can't leave for long)... the numbers are huge.

To cover most land around the world, you'd need 3,551,121,264 cubic kilometres of water. This is a humongous amount; three times the amount of water on our whole planet that we have today. So where did that water come from? I'm curious if they come up with some vaguely plausible (or at least marginally possible) answser.

According to the anime the earth went iceball for a while. That would cause massive erosion so I guess that is what they will use. The bigger question is how humans survived during that period!

Apr 21, 2013 5:07 PM

#144

KneelBeforeMe

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Apr 2013

7998

great episode 5/5 this is the best of the spring with SnK.. I laughed when he threw Lukkage (the pirate woman) far away it reminded me of team rocket in pokemon ahahah

Apr 21, 2013 5:10 PM

#145

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Feb 2013

623

lanfire said:

How is he only 16 when in the first episode it was said he has spent 145000 hours in the military service? That's 16 1/2 years if you count from the moment he was born but that doesn't seem right.

Well, 16 and a half IS considered 16, no?

Or do you mean the (at first sight) discrepancy between his age and the time he's been at the military.

I'll refer you to this discussion (the lower parts of those posts), then: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=577931&show=540

Apr 21, 2013 5:14 PM

#146

ThumbsUpBaby

Offline

Nov 2010

149

Overall, I liked this episode. It showed the connection that Ledo can have with these strangers and in the end gain their trust. It was heartwarming indeed. I loved how he kept saying, "Surrender, surrender" while spinning that pirate at mid-air. Lol.

Apr 21, 2013 5:15 PM

#147

lanfire

Offline

Jul 2012

252

AnimageNeby said:

lanfire said:

How is he only 16 when in the first episode it was said he has spent 145000 hours in the military service? That's 16 1/2 years if you count from the moment he was born but that doesn't seem right.

Well, 16 and a half IS considered 16, no?

Or do you mean the (at first sight) discrepancy between his age and the time he's been at the military.

I'll refer you to this discussion (the lower parts of those posts), then: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=577931&show=540

More of the difference between the two.

~reading

Ehh that one part of a plausible theory given their 'space tech' but it still feels quite incomplete. I wonder if it will be addressed along the line.

lanfireApr 21, 2013 5:21 PM

Apr 21, 2013 5:18 PM

#148

Akagatari

Offline

Oct 2011

421

The name Rackage sure fits that woman!!

Chamber overpower!! And finally everyone thanks Ledo.
Hearing Ledo saying arigatou is nice too.

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Apr 21, 2013 5:19 PM

#149