Vinland Saga
| I just think his motivations are dumb from a logical and theological point of view. Priest was reading the bible to him everyday, he heard all about free will, original sin and so on and now he believes that god is intentionally making a hell on earth, even tho he is the one spreading the most violence and pain on the continent. He thinks violent vikings are forbidden from heaven for being brutal monsters so he has two options: 1. Trying to make world more peaceful and turn denmark away from its aggressive, destructive culture while redeeming his warriors allowing them to enter heaven. 2. Creating an enormous army, spreading war and misery everywhere and then beating god(?). It makes sense that his warriors like his deluded ideology, but I want to know if later on we will see that he has more rational ideas, he just wants power and makes ridiculous excuses because of it, or is a complete idiot. With what I saw so far of him I am leaning towards second option. |
| Canute want to create paradise on earth just like Thorfinn but in the process he is ready to sacrifice few. |
| He doesn't want to fight God one and one lol. Its a metaphorical statement. |
ZXEAN said: It seems more like he promotes a class of murderers creating a landscape of devastation that looks like hell. If you want to create a paradise for people who love killing people, you just make a hell for everyone else.He doesn't want to fight God one and one lol. Its a metaphorical statement. |
m0rt14k3 said: No his point isn't valid, It's like wanting to create a paradise for serial killers. We weren't shown any reforms, just a path of destruction he leaves behind.Tkit said: I just think his motivations are dumb from a logical and theological point of view. Priest was reading the bible to him everyday, he heard all about free will, original sin and so on and now he believes that god is intentionally making a hell on earth, even tho he is the one spreading the most violence and pain on the continent. He thinks violent vikings are forbidden from heaven for being brutal monsters so he has two options: 1. Trying to make world more peaceful and turn denmark away from its aggressive, destructive culture while redeeming his warriors allowing them to enter heaven. 2. Creating an enormous army, spreading war and misery everywhere and then beating god(?). It makes sense that his warriors like his deluded ideology, but I want to know if later on we will see that he has more rational ideas, he just wants power and makes ridiculous excuses because of it, or is a complete idiot. With what I saw so far of him I am leaning towards second option. Well also u get it wrong when he says "War against God" or something like this he doesn't mean it in literal scene he somewhat means it like a social reform, and his point is also valid about Vikings if u can think it through why he said Vikings need to be freed... |
Tkit said: To solve the original sin that provoked this situation, Canute entrusts himself the mission to create paradise on Earth. There's no point in waiting or looking for salvation. In order to obtain that better world, to help create this true love within people, you have to destroy the foundations of the current society.ZXEAN said: It seems more like he promotes a class of murderers creating a landscape of devastation that looks like hell. If you want to create a paradise for people who love killing people, you just make a hell for everyone else.He doesn't want to fight God one and one lol. Its a metaphorical statement. |
m0rt14k3 said: It got me really concerned when Thorfinn was like "Yo, maybe he is right" thank god Einar was there to spit facts.Well tbh Thorfin seems more delusional/stupid than him, at this point this anime becomes somewhat like a philosophical war where both characters have there different perspective of establishing peace in such such brutal world, tbh now I am more interested to see where the Author wants this story to go, let's see |
| He wants to save the Vikings in order to gain power. He needs power in order to rule such a large country. He wants to use their power as his own. He wants to use them as a weapon to create his own dream land. |
ZXEANJun 10, 2023 8:35 AM
ZXEAN said: You say that, but instead of "destroying the current society" he does what every other conqueror does. He is even worse by decieving himself he does something good. I believe thats the core of his character, a delusional tyrant.Tkit said: To solve the original sin that provoked this situation, Canute entrusts himself the mission to create paradise on Earth. There's no point in waiting or looking for salvation. In order to obtain that better world, to help create this true love within people, you have to destroy the foundations of the current society.It seems more like he promotes a class of murderers creating a landscape of devastation that looks like hell. If you want to create a paradise for people who love killing people, you just make a hell for everyone else. |
RandomPerson9348 said: So he is just delusional and reaching for an unreachable goal while spreading suffering everywhere, I can accept that.You are mistaking his thought process. According to him, Vikings are not denied entry to heaven because they are monsters, but because they are human. Nature is truly good. It has no biases. Nature showcases true love. Thus, it is allowed to be Heaven. Humans aren't truly good. They have biases. Their love is selfish. And thus, they cannot go to Heaven. What he thinks is that this is an impossible game. Humans can never truly reach Heaven, ever. His goal is to create an alternate paradise on Earth. One that is as close to the true thing as possible. To do this, he starts practicing true love. He loves everyone and everything equally. This is why nothing truly has any value to him. Askeladd's death isn't anything big. It's just the death of a soldier who played his part well. Thorfinn means nothing to him. He is just a soldier who once used to protect him. His brother isn't anybody important. He's just a king who is going to create inequality by existing. At the same time, you can see him struggling with this thought process. Killing Askeladd clearly hurts him until Thorkell brings him back. His father's soul still haunts him. Hearing Thorfinn's name instinctively makes him touch the scar. You can see him striving to accept the one thing that keeps him going, while his true nature asks him to stop. TL;DR - Canute's goal is to create paradise on Earth. That means professing true, unselfish love throughout the planet. This can only be achieved if all people are happy and united under a single king in a kingdom where everything and everyone holds equal value. This is his dream. |
Tkit said: Canute is far better than any other kings in that same era. He doesn't promotes war crime and always tries to solves problems by deplomatic manner first. He actively participat in the war with his comrades and doesn't hide like a coward. With his presence the crime rate in war had decreased significantly and even there is overall decrease in war in general.ZXEAN said: You say that, but instead of "destroying the current society" he does what every other conqueror does. He is even worse by decieving himself he does something good. I believe thats the core of his character, a delusional tyrantTo solve the original sin that provoked this situation, Canute entrusts himself the mission to create paradise on Earth. There's no point in waiting or looking for salvation. In order to obtain that better world, to help create this true love within people, you have to destroy the foundations of the current society. |
ZXEAN said: I saw an overall increase in war. Sure he isn't cruel for no reason, but it doesn't change the fact that he is an expansionist warmonger. I think it is telling that on his road towards his unreachable goal we mainly see death, destruction, scheaming and his madness. Being less bad while starting conflict everywhere doesn't change the fact he is still bad.Tkit said: Canute is far better than any other kings in that same era. He doesn't promotes war crime and always tries to solves problems by deplomatic manner first. He actively participat in the war with his comrades and doesn't hide like a coward. With his presence the crime rate in war had decreased significantly and even there is overall decrease in war in general.You say that, but instead of "destroying the current society" he does what every other conqueror does. He is even worse by decieving himself he does something good. I believe thats the core of his character, a delusional tyrant |
UltimateKai said: Absolute rule does not equal with aggressive expansion. He can use his absolute power in better ways and there are historical examples of kings who brought prosperity in their land instead of war.Canute is a king. The thought process might not always be sane but that’s what kingdoms come from |
| The way I see this, Canute's ideal is to unite Vikings under one person through use force and use the large army from obtained through this to enforce order, exactly opposite to that of Thorfinn's ideals. He probably believes that force is necessary to achieve his utopia, something God does not want humans to achieve. This reminded me of Zheng's ideals from Kingdom, they are kinda similar in that aspect. |
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RandomPerson9348 said: I got what you meant my friend, don't worry. You reminded me how he transformed in season one and it makes sense.Tkit said: So he is just delusional and reaching for an unreachable goal while spreading suffering everywhere, I can accept that. Canute's a "the end justifies the means" kinda guy. He spreads misery and war without any pity towards the dead (because that would mean being selfish). This isn't because he doesn't understand what he is doing is wrong. He is 100% aware that he isn't doing good things. Canute isn't a warmonger. He doesn't want them at all. But he needs to start so many of them to end them forever (which will happen once he controls the entire world). Again, as you said, delusional. But he isn't stupid. In fact, far from it. And that mainly comes from the fact that he doesn't find any joy in what he is doing. He is a very well-written, layered and interesting character imo. I love that Yukimura found a way to give a "villain" a classic "control the entire world" motive while still making it have emotional and philosophical depth for the character and the story as a whole. |
Tkit said: He is a great king. You should check out actual history to know his character better. Anyway I think it's useless to argue with you anyway. You are going to repeat same shit over and over againZXEAN said: I saw an overall increase in war. Sure he isn't cruel for no reason, but it doesn't change the fact that he is an expansionist warmonger. I think it is telling that on his road towards his unreachable goal we mainly see death, destruction, scheaming and his madness. Being less bad while starting conflict everywhere doesn't change the fact he is still bad.Canute is far better than any other kings in that same era. He doesn't promotes war crime and always tries to solves problems by deplomatic manner first. He actively participat in the war with his comrades and doesn't hide like a coward. With his presence the crime rate in war had decreased significantly and even there is overall decrease in war in general. |
ZXEAN said: I don't care how he acts historically, I look at him as a character in fiction and I haven't seen much of his greatness in anything other than conquest in this show.Tkit said: He is a great king. You should check out actual history to know his character better. Anyway I think it's useless to argue with you anyway. You are going to repeat same shit over and over againI saw an overall increase in war. Sure he isn't cruel for no reason, but it doesn't change the fact that he is an expansionist warmonger. I think it is telling that on his road towards his unreachable goal we mainly see death, destruction, scheaming and his madness. Being less bad while starting conflict everywhere doesn't change the fact he is still bad. |
droppa121 said: If you are looking at it historically there is plenty of rulers who focused on developing their kingdoms instead of bankrupting it on a massive conquest. Plus Canut is not a typical viking, I think it is fair to say that.Tkit said: It seems more like he promotes a class of murderers creating a landscape of devastation that looks like hell. If you want to create a paradise for people who love killing people, you just make a hell for everyone else. Brother, you're inserting a 2000ac mindset in a 1000ac story + vikings, who literally sought for dying as a warrior as the ultimate honour. This is a piece of fiction, obviously, but a grounded one. Thorfinn is the aberrant one in this reality, not Cnut. |
ghier said: Yeah with this discussion I came to a conclusion that he is delusional about an impossible goal, but certainly not stupid.Tkit said: I just think his motivations are dumb from a logical and theological point of view. Priest was reading the bible to him everyday, he heard all about free will, original sin and so on and now he believes that god is intentionally making a hell on earth, even tho he is the one spreading the most violence and pain on the continent. He thinks violent vikings are forbidden from heaven for being brutal monsters so he has two options: 1. Trying to make world more peaceful and turn denmark away from its aggressive, destructive culture while redeeming his warriors allowing them to enter heaven. 2. Creating an enormous army, spreading war and misery everywhere and then beating god(?). It makes sense that his warriors like his deluded ideology, but I want to know if later on we will see that he has more rational ideas, he just wants power and makes ridiculous excuses because of it, or is a complete idiot. With what I saw so far of him I am leaning towards second option. I don’t think Canute cares about heaven … he’s trying to reject it and create a paradise on earth. That paradise is how he wants to save the Vikings. The thing about politics and statescraft is that ideals alone cannot make change happen. You must deal with political absolutes however dreadful it may be. Imagine Canute trying to spread his ideaology and restrain from using any military might. In this situation it doesn’t work. Englishmen will undoubtably see it as hypocritical given the past 10 years of war his father waged. And he can’t say he got rid of Swen himself to win them over because then the Nordic armies become his enemy. Of course, he could just leave England, but that would mean abandoning his goal of establishing a paradise. Thus, some degree of violence becomes a necessity in his eyes. It’s hypocritical, sure, as that is most definitely not the true love he’s looking for. But Canute certainly isn’t unaware of this nor is he an idiot. |
ghier said: Yeah today we are a bit closer, but certainly not thanks to a world conquest. You need a more subtle approach and a lot more advanced technology than what Canute has.Tkit said: Yeah with this discussion I came to a conclusion that he is delusional about an impossible goal, but certainly not stupid. Eh, it’s certainly impossible to perfectly achieve. Many modern societies are closer to that goal than probably any in our past, but even they still prop themselves up with the suffering of others. They also maintain peace with the threat of nuclear destruction. However, these societies are currently much better than society was in 11th century Europe; I think that is proof enough that things can always get better if people work towards it. Sorry if I’m being preachy haha, just realized that it comes across like that |
droppa121 said: That's fine, I am not saying he is badly written or that I hate that he is a evil conqueror I really like how he is written. I also don't care about what kind of character he was in real life, I care about a story and in this story he isn't a good guy.Tkit said: If you are looking at it historically there is plenty of rulers who focused on developing their kingdoms instead of bankrupting it on a massive conquest. Plus Canut is not a typical viking, I think it is fair to say that. Yeah, but... this manga/anime has fictional drama set in historical events. The real life Cnut wasn't that soft prince, to begin with, you feel me? He was meant to be a king during the England conquering war. This period in time was actually the peak "viking era". All these god questions are the philosophical point of view of the author being inserted in the story. The change from a polytheistic culture to a Christian is real though. |
MunkeeMan said: Maybe, but so far we saw a trail of death and destruction, bankrupted kingdom, unlawful seizing of land and assassination... plus you know, his dream is impossible. If they will show in the future a big benefit from his rule then maybe I will change my opinion, but so far he caused much more suffering than good.Tkit said: It seems more like he promotes a class of murderers creating a landscape of devastation that looks like hell. If you want to create a paradise for people who love killing people, you just make a hell for everyone else. i dont believe thats the point. when he says “save the Vikings” i interpreted that as changing the Vikings and their ways so that they will eventually completely stop what they do (building towards a much more civil world like ours, in comparison at least). A civil world would be what Canute considers paradise (he has outlawed pillaging and dueling) so thats how I came to that conclusion. (Edit: i forgot to mention i am a manga reader so my interpretations have additional reasonings behind my thought process but everything i mentioned so far has been shown in the anime) |
| He pretty much wants to make like a VERY big Yakuza/gang. Because might makes right. Dont linger too much on what he said about "saving the vikings." Its morale speech for his followers. What he means is more of reform/getting them under control. He's clearly taking a pragmatic approach, and yes all these ideologies have cons. |
RobertsahDHDAJun 10, 2023 2:08 PM
| Keep scrolling |
| Canute is a rebel. He'll be drinking & bathing himself in the blood of the mountain of people he killed, in the afterlife. Probably very much enjoy it too. |
| i find it disturbing how many of you have problems fully understanding percpectives that aren't yours. i've seen so many people dunk on every character this season because they didn't understand their percpective. and the thing is, if everyone felt this way about the same character, i would look back and say maybe vinland didn't show case it in the best way. BUT NONE OF YOU AGREE ON THIS. this isn't on the show. canutes goal is to use war, use the cruelty of it, and control it towards creating a paradise. its an act against god, because he is doing evil, for the sake of creating heaven on earth. if you have the entire world beneath your feet, you can control it. he wants that. he wants that control, so he can use it to end war. his goal is paradise. from his percpective, as long as he is in charge thats the final gaol. but he does crule things to reach that gaol. a paradise, but one that is built on agony. |
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Apolygon2 said: I don't understand how you concluded that I am "dunking" on Canute. I was just wondering if his character was ment to be stupid or delusional and after discussing it here I remembered his transformation in season 1 and his motivations. I think he is deranged with unrealistic goals and I think he is competently written.i find it disturbing how many of you have problems fully understanding percpectives that aren't yours. i've seen so many people dunk on every character this season because they didn't understand their percpective. and the thing is, if everyone felt this way about the same character, i would look back and say maybe vinland didn't show case it in the best way. BUT NONE OF YOU AGREE ON THIS. this isn't on the show. canutes goal is to use war, use the cruelty of it, and control it towards creating a paradise. its an act against god, because he is doing evil, for the sake of creating heaven on earth. if you have the entire world beneath your feet, you can control it. he wants that. he wants that control, so he can use it to end war. his goal is paradise. from his percpective, as long as he is in charge thats the final gaol. but he does crule things to reach that gaol. a paradise, but one that is built on agony. |
Tkit said: Apolygon2 said: I don't understand how you concluded that I am "dunking" on Canute. I was just wondering if his character was ment to be stupid or delusional and after discussing it here I remembered his transformation in season 1 and his motivations. I think he is deranged with unrealistic goals and I think he is competently written.i find it disturbing how many of you have problems fully understanding percpectives that aren't yours. i've seen so many people dunk on every character this season because they didn't understand their percpective. and the thing is, if everyone felt this way about the same character, i would look back and say maybe vinland didn't show case it in the best way. BUT NONE OF YOU AGREE ON THIS. this isn't on the show. canutes goal is to use war, use the cruelty of it, and control it towards creating a paradise. its an act against god, because he is doing evil, for the sake of creating heaven on earth. if you have the entire world beneath your feet, you can control it. he wants that. he wants that control, so he can use it to end war. his goal is paradise. from his percpective, as long as he is in charge thats the final gaol. but he does crule things to reach that gaol. a paradise, but one that is built on agony. ok fair enough, sorry for assuming. |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
ghier said: Tkit said: Yeah today we are a bit closer, but certainly not thanks to a world conquest. You need a more subtle approach and a lot more advanced technology than what Canute has. We didn’t really take a subtle approach in most cases tho. America in particular created a “democracy” with a rebellion against the British monarch. The step taken is a bit more subtle in how much closer it is to the ideal, but definitely not subtle in the means to taking that step. Many other countries that get close to that ideal also started with a rebellion of some kind. I would argue the transition in Canute’s case is more subtle than what you typically see in reality … specifically because of how “behind the curtain” it seems to be for the general populace. By subtle I mean countries today mostly compete/dominate other countries with soft power. Pop culture and media for masses, trade deals and investments for states. Your example with us is a reaction to oppression/hard power (and many other factors). Also I wouldn't consider american revolution 'modern day'. |
ghier said: When I say "Yeah today we are a bit closer" I mean that today world peace is unachievable and that was the case even more so in the past. I don't see the nitpicking.Tkit said: By subtle I mean countries today mostly compete/dominate other countries with soft power. Pop culture and media for masses, trade deals and investments for states. Your example with us is a reaction to oppression/hard power (and many other factors). Also I wouldn't consider american revolution 'modern day'. Bro, it’s a step that led to the present day. Changes that leave us with what we have today don’t need to be in the same time period. Seems like you’re just nitpicking to have a winning argument at this point. Not that soft power hasn’t been impactful enough to change things, I just don’t see how you’re negating what I said or demonstrating how the ideal is impossible to achieve in any significant way. |
2abZ said: It is literally impossible for anyone to control whole world in the middle ages, certainly not in a single lifespan. He is spreading misfortune for the sake of impossible goal. Maybe he will in the future stop his conquests and see his develop his kingdom while defending his borders, which is the closest he can get to the paradise. I get that there is good reason behind his actions, they are delusional because they are unachievable. His method brings pain with a very small possibility for better life after that pain.Didn't you see how theỉr world is filled with violence and corruptions? Ain't no way, kings and politicans from other countries will let him create a peaceful world so he had to first bring them down. He want to unite the world, violence is just a more guarantee method that he chose |
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