Attack on Titan
So Eren is a true American, got it.... |
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| The way I view it is that the cycle has to end. I can't imagine building the perfect world, but if you can eradicate something so purely bad and major, you should. In this situation, Paradis most definitely can't achieve the world where everyone is at peace with everyone, but if they can erase racism and make the world 1 nation united by history of oppression, I think they should. Every single person born on Paradis island is innocent. Not only that, but the island is a precious place with precious people to me, the viewer. So the numbers of outside world don't matter to me, the percentage of innocent people matters to me more. 100% of innocent people on Paradis is more than any percent of innocent people in the world. I would even bet it's below 10 This is my position, and I'm not blindly attached to Eren. Furthermore, I think that to waste such a monumental story to once again say the most general thing "oh the cycle is going to continue forever that's just human nature" would be trash |
9cycle  cycle9 |
Lpopo4lyfe said: He hasn’t lost his mind (at least not yet...), if anything his mind is clear on the path he wants to take. You are correct that a lot of fans tend to miss a lot of the themes and messages the story tries to tell, as well as the heart behind the characters. However, Eren’s actions can honestly go both ways. It can feed the hatred the world has towards Eldians or it can provide the foundation for true diplomatic relations to occur after the tragedy wrought in both sides and the elimination of military powers that would have incurred more war. Eren is the “monster” the world has created by irrationally placing every problem they ever had in their history on the Eldians. And they realize that deep down. With regards to Eren, he made his decision after a lot of evaluation. Though what Eren is doing is definitely morally wrong, it is also something he felt he had to do under his circumstances. Eren believes all life is precious upon being born into the world and that every person has the right to freedom, to enjoy the world’s beauty and do as they please, but the rest of the world instead tries to exterminate his entire race like pests for millennia just because of their ancestors’ sins. It’s in character for Eren to do this, he hasn’t lost his mind, he’s just doing what he always does, strive for freedom over his enemies and walls. He said time and time again that if someone tries to steal his freedom, he’ll steal theirs, that he’s born into this world and that freedom is his birthright. That he would destroy all the titans, every last one of them. When Eren saw the sea, all he saw was a false horizon where titans weren’t the real enemy, it was his own fellow humans who were all enjoying themselves while his whole race was caged up, primitive, dying in a corner like cattle. No one had an answer to their world’s dilemma, and to be frank there is no clear cut answer. If there were, then our own world would be a utopia lol. Eren waited for the Scouts to give their perspective but they remained indecisive the past few years, speaking empty idealistic platitudes. Zeke tries to euthanize all Eldians which is everything Eren is against because that prevents people from being born into the world in the first place and ever having freedom. And then Eren spent time in Marley understanding the other side and while he saw their pov, he also saw that they would never change their minds, as seen with Tybur’s speech who ironically speaks similar ideas to Eren himself (because they were born in this world). Because Tybur believes the same thing as Eren, while announcing to the entire world to join together and exterminate all Paradis as devils. They declared war and there was not room for reconciliation. Eren knew there’s nothing but the future he saw. That sealed his decision. There’s also the fact that the future is precisely what Eren wants as it leads to a certain end result he always vowed to accomplish, as we will see with time what that exactly is, and it correlates to what Eren’s definition of freedom. Note that I don’t justify what he is doing, he is not right. But it is a gray area and you can’t just chalk up Eren as insane. He’s still human. He was distraught when Sasha died (as you can see by him doing his signature laugh when he is in the absolute pits of despair just like with Hannes). He was unsettled when Armin called him a slave. And he treated Ymir Fritz with compassion and empathy, seeing her as just an ordinary girl rather than a slave or god. He treated her like a human and gave her a choice while Zeke and the world just enslaved her for millennia like cattle. This is honestly everything I have ever thought about articulating but couldn’t when it comes to Eren and the decisions that he has made!! Absolutely spot on. |
| Given Eren`s choices I side with him on the basis of his goal. If he doesn`t fight, the cycle of discrimination against his kind will never end. The world seems to want to rid themselves of his kind so his choice is bend over as a slave, or win. |
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| If Erwin were still here, he would be with Eren and saying "FUCK EVERYONE, MY BOY" |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Perhaps, this is hell. |
Dark_whatever said: Now here's the thing, MOST OF THE PEOPLE (notice how I didn't generalize) that support Eren and his actions have completely missed the point of the story Isayama is tryna tell, the core element of Attack on Titan's story is the continuous cycle of Hatred. By starting the rumbling Eren is essentially feeding the fire of Hatred and grudges more wood and the fact that he's about to sacrifice billions of innocent lives seeking nothing but peace obviously means the guy has lost his damn mind because before Season 4 he used to beat himself up over every single soul that dies on the battlefield Anywho, there are also people that support him due to them being too attached to the character (me included) personally I don't know who tf I'm siding with at this point because again the guy has clearly lost his mind, the goal he's tryna achieve (Freedom) is admirable but the way he decided to achieve said goal in is the thing I have issues with. I'll most likely stick with him even though his methods are questionable at best lol, anyway what do y'all think? This again. If i had a dime every time someone said that people missed stuff or they didn't understand, i would be a millionaire. No one missed a damn thing. The message that you think the author intended, what the author actually intended and what other individuals will perceive can be completely different. That happens even in simple stories, let alone in a charged sociopolitical one like AOT. The rumbling as an event isn't in a vacuum. It's the culmination of 2000 year's worth of events. Eren being somewhat deranged is just the cherry on top. As to why people support him other than the obvious(he is the main character) i have to say this. Isayama due to lack of ability or just by artistic choice (i think it's the latter) made the story extremely binary, since the compromise/diplomatic options are almost non existent. In this specific scenario Eren's actions are justified. No one will let their people perish for the "betterment" of the world. |
| I saw one guy arguing about Marley starting this and they deserve to be completely rumbled and I couldn't believe that people think like that. This episode does nothing but shows that it was the eldians who did it. So should the eldians perish? No. This is a vicious cycle of hatred born bc of Human selfishness(King Fritz's desire to rule over everyone and oppress everyone else instead of developing things with the help of Titans). Here both sides are perpetrators and Victims. This cycle can't be broken with an act of horrifying violence such as Rumbling. Heck Read Chapter 69 and see just how much AoT's narrative opposes such mindset. I also talked about the proper way to end this cycle here. You can read if you want. Also Eren does not support this action of rumbling everything. Read chapter 106. |
    βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ  |
adnan_ said: I saw one guy arguing about Marley starting this and they deserve to be completely rumbled and I couldn't believe that people think like that. This episode does nothing but shows that it was the eldians who did it. So should the eldians perish? No. This is a vicious cycle of hatred born bc of Human selfishness(King Fritz's desire to rule over everyone and oppress everyone else instead of developing things with the help of Titans). Here both sides are perpetrators and Victims. This cycle can't be broken with an act of horrifying violence such as Rumbling. Heck Read Chapter 69 and see just how much AoT's narrative opposes such mindset. I also talked about the proper way to end this cycle here. You can read if you want. Also Eren does not support this action of rumbling everything. Read chapter 106. Yes this vicious cycle CAN be broken with a horrifying act of violence. Both a full rumbling and the Eldian euthanization plan, do exactly that. Both unethical but they DO offer finality. Sure a new cycle of violence will arise sometime after both scenarios because of human nature, but it will be based on new disputes and wars. Chapter 69 doesn't oppose any mindset, that's just your confirmation bias. If anything it points out that the "miracle" that Uri believes in (of enemies that want to kill each other can become friends) is nothing more than his delusion, it was just what he was a slave to. |
Lpopo4lyfe said: yes. yes. yes. Yes. Yes. YES!!!!He hasn’t lost his mind (at least not yet...), if anything his mind is clear on the path he wants to take. You are correct that a lot of fans tend to miss a lot of the themes and messages the story tries to tell, as well as the heart behind the characters. However, Eren’s actions can honestly go both ways. It can feed the hatred the world has towards Eldians or it can provide the foundation for true diplomatic relations to occur after the tragedy wrought in both sides and the elimination of military powers that would have incurred more war. Eren is the “monster” the world has created by irrationally placing every problem they ever had in their history on the Eldians. And they realize that deep down. With regards to Eren, he made his decision after a lot of evaluation. Though what Eren is doing is definitely morally wrong, it is also something he felt he had to do under his circumstances. Eren believes all life is precious upon being born into the world and that every person has the right to freedom, to enjoy the world’s beauty and do as they please, but the rest of the world instead tries to exterminate his entire race like pests for millennia just because of their ancestors’ sins. It’s in character for Eren to do this, he hasn’t lost his mind, he’s just doing what he always does, strive for freedom over his enemies and walls. He said time and time again that if someone tries to steal his freedom, he’ll steal theirs, that he’s born into this world and that freedom is his birthright. That he would destroy all the titans, every last one of them. When Eren saw the sea, all he saw was a false horizon where titans weren’t the real enemy, it was his own fellow humans who were all enjoying themselves while his whole race was caged up, primitive, dying in a corner like cattle. No one had an answer to their world’s dilemma, and to be frank there is no clear cut answer. If there were, then our own world would be a utopia lol. Eren waited for the Scouts to give their perspective but they remained indecisive the past few years, speaking empty idealistic platitudes. Zeke tries to euthanize all Eldians which is everything Eren is against because that prevents people from being born into the world in the first place and ever having freedom. And then Eren spent time in Marley understanding the other side and while he saw their pov, he also saw that they would never change their minds, as seen with Tybur’s speech who ironically speaks similar ideas to Eren himself (because they were born in this world). Because Tybur believes the same thing as Eren, while announcing to the entire world to join together and exterminate all Paradis as devils. They declared war and there was not room for reconciliation. Eren knew there’s nothing but the future he saw. That sealed his decision. There’s also the fact that the future is precisely what Eren wants as it leads to a certain end result he always vowed to accomplish, as we will see with time what that exactly is, and it correlates to what Eren’s definition of freedom. Note that I don’t justify what he is doing, he is not right. But it is a gray area and you can’t just chalk up Eren as insane. He’s still human. He was distraught when Sasha died (as you can see by him doing his signature laugh when he is in the absolute pits of despair just like with Hannes). He was unsettled when Armin called him a slave. And he treated Ymir Fritz with compassion and empathy, seeing her as just an ordinary girl rather than a slave or god. He treated her like a human and gave her a choice while Zeke and the world just enslaved her for millennia like cattle. I can't wait to see what you're talking about in that 3rd paragraph (from the end). I will frame this quote on my wall. Beautifully worded my friend |
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| Exactly. Alot of people went on the path of "Eren is right, Go Eren Go Eren" without question and "Gabi is horrible, hope she dies". Talks like this, makes me think they are too emature or they truly dont get Attack on Titan. Despite Marley actions, Eren is indeed Justifying Marley and the World fears, proving they were right, that power like this, shouldnt be in the hands of the people of that island. And of course, Marley actions are horrible. But all these paradoxes, all the problems of AOT, can be seen in our world. And thats the point, thesde conflicts dont get resolved with a simplistic world view. Eren in the end, saw no choice, he can be seen as a Ultra Nationalist, kill or be killed, even its the entire world, including billions of innocents. But other way has been seen it could be done, like some of his comrades presented to him. |
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majinale said: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Full rumbling never breaks the cycle of hatred, it just glorifies the method of violence as means to stop hatred when it would never. Paradisians still after erasing every non eldian will continue to believe the non eldians were devil and hence the cycle continues whether the opposite side exists or not. This is the same for euthanasia plan as well. The outer world would forever think paradisian were devils and it was good they perished. adnan_ said: I saw one guy arguing about Marley starting this and they deserve to be completely rumbled and I couldn't believe that people think like that. This episode does nothing but shows that it was the eldians who did it. So should the eldians perish? No. This is a vicious cycle of hatred born bc of Human selfishness(King Fritz's desire to rule over everyone and oppress everyone else instead of developing things with the help of Titans). Here both sides are perpetrators and Victims. This cycle can't be broken with an act of horrifying violence such as Rumbling. Heck Read Chapter 69 and see just how much AoT's narrative opposes such mindset. I also talked about the proper way to end this cycle here. You can read if you want. Also Eren does not support this action of rumbling everything. Read chapter 106. Yes this vicious cycle CAN be broken with a horrifying act of violence. Both a full rumbling and the Eldian euthanization plan, do exactly that. Both unethical but they DO offer finality. Sure a new cycle of violence will arise sometime after both scenarios because of human nature, but it will be based on new disputes and wars. Chapter 69 doesn't oppose any mindset, that's just your confirmation bias. If anything it points out that the "miracle" that Uri believes in (of enemies that want to kill each other can become friends) is nothing more than his delusion, it was just what he was a slave to. Children of the forest theme explicitly state that we need to keep our future gen. away from this mindset. They have to understand that the world is not black and white and understand the other side just like gabi and Nile with Falco. Ch. 69 is literally two opposing ethnic which is Ackermann and royal blood coming in terms with mutual understanding not with violence even when Ackermann were persecuted and you know by ur logic it makes sense for Kenny to kill uri to stop the hatred. Its not him being delusional. Literally Kenny and Uri dynamic is a proof of his "miracle". Lol I dunno how u misunderstand that chapter/episode SO HARD. |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
adnan_ said: majinale said: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Full rumbling never breaks the cycle of hatred, it just glorifies the method of violence as means to stop hatred when it would never. Paradisians still after erasing every non eldian will continue to believe the non eldians were devil and hence the cycle continues whether the opposite side exists or not. This is the same for euthanasia plan as well. The outer world would forever think paradisian were devils and it was good they perished. Yes this vicious cycle CAN be broken with a horrifying act of violence. Both a full rumbling and the Eldian euthanization plan, do exactly that. Both unethical but they DO offer finality. Sure a new cycle of violence will arise sometime after both scenarios because of human nature, but it will be based on new disputes and wars. Chapter 69 doesn't oppose any mindset, that's just your confirmation bias. If anything it points out that the "miracle" that Uri believes in (of enemies that want to kill each other can become friends) is nothing more than his delusion, it was just what he was a slave to. Children of the forest theme explicitly state that we need to keep our future gen. away from this mindset. They have to understand that the world is not black and white and understand the other side just like gabi and Nile with Falco. Ch. 69 is literally two opposing ethnic which is Ackermann and royal blood coming in terms with mutual understanding not with violence even when Ackermann were persecuted and you know by ur logic it makes sense for Kenny to kill uri to stop the hatred. Its not him being delusional. Literally Kenny and Uri dynamic is a proof of his "miracle". Lol I dunno how u misunderstand that chapter/episode SO HARD. It's rare to find people like you here, well said. |
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Fax001s said: Thanks I have seen many people praise AoT for its themes and nuance but for a story like AoT that deals with many sensitive issues. It's very important to keep the themes in mind and how they flow in the narrative. adnan_ said: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Full rumbling never breaks the cycle of hatred, it just glorifies the method of violence as means to stop hatred when it would never. Paradisians still after erasing every non eldian will continue to believe the non eldians were devil and hence the cycle continues whether the opposite side exists or not. This is the same for euthanasia plan as well. The outer world would forever think paradisian were devils and it was good they perished. Children of the forest theme explicitly state that we need to keep our future gen. away from this mindset. They have to understand that the world is not black and white and understand the other side just like gabi and Nile with Falco. Ch. 69 is literally two opposing ethnic which is Ackermann and royal blood coming in terms with mutual understanding not with violence even when Ackermann were persecuted and you know by ur logic it makes sense for Kenny to kill uri to stop the hatred. Its not him being delusional. Literally Kenny and Uri dynamic is a proof of his "miracle". Lol I dunno how u misunderstand that chapter/episode SO HARD. It's rare to find people like you here, well said. One twisted misinterpretation can lead to the ruination of the whole idea AoT tried portraying. |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
adnan_ said: majinale said: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Full rumbling never breaks the cycle of hatred, it just glorifies the method of violence as means to stop hatred when it would never. Paradisians still after erasing every non eldian will continue to believe the non eldians were devil and hence the cycle continues whether the opposite side exists or not. This is the same for euthanasia plan as well. The outer world would forever think paradisian were devils and it was good they perished. Yes this vicious cycle CAN be broken with a horrifying act of violence. Both a full rumbling and the Eldian euthanization plan, do exactly that. Both unethical but they DO offer finality. Sure a new cycle of violence will arise sometime after both scenarios because of human nature, but it will be based on new disputes and wars. Chapter 69 doesn't oppose any mindset, that's just your confirmation bias. If anything it points out that the "miracle" that Uri believes in (of enemies that want to kill each other can become friends) is nothing more than his delusion, it was just what he was a slave to. Children of the forest theme explicitly state that we need to keep our future gen. away from this mindset. They have to understand that the world is not black and white and understand the other side just like gabi and Nile with Falco. Ch. 69 is literally two opposing ethnic which is Ackermann and royal blood coming in terms with mutual understanding not with violence even when Ackermann were persecuted and you know by ur logic it makes sense for Kenny to kill uri to stop the hatred. Its not him being delusional. Literally Kenny and Uri dynamic is a proof of his "miracle". Lol I dunno how u misunderstand that chapter/episode SO HARD. In the real world it's impossible for one side of a conflict to disappear entirely. This story is a fantasy with supernatural phenomena that make that possible. It's an extreme thought experiment actually. Once Eldians or the world disappear the conflict is over and the cycle is broken. Glorification of the violence is what the victors do when they write their history books, both in the real world and in AOT. I misunderstood nothing. People's perceptions of reality and events, can differ greatly based on various factors. Once you understand that, you will stop LOLing. |
| Eren only wants to protect Paradis, for that he chose the hard path of destroying the enemy before the enemy could destroy Paradis, sure, we get some collateral damage but the world also killed Eldian civilians for hundreds of years |
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majinale said: Never said conflicts can disappear FOREVER or ENTIRELY but Mutual understanding is the only way to remove or almost break that cycle of hatred while violence does not do a single thing in ACTUALLY breaking the cycle. AoT is a story grounded in realism with Supernatural stuff in it. That's why Things like Renouncing of war and stuff do not seem illogical from IRL POV too.adnan_ said: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Full rumbling never breaks the cycle of hatred, it just glorifies the method of violence as means to stop hatred when it would never. Paradisians still after erasing every non eldian will continue to believe the non eldians were devil and hence the cycle continues whether the opposite side exists or not. This is the same for euthanasia plan as well. The outer world would forever think paradisian were devils and it was good they perished. Children of the forest theme explicitly state that we need to keep our future gen. away from this mindset. They have to understand that the world is not black and white and understand the other side just like gabi and Nile with Falco. Ch. 69 is literally two opposing ethnic which is Ackermann and royal blood coming in terms with mutual understanding not with violence even when Ackermann were persecuted and you know by ur logic it makes sense for Kenny to kill uri to stop the hatred. Its not him being delusional. Literally Kenny and Uri dynamic is a proof of his "miracle". Lol I dunno how u misunderstand that chapter/episode SO HARD. In the real world it's impossible for one side of a conflict to disappear entirely. This story is a fantasy with supernatural phenomena that make that possible. It's an extreme thought experiment actually. Once Eldians or the world disappear the conflict is over and the cycle is broken. Glorification of the violence is what the victors do when they write their history books, both in the real world and in AOT. I misunderstood nothing. People's perceptions of reality and events, can differ greatly based on various factors. Once you understand that, you will stop LOLing. And I already explained how the erasure of one side does not break the cycle AT ALL bc it's the mindset that is to blame. Of course and the best course of action is to not take the violent mean so that no side can glorify violence. The point AoT tries to make it up to now is that Violence is never the way to or means to approach the cycle of hatred or to break it. And Mr. majinale, The term misinterpretation exists for a reason. You said Karl fritz was delusional while his own story was the supporting basis of the "miracle" he believed in which makes your "interpretation" wrong Lol. |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
adnan_ said: majinale said: Never said conflicts can disappear FOREVER or ENTIRELY but Mutual understanding is the only way to remove or almost break that cycle of hatred while violence does not do a single thing in ACTUALLY breaking the cycle. AoT is a story grounded in realism with Supernatural stuff in it. That's why Things like Renouncing of war and stuff do not seem illogical from IRL POV too.In the real world it's impossible for one side of a conflict to disappear entirely. This story is a fantasy with supernatural phenomena that make that possible. It's an extreme thought experiment actually. Once Eldians or the world disappear the conflict is over and the cycle is broken. Glorification of the violence is what the victors do when they write their history books, both in the real world and in AOT. I misunderstood nothing. People's perceptions of reality and events, can differ greatly based on various factors. Once you understand that, you will stop LOLing. And I already explained how the erasure of one side does not break the cycle AT ALL bc it's the mindset that is to blame. Of course and the best course of action is to not take the violent mean so that no side can glorify violence. The point AoT tries to make it up to now is that Violence is never the way to or means to approach the cycle of hatred or to break it. And Mr. majinale, The term misinterpretation exists for a reason. You said Karl fritz was delusional while his own story was the supporting basis of the "miracle" he believed in which makes your "interpretation" wrong Lol. If mutual understanding were a possibility in the world of SnK then we wouldnt have AoT, you cant have mutual understanding when one of the parties can transform into monsters. The story cant be solved without genocide, even if the story tries to tell you otherwise by the common sense of its themes, it is dettached just by the pure nature of how the relationships between parties in AoT work. If the story didnt derive into rumbling or euthanasia, then you would need to think how people can accept a group of people that can easily kill them in an instant, a group of people that used its own power to dominate the world and can do it again if there is a strong political movement that gives them an argument to do so. That is why AoT is double-sided, you get anti-fascism thoughts by the messages and themes, but arguments in favour of fascism just by how things are, by the nuances of the narrative, what is not directly told, because the eldians nature supports their extermination, because people in real life cant transform into mutants and conspire against the world as a race to dominate the others, even if some groups in the past tried to make a narrative like that (Any genocide ever), but they can in AoT in the form of eldians, so genocide is justified, any other route is just a stupid parallel to the real world that doesnt work. And as I said before, if AoT didnt have this sort of message that logically serves to genocide, then people wouldnt support characters like Eren unironically. He is meant to be the villain, he is portrayed as the villain, his deeds are obviously wrong, but people like him because the story failed at making him a villain just by the virtue of how the world was constructed. You can read it how Isayama wanted it to be read, or you can read how it is, that is why the execution of AoT is muddy |
Gween_Gween said: Sorry man I am not gonna argue with you. You seem too stubborn in your stance. adnan_ said: Never said conflicts can disappear FOREVER or ENTIRELY but Mutual understanding is the only way to remove or almost break that cycle of hatred while violence does not do a single thing in ACTUALLY breaking the cycle. AoT is a story grounded in realism with Supernatural stuff in it. That's why Things like Renouncing of war and stuff do not seem illogical from IRL POV too. And I already explained how the erasure of one side does not break the cycle AT ALL bc it's the mindset that is to blame. Of course and the best course of action is to not take the violent mean so that no side can glorify violence. The point AoT tries to make it up to now is that Violence is never the way to or means to approach the cycle of hatred or to break it. And Mr. majinale, The term misinterpretation exists for a reason. You said Karl fritz was delusional while his own story was the supporting basis of the "miracle" he believed in which makes your "interpretation" wrong Lol. If mutual understanding were a possibility in the world of SnK then we wouldnt have AoT, you cant have mutual understanding when one of the parties can transform into monsters. The story cant be solved without genocide, even if the story tries to tell you otherwise by the common sense of its themes, it is dettached just by the pure nature of how the relationships between parties in AoT work. If the story didnt derive into rumbling or euthanasia, then you would need to think how people can accept a group of people that can easily kill them in an instant, a group of people that used its own power to dominate the world and can do it again if there is a strong political movement that gives them an argument to do so. That is why AoT is double-sided, you get anti-fascism thoughts by the messages and themes, but arguments in favour of fascism just by how things are, by the nuances of the narrative, what is not directly told, because the eldians nature supports their extermination, because people in real life cant transform into mutants and conspire against the world as a race to dominate the others, even if some groups in the past tried to make a narrative like that (Any genocide ever), but they can in AoT in the form of eldians, so genocide is justified, any other route is just a stupid parallel to the real world that doesnt work. And as I said before, if AoT didnt have this sort of message that logically serves to genocide, then people wouldnt support characters like Eren unironically. He is meant to be the villain, he is portrayed as the villain, his deeds are obviously wrong, but people like him because the story failed at making him a villain just by the virtue of how the world was constructed. You can read it how Isayama wanted it to be read, or you can read how it is, that is why the execution of AoT is muddy Would just say like the person I quoted he purposefully misinterpreted Karl fritz and his character which was before Pre-timeskip. If I want I can twist Berserk as a story about r*pe, Monster as a story about Endorsing murder bc all humans are same in death, Eva too. Just bc some people can conveniently twist the narrative to support the side they want when Marley arc clearly establishes you are not supposed to take sides then I am sorry I can't argue any further. By this logic every single fiction media's execution is muddy. About accepting A group of people it was literally established that Hange wanted diplomacy but was stopped by hizuru and Paradis just wanted to rumble the military as a defense which every country does which was blocked by Eren bc he can't let Historia die. SO yeah the story gives plenty of alternatives but people don't focus on such and it's not a flaw in the narrative. Eren literally says all they need is time, not Yo let's rumble the whole world LET'S GOOOOO. If you want you can reply bc I won't. I don't enjoy discussions with you. |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
adnan_ said: The point AoT tries to make it up to now is that Violence is never the way to or means to approach the cycle of hatred or to break it. That assessment is based in a normal scenario, in which violence generates hatred (specifically people that are affected in some way from the violence hate you back). As i argued in the previous post, If every one of the other side of the conflict is gone, there is no one left to hate you back. It's impossible to happen in a realistic setting unless supernatural phenomena are involved hence i called it a thought experiment. adnan_ said: And Mr. majinale, The term misinterpretation exists for a reason. You said Karl fritz was delusional while his own story was the supporting basis of the "miracle" he believed in which makes your "interpretation" wrong Lol. Uri / King Fritz was definitely delusional. Knowing that violence is an inevitability yet clinging to his hope of the miracle happening again. Violence was even the reason Uri and Kenny became friends in the first place, he just overwhelmed him with absolute power. His little paradise of ignorance within the walls was peak delusion. |
majinaleFeb 8, 2022 5:35 AM
majinale said: Dude you do know that one side erasing from existence does not break the cycle right? It's the mindset that needs to be broken. Even if no one is there to hate you back. The cycle of hatred still continues and can evolve into another cycle while mutual understanding erases the problem from its stem. If the mindset is fresh and open then the cycle can't be passed down. Mr. Braus is the reason for Gabi's change bc he didn't let the cycle of hatred pass down which in turn led to Gabi's realization.adnan_ said: The point AoT tries to make it up to now is that Violence is never the way to or means to approach the cycle of hatred or to break it. That assessment is based in a normal scenario, in which violence generates hatred (specifically people that are affected in some way from the violence hate you back). As i argued in the previous post, If every one of the other side of the conflict is gone, there is no one left to hate you back. It's impossible to happen in a realistic setting unless supernatural phenomena are involved hence i called it a thought experiment. adnan_ said: And Mr. majinale, The term misinterpretation exists for a reason. You said Karl fritz was delusional while his own story was the supporting basis of the "miracle" he believed in which makes your "interpretation" wrong Lol. Uri / King Fritz was definitely delusional. Knowing that violence is an inevitability yet clinging to his hope of the miracle happening again. Violence was even the reason Uri and Kenny became friends in the first place, he just overwhelmed him with absolute power. His little paradise of ignorance within the walls was peak delusion. What? No? It was Uri simply buying time for dialogue lol. And I don't understand why it can't when Uri and Kenny's event parallels so much to the Eldian-Non Eldian problem. He knew conflict is inevitable but he never said that violence is not inevitable. He believed in it happening bc of what he himself experienced hence setting the narrative of AoT towards mutual understanding. Also, remember what were Marco's last words? That also supports it. Mr. Braus' words. Eren's ideology of just buying more time in Marley flashback or Chapter 106. to recap: 1. The Ackermans are persecuted because the royal family fears them and what they could do because they can't be controlled, not because they are actively attacking them 2. In a desperate bid to protect the next generation, the Ackerman head offered his own life in exchange (only to have the persecution continue) and the older members chose not to pass on the knowledge of why the persecution is happening, leading to the younger members being clueless as to why the Ackermans have been targeted (but lack of knowledge doesn't protect anyone either) 3. By ~829, the Ackerman family has been almost entirely wiped out, the few living members forced into hiding and/or living in poverty due to an old conflict none of them were alive for or know the details on; Kenny, Kuchel, Levi, all their lives are heavily impacted by this conflict that they don't even know about-
4. Kenny takes it upon himself to end it by going after the king, the one who has inherited this conflict from the other side, Uri, and has descended from the people who decided to persecute the Ackermans and is responsible for the horrible conditions his family is still living in Does this sound familiar? It should because it mirrors the plight of Elidians. No one alive knows the truth, it's all inherited conflict, Elidians are persecuted and forced into horrible living conditions entirely due to their bloodline all over. The truth is hidden from the people of the Walls and they suffer tragedies, like Kenny and Levi and Kuchel, for a conflict they don't even understand- Levi lives in horrible conditions Underground because he's an Ackerman even though he doesn't know it, much like the people of Paradis forced to live within the Walls without knowing that it's because they're Subjects of Ymir (and what that means). Moreover, in response to this conflict, more conflict is created- culminating in the Rumbling. How the Ackerman Persecution Ends Which is why how the Ackerman persecution ends is so crucial for the story and sets up the themes/conflict resolution that the story wants to push. Kenny tries to kill Uri, but he fails and is overpowered. Uri has Kenny dead to rights, he won that conflict- something Kenny acknowledges. Rod is screaming for Uri to kill him because they can't control him, he's a threat and must be taken care of. As Kenny says, "Violence was all I ever had, but at the moment, it failed me." Uri is in full control. And what does Uri do? He acknowledges Kenny's pain, his justifications, and puts himself at Kenny's mercy. And Kenny, someone who has every reason to hate Uri, every reason to think he should end it by killing Uri, someone who has used violence to combat all his problems his whole life, is moved by this act of kindness. And Uri is doing this at great potential cost, too- think of what would happen if Kenny shot him there. The Reiss family- and possibly Paradis- would lose the Founding Titan. Uri has all the power and would benefit in every way from killing Kenny because of the threat he poses and is taking a huge risk to do this and knowingly put himself at Kenny's mercy. But he still does it. And it pays off in spades for Uri. Kenny becomes his personal bodyguard and close friend. Kenny also ends the persecution this way since Uri is king and stops it- if he'd killed him, who's to say the next ruler wouldn't continue it out of spite because of Kenny's actions? It'd just continue that cycle of hatred. Only through forgiveness, understanding, and compassion did the Ackerman persecution of a hundred years end. Uri calls this out to Kenny: Kenny says if Uri hadn't stopped him, they wouldn't have become friends, they wouldn't have had that possibility because otherwise Kenny would have killed him when he first tried. So it's not just compassion/empathy, it's about taking the time when you have the upper hand to open a dialogue and actually discuss things, explain your side and listen. Communication is the key part of how the story presents the ability to solve these conflicts. Which is highlighted many ways, including with Marco's last words: Of course, his actions were one of an ignorant where he chose to fly away but his ideology definitely wasn't and AoT just proves it more and more. |
CamelBowFeb 8, 2022 5:51 AM
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
Gween_Gween said: adnan_ said: Never said conflicts can disappear FOREVER or ENTIRELY but Mutual understanding is the only way to remove or almost break that cycle of hatred while violence does not do a single thing in ACTUALLY breaking the cycle. AoT is a story grounded in realism with Supernatural stuff in it. That's why Things like Renouncing of war and stuff do not seem illogical from IRL POV too. And I already explained how the erasure of one side does not break the cycle AT ALL bc it's the mindset that is to blame. Of course and the best course of action is to not take the violent mean so that no side can glorify violence. The point AoT tries to make it up to now is that Violence is never the way to or means to approach the cycle of hatred or to break it. And Mr. majinale, The term misinterpretation exists for a reason. You said Karl fritz was delusional while his own story was the supporting basis of the "miracle" he believed in which makes your "interpretation" wrong Lol. If mutual understanding were a possibility in the world of SnK then we wouldnt have AoT, you cant have mutual understanding when one of the parties can transform into monsters. The story cant be solved without genocide, even if the story tries to tell you otherwise by the common sense of its themes, it is dettached just by the pure nature of how the relationships between parties in AoT work. If the story didnt derive into rumbling or euthanasia, then you would need to think how people can accept a group of people that can easily kill them in an instant, a group of people that used its own power to dominate the world and can do it again if there is a strong political movement that gives them an argument to do so. That is why AoT is double-sided, you get anti-fascism thoughts by the messages and themes, but arguments in favour of fascism just by how things are, by the nuances of the narrative, what is not directly told, because the eldians nature supports their extermination, because people in real life cant transform into mutants and conspire against the world as a race to dominate the others, even if some groups in the past tried to make a narrative like that (Any genocide ever), but they can in AoT in the form of eldians, so genocide is justified, any other route is just a stupid parallel to the real world that doesnt work. And as I said before, if AoT didnt have this sort of message that logically serves to genocide, then people wouldnt support characters like Eren unironically. He is meant to be the villain, he is portrayed as the villain, his deeds are obviously wrong, but people like him because the story failed at making him a villain just by the virtue of how the world was constructed. You can read it how Isayama wanted it to be read, or you can read how it is, that is why the execution of AoT is muddy Couldn't have said it better. |
Of course you dont enjoy discussions with me, you can't even grasp that I'm not talking about what is directly told to you by the story but the consequences of how the story is constructed, so you cant bully me into a corner with your extensive knowledge of every single dialogue and theme of AoT, your hours and hours of studying a worthless anime, because I dont care about that. Keep discussing with people without reading comprehension, it gives some gratification About accepting A group of people it was literally established that Hange wanted diplomacy but was stopped by hizuru and Paradis just wanted to rumble the military as a defense which every country yeah that would have worked really well in a world where people couldnt just bomb a city in an instant unilaterally, as I said, there is a mix between what works irl and what works in AoT, it is muddy |
Gween_Gween said: Crazy how I have only watched every episode not more than onceπ€©. I don't enjoy discussions with you because you can't see the holes in your criticism. Anything that I got out as consequence is Rumbling is worst and even the person who is doing it does not agree. Twisting narratives of any show is possible and AOT turns out to be pretty popular hence prone to more such cases. Do yourself a favor and wander the fandom of LOTR or GOT. LOTR is full of white supremacist when LOTR has characters resembling other ethnics so Ig LOTR's execution is "muddy"Of course you dont enjoy discussions with me, you can't even grasp that I'm not talking about what is directly told to you by the story but the consequences of how the story is constructed, so you cant bully me into a corner with your extensive knowledge of every single dialogue and theme of AoT, your hours and hours of studying a worthless anime, because I dont care about that. Keep discussing with people without reading comprehension, it gives some gratification About accepting A group of people it was literally established that Hange wanted diplomacy but was stopped by hizuru and Paradis just wanted to rumble the military as a defense which every country yeah that would have worked really well in a world where people couldnt just bomb a city in an instant unilaterally, as I said, there is a mix between what works irl and what works in AoT, it is muddy And no it's not muddy. These plans were given complete green signal. SO yeah |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
adnan_ said: Gween_Gween said: Crazy how I have only watched every episode not more than onceπ€©. I don't enjoy discussions with you because you can't see the holes in your criticism. Anything that I got out as consequence is Rumbling is worst and even the person who is doing it does not agree. Twisting narratives of any show is possible and AOT turns out to be pretty popular hence prone to more such cases. Do yourself a favor and wander the fandom of LOTR or GOT. LOTR is full of white supremacist when LOTR has characters resembling other ethnics so Ig LOTR's execution is "muddy"Of course you dont enjoy discussions with me, you can't even grasp that I'm not talking about what is directly told to you by the story but the consequences of how the story is constructed, so you cant bully me into a corner with your extensive knowledge of every single dialogue and theme of AoT, your hours and hours of studying a worthless anime, because I dont care about that. Keep discussing with people without reading comprehension, it gives some gratification yeah that would have worked really well in a world where people couldnt just bomb a city in an instant unilaterally, as I said, there is a mix between what works irl and what works in AoT, it is muddy And no it's not muddy. These plans were given complete green signal. SO yeah Are you capable of telling me how you would make the world not hate eldians when a single nationalist figure could create a catastrophe? Without the knowledge of the ending, of course. A solution that doesnt involve genocide is mass surveillance and restriction of freedom, but that wouldnt break the edgy cycle of hatred, right? |
Gween_Gween said: By going and actually showing what Paradisians are and what they truly want. What Willy did was propaganda to focus all the hate on Paradisians with whom the world have never interacted before. Like I said Hange's plan was literally plausible. It was Hizuru who blocked it. Hizuru if co-operated with Paradis to make other connections can easily overcome the "cycle of hatred", since now instead of propaganda, open discourse is involved where both sides want to know the actual truth since their interest is involved. And keep in mind there were many nations who would happily be willing to aid paradis like Yelena and Onyankopon's nations.adnan_ said: Crazy how I have only watched every episode not more than onceπ€©. I don't enjoy discussions with you because you can't see the holes in your criticism. Anything that I got out as consequence is Rumbling is worst and even the person who is doing it does not agree. Twisting narratives of any show is possible and AOT turns out to be pretty popular hence prone to more such cases. Do yourself a favor and wander the fandom of LOTR or GOT. LOTR is full of white supremacist when LOTR has characters resembling other ethnics so Ig LOTR's execution is "muddy" And no it's not muddy. These plans were given complete green signal. SO yeah Are you capable of telling me how you would make the world not hate eldians when a single nationalist figure could create a catastrophe? Without the knowledge of the ending, of course. A solution that doesnt involve genocide is mass surveillance and restriction of freedom, but that wouldnt break the edgy cycle of hatred, right? Here you have a solution lol |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
adnan_ said: Gween_Gween said: By going and actually showing what Paradisians are and what they truly want. What Willy did was propaganda to focus all the hate on Paradisians with whom the world have never interacted before. Like I said Hange's plan was literally plausible. It was Hizuru who blocked it. Hizuru if co-operated with Paradis to make other connections can easily overcome the "cycle of hatred", since now instead of propaganda, open discourse is involved where both sides want to know the actual truth since their interest is involved. And keep in mind there were many nations who would happily be willing to aid paradis like Yelena and Onyankopon's nations.Are you capable of telling me how you would make the world not hate eldians when a single nationalist figure could create a catastrophe? Without the knowledge of the ending, of course. A solution that doesnt involve genocide is mass surveillance and restriction of freedom, but that wouldnt break the edgy cycle of hatred, right? Here you have a solution lol A plan is not plausible if one of the parties doesnt agree with it, right? That is the complexity of how the world works. Did you happen to be alive in the 2000s? Just one lie was necessary to destabilize an entire region from the perspective of the biggest superpower, and I'm not even talking abut an extreme heinous act (Iraq war, to be clear). Now, imagine if the ideas that we employ on this world to justify war and racism are actually true ("They are a threat to peace", "We cant control their capability of doing damage", "They are behind our misery"), how would any diplomatic route work? The situation requires necessarily a negotation of freedom, because it is a completely different scenario than the one of our world. We have freedom because we are all somehow equal, if one group of people is not equal then to balance the power between those two you need subjugation, and subjugation creates desires of liberation, and if the chains are too strong you need violence to destroy them. That is why the philosophy behind authoritarianism works in AoT, because you need a strong entity to overcome the threat, from both sides. At that point you need to choose sides, to atone the sins or to eliminate those that force them to feel like sinners |
adnan_ said: I don't know if you read the manga or not so I'll limit what I say to make sure that I don't spoil you, but first I wanna address the bolded part:majinale said: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Full rumbling never breaks the cycle of hatred, it just glorifies the method of violence as means to stop hatred when it would never. Paradisians still after erasing every non eldian will continue to believe the non eldians were devil and hence the cycle continues whether the opposite side exists or not. This is the same for euthanasia plan as well. The outer world would forever think paradisian were devils and it was good they perished. Yes this vicious cycle CAN be broken with a horrifying act of violence. Both a full rumbling and the Eldian euthanization plan, do exactly that. Both unethical but they DO offer finality. Sure a new cycle of violence will arise sometime after both scenarios because of human nature, but it will be based on new disputes and wars. Chapter 69 doesn't oppose any mindset, that's just your confirmation bias. If anything it points out that the "miracle" that Uri believes in (of enemies that want to kill each other can become friends) is nothing more than his delusion, it was just what he was a slave to. Children of the forest theme explicitly state that we need to keep our future gen. away from this mindset. They have to understand that the world is not black and white and understand the other side just like gabi and Nile with Falco. Ch. 69 is literally two opposing ethnic which is Ackermann and royal blood coming in terms with mutual understanding not with violence even when Ackermann were persecuted and you know by ur logic it makes sense for Kenny to kill uri to stop the hatred. Its not him being delusional. Literally Kenny and Uri dynamic is a proof of his "miracle". Lol I dunno how u misunderstand that chapter/episode SO HARD. From a real world/moral take on things, I agree that violence is never the answer when it comes to trying to end a cycle of hatred, however Attack on Titan is and always has been a story whereas a direction of finality such as this (The complete eradication or silencing of the other side) is literally the only way for this cycle to end (Great characters like Erwin all understood this hence why he so readily claimed the title of Devil). A lot of you misinterpret themes like this solely due to the fact that you guys believe that there will always be a morally correct outcome for everything when in actuality, Attack on Titan has always preached that this mindset is solely an morally optimistic and naive idealology The other thing you say here is that even if every non-eldian is gone, the cycle will continue..... WHAT CYCLE LOL?????? If all of my enemies are gone, why am I perpetuating a cycle of hatred for people who no longer exist lol? But regardless of that, I feel like your personal headcanon/desire to have a peaceful ending where everyone can come together and break bread is clouding what you say, because even in our real world, a notion like this is impossible. Yes we can be civil and not kill each other, but that mindset and mentality that certain countries (I'm not gonna name any of them just in case anybody from those places on these forums gets offended) can very well go and do heinous shit whenever they want to because they have certain persons in positions of power who we all wouldn't put it past them to actually doing these things one day if they feel like they need to do it whether or not its provoked or unprovoked - this view will always remain in our minds and we as human beings are simply just hoping for the best every day because at this point, that's all we can do lol As for the rest of your post, it just goes on to further preach this ideal that you so desperately want to be the case because yes, Kenny and Ur did once dream of mutual understanding being the way to go, but they both died (And lived) knowing that this is simply a pipe dream....And ESPECIALLY in this world lol |
TokoyaFeb 8, 2022 7:02 AM
Gween_Gween said: No one here needs to be subjugated tho. HIzuru aided Paradis even after knowing their stance against Paradis and Paradis formed strong bonds with them. The same will happen with other nations and what I said in my previous reply. Titans are now becoming outdated. The world is developing and titans are becoming useless. So there's no subjugation.adnan_ said: By going and actually showing what Paradisians are and what they truly want. What Willy did was propaganda to focus all the hate on Paradisians with whom the world have never interacted before. Like I said Hange's plan was literally plausible. It was Hizuru who blocked it. Hizuru if co-operated with Paradis to make other connections can easily overcome the "cycle of hatred", since now instead of propaganda, open discourse is involved where both sides want to know the actual truth since their interest is involved. And keep in mind there were many nations who would happily be willing to aid paradis like Yelena and Onyankopon's nations. Here you have a solution lol A plan is not plausible if one of the parties doesnt agree with it, right? That is the complexity of how the world works. Did you happen to be alive in the 2000s? Just one lie was necessary to destabilize an entire region from the perspective of the biggest superpower, and I'm not even talking abut an extreme heinous act (Iraq war, to be clear). Now, imagine if the ideas that we employ on this world to justify war and racism are actually true ("They are a threat to peace", "We cant control their capability of doing damage", "They are behind our misery"), how would any diplomatic route work? The situation requires necessarily a negotation of freedom, because it is a completely different scenario than the one of our world. We have freedom because we are all somehow equal, if one group of people is not equal then to balance the power between those two you need subjugation, and subjugation creates desires of liberation, and if the chains are too strong you need violence to destroy them. That is why the philosophy behind authoritarianism works in AoT, because you need a strong entity to overcome the threat, from both sides. At that point you need to choose sides, to atone the sins or to eliminate those that force them to feel like sinners The root of the problem is mindset and propaganda which Hizuru didn't have and hence formed bonds with Paradis. So your last sentence is absolutely NOT true |
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ You're going to be all right. You just stumbled over a stone in the road. It means nothing. Your goal lies far beyond this. Doesn't it? I'm sure you'll overcome this. You'll walk again... soon. βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ |
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