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Aug 14, 2016 12:11 PM
#1
Ok, so I am starting the second season of Fate/Zero and at the same time, I'm reading the visual novel. I have a doubt about the heroic spirits. From what I understood, each master is capable of summoning one servant of one of the seven classes (Archer, Saber, Rider, etc). My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW? For example, does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"? In the case of Archer whose appearance is completely different is he Gilgamesh or is it someone else from the same class? |
Aug 14, 2016 12:15 PM
#2
Saber is the same,Gilgamesh is archer from Fate/zero and archer from UBW is another guy. |
Aug 14, 2016 12:24 PM
#3
Destinesia said: My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW? For example, does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"? Yes same and she remembers what happened. |
Aug 14, 2016 12:26 PM
#4
LeWeebJames said: Saber is the same,Gilgamesh is archer from Fate/zero and archer from UBW is another guy. And what about Lancer and the others? Also, why do some of them get summoned again while others not? |
Aug 14, 2016 12:27 PM
#5
All different except for Saber and Gilgamesh. White haired Archer is different from Gil. Also True Assassin and Kirei's assassin might be the same |
"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Aug 14, 2016 12:30 PM
#6
Destinesia said: And what about Lancer and the others? Also, why do some of them get summoned again while others not? You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned. |
Aug 14, 2016 12:33 PM
#7
Kaneki_Haise said: You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned. Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer |
Aug 14, 2016 12:38 PM
#8
FullyErect said: All different except for Saber and Gilgamesh. White haired Archer is different from Gil. Also True Assassin and Kirei's assassin might be the same True Assassin aka Cursed-Arm Hassan from F/SN is different from the Hundred Faced Hassan of F/Z. Also Everything is explained in the VN and at the end of Zero. |
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Aug 14, 2016 12:41 PM
#9
Destinesia said: Kaneki_Haise said: You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned. Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway. |
Aug 14, 2016 12:42 PM
#10
Aug 14, 2016 1:27 PM
#11
yeah i was confused about the characters in fate/zero too. i looked at them and i was like "why the fuck should i care"???? the only character fate/zero needs is rider lmaooooooo |
Aug 14, 2016 1:47 PM
#12
On_the_Lam said: Destinesia said: Kaneki_Haise said: You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned. Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway. Well Saber is not an animaly. In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned. |
Aug 14, 2016 1:58 PM
#13
Destinesia said: Some are and some aren't. An example is Gilgamesh. My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW? Destinesia said: If I answer this question then it's a spoiler so Imma put a spoiler tag. does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"? Yes, Saber has the same memories from 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, Kiritsugu did something that made Emiya summon Saber in UBW's timeline |
Aug 14, 2016 2:12 PM
#14
You can summon a Servant in one of two ways for the Holy Grail War: 1. Summon a specific servant by possessing an artifact from the servant you want to summon during the summoning. Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic. 2. Perform a generic summoning ceremony and the gives you a random servant from the servant classes that have not already been summoned. |
Aug 14, 2016 4:05 PM
#15
Bourmegar said: On_the_Lam said: Destinesia said: Kaneki_Haise said: You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned. Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway. Well Saber is not an animaly. In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned. I could have sworn I read somewhere (the official wikia I believe) that she is an anomaly. I honestly don't know. |
Aug 15, 2016 4:31 AM
#16
Classes are just classes. There are millions of heroic spirits recorded over the course of history that can fit them and are chosen at random. So unless you have the catalyst for summoning or there are some reasons for it being possible, you won't see the same spirit in two wars in a row. Servants generally do NOT remember their previous wars because they are just copies. The Grail ritual reads the data from throne of heroes and the copy is then imprinted upon a prepared mana vessel and is deleted at the end as to not taint the original. The Heroic Spirits themselves can view the info since the throne of heroes is outside space-time so the originals can know everything from start to beginning of universe.The servants summoned on other hand do not. The summoning itself is random - you can impact the likeability of getting a certain heroic spirit by having a catalyst associated with his/her life and you can influence the class you summon. Otherwise its entirely up to a random chance and your compatibility of personality with various heroic spirits. All of it is explained in FSN VN, which Zero automatically assumes you have already read. On_the_Lam said: Bourmegar said: On_the_Lam said: Destinesia said: Kaneki_Haise said: You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned. Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway. Well Saber is not an animaly. In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned. I could have sworn I read somewhere (the official wikia I believe) that she is an anomaly. I honestly don't know. She IS an anomaly. She is not even technically a heroic spirit. Kruszer said: Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic. Factually incorrect. FSN Berserker, Caster, Assassin and Saber are all summoned by catalysts. Rider most likely is too but it is unknown. Lancer might be too since Bazett just happening to summon someone she idolized since childhood is very unlikely. The only randomly summoned servant is Saber and even then a catalyst was involved. Also beyond Kayneth and maybe Tokiomi the rest of masters in FZ are idiots in terms of magic. And even then the only one comparable to lets say Rin in terms of knowledge and power is Kayneth. And all of FZ masters including kayneth and tokiomi are idiots if we exclude the knowledge in magic. You don't need to be "knowledgeable" to get a catalyst. You need money and resources to acquire it. |
AhenshihaelAug 15, 2016 4:37 AM
Aug 15, 2016 5:51 AM
#17
Aug 15, 2016 6:02 AM
#18
On_the_Lam said: Yes, I was certain I read it correctly. If she isn't a heroic spirit, then what exactly is she? Not many things are explained in UBW and Fate/Zero, so I suppose Heaven's Feel will? Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing. In nasuverse the planet is conscious and intelligent. The planet's intelligence is compromised of two counter forces - Gaia and Alaya. Gaia is the unconscious will of the planet itself, or nature and is driven by the need for self survival. Alaya is the collective unconsciousness of all Humanity and has only one interest of continuous existence of human race. These two forces consistently balance each other out and employ various beings for their needs. Gaia employs what is known as Beasts of Gaia(spirits and phantasmal species), while Alaya influences probabilities of something happening(ex: Shirou's existence as a direct contrast to Gil and Kirei, Ryogi Shiki's involvement in the spiral apartment in KN6, etc), as well as employing beasts of alaya, which include beings known as Counter Guardians - strong human individuals who essentially made a deal with Alaya for gaining something in exchange of selling their own post-mortem existence to it. On her dying moment on the hill of Camlann Saber made a deal with the World to serve it if it gets her the grail. As a result, her consciousness from the moment of her death is transported by the World into situations where gaining the grail is possible. If she were to gain the grail the contract would be complete and she would have to serve the World as counter guardian. She longs to have the grail so she can erase her own existence from the history so someone else becomes the king and hopefully saves her country she doomed. A normal servant is a copy of heroic spirit residing inside Throne of Heroes(which exists inside a multiversal concept known as the Root of Akasha, the origin of all things), implanted into a mana vessel created by the grail. Heroic Spirits that are summoned usually seek the grail to fulfill a certain unfulfilled goal they had in their lives. Thus in exchange of gaining their wish they compete for grail. Unlike other servants, she is not a heroic spirit and not summoned from the throne of heroes. She is not copied She is a mind of a real live person being transferred from the point of her death and back, thus she remembers each war she was in. She can match other servants because in time of her life she WAS as powerful as a servant(pretty much all heroic spirits are stronger than their real life selves, with exception of Saber who is equal and Gilgamesh, whose real life self was stronger than his heroic spirit form). If she succeeds, she erases herself from history but she still is doomed to serve the World the same way Archer was. Which is why the main narrative of FSN is about her learning to let go of her regrets and pass on peacefully. Letting go of gaining the grail and trying to change her past, her mind returns to the moment of her death and she passes away peacefully without becoming a counter guardian or heroic spirit, with her soul remaining in Avalon(the land of fairies) till the Britain's greatest need. |
AhenshihaelAug 15, 2016 6:11 AM
Aug 15, 2016 6:18 AM
#19
Fai said: On_the_Lam said: Yes, I was certain I read it correctly. If she isn't a heroic spirit, then what exactly is she? Not many things are explained in UBW and Fate/Zero, so I suppose Heaven's Feel will? Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing. In nasuverse the planet is conscious and intelligent. The planet's intelligence is compromised of two counter forces - Gaia and Alaya. Gaia is the unconscious will of the planet itself, or nature and is driven by the need for self survival. Alaya is the collective unconsciousness of all Humanity and has only one interest of continuous existence of human race. These two forces consistently balance each other out and employ various beings for their needs. Gaia employs what is known as Beasts of Gaia(spirits and phantasmal species), while Alaya influences probabilities of something happening(ex: Shirou's existence as a direct contrast to Gil and Kirei, Ryogi Shiki's involvement in the spiral apartment in KN6, etc), as well as employing beasts of alaya, which include beings known as Counter Guardians - strong human individuals who essentially made a deal with Alaya for gaining something in exchange of selling their own post-mortem existence to it. On her dying moment on the hill of Camlann Saber made a deal with the World to serve it if it gets her the grail. As a result, her consciousness from the moment of her death is transported by the World into situations where gaining the grail is possible. If she were to gain the grail the contract would be complete and she would have to serve the World as counter guardian. She longs to have the grail so she can erase her own existence from the history so someone else becomes the king and hopefully saves her country she doomed. A normal servant is a copy of heroic spirit residing inside Throne of Heroes(which exists inside a multiversal concept known as the Root of Akasha, the origin of all things), implanted into a mana vessel created by the grail. Heroic Spirits that are summoned usually seek the grail to fulfill a certain unfulfilled goal they had in their lives. Thus in exchange of gaining their wish they compete for grail. Unlike other servants, she is not a heroic spirit and not summoned from the throne of heroes. She is not copied She is a mind of a real live person being transferred from the point of her death and back, thus she remembers each war she was in. She can match other servants because in time of her life she WAS as powerful as a servant(pretty much all heroic spirits are stronger than their real life selves, with exception of Saber who is equal and Gilgamesh, whose real life self was stronger than his heroic spirit form). If she succeeds, she erases herself from history but she still is doomed to serve the World the same way Archer was. Which is why the main narrative of FSN is about her learning to let go of her regrets and pass on peacefully. Letting go of gaining the grail and trying to change her past, her mind returns to the moment of her death and she passes away peacefully without becoming a counter guardian or heroic spirit, with her soul remaining in Avalon(the land of fairies) till the Britain's greatest need. Kind of an odd decision cutting all that explanation out, when it's crucial to understanding Saber's obsession with the Holy Grail. By "erases herself from history", do you mean she literally ceases to exist (so King Arthur never really existed in the world), once she gets hold of the Holy Grail? And by Holy Grail, do you mean the lesser Holy Grail or the true one? Has any family ever truly won the Holy Grail and reached Akasha? |
Aug 15, 2016 2:11 PM
#20
Fai said: Kruszer said: Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic. Factually incorrect. FSN Berserker, Caster, Assassin and Saber are all summoned by catalysts. Rider most likely is too but it is unknown. Lancer might be too since Bazett just happening to summon someone she idolized since childhood is very unlikely. The only randomly summoned servant is Saber and even then a catalyst was involved. Also beyond Kayneth and maybe Tokiomi the rest of masters in FZ are idiots in terms of magic. And even then the only one comparable to lets say Rin in terms of knowledge and power is Kayneth. And all of FZ masters including kayneth and tokiomi are idiots if we exclude the knowledge in magic. You don't need to be "knowledgeable" to get a catalyst. You need money and resources to acquire it. You need to be knowledgeable enough to know you need one though, which basically excludes every participating master in F/SN grail war, minus Illiya. Because I'm discounting the ones that were masters who did not participate in the war and were killed off-screen or in a flashback, the ones we don't have anime canon information for how they were summoned, and those servants summoned by other servants. |
Aug 15, 2016 2:21 PM
#21
Well, that clears up pretty much :) thanks for the answers Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time? Maybe I am getting ahead of the plot, but im asking just in case it isn't explained later |
Aug 15, 2016 3:52 PM
#22
Kruszer said: You need to be knowledgeable enough to know you need one though, which basically excludes every participating master in F/SN grail war, minus Illiya. Because I'm discounting the ones that were masters who did not participate in the war and were killed off-screen or in a flashback, the ones we don't have anime canon information for how they were summoned, and those servants summoned by other servants. First of all there's no such thing as "anime canon". The canon is the VN. Anything in anime that contradicts the VN is non-canon. Knowing about catalysts is basic knowledge. It does not make you some wise and strong person. As I said majority of FZ masters were idiots and still knew how to use it(ex: waver and kerry). In terms of Fifth War: - Rin knew about catalysts. Rin is already smarter than majority of Fourth War masters and could beat most of them. Yet She simply had none because you need A LOT of money and influence to acquire an item that was owned by a heroic spirit. Thus she unknowingly used her pendant as a catalyst to summon Archer. - Summoning an Assassin generally does not need a catalyst since there's only one heroic spirit for that. - Illya used a slab from Herc's temple as catalyst. it was then made into his sword. - Saber was summoned with Avalon as catalyst. - Caster was summoned via catalyst by the random master she then killed. - Rider is unknown and Lancer is unknown but likely Thus the ratio to catalyst to no catalyst is about teh same as as FZ On_the_Lam said: Kind of an odd decision cutting all that explanation out, when it's crucial to understanding Saber's obsession with the Holy Grail. By "erases herself from history", do you mean she literally ceases to exist (so King Arthur never really existed in the world), once she gets hold of the Holy Grail? And by Holy Grail, do you mean the lesser Holy Grail or the true one? Has any family ever truly won the Holy Grail and reached Akasha? She wants to make a wish upon the grail so she never drew the sword from the stone and never became the king of britain. So King Arthur no longer eixsts. Saber however would still continue exist forever serving the World because of the contract, as the world would have fulfilled her wish of gaining the grail. "Lesser grail" is just a vessel. As in, Illya. Once the vessel is filled it connects to the greater grail and acts as a conduit. So technically "Lesser and great grails" are part of a single whole. You don't need the grail to reach Akasha. Its just one of many ways tried. In this case it is the way Einzberns designed, enlisting Matou and Tokiomi families to help fulfill it. There are many other ways magi have tried reaching Akasha. Sometimes its a very contrived method(Ex: the apartment building in KNK6) , while sometimes it just comes naturally via over-exertion (ex: Aoko Aozaki's case). The Root of Akasha is the closest thing to god in nasuverse, the thing from which everything in the multiverse originated from. Reaching it generally means coming close to the existence of the god which should range from anything like attaining True Magic to even such ridiculous things as true godhood. Generally it is unknown if anyone ever truly reached Akasha itself. First of all, Counter Force generally views such research as a threat to the world and destroys anything that tries it too bluntly, hence why most of those who try take precautions to mask it in various ways(ex: Araya's barrier in the apartment complex or how holy grail war ritual is very indirect) Second of all if anyone truly succeeded there's no way of confirming them as reaching an existence close to god they would have no reason to reappear in corporeal reality. In terms of grail war - No war had a winner. First Grail war had the users turn on each other even if the first grail was formed, thus ritual was interrupted. Second war turned into a bloodshed. Third War ended up a mess tainting the grail. Fourth War was interrupted by Kiritsugu, Fifth war was stopped before the grail could mature and open. There ARE individuals who came close to root and turned away though - two known for sure are the unknown wielder of the first magic and the wielder of fifth magic Aoko Aozaki. Generally the only real effects of Akasha that can be observed are: Heroic Spirits - Throne of Heroes exists within Akasha so servants are copied and summoned from there. Mystic Eyes of Death Perception - a thing given to a single individual who came to the state of death(thus return to the root) and came back to life from it. There can only be one wielder of mystic eyes of death perception at once. Five true magics - if magecraft is basically alchemy, then True Magic is essentially something that is not governed by any laws and bends the very reality of the world. IT is something that draw's its power form the Root itself. While First and Fifth magic were acquired by coming close to root and turning back, Second Third and Fourth were created as means to reach it. There are known five users of it: - First Magic, which had something to do with creation. The user is dead but due to the nature of the magic, still "is". - Second Magic, Kaleidoscope. The Magic of Parallel Worlds, wielded by founder of Magic Association, Zelretch. It allows the user to cross into parallel worlds and draw power from it. - Third Magic, Heaven's Feel. The Wish Granting magic of Einzbern's holy grail. - Fourth Magic, which has something to do with concealment. All that is known is that it exists. - Fifth Magic, Blue, wielded by Aoko Aozaki. Manipulates and alters causality and essentially is what is causing the entropy of the universe, meaning it is responsible for eventual death of the universe. Beyond that, Root is pretty much a concept and goal of a magus and can't be observed or proven. |
AhenshihaelAug 15, 2016 3:58 PM
Aug 17, 2016 7:16 AM
#23
Fai said: On_the_Lam said: Yes, I was certain I read it correctly. If she isn't a heroic spirit, then what exactly is she? Not many things are explained in UBW and Fate/Zero, so I suppose Heaven's Feel will? Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing. The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more Destinesia said: Well, that clears up pretty much :) thanks for the answers Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time? Maybe I am getting ahead of the plot, but im asking just in case it isn't explained later A Servant is only a copy of a certain Heroic Spirit. The real Heroic Spirits are being outside time. After their death, the soul of a human that accomplished great deeds is extracted from the cycle of reincarnations and it's put in a "place" outside time called the Throne of Heroes. So no, Servants can't go back to their time, because they are not taken from their time. After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy). Saber is a special case, she IS taken from her time and she will always go back to her time. |
YggdrasilTMAug 17, 2016 7:30 AM
Aug 18, 2016 6:18 AM
#24
YggdrasilTM said: After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy). So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe? |
Aug 18, 2016 7:00 AM
#25
Destinesia said: YggdrasilTM said: After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy). So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe? Even less than dreams. Dreams at least are in first person. For the true Heroic Spirit it's like reading in a book or a newspaper about the actions of someone else. |
Aug 19, 2016 7:22 AM
#26
Destinesia said: Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time? Heroic spirits are stored in Throne of Heroes which is a location outside normal space and time, inside the Root of Origin. One version of each hero in the entire multiverse is saved for being first in accomplishing unique deeds on scale to affect the World. As a result the further in human history you go the less likely it is to become a heroic spirit in your lifetime, by the point that around 1900's its pretty much no longer possible and most of post-Age Of Gods heroes are complete weaklings recognized for most eccentric things. Holy Grail ritual reads the data of said stored heroes and COPIES the information into a vessel made out of mana. When the said copy dies, it is destroyed. However Heroic Spirits DO have access to information of all time so they CAN know what happened in the wars their copies were summoned to, but that's nothing more than information. Its like reading a book about someone else. They did not experience it and their copies would have no idea about it anyway. YggdrasilTM said: The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too. Destinesia said: YggdrasilTM said: After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy). So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe? Knowing information =/= experiencing it. Its like reading a history book. |
AhenshihaelAug 19, 2016 7:28 AM
Aug 19, 2016 8:32 AM
#27
Fai said: YggdrasilTM said: The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too. How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history |
Aug 19, 2016 8:52 AM
#28
YggdrasilTM said: Fai said: YggdrasilTM said: The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too. How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history It would explain that you don't have to be a heroic spirit to be summoned into a war and explain mechanics of how Saber's wish could even possibly send her through time. Explaining CGs properly is explaining The World properly. Explaining the World properly literally would mean that you would only say the whole "she is still alive" thing and the rest would be there. Now you need to explain that she made the wish while alive, WHILE explaining The World, how such wishes work, what is Gaia/Alaya stuff, why it is bad for her, how servants even work, etc. You are also somehow ignoring my mention of DEENFSN removing its explanations too, since one goes with the other. DEENFSN being borked on explanations means you have to explain stuff. UBW being also borked on explanations means you have to Explain EVEN MORE. |
Aug 19, 2016 10:23 AM
#29
Fai said: YggdrasilTM said: Fai said: YggdrasilTM said: The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too. How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history It would explain that you don't have to be a heroic spirit to be summoned into a war and explain mechanics of how Saber's wish could even possibly send her through time. Explaining CGs properly is explaining The World properly. Explaining the World properly literally would mean that you would only say the whole "she is still alive" thing and the rest would be there. Now you need to explain that she made the wish while alive, WHILE explaining The World, how such wishes work, what is Gaia/Alaya stuff, why it is bad for her, how servants even work, etc. It does not make sense. How does the counter guardian explanation tell you that Saber is not dead? How does the Gaya/Alaya stuff (that is NOT in UBW, in Fate, or even in HF, for the matter) help to explain Saber situation? I mean, Fate alone explains Saber situation, why are you omplaining about additional details on Counter Guardian in UBW that in any case does not help, not even n some strange convolute way, to understand that she is alive? You are also somehow ignoring my mention of DEENFSN removing its explanations too, since one goes with the other. DEENFSN being borked on explanations means you have to explain stuff. UBW being also borked on explanations means you have to Explain EVEN MORE. No, what I said is that UBW stuff 1) it is not needed to explain Saber. 2) it does not even suggest what Saber situation is. |
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