Confused about some Fate/Zero characters

Offline

Jul 2013

424

LeWeebJames said:
Saber is the same,Gilgamesh is archer from Fate/zero and archer from UBW is another guy.

And what about Lancer and the others?

Also, why do some of them get summoned again while others not?

Aug 14, 2016 12:27 PM

#5

Aure0lin

Offline

Mar 2016

1958

All different except for Saber and Gilgamesh. White haired Archer is different from Gil.

Also True Assassin and Kirei's assassin might be the same

"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says.
I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby".
"She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other."

Aug 14, 2016 12:30 PM

#6

spahura

Offline

Apr 2015

71

Destinesia said:

And what about Lancer and the others?

Also, why do some of them get summoned again while others not?

You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned.

Aug 14, 2016 12:33 PM

#7

Offline

Jul 2013

424

Kaneki_Haise said:

You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned.

Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer

Aug 14, 2016 12:38 PM

#8

izanaginookami

Offline

Aug 2014

2683

FullyErect said:
All different except for Saber and Gilgamesh. White haired Archer is different from Gil.

Also True Assassin and Kirei's assassin might be the same

True Assassin aka Cursed-Arm Hassan from F/SN is different from the Hundred Faced Hassan of F/Z.

Also Everything is explained in the VN and at the end of Zero.

Aug 14, 2016 12:41 PM

#9

Offline

Aug 2015

2011

Destinesia said:

Kaneki_Haise said:

You can tell after finishing watching Fate Zero. Kiritusgu does something which could have influenced saber being resummoned.

Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer

No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway.

Aug 14, 2016 12:42 PM

#10

black1blade

Offline

Aug 2014

8320

Read the fate/stay night visual novel and all your questions will be answered.

Anime is good, fucking deal with it.

Aug 14, 2016 1:27 PM

#11

defunct0001

Offline

Feb 2016

1494

yeah i was confused about the characters in fate/zero too. i looked at them and i was like "why the fuck should i care"???? the only character fate/zero needs is rider lmaooooooo

Aug 14, 2016 1:47 PM

#12

Bourmegar

Offline

Oct 2014

2569

On_the_Lam said:

Destinesia said:

Oh so it is clarified at the end. Thanks for the answer

No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway.

Well Saber is not an animaly.
In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned.

Aug 14, 2016 1:58 PM

#13

jc9622

Offline

May 2015

2216

Destinesia said:
My question is, are the heroic spirits in Fate/Zero the same ones as in FSNUBW?

Some are and some aren't. An example is Gilgamesh.

Destinesia said:
does the Saber in FSNUBW have the memories of the Saber who fought ten year ago in the 4th Holy Grail War? Or is it like a "new version"?

If I answer this question then it's a spoiler so Imma put a spoiler tag.

Aug 14, 2016 2:12 PM

#14

Kruszer

Offline

Dec 2012

9374

You can summon a Servant in one of two ways for the Holy Grail War:

1. Summon a specific servant by possessing an artifact from the servant you want to summon during the summoning. Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic.

2. Perform a generic summoning ceremony and the gives you a random servant from the servant classes that have not already been summoned.

"Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them."
-Souske Aizen "Bleach"

Aug 14, 2016 4:05 PM

#15

Offline

Aug 2015

2011

Bourmegar said:

On_the_Lam said:

No, it isn't clarified; not spoken out/explained with words at least. Saber is basically an anomaly. The Fate series lore is kind of confusing anyway.

Well Saber is not an animaly.
In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned.

I could have sworn I read somewhere (the official wikia I believe) that she is an anomaly. I honestly don't know.

Aug 15, 2016 4:31 AM

#16

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

Classes are just classes. There are millions of heroic spirits recorded over the course of history that can fit them and are chosen at random.

So unless you have the catalyst for summoning or there are some reasons for it being possible, you won't see the same spirit in two wars in a row.

Servants generally do NOT remember their previous wars because they are just copies. The Grail ritual reads the data from throne of heroes and the copy is then imprinted upon a prepared mana vessel and is deleted at the end as to not taint the original. The Heroic Spirits themselves can view the info since the throne of heroes is outside space-time so the originals can know everything from start to beginning of universe.The servants summoned on other hand do not.

The summoning itself is random - you can impact the likeability of getting a certain heroic spirit by having a catalyst associated with his/her life and you can influence the class you summon. Otherwise its entirely up to a random chance and your compatibility of personality with various heroic spirits.

All of it is explained in FSN VN, which Zero automatically assumes you have already read.

On_the_Lam said:

Bourmegar said:

Well Saber is not an animaly.
In Fate stay night, it was explained why Saber was summoned.

I could have sworn I read somewhere (the official wikia I believe) that she is an anomaly. I honestly don't know.

She IS an anomaly.

Kruszer said:
Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic.

Factually incorrect.

You don't need to be "knowledgeable" to get a catalyst. You need money and resources to acquire it.

AhenshihaelAug 15, 2016 4:37 AM

Aug 15, 2016 5:51 AM

#17

Offline

Aug 2015

2011

Fai said:

She IS an anomaly.

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.

Aug 15, 2016 6:02 AM

#18

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

On_the_Lam said:

Fai said:

She IS an anomaly.

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.

Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing.

In nasuverse the planet is conscious and intelligent. The planet's intelligence is compromised of two counter forces - Gaia and Alaya. Gaia is the unconscious will of the planet itself, or nature and is driven by the need for self survival. Alaya is the collective unconsciousness of all Humanity and has only one interest of continuous existence of human race. These two forces consistently balance each other out and employ various beings for their needs.
Gaia employs what is known as Beasts of Gaia(spirits and phantasmal species), while Alaya influences probabilities of something happening(ex: Shirou's existence as a direct contrast to Gil and Kirei, Ryogi Shiki's involvement in the spiral apartment in KN6, etc), as well as employing beasts of alaya, which include beings known as Counter Guardians - strong human individuals who essentially made a deal with Alaya for gaining something in exchange of selling their own post-mortem existence to it.

On her dying moment on the hill of Camlann Saber made a deal with the World to serve it if it gets her the grail. As a result, her consciousness from the moment of her death is transported by the World into situations where gaining the grail is possible. If she were to gain the grail the contract would be complete and she would have to serve the World as counter guardian. She longs to have the grail so she can erase her own existence from the history so someone else becomes the king and hopefully saves her country she doomed.

A normal servant is a copy of heroic spirit residing inside Throne of Heroes(which exists inside a multiversal concept known as the Root of Akasha, the origin of all things), implanted into a mana vessel created by the grail. Heroic Spirits that are summoned usually seek the grail to fulfill a certain unfulfilled goal they had in their lives. Thus in exchange of gaining their wish they compete for grail.

Unlike other servants, she is not a heroic spirit and not summoned from the throne of heroes. She is not copied She is a mind of a real live person being transferred from the point of her death and back, thus she remembers each war she was in. She can match other servants because in time of her life she WAS as powerful as a servant(pretty much all heroic spirits are stronger than their real life selves, with exception of Saber who is equal and Gilgamesh, whose real life self was stronger than his heroic spirit form).

If she succeeds, she erases herself from history but she still is doomed to serve the World the same way Archer was.
Which is why the main narrative of FSN is about her learning to let go of her regrets and pass on peacefully.
Letting go of gaining the grail and trying to change her past, her mind returns to the moment of her death and she passes away peacefully without becoming a counter guardian or heroic spirit, with her soul remaining in Avalon(the land of fairies) till the Britain's greatest need.

AhenshihaelAug 15, 2016 6:11 AM

Aug 15, 2016 6:18 AM

#19

Offline

Aug 2015

2011

Fai said:

On_the_Lam said:

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.

Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing.

In nasuverse the planet is conscious and intelligent. The planet's intelligence is compromised of two counter forces - Gaia and Alaya. Gaia is the unconscious will of the planet itself, or nature and is driven by the need for self survival. Alaya is the collective unconsciousness of all Humanity and has only one interest of continuous existence of human race. These two forces consistently balance each other out and employ various beings for their needs.
Gaia employs what is known as Beasts of Gaia(spirits and phantasmal species), while Alaya influences probabilities of something happening(ex: Shirou's existence as a direct contrast to Gil and Kirei, Ryogi Shiki's involvement in the spiral apartment in KN6, etc), as well as employing beasts of alaya, which include beings known as Counter Guardians - strong human individuals who essentially made a deal with Alaya for gaining something in exchange of selling their own post-mortem existence to it.

On her dying moment on the hill of Camlann Saber made a deal with the World to serve it if it gets her the grail. As a result, her consciousness from the moment of her death is transported by the World into situations where gaining the grail is possible. If she were to gain the grail the contract would be complete and she would have to serve the World as counter guardian. She longs to have the grail so she can erase her own existence from the history so someone else becomes the king and hopefully saves her country she doomed.

A normal servant is a copy of heroic spirit residing inside Throne of Heroes(which exists inside a multiversal concept known as the Root of Akasha, the origin of all things), implanted into a mana vessel created by the grail. Heroic Spirits that are summoned usually seek the grail to fulfill a certain unfulfilled goal they had in their lives. Thus in exchange of gaining their wish they compete for grail.

Unlike other servants, she is not a heroic spirit and not summoned from the throne of heroes. She is not copied She is a mind of a real live person being transferred from the point of her death and back, thus she remembers each war she was in. She can match other servants because in time of her life she WAS as powerful as a servant(pretty much all heroic spirits are stronger than their real life selves, with exception of Saber who is equal and Gilgamesh, whose real life self was stronger than his heroic spirit form).

If she succeeds, she erases herself from history but she still is doomed to serve the World the same way Archer was.
Which is why the main narrative of FSN is about her learning to let go of her regrets and pass on peacefully.
Letting go of gaining the grail and trying to change her past, her mind returns to the moment of her death and she passes away peacefully without becoming a counter guardian or heroic spirit, with her soul remaining in Avalon(the land of fairies) till the Britain's greatest need.

Kind of an odd decision cutting all that explanation out, when it's crucial to understanding Saber's obsession with the Holy Grail.

Aug 15, 2016 2:11 PM

#20

Kruszer

Offline

Dec 2012

9374

Fai said:

Kruszer said:
Most of the Masters from Fate/Zero do this because they are more knowledgeable about magic.

Factually incorrect.

You don't need to be "knowledgeable" to get a catalyst. You need money and resources to acquire it.

You need to be knowledgeable enough to know you need one though, which basically excludes every participating master in F/SN grail war, minus Illiya. Because I'm discounting the ones that

Feel free to count them if you want though.

"Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them."
-Souske Aizen "Bleach"

Aug 15, 2016 2:21 PM

#21

Offline

Jul 2013

424

Well, that clears up pretty much :) thanks for the answers

Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time?

Maybe I am getting ahead of the plot, but im asking just in case it isn't explained later

Aug 15, 2016 3:52 PM

#22

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

Kruszer said:

You need to be knowledgeable enough to know you need one though, which basically excludes every participating master in F/SN grail war, minus Illiya. Because I'm discounting the ones that

Feel free to count them if you want though.

First of all there's no such thing as "anime canon". The canon is the VN. Anything in anime that contradicts the VN is non-canon.

Thus the ratio to catalyst to no catalyst is about teh same as as FZ

On_the_Lam said:

Kind of an odd decision cutting all that explanation out, when it's crucial to understanding Saber's obsession with the Holy Grail.

AhenshihaelAug 15, 2016 3:58 PM

Aug 17, 2016 7:16 AM

#23

Offline

Oct 2011

256

Fai said:

On_the_Lam said:

Yes, I was certain I read it correctly.

Nope. It is explained in fate and UBW routes but both adaptations that exist pretty much cut 99% of relevant explanation. HF has pretty much no explanations. Just plot twists and pay off for various foreshadowing.

The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more

Destinesia said:
Well, that clears up pretty much :) thanks for the answers

Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time?

Maybe I am getting ahead of the plot, but im asking just in case it isn't explained later

A Servant is only a copy of a certain Heroic Spirit. The real Heroic Spirits are being outside time. After their death, the soul of a human that accomplished great deeds is extracted from the cycle of reincarnations and it's put in a "place" outside time called the Throne of Heroes.
So no, Servants can't go back to their time, because they are not taken from their time. After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).
Saber is a special case, she IS taken from her time and she will always go back to her time.

YggdrasilTMAug 17, 2016 7:30 AM

Aug 18, 2016 6:18 AM

#24

Offline

Jul 2013

424

YggdrasilTM said:
After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).

So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe?

Aug 18, 2016 7:00 AM

#25

Offline

Oct 2011

256

Destinesia said:

YggdrasilTM said:
After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).

So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe?

Even less than dreams. Dreams at least are in first person. For the true Heroic Spirit it's like reading in a book or a newspaper about the actions of someone else.

Aug 19, 2016 7:22 AM

#26

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

Destinesia said:

Oh and another question which came up into my mind while watching FZ. Once a Heroic spirit dies in the Holy Grail War, does he actually "die" or does he return to his period of time?

Heroic spirits are stored in Throne of Heroes which is a location outside normal space and time, inside the Root of Origin. One version of each hero in the entire multiverse is saved for being first in accomplishing unique deeds on scale to affect the World. As a result the further in human history you go the less likely it is to become a heroic spirit in your lifetime, by the point that around 1900's its pretty much no longer possible and most of post-Age Of Gods heroes are complete weaklings recognized for most eccentric things.

Holy Grail ritual reads the data of said stored heroes and COPIES the information into a vessel made out of mana. When the said copy dies, it is destroyed. However Heroic Spirits DO have access to information of all time so they CAN know what happened in the wars their copies were summoned to, but that's nothing more than information. Its like reading a book about someone else. They did not experience it and their copies would have no idea about it anyway.

YggdrasilTM said:
The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more

UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too.

Destinesia said:

YggdrasilTM said:
After a Servant dies, the copy is deastroyed and their memories go back to the "real" HS as pure information (it's not like they lived through the events of the copy).

So, let's say that the memories of the event remain in the original Heroic Spirit but the physical body of the copy vanishes? In that case the original Heroic Spirit remember the events but not like they happened to him but as dreams maybe?

Knowing information =/= experiencing it.

Its like reading a history book.

AhenshihaelAug 19, 2016 7:28 AM

Aug 19, 2016 8:32 AM

#27

Offline

Oct 2011

256

Fai said:

YggdrasilTM said:
The UBW route does not explain anything about Saber. It does not even mention her identity or the name of her sword. The more explicit reference is Archer calling her "King of Knights" and telling that she is clinging to a "foolish wish", and nothing more

UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too.

How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history

Aug 19, 2016 8:52 AM

#28

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

YggdrasilTM said:

Fai said:

UBW explains counter guardian mechanics and the situation Archer is in which is directly important for Saber. Knowing Saber's general wish form FZ like OP does when combined with actual CG explanations in UBW would be enough to understand about Saber, alas that is missing too.

How, exactly, knowing Saber general wish and the CG explanation can tell you that she is still alive and bouncing in time? from those information you only deduct that she is dead and she wants to win the holy grail and use it to redo history

It would explain that you don't have to be a heroic spirit to be summoned into a war and explain mechanics of how Saber's wish could even possibly send her through time.

Explaining CGs properly is explaining The World properly. Explaining the World properly literally would mean that you would only say the whole "she is still alive" thing and the rest would be there.

Now you need to explain that she made the wish while alive, WHILE explaining The World, how such wishes work, what is Gaia/Alaya stuff, why it is bad for her, how servants even work, etc.

You are also somehow ignoring my mention of DEENFSN removing its explanations too, since one goes with the other. DEENFSN being borked on explanations means you have to explain stuff. UBW being also borked on explanations means you have to Explain EVEN MORE.

Aug 19, 2016 10:23 AM

#29