| What the fuck is with this story writing. Netero, a guy who has trained his whole damn life, who is probably one (not the strongest, but one) of the strongest Nen users around goes against Meruem and just can basically do nothing, nothing at all. Even his secret final Zero attack did so little damage.... But a bomb A fucking....BOMB almost obliterates Meruem A mass produced item almost kills the strongest enemy to this point, effectively rendering Nen fucking useless and pointless. GREAT WRITING TOGASHI |
| so basically it should have been a generic and predictable fight how did you even read this series all the way up to that point without giving up on it |
Artorias said: What the fuck is with this story writing. Netero, a guy who has trained his whole damn life, who is probably one (not the strongest, but one) of the strongest Nen users around goes against Meruem and just can basically do nothing, nothing at all. Even his secret final Zero attack did so little damage.... But a bomb A fucking....BOMB almost obliterates Meruem A mass produced item almost kills the strongest enemy to this point, effectively rendering Nen fucking useless and pointless. GREAT WRITING TOGASHI I think you are overreacting a little bit but yeah I agree that Netero's fight was very underwhelming considering all the hype that surrounded the character since he was introduced. I mean I figured he was going to lose either way but it was pretty lame almost in the style of DBZ how he did pretty much nothing to Meruem. Reminded me of the hyped up battle between Piccolo and Cell in the Cell Saga. |
FullmetalRaikouMar 14, 2013 2:42 PM
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RomanDogBird said: so basically it should have been a generic and predictable fight how did you even read this series all the way up to that point without giving up on it It should be a battle that doesn't end with a giant cop out that ruins the usefulness and depth of nen. He was doing a good job up until the Chimera ant arc, writing with more battles of wit instead of power wins everything. But then he decides to start writing power wins everything, and ends it by nullifying everything. Poor writing |
Artorias said: It should be a battle that doesn't end with a giant cop out that ruins the usefulness and depth of nen. He was doing a good job up until the Chimera ant arc, writing with more battles of wit instead of power wins everything. But then he decides to start writing power wins everything, and ends it by nullifying everything. Poor writing Well, I disagree that the outcome of this one battle somehow "ruins the usefulness and depth of nen". I think that so far Nen has been shown to be a powerful and versatile ability; and, just because, it is not an all-powerful ability does not mean it is ruined. Establishing that you will die, no matter how strong your Nen, if you have a nuke go off in your face is a limit I believe I can accept. However, I do agree that the Meruem-Netero fight was not as satisfying as many of the other battles in this series have been. It was definitely lacking when it comes to clever strategies/uses of Nen that have determined the outcomes of most of the previous major battles. |
NarcolepticSloth said: It really doesn't matter how many years he's trained for. He's still a human, and the Chimera Ants(especially the king) are so much more powerful than humans that even with nen we can't make a scratch. A bomb however is significantly more powerful than a human and much more destructive, and the King is still a living organism--I'm not really sure why you're surprised. HxH isn't generic powerup shounen. There are humans with some pretty crazy powers, but they're still human, and a bomb of that magnitude will still wreck them. Thanks for sparing me the need to respond in length. |
| Your wanting it to be generic and claiming it's bad writing don't add up. How your complaint sounds "omg why didn't he pew-pew Meryem to the afterlife, he's a top tieeerz" For that effect, you need DBZ, Bleach or OP to fill the gap. Not Hunter x Hunter. The fight was more about showing characteristics in Meryem, Netero and humans in general, as well as Meryem and Komugi's relationship afterward. |
| End Zionazism |
| Disagreed too, I would have been displeased if Meruem emerged from that nuke detonation unscathed. However, his death from the radioactive fallout could have been a little less "inevitable" if you know what I mean. Wasn't there a hope in hell that he could have been cured of the sickness? Even if there wasn't enough time/ Pitou was dead, hence unable to heal him, the what ifs could have been explored a little. That said, that dying sequence was the best. Komugi was the perfect foil for this antagonist. |
| I much preferred it this way, netero still won, it just cost him his life. Plus we got to see that mereum didn't want to fight, but actually wanted to understand and try to live with humans, the fight wasn't just there for action. Also set up the scene with him and komugi, shed a tear or two over that :P favorite shonen villain thus far :D Idk how you can call that bad writing, but hey, you are entitled to an opinion. |
| Does anyone else need a doctor to confirm that someone without a head is dead? |
FireValkyrie said: It really doesn't matter how many years he's trained for. He's still a human, and the Chimera Ants(especially the king) are so much more powerful than humans that even with nen we can't make a scratch. A bomb however is significantly more powerful than a human and much more destructive, and the King is still a living organism--I'm not really sure why you're surprised. HxH isn't generic powerup shounen. There are humans with some pretty crazy powers, but they're still human, and a bomb of that magnitude will still wreck them. LOL , maybe you should go read that part about Kite dieing and servicing as a plot device for Gon anger and his random ass power up . |
SkyDemonCannibal said: FireValkyrie said: It really doesn't matter how many years he's trained for. He's still a human, and the Chimera Ants(especially the king) are so much more powerful than humans that even with nen we can't make a scratch. A bomb however is significantly more powerful than a human and much more destructive, and the King is still a living organism--I'm not really sure why you're surprised. HxH isn't generic powerup shounen. There are humans with some pretty crazy powers, but they're still human, and a bomb of that magnitude will still wreck them. LOL , maybe you should go read that part about Kite dieing and servicing as a plot device for Gon anger and his random ass power up . Gons power up wasn't random, we already knew about the means to gain great power by making rules/conditions, kurapika has already done it, gon just went to the extreme and made the rule that he can never use nen again. |
| Does anyone else need a doctor to confirm that someone without a head is dead? |
Billbillstar said: jimbob1141 said: Gons power up wasn't random, we already knew about the means to gain great power by making rules/conditions, kurapika has already done it, gon just went to the extreme and made the rule that he can never use nen again. I think the only question to be asked is why haven't all of these characters submitted to some form of rule/condition? If Netero had maybe asked for the same thing as Gon, than perhaps he'd have beaten the King. I dunno You make a very good point there actually, can't argue there :P |
| Does anyone else need a doctor to confirm that someone without a head is dead? |
| I actually think that is one of the things that makes Hunter x Hunter unique from the other shonen jump's. It was a pretty epic fight btw. |
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Billbillstar said: I don't really think so, because I think Netero had already reached his limit with nen(after all it's his life energy), and wasn't at his prime since he was already old, Gon basically almost committed suicide and if you notice Gon looked like an adult, so maybe when he made that condition then it probably made him grow faster(don't know how to explain it) also, remember Gon has limitless potential and pitou stated that his nen was as strong as the Kingsjimbob1141 said: Gons power up wasn't random, we already knew about the means to gain great power by making rules/conditions, kurapika has already done it, gon just went to the extreme and made the rule that he can never use nen again. I think the only question to be asked is why haven't all of these characters submitted to some form of rule/condition? If Netero had maybe asked for the same thing as Gon, than perhaps he'd have beaten the King. I dunno |
RX-782May 17, 2013 7:36 PM
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| I thought the fight was awesome, probably my favorite fight out of everything I've ever read. |
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| the fight was epic ..not just between the two most powerful characters whith super cool abilities.. but two Deep characters and i have nothing against using a bomb that can exterminate nations in minutes..and you can't have an ability that vague like that with nen |
kitosamaMay 20, 2013 11:46 AM
| Oh Mikasa, again bashing on OP and calling it genereic? Can´t you use your brain for once, in a way that doesn´t make the human race going into a simultaneous collective facepalm? I know it´s hard to breathe, think and type at the same time - so just take your time. Collect your thoughts. And post something productive. Just once in your life. Now on topic - actually this fight played out extremely well. It´s a similiar story to Whitebeard in One Piece. Whitebeard was called the strongest pirate alive and he proved to be worth the title. But he said it himself - that title refered to his younger self. If he were in his prime, he would´ve wiped the floor with the marine HQ. Now to Netero, he as well stated that he received that title a long time ago. Age has gotten the best of him and seeing as Meruem got cornered by him really showed us that if Netero were in his prime age, he would´ve probably beaten him. Now on to the main point of my post - this fight was a battle of humans vs. a new species/animals. Compared to humans, animals are superior in a lot of areas. They can swim better, run faster, fly, have much better senses, are stronger, etc. The only thing we have going for us and that saved our existence in the first place is our intelligence. It´s the ability to create things to make up for our own shortcomings. If you pit a human against a lion, bear, shark, whatever without any technology or weapon whatsoever, he´d lose. By using guns, knives and poison we are able to keep them at bay or kill them. We are not born with the weapons to defend ourselves against predators like that, we have to get dirty and nasty to survive. Now, in HxH, humans have the ability called Nen. Nen is the art of controlling ones life force and giving it a form. So in fact, next to it´s weapons, humans have a natural power that let´s them compete with beasts and animals. Now, there is a new species that not only combines the natural abilities of animals and beasts, which are already far superior to our measly bodily abilities, with our human intelligence which enabled us to survive that long against the odds of nature as well as the ability to use the life force in the form of Nen. Now with all that in mind, pit the supposedly strongest human/hunter at his life span's end against the fresh born strongest collection of animals, beasts and humans of a superior race that absorbs the life force of anything he eats and you can compare it to a fight of an old hunter with a knive vs. a young grizzly bear. Sure the old hunter has his experience and training to fight against opponents like that, but vitality is at his enemies side. His experience can´t overcome the burden of age, thus letting him lose in terms of agility, strength and stamina. So how can the old hunter bring down the grizzly bear? How can Netero defeat Meruem? By relying on something that I already mentioned before - humanities iron will to survive, using any means possible. Atomic weapons, Biological weapons, Chemical weapons, pick your favourite. If it was an old hunter against a grizzly bear using a grenade as his last means, it´d be "well, he only had a knive, he fought against a bear, if that was the only way to kill it, why not?" It´s the same for Netero. Just that the survival of the human race depended on it and his enemy was the ultimate life form. And to put it into Netero´s own words: "King of the ants, Meruem. You don´t understand a thing about the limitless malice of mankind!" If some race gets too large, we burn it. If something annoys us, we poison it. If something threatens us, we exterminate it. So this fight shouldn´t piss you off, but should actually impress you, as it really is above other fights, especially in the shounen genre. It´s not willpower, friendship, life force or magical artifacts that saves humanity. It´s technology, it´s the unbelievable malice and viciousness to use any means possible to stand atop the food chain and defend it´s title of evolution`s finest. It´s technology, with the sole goal of killing everything it touches, originally designed to kill it´s creators, namely humans. This fight showed us that in a world of Nen and other supernatural abilitites and beings, no matter how strong a human is, he can´t overpower human´s enemies: Time and nature. And to overcome them, we rely on every means necessary. Be it poison, chemicals or something else. Even the ultimate life form can´t compete with the wicked creations of mass destruction that humanity created. Nature lost to the inventiveness of human´s desire to kill. |
one_eyed_dragonMay 26, 2013 10:13 AM
| thumb up |
one_eyed_dragon said: Even the ultimate life form can´t compete with the wicked creations of mass destruction that humanity created. Nature lost to the inventiveness of human´s desire to kill. I like you. I liked that post. |
| @ one_eyed_dragon |
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| Thank you for the support and applause, Togashi might be a lazy bum at some points (wether it´s due to his illness or Dragon Quest, I do not know) but the man knows to make an interesting narrative and create likeable characters left and right. It might be the wrong place to ask this, but is there a reason why people do not like the chimera ant arc? I, for one, thought it was on par with the Yorknew arc, at points even better than that. I also heard the chimera ant arc to Hunter x Hunter fans is what the Marineford arc is to One Piece fans...what´s that about? |
one_eyed_dragon said: It might be the wrong place to ask this, but is there a reason why people do not like the chimera ant arc? I, for one, thought it was on par with the Yorknew arc, at points even better than that. CA is by far and away my favorite arc; the atmosphere, intensity, and quality of writing is just the best Togashi's done. |
| i guess some viewers don't like too much violence despite being a shonen.. there is no other explanation for hating this arc. |
| I can´t deny that the logic of Hunter X Hunter is a bit inconsistent, especially considering that each arc basically introduced totally new systems. In the hunter exam arc we had the rules of the hunter games limiting some of the more powerful hunters, different beasts and areas, in the yorknew arc we had the mafia/humans vs. the phantom troupe (basically no rules - all out) thus we had a glimpse at OP nen abilities plus new rules introduced by Kurapika, in the Greed Island arc we had the rules and physics of the game and in the Chimera Ant arc we had the new rules set by the evolution of the ants. Bascially each arc had a different point of focus as well as a different set of enemies, rules, etc. It´s not always Hunter X Hunter, it´s hunter against human, hunter against monster, player against hunter, and so on. Unlike One Piece who has the overall system of Devil Fruits (in a nutshell, I know, it´s deeper than that), in the Hunter X Hunter arcs, Nen isn´t always the focus of the fights. There are lot of other factors that play into fights as I mentioned. That interpretation was just one of my own, Togashi could´ve meant something totally different. But what I can see from this fight is what I already wrote back then. Togashi doesn´t have to write panels explaining the malice of humanity - we could see that in Illumi, Hisoka, the Phantom Troupe, The Bomber, etc. aka the "bad guys" added to the fact that we know what we humans are capable of, no need to explain that we have a history of bloodshed, seeing as this world has established it uses technlogy based of the real world. You mentioned Uvogin´s case of him fending off a rocket without being fazed, it´s a good example to strenghten my point. What killed Mereum wasn´t the bomb itself, it was the poison. Uvogin´s nen was useless against the worms as well as the tranqulizer, meaning if he were to be caught in the exlposion, he would die as was well, even if his aura could´ve protected him from the blast and heat. No matter how hard you train, no matter how strong you are, if you are hit by atomic rays your cells will be destroyed, if germs enter your body it will react to them and weaken you in the process, if you inhale nerve gas it´ll prevent you from moving your muscles as you want them to, hence atomic, biological or chemical weapons. You can be a black belt master in hand to hand combat, be in the prime of your youth, live and eat healthy - if you´re poisened, you are going to die the same way a unhealthy fat 55 year old guy. Netero trained his whole life. He was dedicated to strengthen his own abilities. Yet, he couldn´t beat time. He can´t stop himself from aging. Mereum is the ultimate life form, a collection of genes containing humans, animals, beasts, insects, etc. and his body absorbs the aura of the beings he eats and grows even stronger. Yet, he can´t beat the synthetically created poison of the rose. Togashi doesn´t need to explain why Netero relied on the rose. He doesn´t need to explain why the poison killed Mereum. Netero knew that he would die in this fight - he hinted a few times at it that he would have to sacrifice himself. Nen wasn´t enough to kill Mereum. Netero knows what humanity is capable of and realizes that despite all of his training - age got the best of him. So he relies on what humans did since centuries - if you want to kill someone that is stronger than you - use a weapon. In a fight for survival it doesn´t matter if you get dirty - if you live, you win. If your home is infested with ants, exterminate them with poison. It´s the story of how we humans fought against nature. Humanity survived - the ants lost. |
Dangerr said: one_eyed_dragon said: It might be the wrong place to ask this, but is there a reason why people do not like the chimera ant arc? I, for one, thought it was on par with the Yorknew arc, at points even better than that. CA is by far and away my favorite arc; the atmosphere, intensity, and quality of writing is just the best Togashi's done. thumbs up, character writing was really on point here, and there was a multitude of awesome battles (the only part I didn't like was the artwork and the constant narrartion). Definitely one of the best arcs I've seen from a shonen. |
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Artorias said: A mass produced item almost kills the strongest enemy to this point, effectively rendering Nen fucking useless and pointless. Never mind things like collateral damage and the cost of his life. Yep nen is soooooooo useless. |
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Artorias said: What the fuck is with this story writing. Netero, a guy who has trained his whole damn life, who is probably one (not the strongest, but one) of the strongest Nen users around goes against Meruem and just can basically do nothing, nothing at all. Even his secret final Zero attack did so little damage.... But a bomb A fucking....BOMB almost obliterates Meruem A mass produced item almost kills the strongest enemy to this point, effectively rendering Nen fucking useless and pointless. GREAT WRITING TOGASHI I don't care who you are. If you are an organism, unless you have already been exposed to a poison or radiation, they will harm you; also, it was no normal mass produced bomb. The Miniature Rose was a such a dangerous weapon that it was banned in all countries. While I wish that the battle could have ended in a different way, it fits right in with Hunter X Hunter, and it is fair game in this fight. Now if this was how a fight ended in Dragonball or Hokuto no Ken, I would be pissed. |
SkyDemonCannibal said: Yeah but even after gon powered up he faced huge reprecussions from using that much power. FireValkyrie said: It really doesn't matter how many years he's trained for. He's still a human, and the Chimera Ants(especially the king) are so much more powerful than humans that even with nen we can't make a scratch. A bomb however is significantly more powerful than a human and much more destructive, and the King is still a living organism--I'm not really sure why you're surprised. HxH isn't generic powerup shounen. There are humans with some pretty crazy powers, but they're still human, and a bomb of that magnitude will still wreck them. LOL , maybe you should go read that part about Kite dieing and servicing as a plot device for Gon anger and his random ass power up . |
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| Why? The fight was awesome! |
| "Savage Pirate We Love You" |
embracebuddha said: SkyDemonCannibal said: Yeah but even after gon powered up he faced huge reprecussions from using that much power. FireValkyrie said: It really doesn't matter how many years he's trained for. He's still a human, and the Chimera Ants(especially the king) are so much more powerful than humans that even with nen we can't make a scratch. A bomb however is significantly more powerful than a human and much more destructive, and the King is still a living organism--I'm not really sure why you're surprised. HxH isn't generic powerup shounen. There are humans with some pretty crazy powers, but they're still human, and a bomb of that magnitude will still wreck them. LOL , maybe you should go read that part about Kite dieing and servicing as a plot device for Gon anger and his random ass power up . It's not even really a random ass power up, considering he isn't going to be doing that again in a hurry :P so calling it a plot device for a power up is kinda wrong. |
| Does anyone else need a doctor to confirm that someone without a head is dead? |
MikskizO said: So Science > Nen apparently, what's so bad about that? Even though Nen is something above Science, it is still topped by Science after all. |
| Gutalala ~~ sudalala "It would be great to live as a human" -Meruem, King of the Ants |
| Nen useless? The heck? I don't see why a wishing machine can be useless. Can Alluka kill the King with a wish? Yes. He is not immune to Nen. (But with great risk and consequences because that's how Nen works.) Can a Nuke with a powerful poison kill the King? Yes. He is not immune to physical attacks and chemicals. (But with great risk and consequences from testing the bomb, making the bomb, and implanting it to someone with the condition of 'that the bomb will explode if that man's heart stopped') Nen is not useless. Science is not weak. If a random meteor with a size of a small country came out of nowhere undetected and hits the King and Netero -or- a powerful God-like being from a different dimension suddenly came out of a portal and destroy the whole planet, will it kill the King or Netero? Yes. (But that will be Togashi being bad at writing a story) |
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Vesperlynd said: Disagreed too, I would have been displeased if Meruem emerged from that nuke detonation unscathed. However, his death from the radioactive fallout could have been a little less "inevitable" if you know what I mean. Wasn't there a hope in hell that he could have been cured of the sickness? Even if there wasn't enough time/ Pitou was dead, hence unable to heal him, the what ifs could have been explored a little. That said, that dying sequence was the best. Komugi was the perfect foil for this antagonist. You have to remember that what made the poor man's rose special is not just the fact it is a nuclear bomb, but that it spreads a highly powerful poison that self replicates.That is why, unlike nukes, it is completely banned. |
| Meruem is a fine villain and easily the best in HxH by far but his death is absolutely atrocious. Its definitely one of the worst anti-climatic endings Ive ever seen, very uninspired and rushed after being dragged from 100's of chapters. What was the point of overpowering already overpowered character just to die 10 chapters later in such a lame way? We were lead to believe that he would be unstoppable and for Togashi to mislead us and to pull out a plot device like this is disappointing. One of the chapters, we got entire chapter of black pages and their last dying words but it was so much force-feeding its unbelievable. Also to die from radiation illness after being nearly godlike was terrible. We didnt even get full extent of already overpowered pre-nuke Meruem's abilities and suddenly overpowered some more? He pulled Aizen type shit after surviving Netero's nuke. I expect that from Kubo not Togashi. What is even worse is that he died from a nuke! A friggin NUKE!!! He had DNA comprised thousands of species and millions of humans including most of Youpi and Pouf's genes. Someone of Meruem's calibre should've evolved beyond and become immune to man-made weapons making him the force to be reckoned with. To suddenly be defeated like the way he did was anti-climatic. Basically, Togashi stopped when it started getting good. This is why he takes hiatuses; he sits down in a room to come up with what to do in the story. Meruem should be the true meaning of survival of the fittest, an alpha specimen and yet, he got killed by a human invention? Its a shame |
| I'ts not that shame, the fact is none other character in HxH that stronger than Meruem, it's impossible to defeat him with winning phisycal or nen battle. I think Togashi want to end this arc quickly, expecially after long hiatuses. If the ending dragged again maybe Chimera arc is not over until now considering that ending with Komugi is really beautiful |
kouwpee said: well, i also think that the conclusion of this fight is a flaw of this series. i mean, this low budgeted, small, mass produced bomb can kill the king? if it was like philosopher stone from FMA when you need many human lives to make it, then it's okay. but, cheap and can be mass produced? even a real nuke cost a lot of money, and can't be mass produced in a short time. i think the rose is way too OP. even the king, the most OP character in hxh(or is it killua now?:p), takes many human lives to get to the level of strength he has. but togashi didn't really explain any difficulty to make the rose... and about king died because he was poisoned, it's just, why poisoned? i mean, when he introduced the chimera, he made us believe that these creature are capable of many impossible things, beyond human ability and can't be explained scientifically, and then he made the king died, by poison? a normal human way of dying? if a creature can can make a bomb out his living cells, can scatter himself to tiny-particle sized- pieces, then why can't its body make antibody to the poison? why not make its body cell not react with the molecule of the poison? though i prefer the king died from poison instead from exploison because his death with komugi is just beautiful... and another thing that didn't make sense to me, is, why didn't they (hunter association) throw the rose at the very beginning, even before the king was born? or throw it at the palace when people haven't gathered for the selection? and if the rose have to be injcted to someone's heart, why it has to be netero? why don't put it in other random criminals? the most possible explanation that i can think of, is that the power of the destruction of the rose, depends by the strenght of the person injected by it. and i think it converts the strong nen power after dying into a power of destruction (exploison+concentration of the poison?). that's why they (or netero himself) sacrificed netero, one of the strongest hunter alive.if it were just normal people, the effect wouldn't be that powerful. well, thats just my theory though. The comparison between the power of a lifeform, aura or not, compared to that of a thermonuclear device, even if it's "small" or "cheap", is incomparable - the very fact that he managed to survive the explosion for even a few minutes at point blank range shows how incredible Mereum is. As for the "poison", its obviously some sort of radioactive / chemical reaction. Again, while Mereum's strength was godlike compared to that of humans, his body, even if it could synthesize antidotes for biological poisons, chemical / radioactive agents, if strong enough, simply aren't curable through biological means. As for why they didn't use the rose preemptively, there's a few obvious reasons. First, they wouldn't have been able to bomb the hive in NGL, because aside from causing an international incident by nuking a target within the confines of a fully autonomous nation, they had no reliable means of delivering such a device within the allotted time period, which somewhat leads to the second point; the only aircraft shown thus far in HxH's world are relatively slow-moving airships (no jets or airplanes) - there's no way such a craft could approach either the hive or later the palace to deliver the device without being gunned down, destroyed by Youpi and/or Pouf, or simply evacuating the King to a safer locale in the absolute worst scenario. Third, I don't think you quite understand the rose's nature - it isn't "injected" into the heart, but was planted somewhere else in Netero's body. The significance of his heart was simply that the bomb's detonation mechanism was attached to a pacemaker; if his heart stops, it sets itself off. Whether or not he killed himself or just died abruptly in combat, they were assuming it would be in the direct vicinity of the King - he dies, it explodes. A normal person would never have managed to get as close. Netero, while also getting the fight he had always dreamed of, also had assured maximum effectiveness of the Rose's usefulness by being at extremely close proximity to the target. |
| I completely agree. The fight was just underwhelming and anti climactic in so many ways, but then again most HxH fights are anti climactic for whatever reason. I liked the beginning of it though. |
tsudecimoFeb 27, 2014 8:29 AM
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| I think choreography and strategy-wise, the fight was disappointing. However, what the King and Netero represent, and the clashing struggle of those symbols and themes, makes up for it. The only problem I have in regards to the Rose was that it was, IIRC, never hinted at, never foreshadowed, never built up throughout the arc, not once. (Someone do correct me if I'm wrong, my memory isn't fresh.) From us readers' perspectives, it came out of nowhere, and, when something of that magnitude comes so late into the game, that is poor writing, imo. That said, the Chimera Ant arc is one of the best arcs I've ever seen, but it has its flaw(s). (Admittedly the sudden appearance of the Rose is the only one I can think of right now. :P) |
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