| You're suggesting you've special enlightenment on the topic and know things nobody knows. Which makes me even more curious. But I kind of guess, this party are lier. K, they are all, but this one even tried to reinterpret history... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France) It's in the introduction Also, sorry, but I can't trust a party cofounded by collaborationist and other Vichy nostalgic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Gaucher I'm not a professional on this topic. Get my few enlightenment from social worker friend. From legal and illegal immigrant I know (it's quite common in Ile-de-France). And from newspaper. Also spent my childhood in highly intercultural neighborhood, and anyone afraid for his "cultural heritage" is wrong, because this was the best thing ever. And yes, I don't consider being french until this party goes under 10% and our government stop being a shame. I'll just use I live in france. If this topic should be locked for racism, It would be done already. And If you remove some stupid comment there was some quite interesting testimony. Name change is for community dissociation. Some don't need to know I watch so much anime. And I should stop smoking |
HapaxSep 4, 2012 9:52 AM
 I sometime have funky grammar, sorry about that. If you can correct some of my post, you would be an angel. |
BluntZ said: XR said: assets, people bitch about immigration, i.e builders in the UK complaining all the Polish who have come over have stolen their jobs. No they haven't stolen your job they have just done it better than you. Quite bitching and work harder. If you want to live in a capitalist society role with the punches and stop complaining. On another note, fuck capitalism! Fuck capitalism even though it's the most moral and compassionate system towards immigrants? Firstly it was said in jest jrgcool35 said: BluntZ said: XR said: assets, people bitch about immigration, i.e builders in the UK complaining all the Polish who have come over have stolen their jobs. No they haven't stolen your job they have just done it better than you. Quite bitching and work harder. If you want to live in a capitalist society role with the punches and stop complaining. On another note, fuck capitalism! Fuck capitalism even though it's the most moral and compassionate system towards immigrants? While its morality and compassion can be questioned, there shouldn't be any question that capitalism has empowered the lowest classes in developing countries and immigrants from those countries. but secondly what complete and utter bullshit from the two of you. You make capitalism out to be some utopian dreamland for immigrants. Seriously? Hell im not saying that other economic systems are any better but if you think of capitalism as some cuddly care bear system that looks after the interests of immigrants then you are sorely mistaken. It allows immigrants to enter into a country in order to exploit them for cheap labour. Yes rather contradictory to my last statement, but that was in reference to a very UK specific topic. In general i believe that immigrants tend to be a good thing for a countries economy, but the way in which they are exploited ,BY CAPITALISM, is not. Please explain to me in what way capitalism has empowered the masses? I am dying to know what you have stumbled across which i seemed to have missed after 3 years of studying it (capitalism) and almost every other economic system. Because in pretty much EVERY academic article, book etc it tends to be of the opposite vein to what you just said. Its not like 80%-90% of the wealth in the US is in the hands of just 15-20% of the populace or anything... ( estimated figures from memory i would have to double check the statistics if you want to go into the real details) |
XRSep 4, 2012 9:56 AM
 |
XR said: but secondly what complete and utter bullshit from the two of you. You make capitalism out to be some utopian dreamland for immigrants. Seriously? Hell im not saying that other economic systems are any better but if you think of capitalism as some cuddly care bear system that looks after the interests of immigrants then you are sorely mistaken. It allows immigrants to enter into a country in order to exploit them for cheap labour. Yes rather contradictory to my last statement, but that was in reference to a very UK specific topic. In general i believe that immigrants tend to be a good thing for a countries economy, but the way in which they are exploited ,BY CAPITALISM, is not. Note, I actually specifically mentioned that capitalism's "morality" and "compassion" can be questioned, and not that it was "some cuddly care bear system." Back to the point though, immigrants come to more developed, service based economies because their home country's wages are much lower, and service based economies such as the US have an abundance of low wage jobs that people from said countries don't want to do, but are still better than the amazingly bad conditions they usually come from. Capitalism isn't some mystical force that pulls immigrants in and makes them work crap jobs. XR said: Yes rather contradictory to my last statement, but that was in reference to a very UK specific topic. In general i believe that immigrants tend to be a good thing for a countries economy, but the way in which they are exploited ,BY CAPITALISM, is not. Explain how they are being exploited if they are able to obtain jobs many times better than what they could get in their home countries? XR said: Please explain to me in what way capitalism has empowered the masses? I am dying to know what you have stumbled across which i seemed to have missed after 3 years of studying it (capitalism) and almost every other economic system. Because in pretty much EVERY academic article, book etc it tends to be of the opposite vein to what you just said. Its not like 80%-90% of the wealth in the US is in the hands of just 15-20% of the populace or anything... ( estimated figures from memory i would have to double check the statistics if you want to go into the real details) That first statement is a complete lie, and you know it. There is plenty of academia available that explains how capitalism is a positive driving force. Addressing your point though, you can easily look at modern India and China and see the growing improvements since they adopted capitalistic systems. XR said: Because in pretty much EVERY academic article, book etc it tends to be of the opposite vein to what you just said. Its not like 80%-90% of the wealth in the US is in the hands of just 15-20% of the populace or anything... ( estimated figures from memory i would have to double check the statistics if you want to go into the real details) What does that have anything to do with how Capitalism is a force for improving immigrant's lives? And btw it's something more like the top 10% hold 73% of the US' wealth. Oh, and by the way, drop the sarcasm it really isn't necessary. Additionally, I'd like to make sure we understand that we're talking on general terms, there are definitely cases of exploitation that exist in any system, and these shouldn't be ignored. |
armegSep 4, 2012 12:12 PM
| Shameless self-promotion: http://www.pernerple.com/ Slyr3do0n said: MAL is the dark underbelly of the anime community. While other naive fanboys and fangirls run around in real life forming clubs and squealing in deafening high pitch noises about their favourite animus, we remain here, meticulously dismantling the credibility of each and every show, until all that remains is a steaming pile of tropes and ass pulls which we then devour to gratiyfy our glutinous and masochistic desires. |
XR said: BluntZ said: XR said: assets, people bitch about immigration, i.e builders in the UK complaining all the Polish who have come over have stolen their jobs. No they haven't stolen your job they have just done it better than you. Quite bitching and work harder. If you want to live in a capitalist society role with the punches and stop complaining. On another note, fuck capitalism! Fuck capitalism even though it's the most moral and compassionate system towards immigrants? Firstly it was said in jest jrgcool35 said: BluntZ said: XR said: assets, people bitch about immigration, i.e builders in the UK complaining all the Polish who have come over have stolen their jobs. No they haven't stolen your job they have just done it better than you. Quite bitching and work harder. If you want to live in a capitalist society role with the punches and stop complaining. On another note, fuck capitalism! Fuck capitalism even though it's the most moral and compassionate system towards immigrants? While its morality and compassion can be questioned, there shouldn't be any question that capitalism has empowered the lowest classes in developing countries and immigrants from those countries. but secondly what complete and utter bullshit from the two of you. You make capitalism out to be some utopian dreamland for immigrants. Seriously? Hell im not saying that other economic systems are any better but if you think of capitalism as some cuddly care bear system that looks after the interests of immigrants then you are sorely mistaken. It allows immigrants to enter into a country in order to exploit them for cheap labour. Yes rather contradictory to my last statement, but that was in reference to a very UK specific topic. In general i believe that immigrants tend to be a good thing for a countries economy, but the way in which they are exploited ,BY CAPITALISM, is not. Please explain to me in what way capitalism has empowered the masses? I am dying to know what you have stumbled across which i seemed to have missed after 3 years of studying it (capitalism) and almost every other economic system. Because in pretty much EVERY academic article, book etc it tends to be of the opposite vein to what you just said. Its not like 80%-90% of the wealth in the US is in the hands of just 15-20% of the populace or anything... ( estimated figures from memory i would have to double check the statistics if you want to go into the real details) The United States is a mixed economy. Far from capitalist. I admit my choice of words were a bit hyperbolic but my only point is that capitalism is the most empowering economic system towards immigrants that we know of. It's the only system where any type of prejudice (refusal of employment) costs the employer. You can't force morality on people. As jrgcool35 said, your blanket statements on capitalism are complete bullshit, especially when the basis of the argument is "compared to what?". I can give you thousands of credited academic articles that say otherwise. Look up Milton Friedman for example, nobel laureate in economics. Without capitalism, we wouldn't be communicating right now. |
BluntZSep 4, 2012 2:59 PM
Movie of the Week Humanity and Paper Balloons ( Sadao Yamanaka, 1937 ) If you are a fan of (or simply interested in) Japanese films then please join the Cinema of Japan club! Thank you (: |
| I would definitely not use Friedman to advance an argument on capitalism I know hes mad famous or whatnot but you do realize that Friedman shaped Reagan's economic policies and that did fail America in 2007 when the crash occurred right he always talked about his free market being the best or whatnot but his policy tanking shows a great deal of his influence in economics (same with a lot of capitalists, not really all that correct) Friedman's positions on say morality or war on drugs and even say business honesty is something to look at, his ideas are very interesting and good to analyze (eg. Businesses have no need to protect people (Ford Pinto '73?)) his debate on that was very interesting, on utility bills, etc. Friedman's pretty spot on when he talks about his free market but he closed his mind off after that and he began to surround himself with different ideas (eg. a freer econ is a freer people) or (a free market will always right itself (iron hand?)) there are contradictions there-sometimes Friedman will talk about a free market being great and yet he'll talk about how government intervention could help the poor. Overall hes mad influential but his thoughts aren't always coherent or in a straight line he basically credits capitalism with everything too which is fairly extreme and stuff that not a lot of capitalists do (for good reason, ofc). last sentence is a counterfactual too like the russians built a better railroad system in ~2 years at the start of say ww2 than America will probably ever have for instance just replace 80s, 70s, Reagan with Friedman (Friedman was an economic adviser to Reagan) and you'll get my point |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
jrgcool35 said: Note, I actually specifically mentioned that capitalism's "morality" and "compassion" can be questioned, and not that it was "some cuddly care bear system." Back to the point though, immigrants come to more developed, service based economies because their home country's wages are much lower, and service based economies such as the US have an abundance of low wage jobs that people from said countries don't want to do, but are still better than the amazingly bad conditions they usually come from. Capitalism isn't some mystical force that pulls immigrants in and makes them work crap jobs. Explain how they are being exploited if they are able to obtain jobs many times better than what they could get in their home countries? If you said that the morality and compassion of capitalism can be questioned I apologised but that certainly isn’t how you put it across. I won’t argue that these jobs are better than those in their home country, but that isn’t the problem. Immigrants, due to their lack of understanding of labour laws more often than not end up being exploited. It often goes unnoticed as capitalism is a system does not pay attention to those in the lower wage brackets. Also the last line of that is simply idiotic. It’s like saying “ well they came from a warzone so paying them half the minimum wage and putting them in a crack den to live with their children is ok because it’s better than getting blown up by a bomb,” that logic is so flawed and it just makes you seem downright ignorant. jrgcool35 said: That first statement is a complete lie, and you know it. There is plenty of academia available that explains how capitalism is a positive driving force. Addressing your point though, you can easily look at modern India and China and see the growing improvements since they adopted capitalistic systems. No, no it isnt, there are very few academics that would seriously consider capitalism as an economic model that works to the benefits of immigrants and those in the lower wage brackets, any that do simply cherry pick the facts so blatantly it verges on David Irving style idiocy. The majority of academia that advocates capitalism is simply based on economic growth, i am talking about the social obligations to immigrants and their treatment within the system. Friedman is an exceptioon and the only reason the man is so highly regarding is because he preaches to the choir. The man would never equate any mistakes to the free market even if it bit him in the arse and shagged his mother. For all the intelligent informed theory the man produced I found his writing almost intolerable. Also are your seriously going to use China and India as examples of improvement? Yes those countries are growing in terms of power and economic clout, but really? One of the richest countries in the world that still has one of the lowest average wage among the top 10 economic super powers and is still an undemocratic, unelected authoritarian government that stamps out dissent brutally ( just look at the lead up to the Olympics and the human rights record China has.) Workers rights are almost nil, working conditions are more often than not appalling, and hours are still horrendous. So bad infact that the workers at foxconn ( that produce all the apple computer parts) staged a mass protest threatening to commit suicide unless conditions improved. Oh and India it has had a capitalist system for nearly a century now and still has some of the worst poverty in the world. Also the only reasons both these countries have growth at such a rapid rate is because they have such a large workforce that can be exploited, made to work unhuman hours for little or no pay. This is a direct result of the capitalist system, if i really have to explain why I feel like I will scream. jrgcool35 said: What does that have anything to do with how Capitalism is a force for improving immigrant's lives? And btw it's something more like the top 10% hold 73% of the US' wealth. Oh, and by the way, drop the sarcasm it really isn't necessary. Additionally, I'd like to make sure we understand that we're talking on general terms, there are definitely cases of exploitation that exist in any system, and these shouldn't be ignored. I have already said that other systems are no better, but portraying capitalism as some sort of champion of immigrants and workers’ rights is just down right laughable. Wow you pull me up on a statistic which you dragged from wiki when i clearly said that i was recounting from memory and in fact my stats, rough as they were, are in line with the ones you gave anyways. The whole system caters to the rich, allowing them to grow richer at the expense of those in the lower wage brackets, which are often comprised of a large percentage of immigrants. The only reason capitalist societies function is because they have people to exploit, overseas and at home. It’s all related and if you can’t see that i pity you, or maybe envy in fact. I would love to be oblivious to the facts and be happy with the system i live in. This is not to say i have the answers. Neither am I a revolutionary or an anarchist who wants to smash the capitalist system. I do believe that capitalism could be restructured into a more socially responsible economic model, which doesn't rely on the exploitation of others , immigrants included, in order to push forward economic growth. BluntZ said: The United States is a mixed economy. Far from capitalist. I admit my choice of words were a bit hyperbolic but my only point is that capitalism is the most empowering economic system towards immigrants that we know of. It's the only system where any type of prejudice (refusal of employment) costs the employer. You can't force morality on people. As jrgcool35 said, your blanket statements on capitalism are complete bullshit, especially when the basis of the argument is "compared to what?". I can give you thousands of credited academic articles that say otherwise. Look up Milton Friedman for example, nobel laureate in economics. Without capitalism, we wouldn't be communicating right now. Wow, just wow. To your first statement, the US is the epitome of a capitalism economy, Please enlighten me as to the other aspects of this “mixed economy”. How does refusal of employment in any way cost the employers? And no you cannot force morality on people, that’s a personal choice, but you can create a system that makes it harder to be immoral. Very simple. My argument is not comparing systems, I have said I don’t have the answers, but just accepting capitalism because we don't have an immediate alternative is just defeatist. Why should we settle for a system of exploitation which benefits such a small percentage of people? I’ll tell you why most people accept it though, because they hope one day they will have that money, that one day they will be the 1% but the grizzly truth is that the majority of people will never be “rich”. Also using Friedman is always treading on thin ice, but Regicide has already covered that point rather well to be honest. |
XRSep 5, 2012 4:24 AM
|
XR said: The whole system caters to the rich, allowing them to grow richer at the expense of those in the lower wage brackets, which are often comprised of a large percentage of immigrants. The only reason capitalist societies function is because they have people to exploit, overseas and at home. It’s all related and if you can’t see that i pity you, or maybe envy in fact. I would love to be oblivious to the facts and be happy with the system i live in. This is not to say i have the answers. Neither am I a revolutionary or an anarchist who wants to smash the capitalist system. I do believe that capitalism could be restructured into a more socially responsible economic model, which doesn't rely on the exploitation of others , immigrants included, in order to push forward economic growth. Sorry waited to use thisone |
HapaxSep 5, 2012 6:47 AM
I sometime have funky grammar, sorry about that. If you can correct some of my post, you would be an angel. |
Hapax said: Sorry waited to use thisone yes, I'm also a feminist a conservative and a liberal, it depends what topic you are talking about. They are just labels, they dont mean shit, i dont subscribe to one school of thought. One might say thats contradictory, i just says its keeping an open mind. Lol. There are lots of positive aspects of various different schools of thought, none are perfect, i prefer to have my own mish mash of ideals rather than being a sheep ;). sorry just saw your comment on the bottom of the vid teehee :P |
XRSep 5, 2012 7:32 AM
|
| Just a joke on making concession :) Btw I also have no straight thought or subscribe to one school. And I'm not educated enough to have one anyway I have to upload the entire episode... |
HapaxSep 5, 2012 8:20 AM
I sometime have funky grammar, sorry about that. If you can correct some of my post, you would be an angel. |
itschantal said: As long there is no war in their country, they can stay there. There is a crisis and many people lose his job because of those immigrants cause they are cheaper. "ITS ALL THE IMMIGRANTS FAULT" BURN THEM THEY WORK FOR LESS MONEY THEN US let us create a party we shall call it the nativist party we shall then ban all immigrants from our borders yay mission accomplished i mean like people saying econ crises are due to immigration have literally no clue how an economy works in america, eg. demand faltered which created an expansion in the credit industry which was taken out mostly on homes. do you see where i'm headed here credit eventually contracted because PEOPLE DIDN'T pay back their money then the market would crash being artificially inflated to such a level that makes no sense where are there immigrants here nowhere |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
Regicide said: itschantal said: As long there is no war in their country, they can stay there. There is a crisis and many people lose his job because of those immigrants cause they are cheaper. "ITS ALL THE IMMIGRANTS FAULT" BURN THEM THEY WORK FOR LESS MONEY THEN US let us create a party we shall call it the nativist party we shall then ban all immigrants from our borders yay mission accomplished i mean like people saying econ crises are due to immigration have literally no clue how an economy works in america, eg. demand faltered which created an expansion in the credit industry which was taken out mostly on homes. do you see where i'm headed here credit eventually contracted because PEOPLE DIDN'T pay back their money then the market would crash being artificially inflated to such a level that makes no sense where are there immigrants here nowhere well said sir, i also find it funny how some Americans bitch about immigration when all of them originally came from immigrant stock, and mainly European at that...... |
|
itschantal said: I don't even live in america, never been there. has very little to do with my comment tho |
| ~"The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." (Pirsig) |
Regicide said: itschantal said: I don't even live in america, never been there. has very little to do with my comment tho sorry probs down to my comment, although not directed solely at her, I'm sure thats how it could have been interpreted. It was more of a passing thought than anything as it seems there are a lot of yanks on this site. |
|
| i thought it is good since it creates jobs |
| RRRRRRRRRR |
| As long as they're legal, no problem. |
| They're a great asset. |
Wecc said: All hail HaXXspetten king of the loli traps!  |
| Goddammit Beavis. |
| He actually uses search, I'm like, really surprised. I would like some immigrants as my future employees. |
| The real reality of it is. Who cares? I mean cosmically this issue means nothing, just like all human problems. |
 |
Regicide said: you're only complaining cause you're european am i right or am i right all i know is that there are some small immigration problems in the netherlands tho not like england, for instance (correct me if i'm wrong here) there are a few interpretations to the problem so i'll list them down: economic 1: immigrant labor generally empowers the upper class because of its labor union crushing power- as well as this, it also reduces demand because wages are given out at a small amount to the lower classes and while the upper class becomes richer the contraction of aggregate demand will sink the national economy. This doesn't exactly matter since capitalism will naturally destroy its own economy in cycles anyway (boom+bust) but I don't see how immigrants will exacerbate the problem more than say financiers greed, excessive extension of credit, or conservative fiscal policy that naturally lowers the power of labor social 1: "they took our jobs" has no basis in anything except for some form of strong nationalism. ie. why are these specific jobs yours, for instance? Tho this does lead to excessive hate of specific groups and eventual discrimination. economic 2: on the other hand the opposite effect of econ 1 can take place-> in America while immigrants started out as heavily discriminated eventually tho labor force for immigrants/the national poor (the ethnic proletariat in your country) can either separately or in combination inflate the conditions for the lower class in the country and create better living conditions and a better economy in general (this happened in america post 1920s up till about the 80s) So true. Especially the first point about illegal immigration empowering the upper class. |
| It's not the immigrants, it is the ones who try to take advantage of people, ignore law and undo workers priviliges that were hard-earned with the blood of their great grandfathers. Labor has become a race to the bottom, which ultimately creates regression. The "prosperity" only exists in the pockets of the few. |
Infinite said: Goddammit Beavis. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
Infinite said: Goddammit Beavis. what |
| RRRRRRRRRR |
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