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ssjokg said: Nightwire said: Just finished this at last. Sad to say I didn't enjoy it as much as a lot of shows I've watched. The level of cruelty was massively over the top (and it's made worse by the fact that I read up on Kirei's 'servant contracts' that involve children). Even in the end, this show gives almost no respite. The show left a bitter taste that I won't soon miss. However, it was quite good. It made me think a lot, the animation was great, and I really enjoyed some of the characters. Overall, I give it an 8/10. Very tempted to give it a 9, but most anime I've watched leave me wishing it wasn't over, sometimes for a very long time. I'm literally quite happy to be done with this show >_>. That alone warrants a point deduction for me. Not this shit again. Especially with FMA in your favs... This was a really long ass time ago, but I feel like replying anyway. FMA wasn't nearly as bad as Fate/Zero. Not even close. No little girls were raped by millions of worms for years, no children were crucified for amusement, none were kept in a basement and used as an energy source for...forever afaik. Really, you can't use FMA to say that I can't call Fate/Zero needlessly cruel. The worst thing I recall from FMA was Nina, and perhaps the general thought of what Gluttony does to people as often as he gets the chance. Both of those scenarios are at least quick(ish..) deaths. I'm sure there were some other things, but none quite as bad as what goes on in F/Z. Not that any of this actually matters. FMA is in my favorites because it was good enough to be worth whatever issues I had with it. Fate really wasn't. Most unsatisfying conclusion I've ever seen. Nice buildup, but the ending just served to piss me off, essentially. |
| So lets ignore that a father fused his daughter and dog because it was quick.....ok. Was it necessary for the plot?Yes.Same for FZ's.All this "over the top" cruelsome scenes mattered to the plot.Complaining about cruelty in a series where everyone wants to kill each other is crazy. Not FZ's fault that nobody seems to understand that this is a prequel. |
ssjokg said: So lets ignore that a father fused his daughter and dog because it was quick.....ok. Was it necessary for the plot?Yes.Same for FZ's.All this "over the top" cruelsome scenes mattered to the plot.Complaining about cruelty in a series where everyone wants to kill each other is crazy. Not FZ's fault that nobody seems to understand that this is a prequel. I never said to ignore Nina's situation at all - I brought it up. I'm also not saying that the events of Fate/Zero don't serve the plot, to an extent. What I am saying is that in FMA, it wasn't as ridiculous. I hate to reiterate, but we're talking about years of child gang rape by worms, child crucifixion (among other things), and child batteries stored in a basement, where they are left to rot after they have served their use (though this last one occurs after the events of the anime). I've had this argument in the past, but it never ceases to amaze me how anyone can say with any amount of seriousness that these things aren't a bit extreme. I'm not saying the show needs to be protested and removed from society, I'm just saying that the cruelty goes way beyond what I can possibly imagine was really necessary. It was gratuitous, and detracted from my enjoyment of the show. The creator of the series isn't known as Urobutcher for no reason, and he seems to have a vendetta against kids in general (see: Madoka (which I just finished about a half hour ago and didn't find it nearly as bad as I expected to)). FMA knew when to use cruel moments to show a harsh reality, but also when to cut that **** out and give the viewers some respite. Also, it being a prequel is irrelevant, as is the fact that 'everyone is trying to kill each other'. None of the cruelty I've described was against anyone that was trying to kill anyone, nevermind the fact that most of the killing intent was directed at already dead spirits, active serial killers, and at least 1 person that wasn't even human to begin with. In any case, it isn't as if I didn't give Fate/Zero a fair rating. It was good most of the time. |
| Why is it that being a prequel is irrelevant?The ending is exactly what I should be in order to match the first series.Urobuchi didnt write it alone.The only thing he wrote alone was Caster's scenes and they are as bad as Kirei's actions in FSN. It doesnt mater at who is the cruelty directed at.You are watching a series where almost everyone has the intention to kill others, some in the most brutal ways possible.Over the top cruelty shouldnt surprise anyone. At least it isnt Battle Royale where regular highschool students just transform into the world's most vicious serial killers for no real reason(background). |
ssjokg said: Why is it that being a prequel is irrelevant?The ending is exactly what I should be in order to match the first series.Urobuchi didnt write it alone.The only thing he wrote alone was Caster's scenes and they are as bad as Kirei's actions in FSN. It doesnt mater at who is the cruelty directed at.You are watching a series where almost everyone has the intention to kill others, some in the most brutal ways possible.Over the top cruelty shouldnt surprise anyone. At least it isnt Battle Royale where regular highschool students just transform into the world's most vicious serial killers for no real reason(background). Oh, the only thing that Urobutcher wrote alone were the scenes of child torture. That makes even more sense, actually. Thanks for letting me know. In any case, you don't seem to comprehend the nature of what I'm saying at all. Killing people is not the issue. Everything I've said has had to do with a level of cruelty towards nameless characters. Torture of tons of small children. Brutaility towards the main characters - people that signed up for a supernatural death match - was tame in most cases. It's as simple as that. Maybe you just don't actually know what I'm talking about if you didn't see any uncensored scenes, or check any information on the wiki when you finished the series. I don't think most of the things I'm talking about were shown overtly if you didn't. Check here: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=406817 Or just check episode 6 and 9 uncensored, or caster's introduction. If you can look at any of these things and call them comparable to the things that happened to the main characters, or don't believe that any of this was over the top and really wasn't absolutely necessary to the plot of the show, then I have nothing more to say on the matter. It just means you're extremely desensitized, and that seems to be the standard for a lot of people these days. I have no interest in joining you in shrugging off scenes like that. Having read some youtube comments on at least one of these, some people actually love everything about caster and these scenes. I call that being highly disturbed. To address what you've said about it being a prequel - that's fine. If you're referring to my earlier comment about the ending being unsatisfying, then that makes sense. However, I don't see what Darker than Black has to do with anything. Aside from it being completely unrelated, you yet again equate killing with torture. They really are rather different. People beg for death when they're tortured. |
Nightwire said: ssjokg said: Why is it that being a prequel is irrelevant?The ending is exactly what I should be in order to match the first series.Urobuchi didnt write it alone.The only thing he wrote alone was Caster's scenes and they are as bad as Kirei's actions in FSN. It doesnt mater at who is the cruelty directed at.You are watching a series where almost everyone has the intention to kill others, some in the most brutal ways possible.Over the top cruelty shouldnt surprise anyone. At least it isnt Battle Royale where regular highschool students just transform into the world's most vicious serial killers for no real reason(background). Oh, the only thing that Urobutcher wrote alone were the scenes of child torture. That makes even more sense, actually. Thanks for letting me know. In any case, you don't seem to comprehend the nature of what I'm saying at all. Killing people is not the issue. Everything I've said has had to do with a level of cruelty towards nameless characters. Torture of tons of small children. Brutaility towards the main characters - people that signed up for a supernatural death match - was tame in most cases. It's as simple as that. Maybe you just don't actually know what I'm talking about if you didn't see any uncensored scenes, or check any information on the wiki when you finished the series. I don't think most of the things I'm talking about were shown overtly if you didn't. Check here: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=406817 Or just check episode 6 and 9 uncensored, or caster's introduction. If you can look at any of these things and call them comparable to the things that happened to the main characters, or don't believe that any of this was over the top and really wasn't absolutely necessary to the plot of the show, then I have nothing more to say on the matter. It just means you're extremely desensitized, and that seems to be the standard for a lot of people these days. I have no interest in joining you in shrugging off scenes like that. Having read some youtube comments on at least one of these, some people actually love everything about caster and these scenes. I call that being highly disturbed. To address what you've said about it being a prequel - that's fine. If you're referring to my earlier comment about the ending being unsatisfying, then that makes sense. However, I don't see what Darker than Black has to do with anything. Aside from it being completely unrelated, you yet again equate killing with torture. They really are rather different. People beg for death when they're tortured. You dont have to show me the uncen pics or even the manga pages, the LN goes in depth with what he does so you are actually lacking in content.... You dont seem to to comprehend the nature of what I'm saying either.Those are people that dont care if they kill for their personal gain.It isnt "justified" killing, you can never justify it.They are still cold blood murderers.And yes torturing those nameless children is important to show the personality of those two characters.They are crazy, evil, psychopaths for their reasons.Caster even has a "real" historical background filled with those actions.Why would the (almost) same character act differently or why should the series not show those scenes, especially when they achieved what they aimed for?Make the viewers hate the actions of those characters. Desensitized?Because I see nothing bad with having over the top cruelty in a series, justified both by the characters and the plot?(Unlike my previous example) Yes there are fucked up people out there that love those scenes.There are also those that think that they make anime (or anything)more mature.And then there are the trolls. I have seen people here that say that Matou Shinji(Sakura's step brother in FSN,doesnt appear in FZ) is better as a character, should be liked more by the heroines and that he has reasons for his actions.What is so bad about it?Well read here http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Shinji_Matou Were they trolls or some shitheads that should be locked in a cage I dont know. Darker than Black?Yes DtB is completely unrelated.But I didnt talk about it. Both killing and torture take away basic human rights.It's just what you personally see as worse because of experience(honestly I dont think you,me and the vast majority here(pretty sure all) have that) or what you have seen in other anime, movies, series etc. Both are extremely bad(if you have morals) and taking one of them lightly isnt right. |
ssjokgMay 17, 2014 10:59 PM
| Don't you mean that by losing Kirei won? Kirei didn't hate Kiritsugu. He thought that he was like him and hoped he would find some meaning if he met/fought him. During the dream he realized that he wasn't the same. |
ssjokg said: Don't you mean that by losing Kirei won? Kirei didn't hate Kiritsugu. He thought that he was like him and hoped he would find some meaning if he met/fought him. During the dream he realized that he wasn't the same. Kirei did not "win". "Winning" would mean finding out someone like him and reason for him to exist. The realization that that will NEVER happen is exactly what losing is in this case. Not to mention the fact that Thus in the end, there's no "winners" in this war. Every single decision leads to a loss, unless you chose not to play (what Waver did) |
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| Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. |
ssjokg said: Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. It's more like he was the one that got screwed over the least between the two. I don't think anyone besides Waver can actually claim they were rewarded in this war. |
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Botato said: That's why I limit it between Kiritsugu and Kirei.ssjokg said: Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. It's more like he was the one that got screwed over the least between the two. I don't think anyone besides Waver can actually claim they were rewarded in this war. Waver got more than he hoped for. |
ssjokgMay 19, 2014 10:50 AM
Botato said: ssjokg said: Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. It's more like he was the one that got screwed over the least between the two. I don't think anyone besides Waver can actually claim they were rewarded in this war. ^this is correct. Just because Kirei found all the outcomes he suffers from this amusing, does not mean he did not lose. Holy Grail took away the chance he had to become a mapo chef. |
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souledge94 said: Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. Why wait? Jump on the hype train o.o |
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souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. ^ This. Aoi had quite a lot to do with Kariya's motivations. Kariya's inherent hatred towards Tokiomi too. |
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souledge94 said: Botato said: souledge94 said: Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. Why wait? Jump on the hype train o.o I dont really watch subs.I like watching my anime dubbed. I am in the dubs>subs camp, but I find following seasonal anime to be a really enjoyable experience. Not to intrude or anything, but if you never watched subs I suggest you try them once because some anime you might really like never get dubbed. (Example for me would be Gosick) |
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souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. Well yea but that was his main goal.of course he wished for more and what he wished for wasint bad or anything.Doesint make this end any less tragic or sad. I'm sure you noticed that staying hidden and trying to avoid most conflicts, instead of letting Berserker go berserk against Archer and trying desperately to murder Tokiomi, would have been much smarter and would have helped Kariya's goals to win the Grail and save Sakura more. Then again, his mind was already screwed by the worms for a whole year at this time, so this is kind of a redundant point. The end was sad and tragic perhaps, but that depends. While wishing for the happiness of the people he loved is pretty selfless and noble, how he meant to achieve that was not. What really is perhaps tragic is that neither Aoi nor Tokiomi were able to understand Kariya's intentions, just as Kariya didn't understand Aoi or Tokiomi's feelings. Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. |
| The LN clearly says that if not for the worms and how he had deteriorated,he would have figured out that Kirei was messing with him. So yeah ....fuck you Zouken. Uryuu and Caster are probably the best pair in any war ever. |
C-Core said: Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. This is true. Fourth War was basically one huge pile of misunderstandings between people who had no idea just into what they got themselves into. Sadly the only one who tried talking in this war was a centuries old tyrant who almost conquered the world and employed torture. These people needed Nero. |
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souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. Well yea but that was his main goal.of course he wished for more and what he wished for wasint bad or anything.Doesint make this end any less tragic or sad. I'm sure you noticed that staying hidden and trying to avoid most conflicts, instead of letting Berserker go berserk against Archer and trying desperately to murder Tokiomi, would have been much smarter and would have helped Kariya's goals to win the Grail and save Sakura more. Then again, his mind was already screwed by the worms for a whole year at this time, so this is kind of a redundant point. The end was sad and tragic perhaps, but that depends. While wishing for the happiness of the people he loved is pretty selfless and noble, how he meant to achieve that was not. What really is perhaps tragic is that neither Aoi nor Tokiomi were able to understand Kariya's intentions, just as Kariya didn't understand Aoi or Tokiomi's feelings. Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. I saw nothing wrong how he meant to achive those goals.Only unnoble thing you can proboly say was he intention of killing tokiomi though since hes a crap father and a prick I still sense nothing wrong with it.His team up with kiirei wasint really wrong at least to him since at that point I believe he didint know kirei was mr bad guy.He just knew if he teamed up he had a chance of winning. It was wrong to team up with him. A mentally well Kariya would knew better than to trust the priest. |
| ^ Agreed. Not to mention that at that point not only was he unstable because of the worms, he was also very desperate because he was running out of options. |
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souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. Well yea but that was his main goal.of course he wished for more and what he wished for wasint bad or anything.Doesint make this end any less tragic or sad. I'm sure you noticed that staying hidden and trying to avoid most conflicts, instead of letting Berserker go berserk against Archer and trying desperately to murder Tokiomi, would have been much smarter and would have helped Kariya's goals to win the Grail and save Sakura more. Then again, his mind was already screwed by the worms for a whole year at this time, so this is kind of a redundant point. The end was sad and tragic perhaps, but that depends. While wishing for the happiness of the people he loved is pretty selfless and noble, how he meant to achieve that was not. What really is perhaps tragic is that neither Aoi nor Tokiomi were able to understand Kariya's intentions, just as Kariya didn't understand Aoi or Tokiomi's feelings. Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. I saw nothing wrong how he meant to achive those goals.Only unnoble thing you can proboly say was he intention of killing tokiomi though since hes a crap father and a prick I still sense nothing wrong with it.His team up with kiirei wasint really wrong at least to him since at that point I believe he didint know kirei was mr bad guy.He just knew if he teamed up he had a chance of winning. Tokiomi's death brings Aoi as much happiness as a human needs water in his lungs. Kariya's love for Sakura and Rin is an extension of his feelings for Aoi and his wish to start a family with her. There is a very selfish aspect in his dreams. He didn't think outside of his box. He never considered Aoi still loved Tokiomi. You sense nothing wrong about killing Tokiomi? I absolutely despise people who think this justifies murder, which in this case is conveniently covered, since both Tokiomi and Kariya are participating in the Grail War. As stated above, Kariya would never have trusted Kirei, if his mind was still healthy. Most likely, his conversation with Tokiomi would have turned out differently, too. |
souledge94 said: Aoi was a useless mother and doesint deserve the right to be called a mom so anything negative happening to her doesint really bother me at all.I feel bad for the kids not the parents.I know Kariya loves Aoi but in the end he will go out his way to help sakura even if his body is wrecked even if he doesint get his happy ending with Aoi he still cares enough for the kids to try and at least make them happy.Even though Kariya was upset that he wasint the one to get with Aoi if Tokiomi wasint a prick and a bad father im sure murder wouldint be on his mind however Tokiomi are those things so I say im fine with him being in the sights. Of course Aoi can't do much. Unlike you, she lacks deeper knowledge of pretty much everything. What she learns in episode 10 is that Kariya tries to kill Tokiomi because he wants to save Sakura. He gives her a half-assed explanation (which I don't even count as an explanation) that he looks like that because of the Matou magecraft, but "Sakura will be fine if I win the Grail, so please cheer me on, okay?". Try to think of what is going on in Aoi's mind instead of simply bashing her. She simply cannot understand Kariya. It sounded like "I'm gonna return your daughter for some undisclosed reason and btw, I WILL ALSO KILL YOUR HUSBAND". I think it's reasonable to focus on the part you understand. Parents do what they think is best for their children so she accepted Tokiomi's decision, thinking he did what is possibly best for Sakura. You don't care about Aoi's fate, but that is the crucial part here, because it matters to Kariya, was that so difficult to understand or what? He is horrified when he realizes that the person he just strangled was Aoi. Part of why he wants to save Sakura is because he wants to play the hero for Aoi. And Tokiomi is the bad, bad villain for him. Kariya wants a happy ending with Aoi. And that is exactly why Urobuchi made him suffer. He can't stand people who think like that. Or at least he crushes people who think this way. He reused this with Sayaka in Madoka Magica. If magi have more than one child, they won't let the younger children know about the secret of magic, they let them live normal lives as humans. In fact, telling more people about the secret weakens the mystery in general, which is why the Association stops any attempts to leak magic to the public. Here's the thing again, Tokiomi deeply regrets that he cannot give Sakura and Rin that choice to live as humans or as magi. In his mind, there is simply no other way than for them to become magi. "ććå¾ć¬" is the term he used when he thought about the secret of magic being shared, which means "it can't be done". The meaning is more along the lines of "If you aren't one of the great prominent houses, telling anyone besides the heir about your magecraft is impossible." Giving Sakura away to become the heir of another family was the best outcome that he could have imagined. I don't think he was capable of recognizing any other better options and there hardly are. He tries to spare Sakura from either death or a fate worse than death. That does not make him a prick. That he gave her to Zouken and with it full responsibility over her makes him a bad father, that we can agree on. I think I can see the point of ignoring her and cut all ties now, but that doesn't mean I didn't see the flaws either. The ultimate end of what MatÅ Kariya seeks is only the showdown with TÅsaka Tokiomi. Not considering his chances of winning, in the event that he was in the end victorious over Tokiomi and furthermore obtained the Grailā at that time, what will Kariya face? ... It did not even require thought; it must be his own darkness. Originally for the sake of helping Aoi reclaim her daughter, but now to claim the life of Aoi's husband. Of this contradiction he seemed still unaware, no, rather than say he is unaware, one might say he is, because of the jealousy and selfishness of his heart, intentionally deceiving himself, hiding this feeling. When facing that bloodstained victory, MatÅ Kariya will definitely sink into the dilemma of having to face the ugliness of his own heart. Crest Worm insanity or not, nothing justifies trying to kill Tokiomi here, no matter what you say, because his mind doesn't think in a way where he is simply doing it to win the war. "I want to save Sakura, which unfortunately requires me to fight Tokiomi" is not Kariya's mindset during the Grail War. It's "I want to save Sakura, and to do that I will do everything possible to fight and kill Tokiomi". You make it sound like Kariya wasn't able to get Aoi. That is not the case. Zouken was setting those two up in their childhood because she literally has a great magic womb. But it's not like Aoi ever saw more in Kariya than something close to a sibling. Kariya couldn't even talk to her normally. |
CapsuleCoreJun 1, 2014 3:12 PM
| Ugh I wanted to like this ending but I just couldn't As a non-VN reader, I was just confused and unsure about what was happening the whole time. The Grail scenario was vague last episode, and it was worse this time. I assume the fire occurred because of the contents of the grail were unharmed, but I had to read that on the boards (amongst other conflicting opinions), and sure as hell couldn't tell in the episode. I wasn't sure what happened to Archer until I read it as well. Went "what the fuck dumb" about Kirei. And I'm still not sure what that Kariya thing was. It was just confusing all around, directed by someone who knows the source and forgets other people don't. Everything felt hamfisted and loose ended into an opening situation for F/SN, which might be necessary but did not conclude the series well. Lackluster. I'll rate the series an 8 though. |
NinahJun 8, 2014 1:06 AM
yaddayadda said: The Grail scenario was vague last episode, and it was worse this time. Considering the show pretty much spells out that Grail is evil, I don't see how that was vague. And I'm still not sure what that Kariya thing was. I don' t see how that was confusing. The show made it quite clear on what happened to him and how. It was just confusing all around, directed by someone who knows the source and forgets other people don't. Everything felt hamfisted and loose ended into an opening situation for F/SN, which might be necessary but did not conclude the series well. That's because its a faithful adaptation of a prequel, thus yes it assumes one knows information presented in FSN(the real FSN, not the previous shitty adaptation that f/0 ignores) and can fill in the gaps. |
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yaddayadda said: Lackluster. I'll rate the series an 8 though. Read the VN, then re-watch F/Z with that mindset. Worked for me. |
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| This series is quite the work of art, I loved everything about it - the plot, the characters, the animation and the soundtrack as well ^_^ I would re-watch it anytime. |
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Fai said: Considering the show pretty much spells out that Grail is evil, I don't see how that was vague. In the last discussion, there were lots of posts asking what happened and presenting conflicting opinions. It seemed like the Grail would grant the wish by making his family the last humans on earth, but that wasn't clear in the episode at all. It was just raining blood - pretty vague. I don' t see how that was confusing. The show made it quite clear on what happened to him and how. What happened? Was it a hallucination? I thought he'd already died. If it was real, how did he make it out of the hellfire alive? and can fill in the gaps. Yeah, and that's why I made the "necessary but does not conclude" comment. This series probably works well for VN readers. But as a standalone, the ending was definitely disjointed and choppy. |
yaddayadda said: This series probably works well for VN readers. But as a standalone, the ending was definitely disjointed and choppy. Because it isn't supposed to be a standalone. |
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| Supposed to or not, thousands before and after me will watch this and only this. |
yaddayadda said: Supposed to or not, thousands before and after me will watch this and only this. So? It is still a prequel that is reliant on other works. Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. |
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Ninah said: It seemed like the Grail would grant the wish by making his family the last humans on earth, but that wasn't clear in the episode at all. In Kiritsugu's whole sequence, Angra Mainyu/Iri talks to him and shows him that his miracle will be realized by using his method to kill the minority to save the majority. This will go on until the only two people that are left are Iri and Ilya and Iri tells him that this is the final realization of his prayer. Kiritsugu decides to refuse this offer and betrays the expectations of the Grail with these words: "Six billion people against two members of my family... I'll kill you and save the world." Just to remind you again what happened. This isn't confusing at all, most people simply don't pay attention. It's stated pretty clearly that everyone else will die if Kiritsugu makes his wish. Ninah said: What happened? Was it a hallucination? I thought he'd already died. If it was real, how did he make it out of the hellfire alive? Of course it was an illusion. You're making false assumptions, he didn't already die. In the last episode, Kariya has enough strength in him left to leave the city hall, walk past the burning fields and go to Sakura and tell her that they should go. Suddenly the scene switches to Rin in the park thanking Kariya for bringing her back. Huh, okay. Then however you see Aoi healthy and happy and the scene switches back to Kariya lying on the ground and becoming worm food with Sakura calling him a fool. I'm baffled why so many people are confused about this, it's pretty clear he was hallucinating. If Shirou, a boy of 6 or 7, can go through the burning fields for a time unharmed, before losing his strength, Kariya can do it too. He wasn't directly hit by the Grail mud or anything. Botato said: Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. This. Enough said. |
CapsuleCoreJun 10, 2014 3:44 AM
| Actually Kariya WAS in the City Hall. "Sometimes, a broken machine did not simply and silently give up functioning. On rare occasions, it could surprisingly continue working. The fact that Kariya was able to crawl back to the Matou mansion in Miyama was one of these very rare examples. In fact, Kariya's physical body itself had been in a very dangerous state for the past few months. Had he not been driven forcibly by the prana that had been concentrated by the Crest Worms, he would not have been able to move. Moreover, in the condition that the Crest Worms had died under the heavy burden of Berserker�s rampage, Kariya should have only been able to quietly wait for death to come. But even so, Kariya had stood up from the ground of the basement, and escaped the City Hall that was close to collapsing. Then he crossed the burning streets and walked the long night road that traversed Fuyuki City. This was a miracle fulfilled with no thanks to the Holy Grail." Most of citizens(that is everyone except a few children)died because the fire happened after 02:00 AM. Even a cripple that has a vague idea of what is happening would be able to escape.Especially if he wasnt in the City Hall when the mud come down. |
ssjokgJun 10, 2014 3:54 AM
| No need to remind me of that. Actually, I immediately edited this out, while you were writing your message. |
C-Core said: No need to remind me of that. Actually, I immediately edited this out, while you were writing your message. Dont make look like a fool man...Me doing that is already enough..... *edits posts" |
Botato said: So? It is still a prequel that is reliant on other works. Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. I disagree. Wrong is too strong a word. What sort of anime show expects its viewers to read the LN beforehand? Adaptations are meant to reach new audiences through new mediums. It's perfectly valid to criticize FZ as an isolated story. C-Core said: I'm baffled why so many people are confused about this, it's pretty clear he was hallucinating. Thank you for the thorough explanations. They make sense now. As for why I thought he was dead, I'd read here that that was the reason why Saber was able to kill Lancelot, though it wasn't shown onscreen or something. But I would've assumed it anyways, since there was a shot of his head falling down etc. It's a reasonable thing to assume. Plus when he went to Sakura's house, it was such a disconnected setting that I thought it was part of the hallucination. Though you might've thought it was pretty clear, what matters is that many people didn't. That means something. Ergo, the end was not clear yadda yadda |
Ninah said: Botato said: So? It is still a prequel that is reliant on other works. Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. I disagree. Wrong is too strong a word. What sort of anime show expects its viewers to read the LN beforehand? Adaptations are meant to reach new audiences through new mediums. It's perfectly valid to criticize FZ as an isolated story. Oh who made up that fact? There is no such rule. Especially when adaptations are aimed to the already existing fanbase. It isnt an original story that requires outside knowledge. coughNGEcough Ninah said: C-Core said: I'm baffled why so many people are confused about this, it's pretty clear he was hallucinating. Thank you for the thorough explanations. They make sense now. As for why I thought he was dead, I'd read here that that was the reason why Saber was able to kill Lancelot, though it wasn't shown onscreen or something. But I would've assumed it anyways, since there was a shot of his head falling down etc. It's a reasonable thing to assume. Plus when he went to Sakura's house, it was such a disconnected setting that I thought it was part of the hallucination. Though you might've thought it was pretty clear, what matters is that many people didn't. That means something. Ergo, the end was not clear yadda yadda No the reason Saber killed Lancelot was because Kariya's mana was fully consumed.Someone collapsing does not equal death. The scene was pretty clear.Just because some people cant imagine someone walking after passing out doesn't make it unclear. |
ssjokgJun 10, 2014 5:00 AM
Ninah said: Botato said: So? It is still a prequel that is reliant on other works. Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. I disagree. Wrong is too strong a word. What sort of anime show expects its viewers to read the LN beforehand? Adaptations are meant to reach new audiences through new mediums. It's perfectly valid to criticize FZ as an isolated story. I don't know what is there to 'disagree' about, fact is F/0 is part of a big franchise. It's definitely wrong to treat it on its own as a standalone. Yes you are right, an adaptation is meant to reach more people in different mediums, And F/Z anime is a brilliant adaptation of the novel. However, just like its source material, it is STILL a prequel to F/SN VN and shouldn't be considered a standalone. So let me get this straight, if you read the F/0 novel you would have no problems with the ending. However, if you watch the anime - which adapted the novel pretty accurately- the ending is lackluster, even though it's the same? |
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Botato said: So let me get this straight, if you read the F/0 novel you would have no problems with the ending. However, if you watch the anime - which adapted the novel pretty accurately- the ending is lackluster, even though it's the same? Mindblown much? |
| [quote=Botato] Ninah said: So let me get this straight, if you read the F/0 novel you would have no problems with the ending. However, if you watch the anime - which adapted the novel pretty accurately- the ending is lackluster, even though it's the same? No. It's a simple matter of confusion. If I had read the F/0 novel, I would have no problems with the ending because I would understand everything that had happened and been free to enjoy the quality adaptation. But because I hadn't read the novel, I feel like I noticed clumsy narrative, disconnects, and vagueness - stuff that a reader wouldn't notice if they're familiar with the material. As a reader, you can't just erase your knowledge and claim that everything was easy to understand anyways. What you guys insist was so obvious has no impact on my side. |
Ninah said: Botato said: So let me get this straight, if you read the F/0 novel you would have no problems with the ending. However, if you watch the anime - which adapted the novel pretty accurately- the ending is lackluster, even though it's the same? No. It's a simple matter of confusion. If I had read the F/0 novel, I would have no problems with the ending because I would understand everything that had happened and been free to enjoy the quality adaptation. But because I hadn't read the novel, I feel like I noticed clumsy narrative, disconnects, and vagueness - stuff that a reader wouldn't notice if they're familiar with the material. As a reader, you can't just erase your knowledge and claim that everything was easy to understand anyways. What you guys insist was so obvious has no impact on my side. How about I have not read the light novel before watching the anime, and wasn't confused? Also, I was talking about the ending. Some explanations for what happened are present in F/SN, because F/0 is a prequel it assumes you have knowledge of it or you are planning on reading it sometime. That's why it's wrong to treat F/0 on its own. EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, I watched this anime straight after DEEN's anime. There were a few things that I didn't understand about the grail because I had 0 knowledge of important parts of the VN (mainly the third route, Heaven's Feel). But now all is good, because I looked at the whole picture not just a part of it. |
BotatoJun 10, 2014 5:27 AM
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| What more should the anime had done for someone to understand "clearly" that Kiritsugu had to make a choice and that Kariya was hallucinating? It has nothing to do with having read the LN. It s about viewers making the effort to think, analyze what they see. Botato said: NOt to mention the FSN anime that will air in fall.Ninah said: No. It's a simple matter of confusion. If I had read the F/0 novel, I would have no problems with the ending because I would understand everything that had happened and been free to enjoy the quality adaptation. But because I hadn't read the novel, I feel like I noticed clumsy narrative, disconnects, and vagueness - stuff that a reader wouldn't notice if they're familiar with the material. As a reader, you can't just erase your knowledge and claim that everything was easy to understand anyways. What you guys insist was so obvious has no impact on my side. How about I have not read the novel before watching the anime, and wasn't confused? Also, I was talking about the ending. Some explanations for what happened are present in F/SN, because F/0 is a prequel it assumes you have knowledge of it or you are planning on reading it sometime. That's why it's wrong to treat F/0 on its own. |
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