| After Asakos thread on Rule 8, a conversation snowballed on #myanimelist on what is wrong on these delightful little fora of ours – and more importantly, how to fix it. This thread is the result. It seems to be the broad consensus MAL's fora have gone quite wrong; whether it is or not, will not be discussed on this topic. What will be discussed is how to make it better. Any post which does not amount to this will be deleted, and possible other reprecussions might follow. Whether Xinil will actually follow up on these or not is up to him; he is a busy man, and I cannot guarantee anything, nor do I or any other mod have significant powers. These are the suggestions #myanimelist came up with, preliminary:
Expand, critique, or perhaps acclaim (though do more than acclaim - no "this" posts, please). For clarity, here's how the forum would look like from the main page: Many thanks to the brave, intelligent, sexy, and otherwise absurdly talented fellows over at #myanimelist for practically writing this post. And likewise to all who reply; to make this a better place. And lastly to Xinil; for taking our concerns into consideration. |
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| Awesome suggestion, thumbs up from me. Hopefully this can save the falling Giant :) |
"Oh, look a black cat - The Matrix" If you are a guy or a girl, go out and give someone a smile. You will change someones life forever. Here is a smile for you :D because you are awesome, never let anyone convince you otherwise. |
| I support all of the suggestions. These really are needed for a better, more organized forum. There are problems with trolls and what-not - I believe enforcing these things will help a great deal. I especially like the ban messages. I have seen them in other forums and they work quite well. They give a clear example of what users should not post, and gives the forum a feeling of being moderated.  We know Xinil is busy, but these require little(if no) coding work, so they should be easy to enforce. It is up to him whether they will happen or not. |
CheezyAug 1, 2010 11:21 AM
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| As far-reaching as this may sound to some, these measures are absolutely necessary for the betterment of MAL. In fact, i'd call this more of a minimum requirement. |
| I also strongly support this idea and i really hope to see it implemented some time in the hear future. |
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| In my opinion I think the Intro board should be kept as it is. Or a sub-forum of Casual Discussion if that ever gets around to being done. The way I see it, when someone makes an intro thread they have a chance to make some friends and get to discussing anime/manga faster with others. I feel that if there's a sticky thread to replace this, then depending on the rules of it, new intros would pile up in it without much response. On the post count note, I think that if removing post counts are going to be done, then it should be visible on your profile only. That, or replace it with a "Your Recent Posts" button or something. Other than those two points, I agree with and support all the other suggestions. |
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| This is also a shining example that we do still have forum mods out there actively taking a role in the community and that they are still helping out the forum as a whole. They're lacking manpower right now, but the fact that even such a few of them have managed to work together with us users to come up with a sensible list of suggestions and solutions should be taken into account. They're always the first to get criticized (I must admit I had a tendency to shift the blame onto them) but this discussion helped bring to light that they really are doing all they can. :3 Akamitsu said: That's definitely something we were discussing. Having an intro thread in the hypothetical Casual board also means it's closer to other threads where new members can socialise with other members of the community quite quickly. This way, if it's linked in with another active forum like Casual would be, there would be a great chance of people posting in it.In my opinion I think the Intro board should be kept as it is. Or a sub-forum of Casual Discussion if that ever gets around to being done. |
KappakaAug 1, 2010 11:07 AM
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| supporting ofc. |
| If you make a Tech board, K_N and me oughta be moderators for it. As for the other stuff, you post counts can go screw honestly. But yea, more mods please. Seriously. OH yea. BTW. Please nuke the pedophila clubs. Or the site probably will be taken down. All it would take is ONE report to a child protection advocacy group and MAL would go down faster than you could blink. |
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| What's the point of any of this if our posts DON'T FUCKING SHOW UP |
| Dropping FAL from the forum index? I hope you just forgot it or I can't approve. Everything else is a go I guess. Edit: Oh, and renaming Tech to Science/Technology might be a better idea. Allows a broader range of discussion and we can dump some of those stupid "I'M HAVING EXPLOSIVE DIARRHEA BUT I'D RATHER ASK MAL THAN MY DOCTOR WHAT'S WRONG PLZ HALP" threads there. Or those can go to Spam. Either way, they need a place outside of GD. |
Xjellocross said: I think that was just us forgetting it because no one mentioned leaving it out when we were discussing stuff~Dropping FAL from the forum index? I hope you just forgot it or I can't approve. Everything else is a go I guess. |
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| I don't think the Introduction should be removed, just don't make posts count in it, and yeah, remove post count All together. I support All the other suggestions mentioned above. |
SweetMoniaAug 1, 2010 11:36 AM
 ~Vive La Miémorrina~ Play Lolita Caramel | Admire My Artworks Follow Me On Twitter | Read My Drawing Blog |
LolitaDecay said: Yeah, I just forgot it. Sorry about that.Xjellocross said: I think that was just us forgetting it because no one mentioned leaving it out when we were discussing stuff~Dropping FAL from the forum index? I hope you just forgot it or I can't approve. Everything else is a go I guess. ALSO. No need to mention you want to be moderators. Mentioning this will alone be a heavy disqualifier, in fact. We have our methods for choosing. But thanks for the interest in helping us! |
KaiserpingvinAug 1, 2010 11:36 AM
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent <img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" /> |
Xjellocross said: That's an idea.Dropping FAL from the forum index? I hope you just forgot it or I can't approve. Everything else is a go I guess. Edit: Oh, and renaming Tech to Science/Technology might be a better idea. Allows a broader range of discussion and we can dump some of those stupid "I'M HAVING EXPLOSIVE DIARRHEA BUT I'D RATHER ASK MAL THAN MY DOCTOR WHAT'S WRONG PLZ HALP" threads there. Or those can go to Spam. Either way, they need a place outside of GD. Then again, Science and Technology are similar, one would do fine too, as long as it is clear what can and can't be discussed in the forum. |
| Excuse my little outburst above. To clarify: I fully support this, but I feel it's in vain unless Xinil sorts this site out. It's been slow and eating posts for months now, other websites never have such problems the last for so long. It's like we're being lied to or something. |
| I'm giving my full support for this too. |
| I would add a music section as well, it's been asked many times before, and there're a lot of music related threads in GD and Anime discussion. Or maybe it's considered as Culture? |
HooHiraiBunny said: Would fall under culture.I would add a music section as well, it's been asked many times before, and there're a lot of music related threads in GD and Anime discussion. Or maybe it's considered as Culture? Along with art etc. |
HooHiraiBunny said: I'd count that as Culture yes; music might be a bit too narrow. If you want music specifically, there is an excellent (though dead-ish) club for it.I would add a music section as well, it's been asked many times before, and there're a lot of music related threads in GD and Anime discussion. Or maybe it's considered as Culture? |
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent <img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" /> |
HooHiraiBunny said: I'd say that comes under culture :3I would add a music section as well, it's been asked many times before, and there're a lot of music related threads in GD and Anime discussion. Or maybe it's considered as Culture? If not, definitely under casual. |
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| But is there really need for more subfora? When you look at GD, there's a bunch of threads that actually belong to Spam but apart from that I don't see a problem, it's not being flooded with new threads. Also, is Xinil the only one who can appoint or remove moderators? If, for example, Kaiser and Asako could do that the problem with lack of moderators would probably be solved in no time. |
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| Hey but uhhhh, seriously, take down those clubs. They're fucking disgusting. All it would take it one report and MAL would be nuked =\ |
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| This thread is about the forum, not clubs. |
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Kaiserpingvin said: Ah okay, but it's going to be chaotic in this case. HooHiraiBunny said: I'd count that as Culture yes; music might be a bit too narrow. If you want music specifically, there is an excellent (though dead-ish) club for it.I would add a music section as well, it's been asked many times before, and there're a lot of music related threads in GD and Anime discussion. Or maybe it's considered as Culture? We will need tags in thread titles or something like this. |
corbenic said: yep.Also, is Xinil the only one who can appoint or remove moderators?. |
HooHiraiBunny said: And a better search engine for the forum, but that can come later.Ah okay, but it's going to be chaotic in this case. We will need tags in thread titles or something like this. |
~Vive La Miémorrina~ Play Lolita Caramel | Admire My Artworks Follow Me On Twitter | Read My Drawing Blog |
corbenic said: The problem with General discussion is that it really is turning into another Spam. In order to separate these spam threads it would be easier to dedicate special forums to the topics that get talked about most in there. This allows moderators (if we can get special mods for each forum section) a smaller area to moderate thus cutting most of the crap that ends up in there. It looks a lot when listed how it is in the OP but when put into practise with the forum context it wouldn't look too swamped.But is there really need for more subfora? When you look at GD, there's a bunch of threads that actually belong to Spam but apart from that I don't see a problem, it's not being flooded with new threads. Viperslayer said: The people who can deal with that are aware~ Working on it etc.Hey but uhhhh, seriously, take down those clubs. They're fucking disgusting. All it would take it one report and MAL would be nuked = |
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corbenic said: But is there really need for more subfora? When you look at GD, there's a bunch of threads that actually belong to Spam but apart from that I don't see a problem, it's not being flooded with new threads. Also, is Xinil the only one who can appoint or remove moderators? If, for example, Kaiser and Asako could do that the problem with lack of moderators would probably be solved in no time. Well, we found that it is pretty hard for there to be any sort of guidelines for what people actually can post or not when they are called "General Discussion" and "whatever isn't general discussion". This includes basically everything, and promotes very poor threads. Dividing them as in the first post wouldn't exclude any sort of thread which we would want (wquite a few we wouldn't); make the forum more organised, and so on. I can see how it is sort of a vague concern, though. Also, yes, only Xinil can appoint and remove moderators. |
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent <img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" /> |
| Well anyway,since many people agree with it.Maybe I just follow the crowd..... but I really hope this strict changes doesn't scare off the children(entertainment) in the forum. |
MorningGloryAug 1, 2010 12:16 PM
| I give my stamp of approval for this. Also I'd all for an own music subforum under culture or wherever. |
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| if we really split it all up then a music subforum would be nice. But all this change is scary, you know. I do hope for change though, so please everyone support the mods! We definitely need more mods, and I wish all mods responded to my reports.... ;-; Sometimes I report something and nothing happens for weeks. Especially stuff like hugs sigs etc. I am really anal I think about stuff.. |
| The current forum is inhabitable, but I'd like to see that change. These suggestions seem like a good way to address some of the big issues. |
| I'm 100% for this. Though if there is another word besides Serious as a section that'd be cool. windy said: corbenic said: yep.Also, is Xinil the only one who can appoint or remove moderators?. |
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| Sounds good. I personally like having post counts as a record of my own forum activity but this place looks like it could do without them for the better, so I won't complain if they go. One thing to add: Someone else should be given admin powers. A single person who's barely even active is not nearly enough. One more at minimum, two would be better (to keep a balance of power). |
| It is an excellent idea. I think that it will make things better on the forums. |
 Where there is no imagination there is no horror. || Arthur Conan Doyle || Happy Halloween! |
| If you create a music subforum then, logically, there should also be one for movies, tv shows, books... it's most definitely overkill. |
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corbenic said: If you create a music subforum then, logically, there should also be one for movies, tv shows, books... it's most definitely overkill. Better yet, create an Entertainment subforum to include all of them. |
Redfoxoffire said: corbenic said: If you create a music subforum then, logically, there should also be one for movies, tv shows, books... it's most definitely overkill. Better yet, create an Entertainment subforum to include all of them. But I guess that would pretty much be the same as the culture subform so maybe there shouldn't be a music subforum after all... |
| A music subforum just seems a bit much. I mean, we've already got quite a few new ones if this comes into play. Definitely overkill. |
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| IN HYPOTHETICAL LAND (WHERE XINIL LOEV CODING) THIS WILL WORK 100%: There should be a ban that just bans people form the forums and/or a rec/review ban. This would allow mods to ban people from the forums without as much restraint (so they can enforce the rules on small infringements) and would stop people from trying to make a second account for their list or whatever. Trust me, it is a good idea. |
| I give my full support for this and I do hope to see some improvement. I agree 100% on removing post count, it's utterly useless and just leads to people spamming. |
CapellaStar said: True that, but I would rather have it called culture forum, where you can talk about music, movies, books, languages, customs and anything like this, I am afraid if it was called "Entertainment", people will only post fun stuff in it, just see how wrong things has gone in Spam just because of the name.I think an entertainment sub forum would be nice to talk about non-anime related tv, movies, music but like others have said, it might be too much. |
SweetMoniaAug 1, 2010 1:46 PM
~Vive La Miémorrina~ Play Lolita Caramel | Admire My Artworks Follow Me On Twitter | Read My Drawing Blog |
| Better subforuming would be great, especially renaming Spam to casual chat. My only fear in that would be the explosion of millions of chat threads, but that's just a personal gripe. Would threads like club advertisements still be thrown into this new board, or will they just be locked/deleted? Some of my other thoughts thoughts, don't know if the irc'ers have already gone over any of these: One possible problem with subforuming is the fact that as you increase the number of subfora, the chances of crossover between two boards increase. I can easily envision many threads that could fall either in technology of serious discussion, which makes keeping things orderly more difficult. ============= It would be nice if every board had a sticky that served as a compendium of common topics that have already been done before with links. There's a thread like this in the Support board, so why not have it in all of the boards. Hopefully this will reduce the amount of duplicate threads that pop up all over the place. ============= The MAL awards board is redundant, as every thread originates from a Creative Corner contest. Either these MAL awards need to be opened up more to have awards for those with less creative ability, or this needs to be a subboard of the creative corner. ============ Remove Introductions board and replace with a stickied thread. I think it's much easier for a new member to find, since many users don't bother to use look at stickies. My general disgust for the intro board aside, it does a good job of keeping intro threads in one place. However, if post counts stay, THEY SHOULD NOT COUNT ON INTRO BOARDS. It's pretty fucking obvious when you look down the entire board and see the same user posting "Hi, welcome to MAL ^_^b!" over and over that the person is there just to +1 ========== MAL could also use a sort of help board, where users can make "Help me with________" threads. GD and support are often flooded with threads like these, so a dedicated subforum could see plenty of use. ========== More moderators, possibly some specific to each subforum (still global, but with a stated focus). Specific moderators ensure that rules are more coherently enforced, which is an important factor in them actually being followed. It also decreases workload. I think part of the problem is that at any point in time, there is a thread that has been derailed, or is in the wrong place, or whatever, and nothing is done about it, even when I send in a report. I know that you guys are probably swamped with work/have lives of your own to worry about, but as a lowly peon, it's frustrating to see things that should be fixed that are just left hanging there. To add to my frustration, I don't see all the mods doing work. Maybe they're busy doing behind the scenes stuff, but as far as I'm concerned, I only see a couple of mods regularly modding and a couple of mods occasionally modding and the rest are rocks as far as I'm concerned. I'd love to send abuse reports every day if I knew that they would help improve MAL, but sometimes the response time can be frustratingly slow. ========== No music subforum. Go use last.fm or whatever if you want that much of a specialized forum to discuss music. Culture is good enough, and allowing music is the first step down a slippery slope. One possible option is to replace Games with Entertainment, which would encompass games, movies, and TV, whereas Culture covers music, books and arts ========== That's all for now. edit, this is my 3rd time trying to post this |
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Kaiserpingvin said: This alone would drastically change the forums. Too many kids trying to get the high score on their post counts instead of thinking about ways to contribute to the topics at hand. I support this 110%. |
Kaiserpingvin said: Remove post counts. They contribute nothing but incentive to make useless posts. I agree but I would suggest leaving the post count on the profiles. Some clubs do require a certain amount of posts for members to get certain things that the club offers. Although if they were done away with completely these clubs wouldn't have that limit. As I just contradicted myself I'll just remain neutral and leave this as a suggestion. |
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Remove Introductions board and replace with a stickied thread. /signedRemove post counts. /signedOverhauled rules: More enforced, less vague, and generally easier to implement – harsher, clearer guidelines for banning. The forum moderators will convene to draft the new rules in this direction. Rules should be just guidelines + a few very strict ones (porn images, illegal sites, etc.)If the guidelines are so strict members don't really agree with them, what's the point? I mean to who's benefit are they? Rules that forbid posting in threads over X months old, or creating threads that resemble other threads, or banning comments such as "thank you" or quote&agree style posting are some good examples of nonsense rules that serve no one. They usually come from some false notion of "(my biased) order = utopia" and such, even though they do little then: break discussions apart, or clobber discussions together (it takes just one crappy thread, and the hole topic is kaput forever! with rules against duplicate topics), or just create these nonsense situations (on some forums moderators will actually delete your thankyou posts). In short: rules should just expand on commonsense and the site's legal policies; not some personal agenda of the moderators, which you seem to be suggesting. Freedom of speech in a discussion is a good thing! For clarity, here's how the forum would look like from the main page: I see the same problems I have with the one we have now. Here's a simple alternative layout:====================== MyAnimeList Café News, The List of Lists Support and Suggestions Anime Database, Character Database, Manga Database MyAnimeList Contests Anime and Manga Recomendations! Anime, OVAs and Movies Lounge Last Updated: Sora no Otoshimono, Beelzebub, Bleach, more sub-forums... Manga and Novels Lounge Last Updated: Sora no Otoshimono, Beelzebub, Bleach, more sub-forums... ====================== (I just used 3 as a example, but probably displaying the last 10 for both anime and manga would be good) Short summary and notes:
From my experience, the more forums there are the more disjoint the community is. While fewer forums with very clear purpose and if need be special rules to defend serious discussion always bring good discussion and create active communities. These days (unfortunately) this monolithic giant hierarchy style for forums seems to be all too common, they are NOT in your users (our!) best interest. If anything your 3 levels of forums is really annoying. Most people just want to see the "thread list." Actually I don't think anyone actually cares much for the "forum list." The only purpose of the forum list is to split up the thread list so its more clear. Forums were originally just one thread list with categories anyway... (this idea/ideal is still getting a lot of love) Splitting it up into every possible category is most certainly a bad idea! Is this a technology forum? no. So then you don't need 7 topics for Technology, one will do. :) Simple rule of thumb: all forums should be perfectly balance. No forum should be too active or too inactive compared any other forum. Anyway. Just my 2cents. |
VindictusAug 1, 2010 3:37 PM
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| If post counting goes, there should be no reason to get rid of introductions. As a few other people have already mentioned, new members could easily skip over a stickied thread for introductions and spam the forums with endless "hai guyz" threads. The main problem people seem to have with the introductions is people just posting there to +1 their post counts. Without post count, nobody loses anything by keeping the introductions around. I suggest we lose post count and keep introductions. |
zharnotczarAug 1, 2010 4:29 PM
Vindictus said: Rules should be just guidelines + a few very strict ones (porn images, illegal sites, etc.) [...] In short: rules should just expand on commonsense and the site's legal policies; not some personal agenda of the moderators, which you seem to be suggesting. Freedom of speech in a discussion is a good thing! You seem to be reading far too much into this than was intended. Not weird, as it was vague - it is however vague by necessity, while I and some other moderators agree the rules are problematic (and several other members agreed), we do not necessarily agree in what way, and we would have to discuss between each other to come to a consensus on that matter. And while it may not seem that way, we do try to make sure the rules serve the community, and not our eventual tastes for it. The rules are not meant to be draconic: just clearer, and punishment for transgression easier to adjudicate and beyond just a deletion of the post. As it were, no one is hurt by forbidding +1 posts; while the overall quality of the forum increases by their absence. Bumping old threads isn't a problem however; that is exactly what we encourage (as long as the bump serves a purpose and isn't a "this" or "how sick). MisterSaito said: Would threads like club advertisements still be thrown into this new board, or will they just be locked/deleted? Personally I'd just delete them, that's just me though. MisterSaito said: One possible problem with subforuming is the fact that as you increase the number of subfora, the chances of crossover between two boards increase. I can easily envision many threads that could fall either in technology of serious discussion, which makes keeping things orderly more difficult. Hm. If they did, keeping them where-ever they started out would probably be a good policy? The important part, as far as I see it, is what is omitted and therefore faux-pas, more than the order the dividing would have. It would be nice if every board had a sticky that served as a compendium of common topics that have already been done before with links. There's a thread like this in the Support board, so why not have it in all of the boards. Hopefully this will reduce the amount of duplicate threads that pop up all over the place. Yessss. I think part of the problem is that at any point in time, there is a thread that has been derailed, or is in the wrong place, or whatever, and nothing is done about it, even when I send in a report. I know that you guys are probably swamped with work/have lives of your own to worry about, but as a lowly peon, it's frustrating to see things that should be fixed that are just left hanging there. To add to my frustration, I don't see all the mods doing work. Maybe they're busy doing behind the scenes stuff, but as far as I'm concerned, I only see a couple of mods regularly modding and a couple of mods occasionally modding and the rest are rocks as far as I'm concerned. I'd love to send abuse reports every day if I knew that they would help improve MAL, but sometimes the response time can be frustratingly slow. I readily admit I do not even do half the work I should minimally do, yes. The lack of PMing the last few weeks has thrown us of on answering reports, but I can't say I was all that good at it earlier either. I will get better. Please continue to report, anyway, if ever so slightly inclined. One thing I forgot to put in the first post, which also came up in IRC:
But no doubt many of you already do this. Those of us who abandoned the fora in annoyance they were not as great as we'd like would perhaps made a better influence if they instead contributed, is all. selective_yellow said: IN HYPOTHETICAL LAND (WHERE XINIL LOEV CODING) THIS WILL WORK 100%: There should be a ban that just bans people form the forums and/or a rec/review ban. This would allow mods to ban people from the forums without as much restraint (so they can enforce the rules on small infringements) and would stop people from trying to make a second account for their list or whatever. Trust me, it is a good idea. I want this it's shiny |
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