Why Griffith Did Nothing Wrong Part 1

RandomPerson9348 said:

"If you do then you're supporting exploitation and manipulation."

"If you disagree with this post then you don't understand how consent works and I'm concerned for the women in your life."

...

...

I would look up the definition of manipulation before calling someone out. Because saying that someone is inherently bad and supports bad things because they disagree with you is a peak example of it.

There's one or two people in this thread who are genuinely willing to have a conversation with you, but you would rather call names and tell them that they are bad people because they aren't licking your boots.

Maybe if you tried to be a little less self-absorbed and narcissistic, you would stop trying to protect a character who was written to be the definition of evil. If the writer himself believed that Griffith deserved anything less than the worst fate possible, then the story would be a whole lot different.

PeripheralVision said:
Except that removing the human intent render his malevolence as not only less than human, but makes him less of a character with any sort of agency. To me, saying that Griffith was essentially "mind-controlled" and void of any and all culpability, or however you want to put it as makes him a fumdanetal non-character. To me, this makes his character and the journey he took far less engaging than it otherwise would be.

There is a reason I bring up Brightburn in a comparison with Homelander from The Boys. Brandon is less engaging as a character once you remove any semblance of agency that Homelander does. So it of course depends on your interpretation, but any interpretation that voids both Griffith and Femto of any wrongdoing by issue of these fundamentally changes is fundamentally erroneous, if I understand your point. Maybe I do not. 

It could be that you are saying we should hate Femto instead then? To me, that position actually has some semblance of sense; however, if Griffith willingly gave up his humanity in the way that you describe, than that still makes him culpable for what Femto did, especially if you consider his feelings towards Guts to be something he never handled in a healthy manner. Which well...we see how that turned out. This is essentially Griffith putting himself under the influence of a supernatural drug. You could perhaps argue a drunk driver never intended to get into an accident, but it was reckless all the same. Griffith should by your interpretation be reckless and selfish.

Though to bring it back to the Eclipse and the killing themselves, I would not say consent is what you think it is. First and foremost, Griffith hearing that his men consent from people other than his men is complete rubbish. Consent is something that you have to hear out of the horse's mouth. I would also argue that the Band of Hawks loyalty to "die" for Griffith should not be taken to be applicable in every circumstance. There is a big difference between dying in battle and being torn apart by demons, something that Griffith was definitely aware of. You could argue that Griffith did not see the difference, and to be fair both are not pleasant ways to go. However, his men certainly did, and most anyone would understand that there is some difference in opinion here, just as there is a difference between a battle and a massacre. This is made all the more potent by their culture at the time regarding conflict and death.

Necessity is not considered a defense towards murder, and this goes back to the case of R v Dudley and Stephens, which seems to be more relevant here than whatever mentall illness you want to ascribe towards Griffith. I say this for a number of reasons.

1. Griffith was given foreknowledge of his life if he did not make the Eclipse. He was alive. 
2. Because of number #1, we could then determine that the choice was between becoming a member of the Godhand and not a member, rather than whatever lack of consent you want to ascribe to Griffith.
3. Because of #1 Griffith was therefore not threatened by the Godhand, but tempted and manipulated.

I do not know about you, but if someone has to kill hundreds of people to be restored to their former health, then that makes them a murderer. At least with Dudley and Stephens, they were faced with the prospect of literally starving to death, which I consider of far greater imminence than what Griffith was going through. You could argue that temptation and manipulation would have made Griffith not complicit in the Eclipse, but the important part was that he made that choice. Simply being told things from otherwordly beings did not fully eclipse Griffith culpability, especially if a driving force was also his need to spite Guts for his "betrayal". Are we also going to ignore the fact that Griffith attempted to rape Casca pre-eclipse after being rescued?

It is a pitiable choice, but still something considered wrong. To me, Griffith engaging in this is him reasserting his power over others, something that has been a discussion on the cultural value of sex for quite awhile. To which I want to address you. There is a reason why I quoted this line of yours from that video.

Many people dislike and hate Griffith for what he has done while still thinking he is one of the most well-written characters in fiction. I say this because at your age, I was a know-it-all too who had difficulty understanding the opinions of others, and honestly? Maybe we will always disagree on this topic, and that much is fine. However, I do urge you to at least be cognizant of how condescending you and I could be. A good point to keep in mind is to discredit the position, but minimize any and all assumptions about the people who hold them, at least the negative ones.

I think Griffith is a well-written character, and I hate him. Those two are not mutually incompatible. To give you advice, i would say that instead of saying "appreciating how well-written Berserk is", appreciating the more nuance parts of Griffiths' arc might be better. The former implies that you, a 19 year old is somehow alone in "understanding" Berserk. Please understand how you are coming across to others.

I also want to address this portion.



Do you not understand what you are implying here when you make a statement like this? Am I a rapist for disagreeing over you over the culpability of a fictional character in a work as complex as Berserk?



Mental illness is a pretty broad category of mental health issues. Not everyone who has depression is completely broken from reality that some people with paranoid schizophrenia are, just like borderline personality disorders. I say this because this part and your video on legality touch on two very, very complex areas that I am certainly no expert in myself. The law and mental health. I am sorry if it appears that I am condescending to you, but I speak from experience as both a former 19 year old and a still self-centered 27 year old who makes these mistakes all the time. I think you possibly meant "psychotic disorder", which is what you seem to be referring to in the original post here.

If you are curious, I do have a response for that by the way on what Griffith was experiencing was not the same as a psychotic disorder.

It is very difficult to know what we do not know. I do not know how little I know about the law because I am not in the legal profession, and I doubt you are as well.

I am also worried that you included a video on a Jordan Peterson AI, though I have to even begin watching it.

kei-xh said:

So you talked about how he was tortured - mentally, physically - and was deprived of all the necessary elements needed to survive. But you also have to understand that those were the consequences of his own actions he took while being "sane" - for example: Whoring himself for the funds (or his band indirectly) was also his own decision - actions that can be labeled as selfish yes.

(Also, the elaboration of the torturing methods was really unnecessary, I don't know if you did that intentionally thinking that your points will be more justified if you do so, everyone in the thread came knowning what type of world setting berserk had so someone would rarely sympathize with him)

About "Informed Consent" I think that my above point explains as to why the reason he became so miserable was his own actions (being all depressed about guts leaving him and making rash decisions is a part of it). But if you don't understand how his own thinking method or thought process while being "Sane" was the one that carved the path for him and femto to come together, then i sure am concerned about the women in your life.

You also used the "MY OWN MORALITY" part almost everywhere, well yea i know that morality is subjective at times. You seem to have your own beliefs, which you claim to be "moral" while you deny the reasoning of the pre-existing ones which you substituted or replaced with your own. Congratulations, you might also call people like yourself blind-selfishly-righteous (Don't say righteousness has nothing to do with this post because considering the words you used, yes it does)

And specific reply to your point about disagreeing with the post (also the most premature sentence of the whole post): yes, I do completely disagree with you. Though it was actually really funny to read the elaborated version of the line:
"Griffith got tortured and was mentally ill, so he made rash decisions unintentionally and hence it's not his fault."
it's like saying: "He signed documents of his own share of the company while he was high (totally drunk) due to his relationship stress."

The only ethically right thing you said was, "Femto harassed casca and not griffith." while people (me included) are informed about the fact that it was indeed not griffith (atleast not the consciousness), the hate is directed towards to the one in whose body he was in, the vessel to be said correctly, so hate towards griffith is pretty justified.

Garnavis said:
I'm sorry but this is absurd for two reasons.

1. Of course it was wrong to sacrifice his friends. You can say he was mentally incapable of understanding what he was doing, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. To put it into more mundane terms of consent, if a drunk person assaults someone else, has the drunk person done something wrong? I would say obviously yes. What you're discussing is whether or not he can be held responsible, which is a different question.

2. Griffith's ultimate sin and his greatest flaw is his ambition. I would say that this is one of the main themes of the series. He reflects several times (while of sound mind) on how his desire to have his own kingdom requires the deaths of many people, friends and enemies alike. He is sacrificing people in every battle. And for what? His own dream. He knows and understands this and continues to do it, and when Guts leaves him he throws a fit and ends up making the Hawks outlaws. The series is nuanced, of course, but it's well-supported in the text that he's constantly doing things that are wrong. The eclipse is merely the culmination of a path he started down when he decided he was willing to sacrifice human beings to his own ambition.

cheekkclapper said:
69291209
I actually read it. You clickbated everyone, now nobody takes you seriously. You gave a long winded argument about why Griffith was in no state to give informed consent to the Godhand, therefore he cannot be held morally accountable. But, Griffith absolutely did something wrong. Your wording of the title, which will be the only thing most people read, further reduces the number of people willing to engage with you, let alone agree. If you’d titled it “Why Griffith is not morally accountable, though his actions were unforgivable,” these people would have taken you seriously, as, in spite of what metaphors may have taught you, people absolutely judge books by their covers.
cheekkclapper
I actually read it. You clickbated everyone, now nobody takes you seriously. You gave a long winded argument about why Griffith was in no state to give informed consent to the Godhand, therefore he cannot be held morally accountable. But, Griffith absolutely did something wrong. Your wording of the title, which will be the only thing most people read, further reduces the number of people willing to engage with you, let alone agree. If you’d titled it “Why Griffith is not morally accountable, though his actions were unforgivable,” these people would have taken you seriously, as, in spite of what metaphors may have taught you, people absolutely judge books by their covers.

PeripheralVision said:
To follow up my final post, the big issue with your point is likening Griffith's state pre-eclipse as akin to something like paranoid schizophrenia, but here is the thing. Paranoid Schizophrenia for most individuals is not simply hallucinations, but affects how your mind actually works. This is a staggeringly common misconception about the disease. Some have gestured thing such as "well, if you see a blue gumby in the background, surely any reasonable person would be able to identify that as being a hallucination, right?"

Except this is not how it works, severe cases of schizophrenia not only mess with your perception with reality, what you see and experience, but how you can inteperet those things. To put it a list format.

1. Seeing and hearing things that are not there.
   
2. Being unable to properly rationalize due to said hallucinations.
   

Number 2 is very important. It is difficult to explain, but it more akin to involuntary inebriation or being forcefully put under the influence.

This is not what Griffith experienced.

Griffith more or less kept his ability to rationalize. He may have been subjected to views and hallucinations, but he is fully able to comprehend that yes, these are hallucinations for the most part. He is not psychotic, he is not experiencing a break from reality that a schizophrenic does. He might not comprehend what he is seeing, but he is still capable of distinguishing them from reality

Otherwise, you might gesture that Kakashi from Naruto did not intend to kill Itachi simply because what he attempted to stab was a hallucination. You could argue that people who hit on Kirito from Sword Art Online, who at the time looked like a very feminine looking boy were not responsible or had any control from their actions. Like Griffith, they were subjected to a reality that was misleading, but all had the competency to actually realize when they have been duped or that what they were experiencing was very different from what actually is.

Your other attempts just make Griffith pitiable, but not innocent. If someone had a shitty and painful childhood, that does not give them any special right to hurt others. Replace shitty childhood with a year in a torture dungeon, and you have Griffith again. The fact you think Griffith's empathy overrode his ambition is laughably insane. He was desperate because of the position he was in, and ultimately I imagine it would take a will of steel many of us, including myself, do not possess in order to not be swayed by the God Hand's offer.

However, he still was capable of saying no. He was not on some psychotic break, and in a world where magic exists, one could argue that magical hallucinations are just normal. Again, trying to say Griffith had no agency in his transformation to Femto completely undermines the tragedy of his arc. How unsatisfying is it to claim that Griffith was mind-controlled, or that he is a robot with no ill-will carrying out preprogrammed instructions? It is insane.

Sichlitt said:
It's not manipulative or hypocritical to say someone doesn't care about consent when they demonstraby haven't cared about consent in this instance.

RandomPerson9348 said:
Anyways. All of this nonsense made me re-read the chapters where he decides to become Femto. And wow, you are dense.

The God Hand clearly gives him a choice. They show him his comrades and tell him that they would be more than happy to accept his injured body and carry him away to safety. Then they ask him if he would rather sacrifice them and become Femto.

The reason he picks the second option is because of the many that have already died for him. The pile of bodies he sees in the vision that the God Hand show him represent the many members of the Band of the Hawk who have died over the years because of his insane ambition.

This is the one chance he has to get closer to the dream. He will never be able to reach the castle if he does not become Femto now. If he rejected the offer, it would mean disrespecting the tens of thousands who died for his dream till now. So he decides to sacrifice his comrades to become one of the God Hand.

Your idea of him not being conscious makes one of the greatest moments of twisted fictional character development into a really pathetic scene. It loses all impact and the story loses all meaning.


P.S.- What's funny is that you post this the same time that Guts is going through the same dilemma in the latest chapter. Not only the Golden Age Arc, but also the latest chapter would lose all its impact if your idea of Griffith being manipulated is to be considered.

Sichlitt said:
@RandomPerson9348  they do not give him a choice. You've misinterpreted the scene. The God Hand are presenting Griffith with the sacrifices and manufacturing consent by telling Griffith that the Hawks will forgive him for being sacrificed after the fact, as informed by the fact that Slan can read their minds. They deceptively tell a half lie by cryptically referring to the Idea of Evil and collective subconscious: "that is the cruel grace of the God born of man."

Your interpretation makes no sense because DIRECTLY before this scene the God Hand tell him that if he doesn't pile them up he will become a corpse like the rest of them. A CORPSE isn't a CRIPPLE. It's a threat of death. They didn't give him a choice. They literally say "THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE! LAY THE COBBLESTONES LEST YOU BECOME ONE OF THEM (corpse)." That is a direct quote.

I don't care if you think that makes Griffith's character bad. That's not an agument. You have to either explain why I'm wrong in-universe or stop liking Berserk. Your choice.

Sichlitt said:
@RandomPerson9348 it’s in chapter 77, the chapter before the one you’re referencing. They threaten death if he doesn’t continue to pile up corpses to the castle. Pretty self-explanatory. They CANNOT be offering him a choice to live for this very reason.

I didn’t say that they consent in that moment. My entire point is that she says they will forgive him AFTER the fact, ushering up the image of an afterlife wherein the Hawks will realise Griffith’s reasoning and forgive him while celebrating his successes. This is a twisted way of explaining that when the Hawks become a part of the vortex of souls they will lose their individuality and support Griffith as part of the collective consciousness controlling fate. That is the reference to the “god born of man.” The Idea of Evil.

He is told to bury his friends in the ruins of his dream. His dream leaves ruin behind as the God Hand explained a few pages earlier. He’s still pursuing it.

They didn’t say “if the castle is more important than his friends.” You had to make that up to make your argument make any sort of sense. He is acting on the perceived will of his men as manufactured by the God Hand.

Your translation isn’t the only one. The 1997 Berserk anime translation that I used refers to the fact that they will forgive him and then he will have life EVERLASTING, as in they forgive him for becoming the immortal Femto.

Griffith has no choice. They literally say “there is no other choice” in the chapter before during the vision of the path of bodies. This is the thematic point of his character. He is stripped of free will and gives in to fate, unlike Guts. Making it an informed choice ruins the point of the story.

Sichlitt said:
@RandomPerson9348 what the fuck are you talking about? I’m not going to sacrifice what makes sense and what is literally written on the page for your sense of comfort in believing you’re right and your personal enjoyment of Berserk. Stop playing on the author’s death to support your arguments. It’s disgusting.

RandomPerson9348 said:

Your entire point lies in the fact that you use the 1997 anime translation. The anime has different writers who can add or remove dialogue from the manga. So the anime translation isn't valid in a thread dedicated to the manga. The only valid translation would be the one which Dark Horse did with their release of the official English versions.

They never tell him to bury his friends. The line is - "Bury everything...in exchange for the past...in the ruins of your dream."
They tell him that if he wishes to go back to the Band of the Hawk, he must bury everything that he has done so far, in the ruins of his dreams. The next panel is a close-up of Griffith's face as he thinks "Ruins of my dream". That line is unacceptable to him.

As for the castle. "Even so, if you still see it. If even now, that castle is in your eyes more dazzling than anything..."
Idk how I need to make anything up to change the meaning of this very simple line. They literally ask him if the castle is more important than anything in his life. If yes, if he can't see his dream crumble to ruins, all he needs to do is sacrifice his friends.

And your final points. They don't threaten death. They literally tell him his current situation. If he does not become Femto, he will die. The God Hand has nothing to do with it. He will die due to his wounds of torture. He has that option. They show him all the destruction and death he has caused, and give him the option to die as a man loved and respected by his comrades. But he rejects that and decides to keep moving to reach his dream.

Berserk is not a story about fate. It's about ambition and morality. Nobody is ever rid of their free will. Griffith chooses to follow his ambition without any regard for his friends and family. If it helps him reach his goal, he is willing to kill the entire world. Guts is going to go on the opposite route. He will not give in to ambition. The monster might give him strength, but now, he won't give in to it. He has people he needs to protect. He will control his rage and try and fight Griffith as he is.

0207xander said:
"He was mentally unstable so you can't say it was morally wrong for him to kill hundreds of innocent comrades/friends all for self-service and the pursuit of power"

Just stop it

RandomPerson9348 said:

Your entire point lies in the fact that you use the 1997 anime translation. The anime has different writers who can add or remove dialogue from the manga. So the anime translation isn't valid in a thread dedicated to the manga. The only valid translation would be the one which Dark Horse did with their release of the official English versions.

They never tell him to bury his friends. The line is - "Bury everything...in exchange for the past...in the ruins of your dream."
They tell him that if he wishes to go back to the Band of the Hawk, he must bury everything that he has done so far, in the ruins of his dreams. The next panel is a close-up of Griffith's face as he thinks "Ruins of my dream". That line is unacceptable to him.

As for the castle. "Even so, if you still see it. If even now, that castle is in your eyes more dazzling than anything..."
Idk how I need to make anything up to change the meaning of this very simple line. They literally ask him if the castle is more important than anything in his life. If yes, if he can't see his dream crumble to ruins, all he needs to do is sacrifice his friends.

And your final points. They don't threaten death. They literally tell him his current situation. If he does not become Femto, he will die. The God Hand has nothing to do with it. He will die due to his wounds of torture. He has that option. They show him all the destruction and death he has caused, and give him the option to die as a man loved and respected by his comrades. But he rejects that and decides to keep moving to reach his dream.

Berserk is not a story about fate. It's about ambition and morality. Nobody is ever rid of their free will. Griffith chooses to follow his ambition without any regard for his friends and family. If it helps him reach his goal, he is willing to kill the entire world. Guts is going to go on the opposite route. He will not give in to ambition. The monster might give him strength, but now, he won't give in to it. He has people he needs to protect. He will control his rage and try and fight Griffith as he is.

RandomPerson9348 said:

Your entire point lies in the fact that you use the 1997 anime translation. The anime has different writers who can add or remove dialogue from the manga. So the anime translation isn't valid in a thread dedicated to the manga. The only valid translation would be the one which Dark Horse did with their release of the official English versions.

They never tell him to bury his friends. The line is - "Bury everything...in exchange for the past...in the ruins of your dream."
They tell him that if he wishes to go back to the Band of the Hawk, he must bury everything that he has done so far, in the ruins of his dreams. The next panel is a close-up of Griffith's face as he thinks "Ruins of my dream". That line is unacceptable to him.

As for the castle. "Even so, if you still see it. If even now, that castle is in your eyes more dazzling than anything..."
Idk how I need to make anything up to change the meaning of this very simple line. They literally ask him if the castle is more important than anything in his life. If yes, if he can't see his dream crumble to ruins, all he needs to do is sacrifice his friends.

And your final points. They don't threaten death. They literally tell him his current situation. If he does not become Femto, he will die. The God Hand has nothing to do with it. He will die due to his wounds of torture. He has that option. They show him all the destruction and death he has caused, and give him the option to die as a man loved and respected by his comrades. But he rejects that and decides to keep moving to reach his dream.

Berserk is not a story about fate. It's about ambition and morality. Nobody is ever rid of their free will. Griffith chooses to follow his ambition without any regard for his friends and family. If it helps him reach his goal, he is willing to kill the entire world. Guts is going to go on the opposite route. He will not give in to ambition. The monster might give him strength, but now, he won't give in to it. He has people he needs to protect. He will control his rage and try and fight Griffith as he is.

HawksRaider said:

Yes! The whole point of the manga is about choices people make. That is very clear.

I feel the argument that is being made for Griffith doing nothing wrong literally robs his character of agency and corrupts the theme of the story.

It's not a manga where there are all powerful gods that can change everything with a snap of there fingers. Where fate forces you to do everything despite what you want.

Berserk is about struggling with your own choices and struggling to keep to them despite powerful opposition (not all powerful)

Griffith is a good character despite being a terrible person and is proactive in his choices.

If we follow the logic of the original poster, he's an invalid who is bullied into making a bad dessision. I find that to be a boring interpretation. He's gone to war , fought in battles, and has tried to kill himself within recent time of his offer to become Femto. Even if you were to believe he is being threatened (which I don't believe) the Griffith I know wouldn't be threatened by death in that way, he would pursue his dream with intentional disregard for others.

Now there are some who have said that Griffith did no wrong because he was pursuing his dream and that has always been his goal. I don't think think these people have good moral grownding but I do think that they have a better understanding of the character then the poster of this thread

I'd personally recommend you go back to the begging of the manga and re-asses the character as you read to the end of the Golden age arc. The character that you're describing sounds more like Corkus then Griffith to me

RandomPerson9348 said:

Your mentality is what is disgusting. I'm not saying that you need to stop believing whatever you believe. Go ahead and keep saying Griffith is right. I honestly don't care.

But your idea of thrusting your opinions on others is really annoying. Who cares if people think Griffith is right or not? Instead of leaving them alone, you keep attacking them and telling them how bad they are because they read something differently.

Even now, my arguments are not to change your mind. They are to protect my standing, which you constantly, personally attack.

No author in this world would be pleased by someone protecting their work and forcing the "truth" on people. As long as people enjoy things in their own way, leave them alone. Even now. You have the choice of just telling me that I'm free to believe what I want and have fun.

But you instead ask me to stop liking something instead of reading it my way. THAT is disgusting.

RandomPerson9348 said:
Ok, fine. Whatever. Human Griffith did nothing wrong. The God Hand forced him to become Femto and his entire personality changed due to that. Okay?

I get it now.

I was an idiot to think that I could actually read something and understand it. Next time, I'll let you know when I want to read something and you can give me an explanation for it, so that I don't misunderstand the story. Thank you for clearing all my misconceptions and making it clear that this story is actually just about immortal godly beings forcing humans to do what they want for their amusement (let me know if I am still misunderstanding it, sorry).

Now that you have completely made me believe that your argument is right, please leave me alone. I honestly couldn't care. For the two or some days that I didn't have to read something you wrote, I was really, really happy. Let me go back to that.

Forgive the mistakes of a little child. I am chickening out because I just can't think of anything to justify my stupid beliefs.

Sichlitt said:


That is how consent works yeah. I’m not saying there’s no blame to be handed out. It’s the God Hand’s fault. Accountability requires intent.

0207xander said:
You are just handwaving all personal accountability. He literally for dozens of chapters talked about how he viewed his comrades as being expendable for his dream and how he would do anything to attain his kingdom. That was foreshadowing his decision. There was no difference in his character before and after his torture. Just accept the fact you are wrong/delusional

RandomPerson9348 said:

Your entire point lies in the fact that you use the 1997 anime translation. The anime has different writers who can add or remove dialogue from the manga. So the anime translation isn't valid in a thread dedicated to the manga. The only valid translation would be the one which Dark Horse did with their release of the official English versions.

They never tell him to bury his friends. The line is - "Bury everything...in exchange for the past...in the ruins of your dream."
They tell him that if he wishes to go back to the Band of the Hawk, he must bury everything that he has done so far, in the ruins of his dreams. The next panel is a close-up of Griffith's face as he thinks "Ruins of my dream". That line is unacceptable to him.

As for the castle. "Even so, if you still see it. If even now, that castle is in your eyes more dazzling than anything..."
Idk how I need to make anything up to change the meaning of this very simple line. They literally ask him if the castle is more important than anything in his life. If yes, if he can't see his dream crumble to ruins, all he needs to do is sacrifice his friends.

And your final points. They don't threaten death. They literally tell him his current situation. If he does not become Femto, he will die. The God Hand has nothing to do with it. He will die due to his wounds of torture. He has that option. They show him all the destruction and death he has caused, and give him the option to die as a man loved and respected by his comrades. But he rejects that and decides to keep moving to reach his dream.

Berserk is not a story about fate. It's about ambition and morality. Nobody is ever rid of their free will. Griffith chooses to follow his ambition without any regard for his friends and family. If it helps him reach his goal, he is willing to kill the entire world. Guts is going to go on the opposite route. He will not give in to ambition. The monster might give him strength, but now, he won't give in to it. He has people he needs to protect. He will control his rage and try and fight Griffith as he is.