Explaining the final twist

Piromysl said:
Bruh. That's not a theory, that's literally what happened and it was right into face, so there's no room for ambiguity.

Anyway, I love how Homura's compassion turns into obsession and she even admits she became opposite of what Madoka's intent was by becoming Devil to her God, effectively cementing her as a villainesses and setting up a potential for a sequel.
Homura's actions were selfish.
Do not confuse obsession for love, because she should know for a fact that "saving" Madoka and enslaving Incubators, thus preventing them from doing their job puts all creation in peril.
Even her precious Madoka.
That's a example of a yandere character done well.

Alex_the_reaper said:
You guys remember the ending?
I forgor

Ionliosite2 said:
You don't need to explain something so out of character, it's fine.

Apolygon2 said:


out of character how?

if anything it is perfectly in character.

Homura couldn't have planned what she did, because we're with her the entire movie and she has no idea what's happening. She came up with her ruse cruise in a matter of minutes if not seconds, and then gave the impression she had been planning it all along when she simply couldn't have. Her ability to absorb Madoka's powers is not explained and has no basis in anything we know about the series, nor is it explained how she knew she could do that. The things that happen before and after Homura's betrayal are completely unrelated to each other, and it can only be concluded that the movie was finished or nearly finished and then the ending was changed without touching the rest of the movie.

Then there's Homura's motive. Why did she do any of that? The common fan interpretation is that she wanted Madoka to live a normal life and not have to be a magical girl or a goddess. The primary evidence people cite is the flower field scene, where Homura says she never should have let Madoka become a magical girl. But this scene is misinterpreted. In the preceding scene, Homura is thinking about the fact that they're in a dream world, that they've forsaken their battle against the wraiths, and that they're wasting Madoka's sacrifice. She is determined to do something about it. Then she happens to run into Madoka, and the flower field scene occurs. Madoka claims she would never have the courage to leave Homura and everyone else, but Homura knows this isn't true and tells her that she does have that courage—just as Homura must now have the courage to do the same. She says that being able to meet Madoka "one more time" makes her happy, which indicates an expectation of not meeting again. She says there's something she has to do and leaves, and then comes the scene where she separates from her soul gem.

These scenes are all about Homura's decision to escape the witch's labyrinth and face reality. Madoka braids Homura's hair, which Homura rejects. Braiding her hair signifies reverting Homura back to her "pre-awakened" state (not literally, but as if to convince her to stay). Once Homura realized she's in a witch's labyrinth—about 40 minutes into the movie—she removed her glasses and unraveled her braids. Back when Homura actually wore glasses and braids, in the real world, she was still following Madoka as a magical girl and unaware of what was really going on. The labyrinth is an idealized version of that time.

The only sticking point is when Homura says: "How could I have made such a stupid mistake? No matter what it took, I should have stopped you back then." But then she proceeds to do the same thing. Madoka also just said that of course she would never leave Homura, even though we and Homura know that that's exactly what she did. Homura may say she should have stopped Madoka, but she doesn't really believe it. Then the twist occurs and her earlier determination to face reality has completely vanished as if it never existed. And finally, if we consider the idea that the ending was added after the movie was already complete—and it was almost certainly was—then it means there is no scene explaining Homura's motives for turning on Madoka because Homura was never going to do that. It was never part of the story, and thus not something they would have accounted for.

If Homura really did usurp Madoka's throne for her own good, then you would expect her to behave a bit differently. In the television show she is at first inscrutable and seemingly emotionless, and we don't know what her motives are—is she an antagonist or an ally? We learn only later that she is doing everything for Madoka's sake, and that it's very painful for her. And what do we get in Rebellion? She's a smirking, flamboyant super villain who openly calls herself evil and a devil. It's so self-aware that she might as well wink at the camera.

Why did they replace the ending? To make it easy to create a sequel. As much as people claim that many television shows are glorified advertisements for the source material or half-heartedly thrown together to make a quick buck, Rebellion is the first and only time I've felt like I'm being taken for a ride. The trio who created Madoka is way too experienced and skilled to have messed things up by accident (I think Urobuchi just followed orders and probably resented the finished product). Fortunately for them, they managed to dazzle and confuse most people into not noticing the gaping holes in the story.

ScionOfCyan said:
As long as the progression makes sense with the themes and the characters the ‘how’ of it can be answered all sorts of ways. I think criticizing that part can only be a small complaint because it’s structurally of low importance. Clearly Homura is supposed to be this figure representing something similar to the Adversary of Milton’s Paradise Lost, which fits the themes quite nicely.

The concern I have here is that unlike the other four shoujo, Homura’s characterization is rather thinly fleshed out. Her goals, her motivations, basically everything about the way she sees the world is a little too much of a mystery. If the story is all about her decisions than the reasons why she makes those decisions are really important to the story. Milton’s Adversary gives long monologues that thoroughly flesh out his desires, motivations, and worldview.

I’m going to watch Rebellion a few more times and look more closely for these elements of characterization and foreshadowing but I left it frustrated at how poorly we all know Homura as a person. It’s a stark contrast with Sayaka and Kyouko whose interiorization and progression are masterfully explicated.

Apolygon2 said:
@Ionliosite2

1. as you said and as I explained her taking the power away from madoka does make sense.

2. this argument is heavily based on a different interpretation of some scenes, which is the worst way to make an argument like this. homura was selfish from the start. she isn't trying to "save madoka" in a selfless way. she is obsessed with her. she knows dismissing madoka's wishes is wrong, which is why going through with it is the ultimate selfish act. she did it for herself.

the argument in the post doesn't seem to understand this.

why would homura wish for "going back, but this time I save madoka".

just think about it. even from the very start, while yes she DID want to save her. she wanted to do it in the way that benefited her the most. she didn't even consider the rest of the world. her wish was purely for madoka, and purely based on HER specifically saving her.

you might think that is not an important detail but it very much so is. all the wishes in madoka magica have a very direct and important relation to each girls character arc. and all of those wishes reached a climax in the main series.... except for homuras.

madoka magica uses parallel writing for all of it's characters. sayaka and kyouko were made to be opposite and parallels.

same with madoka and homura.

ScionOfCyan said:
As long as the progression makes sense with the themes and the characters the ‘how’ of it can be answered all sorts of ways. I think criticizing that part can only be a small complaint because it’s structurally of low importance. Clearly Homura is supposed to be this figure representing something similar to the Adversary of Milton’s Paradise Lost, which fits the themes quite nicely.

The concern I have here is that unlike the other four shoujo, Homura’s characterization is rather thinly fleshed out. Her goals, her motivations, basically everything about the way she sees the world is a little too much of a mystery. If the story is all about her decisions than the reasons why she makes those decisions are really important to the story. Milton’s Adversary gives long monologues that thoroughly flesh out his desires, motivations, and worldview.

I’m going to watch Rebellion a few more times and look more closely for these elements of characterization and foreshadowing but I left it frustrated at how poorly we all know Homura as a person. It’s a stark contrast with Sayaka and Kyouko whose interiorization and progression are masterfully explicated.

Ionliosite2 said:


You know your very own argument is also based on an interpretation? It's no more valid that the one I cited.

thunderkitten13 said:

Well, I find her motivations for why she wants to imprison Madoka quite clear: during the first timeline, she became extremely close with Madoka. Fearing she would lose her friend forever, she sold her soul to Kyubey in exchange for power to prevent Madoka from becoming a magical girl. However, the same way Sayaka’s wish ultimately backfired on her happened to Homura. She spent over twenty timelines trying to prevent Madoka’s fate, but failed every time. This probably messed her up emotionally and psychologically. Rebellion is a perfect example of Homura saying check mate to fate. But the end is so tragic because Homura realizes even she cannot stop Madoka from fulfilling her wish because it is who she is inside: an Angel. So Homura chose to become the Devil, all for Madoka’s sake. It is a twisted sentiment, but that is not the point. The point is that Homura chose to live solely for Madoka in direct response to Madoka’s wish, which was to die for everyone else.

ScionOfCyan said:
Nice, thanks APolygon2. I’ll write mine out here at some point. Hopefully within a couple days.

And here’s the prompt for other people who don’t feel like looking at that video: “Describe the characters in Madoka Magica WITHOUT saying what they look like, what costume they wore, or what their profession or role in the movie was. Describe this character to your friends like they ain’t never seen Madoka Magica.”

ScionOfCyan said:
I’m going to clarify the prompt a little. When the person says Han Solo is roguish, that’s because he consistently acts like a rogue across different scenarios, while interacting with different people. Same with C3PO. They say ‘prissy’ because he acts that way over and over again, in different places talking to a variety of characters. You could say the creators successfully communicate to us that it’s an ‘intrinsic’ part of their personality or persona.

So when I list out the personality attributes of the girls, I’m going to make an effort to add references to multiple moments that establish this trait. If it just happens once it’s the particular behavior of an individual in a specific context. You need a pattern to define an identity.

Some_Javvy said:
nah, i wouldn't say homura was necessarily selfish, at least compared to the other girls (minus madoka).
mami likely wished to survive the car accident (wish used in order to prevent purely her own death). sayaka wished for kyosuke to become better, which on its own is selfless, however was done because she didn't want to see the person she loved in pain. kyoko's wish did help her father, but in karmic fashion, that backfired heavily, and even then, was likely done partly due to her and her family starving (hence her hatred for people who waste food).
compared to this, homura's wish was simply to redo her meeting with madoka, which does seem selfish at first (especially considering her strong attachment to madoka) but at the end of the day is homura trying to save madoka from her fate. i'd argue that homura is forcing herself to play the part of a demon (her witch familiars are even called a troupe, how much more on the nose can we get?), and homura does seem to genuinely wish for madoka to have a normal life.

ScionOfCyan said:

Madoka:
-uncertain/indecisive/self-doubting
-selfless/attentive to others/receptive
-pure/sinless/good

Apolygon2 said:
I think you saw how I said I actually really dislike homura's personality despite her being in my top 30 favorites. if we are talking pure personality, while yes kyouko and sayaka have a lot more traits compared to homura or madoka, in the grand scheme of things I think the personalities are the weakest part of madoka magica as a franchise.

to me, the thing that makes the madoka magica characters so great, is their character arc. how they change, their developments, and motives. and from homura having the most amount of favorites in the show, I think most people feel the same.

at it's core, madoka magica is story driven through and through. and the way the video you mentioned judges characters, doesn't account for that.

Piromysl said:

Damn. You literally described Mary Sue character. Don't get me wrong. While having a Mary Sue protagonist is a recipe for disaster, here it is executed correctiy, because it is possible to pull off (case and point - Fruits Basket).
Because while plot revolves around Madoka, for almost entirely of TV series she is not even a Magical Girl, but just a powerless observant and it's not even her who pushes the story forward.
In the Rebellion she is not even a protagonist.

It always rubbed me the wrong way, that despite this show being overall phenomenal, the Madoka herself was kinda... boring.
But still managed to be a decent character, that contributed to the story in her own way.

And we are not talking about spinoff.
It didn't happen.

ScionOfCyan said:
I have a response to this. It will reflect my big picture take on stories in general. I’ll post it for you when I have time to write it up. I just wanted to reply here so you didn’t think I was ghosting your well-thought out response as I reply to Piromysl too.

EDIT: not even trying to win any argument or anything when it comes to Madoka Magica anymore, just explaining my perspective. How I think of stories, what about that makes me care so much about characterization lists like the one I wrote above. Stuff like that. Just something that might be interesting to consider if you assess stories in a different way.

Preface: I encourage the reader not to think of this as a 'Rebellion bad' argument. I'm outlining how I analyze stories. Sayaka and Homura are merely good examples. I get things wrong all the time. Madoka Magica is my favorite anime and it's brilliantly constructed. Because I'm judging Homura on a 'Sayaka-Kyouko' scale, it'll come off as claiming Homura is a bad character. She's not. That benchmark is nonsensically high. Sayaka and Kyouko are, for me, probably the best-constructed characters in any audiovisual story I have ever watched. Homura is a stronger character than the entire cast of many of MAL's top 100. I'm pretty confident she's better than the whole cast of Attack on Titan, for example. She does have well-defined personality traits. She is highly introverted, which leads to aloofness. She adores the people she likes and rejects almost everybody else. This is exactly how introverted people work. This personality clearly relates directly to many of her important actions.

The wish I'd have for Madoka Magica, were it to do remakes, is to delve deeper into her beliefs. She has just about enough personality but seriously lacks worldview. Scenes where she bares her heart to Madoka the way Kyouko bares her heart to Sayaka would be perfect. Ideally they outline how she sees the world just the way Kyouko talks about zero-sum mindset and looking out for number one. There's no real reason why Urobuchi and Shinbo can't give Homura her own philosophical views. This story has real potential to achieve new heights.

Sayaka is intrinsically selfless and agreeable and has an idealistic and righteous worldview. This belief system stems naturally from her personality since she inherited heaps of ‘self-sacrifice’ genes from her ancestors. She's dogmatically idealistic and disregards the warnings of pragmatic peers, leading to implosion and self-destruction. She becomes the exact evil she hates most in the world.

Paradise Lost deeply explores motivations & mentality of Satan. Put no effort into doing that and you have an empty story.

Sayaka is intrinsically selfless and agreeable and has an idealistic and righteous worldview. This belief system stems naturally from her personality since she inherited heaps of ‘self-sacrifice’ genes from her ancestors. She's dogmatically idealistic and disregards the warnings of pragmatic peers, leading to implosion and self-destruction. She becomes the exact evil she hates most in the world.

Some_Javvy said:

sayaka isn't intrinsically selfless, she's playing the part of the selfless hero. she chose her wish because she wanted kyosuke, and she eventually realises that she doesn't want to work without being thanked for it, with her fall into despair being because she realised she isn't the selfless person she thought she was.

with her fall into despair being because she realised she isn't the selfless person she thought she was

ScionOfCyan said:

what you say here is fundamentally correct though
i think any character analysis of sayaka worth its salt needs to cover that point well

If you want me to ping you whenever I finish it I will do so gladly.

Apolygon2 said:
Over the years I have noticed that a very low number of people actually understood how did the final twist happen. so...

I would say this is a theory, but I do think it's convincing enough for you to take it as fact.

homura's wish wasn't stopping time, or getting powers or anything like that, it was to save madoka. so saving her from ultimate sacrifice, which was her becoming a god was a part of that wish. which is what gave her the power to pull of the devil thing.

but if madoka lost her godhood, it would mean her wish wouldn't be true anymore, which is why for the sake of both of those wishes getting granted, she got split into two. one continuing to be a god, and another who forgot about everything and is with homura.



she's a devil because taking maodka was the ultimate selfish act. saving someone who she loves at the cost of every other magical girl. which is the perfect contrast to madoka ultimate sacrifice.

now, the affects of that split, are yet to be seen, since that's where rebellion ends.



but no, the ending is not a plot hole. the section before the final twist has a very jarring info dump, but the movie does not have a plot hole. at least not one that relates to the final twist.

TerrorAdhaerens said:
OP, you should give Wraith Arc a read (a manga that takes place between the show and Rebellion). It somewhat explains how Homura was able to become so powerful. In short, it has something to do with the karmic destiny that she has gained due to the repeated timelines. But it get's little bit more complicated then that.

Homura's wish was to save Madoka. During the flower scene, amnesiac Madoka confesses that she would never leave her friends and family behind. In other words, Homura's wish was not fulfilled. Thus the events at the end of Rebellion. She would even become a demon in order to protect the most important person in her life. So I agree with you.

EP1C_G4YM3R said:

Do you have any idea if it will get animated? I could look it up, but I’m choosing to ask instead.

Apolygon2 said:
but if madoka lost her godhood, it would mean her wish wouldn't be true anymore, which is why for the sake of both of those wishes getting granted, she got split into two. one continuing to be a god, and another who forgot about everything and is with homura.

she's a devil because taking maodka was the ultimate selfish act. saving someone who she loves at the cost of every other magical girl. which is the perfect contrast to madoka ultimate sacrifice.

Tiffanys said:
I think you veer a bit off course with your theory here. Homura didn't split Madoka in two, she split the Law of Cycles in two and only extracted the sliver that was Madoka herself. So to say that it was at the cost of every other magical girl is wrong. The Law of Cycles continues to operate. Magical girls still don't turn into witches, just like Madoka wanted. Except for Homura herself who did.

You could call keeping Madoka trapped in that false reality labyrinth within herself and taking her memories so that she can be with her again and to save Madoka from her own wish was Homura being selfish. But it was selfless as she's always been. She became a demon herself so that Madoka could be happy. So she could be with her friends and family rather than endlessly suffering on everyone else's behalf, with everyone forgetting her.

I think the part that tripped you up was Homura telling Kyubey she needed them to clean up all the curses left in their world. Though judging from the state of the one at the end it seems they're having a rough time of it. Personally I think that implies they're having to do it themselves rather than by using magical girls. But I could be totally wrong about that since it'd preclude any future continuation.

ScionOfCyan said:
"I am fixated on being with Madoka" is extraordinarily shallow

MelonMilk said:
I don't think that's exactly a fair characterization of Homura's motives. They made it abundantly clear in the movie that her motive was to give Madoka a happy life, because she views the price she paid as being way too much. The whole witch part is Homura struggling between the part of her that desires to respect Madoka's wishes, and the part that desires to save Madoka from her wish. Her being unable to save Madoka is her despair, hence her witch form as a nutcracker without a head, one that cannot fulfill it's function. It seems like too many people didn't catch this part that SHAFT had to spell it right out in the Concept Movie (Watch it if you haven't).

ScionOfCyan said:
With respect, none of what you said is intrinsic personality attributes, generalizable belief system, or generalizable worldview.  (When I say generalizable I mean it’s a way of seeing the world or a belief about the nature of being or the best way to live that evinces itself across interactions with multiple characters and multiple scenarios).  Another way to say this is that masterful characterization somehow manages to communicate the character’s abstract hierarchy of ideals, what it is they value, what it is they find glorious and beautiful in life (or execrable and disgusting).  And the manner in which that motivates them tends to be clear.  Light’s contempt for fellow man, for example.  Sayaka’s ideal of a collaborative self-sacrificing knighthood which serves and protects others.  Kamina’s drive to the heavens in the spirit of fraternal striving.  Eren’s impetus to dominion in the firm resolve of his belief in man’s will to power.  When I try to state such an abstract or generalized ideal or worldview for Homura I draw an unfortunate blank.

I appreciate your comment and your desire to correct my understanding 🤝, it just does not appear to address the underlying meaning associated with my writing of that phrase.  Which admittedly is likely my fault for communicating poorly as I could have spent more time editing.  Cheers…

MelonMilk said:
I see, I understand what you mean now, I'm not sure I quite understand this perspective though. Forgive me if I'm retreading some ground you've already covered, I skimmed through some of what you wrote. Is the main metric by which you're judging characterization now essentially how well their narrative fits into a parable? Because I do feel like well written characters don't need to give you any sort of take away, and definitely won't fit neatly into boxes. Homura's not my favourite or anything, but I certainly wouldn't call her characterization shallow in any sense. You could look at any action she takes and make sense of it from her perspective, and sympathize with why she might feel the way she does. 

I think there's a lot of complexity here with Homura, and we see her desire come into conflict multiple times in the movie, and those are really humanizing moments for her. I.e. her pained contemplation about shooting Mami, her initial desire to die within the barrier than to betray Madoka, her self-loathing at the end after achieving her desired world.

Thanks for taking the time to clear up your intent btw, really appreciate it :)