alshu said: Nope, you are using the same arguments but they work only for the VN, not for the "anime only" approach. Nope, I was suggesting only you doing that only in the case of Fate. Before i started, i did my research and i personally chose to follow the order that most closely resembled the source material's release order. I ended up loving the whole story experiencing it that way, which is why i stand by that order. Stop trying to invalidate my fucking opinion on it by painting it as "VN purist bandwagoning." This is a certain point when you disagreed with those guys but I am with them on this. Careful, someone might accuse you of just aping them for that take. I don't disagree with you or with the other guys 100%, only on several points (and only from the aspect you don't want to play the VN). You have a bit of a "selective reading" problem, don't you? I already told you in my 2nd post that i do want and plan to read the VN eventually. Initially, i just didn't want to commit to a 60+ hour-long VN (a medium which i am not familiar with at all) before deciding if i should check out the anime. Now that i've watched all the mainline entries and consider myself a fan, i definitely want to dive into all the details in the source material. Not to mention you need some extended Nasuverse knowledge beyond Fate to understand the end of the third HF movie. F/Z is also somewhat guilty of that, as it requires Nasuverse knowledge to understand some aspects of Kiritsugu's backstory (Dead Apostles, the concept of Kerry's Origin and the bullets "made" from it) as well as what the Root is, but whatever. It was the Zero anime not working well with F/SN 2006 if you watch them in release order...the fault being in F/SN 2006. IMO watching them chronologically works better. I think one of the main problems with the chronological order is that going from F/Z straight to F/SN '06 will most likely make the latter seem like a huge downgrade (especially in terms of visuals). Personally, i thought '06 was fine and i enjoyed it sufficiently as my first Fate anime. But tbh, after having watched the subsequent Ufotable adaptations, going back to '06 would probably be... pretty rough. So you you wilfully deny the idea that some prequels are created differently? Whoops, i meant to say that the other way around, my bad. Will edit this point in my previous post. Actually Deen tried (check the UBW movie), failed miserably and stained the brand. It ufotable have chosen to reboot F/SN the anime franchise wouldn't be so popular today because at that point everybody was hating the idea of Fate. They made the right decision with Zero, that is true. Look, i really do understand that throughout most of the 2010's (especially the pre-Ufo UBW years), anime-onlies (like me) didn't have much of a choice but to watch F/Z early on if they wanted to give the franchise a try; and i do acknowledge that it's only because i got into the franchise so recently that i was able to watch it in the order that i did. But i just believe that now that we finally have the option to watch the mainline entries in the order that both Nasu and Urobuchi originally intended, i don't really see the point in sticking to that order which i view as outdated. Of course, if Ufo were ever to remake the Saber route, that would just be fantastic and would make future watch order recommendations a whole lot easier and streamlined. But sadly, i doubt that's ever gonna happen, so F/SN '06 is all we got. As mentioned this is 99.99% of every battle shounen. Frankly, i don't care whether that message seems clichéd to you or not. The fact remains that it is relevant to its own plot and core themes, thus it deserves its place in the story. Whether it was well-executed or not is simply subjective. And when you learn this reason you mind IS NOT blown away just "Oh OK". In your experience* Yeah, because everyone who started with F/Z is an idiot by your definition. Again with the selective reading... i already went into specifics and clarified to you that my beef is with those who push the "F/Z -> (skip F/SN '06) -> UBW" order around on newbies as the "definitive Fate watch order". Hypothetically, if someone has at least bothered to look into things beforehand and they still determine that they'd prefer to start with Zero, then more power to them! Their personal watching preference doesn't bother me at all. Repeating those N + 1 doesn't mean I will agree. More misinterpretation, shocker. I didn't repeat this point to force you to agree with me. I had already stated how Kirei's character arc in F/SN is relevant to his F/Z incarnation, but then you replied with "still not sure how F/Z spoils that", so i had to repeat it in a slightly rephrased manner. That's it. At the end of the day some would prefer starting with F/SN others would prefer start with F/Z...because people watch it for different reasons. As I mentioned I try to convey the idea that everyone should decide for themselves (same thing with Gundam) but of course nobody listens. Not disagreeing with you here, really. That's actually a good thing because Fate is a bunch of very different shows bundled under the same name* (Same thing with Gundan too.). Those guys watched the exact Fate show they wanted. That's true* for the many spin-offs, but not so for F/SN which is meant to be seen as a whole (not just 3 separate stories), and F/Z which is not entirely stand-alone due to its close connection to F/SN. How about genuinely not liking this part of the story? How about if they stared F/SN dropping it 3 episode in (exactly what I did the first time around...only started with F/Z because some friends convinced me to do so) and never checking any Fate title again? Misinterpretation(^2). I don't blame anyone for disliking F/SN '06. Though i have a soft spot for it, i acknowledge that it's not a great adaptation. I was simply stating that misconception of what Saber's role is "supposed" to be in the later routes as one of the major consequences of skipping the 1st route, which can and does affect perception of said routes negatively. Saber is the poster girl for the whole franchise after all, so it shouldn't be surprising that many viewers would expect a lot more screentime from her than they'll actually get. Anyway, most of the other separate points you made, i just fundamentally disagree with; so i won't touch on them in order to avoid going too much into circles with this argument. |
Stygian_PrisonerAug 29, 2021 10:21 PM
| The original Fate needs a remake, its a bad start if you ask me. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
| Thread moved from Anime Discussion |
Swagernator said: @NoLiferSoul did nothing wrong! Ardanaz said: @Nolifersoul did nothing wrong |
And since all such researches are bombarded and peer-pressured by VN purists...like ask something like that on r/Anime and hundreds VN fans will gather to explain you the canonical order (not mentioning it's canonical for the games and the book) and to shame those idiots who started with F/Z. Stygian_Prisoner said: Stop trying to invalidate my fucking opinion I am not invalidating it, I just disagree also I mock the VN purists who forced it on people...not that having said opinion is bad or something. But things aren't always black and white. Stygian_Prisoner said: You have a bit of a "selective reading" problem, don't you? I already told you in my 2nd post that i do want and plan to read the VN eventually. But I don't talk about you here, I just mention that the whole "start with F/Z" recommendation idea is based on the assumption to watch only the anime side of the franchise. Stygian_Prisoner said: F/Z is also somewhat guilty of that, as it requires Nasuverse knowledge to understand some aspects of Kiritsugu's backstory (Dead Apostles, the concept of Kerry's Origin and the bullets "made" from it) as well as what the Root is, but whatever. True. Still F/SN make more sense with F/Z than without it. Stygian_Prisoner said: I think one of the main problems with the chronological order is that going from F/Z straight to F/SN '06 will most likely make the latter seem like a huge downgrade (especially in terms of visuals). Yes. Still better have a downgrade (and everybody, even people who haven't watched Fate are aware of it) than being not able to start it all. For example I stuck with it just to see what happens with the loose ends from F/Z. Stygian_Prisoner said: Personally, i thought '06 was fine and i enjoyed it sufficiently as my first Fate anime. It's a bit more battle shounen-ish from the other I guess. I always recommend to battle shounen fans to start with it because they will feel at home there. Stygian_Prisoner said: That's true* for the many spin-offs, but not so for F/SN which is meant to be seen as a whole Yeah, same thing with Star Wars - all the movies a mean to be watched as whole but as a fan I can affirm that you can watch only few of them and that stick with the Clone Wars animations by David Felony...and maybe with The Mandalirian for the best experience. Stygian_Prisoner said: I don't blame anyone for disliking F/SN '06. Though i have a soft spot for it, i acknowledge that it's not a great adaptation. I was simply stating that misconception of what Saber's role is "supposed" to be in the later routes as one of the major consequences of skipping the 1st route, which can and does affect perception of said routes negatively. So you don't blame them but also blame them for having the wrong idea what is going of with Saber. Stygian_Prisoner said: Saber is the poster girl for the whole franchise after all, so it shouldn't be surprising that many viewers would expect a lot more screentime from her than they'll actually get. This is an assumption you made for other people right? (Just like "any viewer who hasn't watched F/SN beforehand will definitely miss out on them" for Kirei.) Well, for some reason I wasn't surpised...maybe because I was more interested in Rin...and F/SN, F/SN UBW and F/SN HF give you a lot of Rin. |
alshu said: VN purist fake news propaganda. Wow , stop stop stop ! How are the VN purists glorifying the 2006 Anime ? They are 100% the ones who wants to bury it. (And they would gladly push the Zero fans in the grave at the same time.) I don't know how much Anikore and SomeAnithing are trustworthy , but 2006's Anime was doing good according to them too. (And it have Saber , even if they butcherered it like the UBW Movie , it should still have a decent reception in Japan.) The FMA 2003 vs FMAB are pretty pushy if you ask me. I have no doubt about the FMAB side , but the 2003 ? Seems like Hunter x Hunter 99 & 11 to me , there is fans of 99 who try to push it , put they are in a so tiny minority that you almost don't see them. While for Fate , i'll go as far as say that the minority is the ones who actually recommend to watch the 2006's Anime/the correct order. |
 "Genius lives only one storey above madness." – Arthur Schopenhauer. "Stupidity is a talent for misconception." – Edgar Allan Poe. "I'm tired... & hungry." – Alexioos95. |
Alexioos95 said: How are the VN purists glorifying the 2006 Anime ? They are 100% the ones who wants to bury it. That's the evil part, they want you to hate the anime and read/play the VN. |
alshu said: And since all such researches are bombarded and peer-pressured by VN purists...like ask something like that on r/Anime and hundreds VN fans will gather to explain you the canonical order (not mentioning it's canonical for the games and the book) and to shame those idiots who started with F/Z You're not wrong here, but i don't believe my choice was influenced by fan input much, if at all. Long before I got started, I was already aware of the notorious debates around it, so I knew i shouldn't put much stock into random fan opinions. That's why I stuck to looking into more "neutral" sources such as the Type-Moon Wiki. In the end, though, most of my decisive info I got from the pinned mod thread in the UBW S1 forum right here on MAL. I found that it explained what's up with the franchise adaptations quite well, and it even features different watch order options to choose from without leaning too heavily into any one of them (the linked Reddit article in the forum was especially informative on the matter). In the end, once I found out that all the confusion was mostly an issue of the franchise being adapted out of order, it was just a simple matter of looking up the source material's release order and going from there. I heavily respect authorial intent and staying true to their narrative flow, so that order was a no-brainer for me. That's also why I'm planning to follow the LN release order for the Monogatari series (instead of the anime release order), once I get around to it eventually. Anyway, the fact that I chose to start with F/SN '06 should be enough to tell you that I deliberately ignored most people's recommendations, since A) most of the casual viewers prefer earlier gratification, which Zero/UBW bring, and B) most VN readers hate the shit out of '06. am not invalidating it, I just disagree also I mock the VN purists who forced it on people...not that having said opinion is bad or something. Disagreeing is fine (which to be fair, you've done so respectfully for most of my other points), but the thing is when you keep framing your argument around the notion that the other side is "imitating/bandwagoning" a certain group, you're implying that their opinion holds no value since it's not one that they formed on their own. That, to me, reads as an attempt to invalidate. Either way, I dunno how else I can word this so that you'll understand it better, and I'm honestly kinda tired of going in circles with this particular point; so I think I'll just drop it now and move on. But things aren't always black and white. Well yeah, but that didn't stop you from saying that about me, did it? But I don't talk about you here, I just mention that the whole "start with F/Z" recommendation idea is based on the assumption to watch only the anime side of the franchise. My mistake. I think your wording for this point confused me a bit before, so I ended up misreading it; but I get what you mean now. So you don't blame them but also blame them for having the wrong idea what is going of with Saber. Well, I don't "blame" them personally for seeing it that way, it's more like it bums me out that things turn out like that. The point I'm trying to make here is that while, yes, F/SN '06 is not a very good adaptation, it is nonetheless an essential part of the main story, a literal 1/3rd of it, and thus skipping it brings about some negative "side-effects" (the Saber thing being a big one) that affect the other 2/3rds. This is an assumption you made for other people right? (Just like "any viewer who hasn't watched F/SN beforehand will definitely miss out on them" for Kirei.) Yes, it's an assumption of mine, but don't I think it's an unreasonable one to make. After all, Saber's face is plastered all over the franchise's promo material, merch, etc. The "Saberface" meme in F/GO is a thing for a reason (I think Takeuchi might have even admitted she's his waifu? [citation needed])... not to mention that I have literally seen people complaining that Saber didn't get to do much in UBW, or that she didn't get any character development ("but whyyy? She was sooo cool in F/Z!"). I won't deny that Rin is a huuuge draw, though. In all 3 routes, she remains Best Girl (though imo, Rider makes for the best doujin material, lol). Lastly, I don't think my Kirei assumption is unreasonable either. I really don't know how viewers would be able to pick up on his parallels with Shirou when he only appears for like 5 seconds at the end of F/Z. True, they could "retroactively" pick up on them by thinking back and reflecting on it after having watched HF 3 (when those parallels are made most apparent), or by simply rewatching F/Z. But as they're in the process of watching it for the first time? As their first Fate anime? They definitely wouldn't notice. |
Stygian_PrisonerAug 31, 2021 11:37 PM
Stygian_Prisoner said: That's why I stuck to looking into more "neutral" sources such as the Type-Moon Wiki. Which is written mainly by people who started with the source (aka VN purists). Stygian_Prisoner said: I'm planning to follow the LN release order for the Monogatari series (instead of the anime release order), once I get around to it eventually. I bet the order is also no that important...but there is a slight difference in comparison to Fate. Like as far as I know Monogatari is somehow homogenous and the titles vary only on how interesting the stories in them are but F/Z and some of the spin-offs and the alternatives are different in tone and style than F/SN, F/SN UBW and F/SN HF. Stygian_Prisoner said: Disagreeing is fine (which to be fair, you've done so respectfully for most of my other points), but the thing is when you keep framing your argument around the notion that the other side is "imitating/bandwagoning" a certain group, you're implying that their opinion holds no value since it's not one that they formed on their own. That, to me, reads as an attempt to invalidate. The "watch F/Z and skip the rest" guys are doing the same imitating/bandwagoning thing. Point is I prefer "If you like X and don't mind Y start with N1, if like X and hate Y start with N2, if you like Z start with N3...". Stygian_Prisoner said: Well yeah, but that didn't stop you from saying that about me, did it? Blame this on you using the "i" word. |
alshu said: Which is written mainly by people who started with the source (aka VN purists). True, but i don't think their personal stances really matter when it comes to writing Wikis, since those sites are mainly used for more general, matter-of-fact info (e.g., "Heaven's Feel is the third and final route in F/SN", "Hollow Ataraxia is a sequel spin-off VN", etc.), rather than being used for blogs, opinion-piece articles, discussion forums and the like afaik. I bet the order is also no that important Hmm, i dunno. I've read somewhere that following the anime release order for Monogatari may ruin some character arcs, and that some plot points would get cleared up too late (as in, it'll leave you in the dark for way longer than it's supposed to). But i won't delve into this any further, since i've yet to watch any of it myself. Blame this on you using the "i" word. Oh, the humanity, not the "i" word! May the Lord forbid i suffer such lapses in judgment once more and dare utter that most wretched and vile of curses upon denizens of the pure, hallowed ground that is the Internet, lest i find myself locked into yet another days-long conflict against one of their self-righteous Warriors from the Board of Keys! Anyways, good talk, mate. |
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