Attack on Titan
| George RR Martin said that writers are either gardeners (spondaneous based on character whim) or architects (plan ahead and build up to it) Isayama not only is clearly an architect, but is numerically and qualitatively the best and most detail-oriented architect in fiction out there. There is nothing that is even that close to the ambitious, analytical genius undertaken by him. Nothing has as much foreshadowing, references that complex, that numerous and that layered as his work. It's funny because before Attack on Titan, the closest thing that comes to mind is not even a drama, it's a comedy called Arrested Development. Thank you, Isayama. |
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| Will his architecture be able to withstand the rumbling? We'll all see in 1 week's time. |
MAQS said: Yeah he is a good architect. The best though? Dont think so, there are plenty of clear improvised stuff in the story, is just that when the reveals happen these mistakes are very easy to forget. I say this as AOT being potentially my favorite series ever. The 'improvised' argument doesn't make much sense. All fiction is improvised. Now, whether it was spontaneous or not doesn't mean much either. No one work of ficiton is planned 100% through, but nothing else comex close to the degree to which it is planned out. Comparatively speaking, he is the best architect by being better than everyone else. |
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1Kyo said: Mikasa said: George RR Martin said that writers are either gardeners (spondaneous based on character whim) or architects (plan ahead and build up to it) Isayama not only is clearly an architect, but is numerically and qualitatively the best and most detail-oriented architect in fiction out there. There is nothing that is even that close to the ambitious, analytical genius undertaken by him. Nothing has as much foreshadowing, references that complex, that numerous and that layered as his work. It's funny because before Attack on Titan, the closest thing that comes to mind is not even a drama, it's a comedy called Arrested Development. Thank you, Isayama. When it comes to manga publications, being an architect is really the only choice. The idea behind a gardener is creating a set-up, then "letting the story write itself". In Stephen King's book on writing he shapes the analogy of discovering a fossil (being the story), then excavating it as undamaged as possible. Those are the kind of stories that end up feeling the most natural, albeit usually not being as spectacular in their development. While publishing a manga, you're forced to stick to a release schedule (weekly or monthly, usually). You can't change what you already released. If you were trying to be a gardener under these circumstances, you'd just be freestyling, gambling on it working out somehow. As a mangaka you're forced to think ahead and plot your story. I believe calling a writer an architect is a weird way to compliment someone. The term only describes the method by which the author writes their story. There are good and bad architects, and they're not inherently better than gardeners. Actually most writers do write as they go along a la gardener variety. Togashi is my favorite when it comes to this. Kishimoto, Oda are also like that. They all do plan a few plot lines here and there but the story goes from full on adventure based on a character's whim (hxh) to episodic sitcom style romp (one piece) So it's not true all mangakas are architects. Nor is it true that architects are better than gardeners. They are simply different sports. Isayama just happens to be the best at his. |
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| The best? Lol Have you ever heard of J.R.R Tolkien? |
ChocoKoyokoyo said: The best? Lol Have you ever heard of J.R.R Tolkien? Yeah his work was experimental. It was good back in the day but now it hasn't aged well. Also it feels more like a grocery trip than an adventure. The Sil is just a boring nerdfest for me. So I fail to see how he was a decent architect to begin with. Half his work is eagle this, eagle that. |
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Mikasa said: ChocoKoyokoyo said: The best? Lol Have you ever heard of J.R.R Tolkien? Yeah his work was experimental. It was good back in the day but now it hasn't aged well. Also it feels more like a grocery trip than an adventure. The Sil is just a boring nerdfest for me. So I fail to see how he was a decent architect to begin with. Half his work is eagle this, eagle that. "Eagle this, eagle that." That made me chuckle. I'm not a big fan of Tolkien tbh, I just respect the madlad. |
1Kyo said: Mikasa said: Actually most writers do write as they go along a la gardener variety. Togashi is my favorite when it comes to this. Kishimoto, Oda are also like that. They all do plan a few plot lines here and there but the story goes from full on adventure based on a character's whim (hxh) to episodic sitcom style romp (one piece) So it's not true all mangakas are architects. Nor is it true that architects are better than gardeners. They are simply different sports. Isayama just happens to be the best at his. You appear to misunderstand something about the definition of an architect. Being an architect in writing does not mean completely turning away from gardener writing. You cannot plot everything. You're still going to "garden" your story from point A to B, steering it towards the direction of point B. This is what Togashi does, but that does not make him a gardener. This is also what Isayama and every other architect do, while still being architects. >You appear to misunderstand something about the definition of an architect. Being an architect in writing does not mean completely turning away from gardener writing. You cannot plot everything. Dude this is literally what I just said so what are you on about? "The 'improvised' argument doesn't make much sense. All fiction is improvised. Now, whether it was spontaneous or not doesn't mean much either. No one work of ficiton is planned 100% through" >This is what Togashi does, but that does not make him a gardener. This is also what Isayama and every other architect do, while still being architects. Your logic here is flawed, as to the causality. You garden your way from A to B, yeah, but you also architect the overall garden design conversely. This is a loop, and you can't show what a writer is by pointing it out. Gon himself says he will simply go on to see what made his father leave him, what's so great about being a hunter? That's it. He then goes to the exam, he meets people, based on those events, he ends up visiting the Zoldyck estate and winds up training with Wing because the Arena happens to be where Killua used to fight. Then they go home and Killua himself says he'll 'just wing it' following Gon until he finds something he wants to do. It's the core of an adventure series. So no, by your own counterpoint, just because there's planning, doesn't make Togashi an architect. It defeats the very purpose of the show, the detours, the branches. |
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RoyalGodyssey said: He’s good, but asserting that he’s the best and most genius architect writer out there is dumb. My personal vote for that would be Naoki Urasawa, but I’m not going to tell everyone that that’s the objective truth. I second this, his writing in Monster is unparalleled. Every twist and turn in the story makes us question time and time again who really is Johan Liebert, our perspective on him keeps constantly changing. |
r3su said: RoyalGodyssey said: He’s good, but asserting that he’s the best and most genius architect writer out there is dumb. My personal vote for that would be Naoki Urasawa, but I’m not going to tell everyone that that’s the objective truth. I second this, his writing in Monster is unparalleled. Every twist and turn in the story makes us question time and time again who really is Johan Liebert, our perspective on him keeps constantly changing. It was good, but hardly close to the complexity of AOT. That's the thing about crime thrillers, they usually are one-trick ponies. (maybe an exagerration for Monster but the idea...) |
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Mikasa said: r3su said: I second this, his writing in Monster is unparalleled. Every twist and turn in the story makes us question time and time again who really is Johan Liebert, our perspective on him keeps constantly changing. It was good, but hardly close to the complexity of AOT. ???????????????????? |
| Claiming any author is the best at anything is kinda ignorant considering there have been millions of writers throughout history. I personally think Romance of the Three Kingdoms is one of the greatest pieces of writing ever yet I wouldn't claim that Luo Guanzhong is the greatest drama writer ever. Partially because there are debates about his existence but also because I haven't read or watch enough books, television, comics, plays, etc. Considering there are billions of pieces of fiction out there, I doubt anyone read enough to make that claim. |
| Isayama's writing is incredible and it always has been |
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Roger1 said: One Piece world building is better OP doesn't really have 'world building' It has world-mashing. It simply reskins fairy tales and recycles its own arcs as different real world cultures. Alabasta arc in egypt, alabasta arc in venice, alabasta arc in barcelona, etc. After the Romance Dawn saga showing the Grandline the real worldbuilding died down. The same ideas get rationed out over prolonged periods of time. |
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JasperSagahl said: you do realize that isayma changed what the original ending was gonna be while writing it? he even said in an interview that he had initially planned to kill everyone. so i doubt that he planned what is happening now before he started writing it. good writer but definitely not perfect. You do realize architects can change plans? It makes him even more impressive that his modified ending works much better |
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Roger1 said: Mikasa said: OP doesn't really have 'world building' It has world-mashing. It simply reskins fairy tales and recycles its own arcs as different real world cultures. Alabasta arc in egypt, alabasta arc in venice, alabasta arc in barcelona, etc. After the Romance Dawn saga showing the Grandline the real worldbuilding died down. The same ideas get rationed out over prolonged periods of time. OP doesn’t have world building??? I’m pretty sure you haven’t read OP then or if you did then you didn’t understand its complexity. One Piece has one of the best, if not the best, world building in manga history. Look I'm happy y'all are impressed with the OP/Boruto variety. I think they have their charm too, and its their simplicity. They're comfort fiction I'd watch when I don't want to overthink stuff, so no need to be defensive about it. |
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Roger1 said: Mikasa said: Look I'm happy y'all are impressed with the OP/Boruto variety. I think they have their charm too, and its their simplicity. They're comfort fiction I'd watch when I don't want to overthink stuff, so no need to be defensive about it. One Piece isn’t really simple though lol. I also don’t think aot is “that” complex. It’s pretty easy to understand and follow especially when it became political. The manga now even became simpler cause it straight up became a typical shounen. It's pretty simple for me. 1000 chapters, 900 of them are Luffy vs boss fight and his crew having secondary filler fights. The rest is actual plot progress. It's a milking mechanism to make the series seem like it has more substance by rationing out the plot. Cheap trick, imo, but effective. It's basically a soap opera in a fantasy setting. |
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Roger1 said: Mikasa said: It's pretty simple for me. 1000 chapters, 900 of them are Luffy vs boss fight and his crew having secondary filler fights. The rest is actual plot progress. It's a milking mechanism to make the series seem like it has more substance by rationing out the plot. Cheap trick, imo, but effective. It's basically a soap opera in a fantasy setting. Okay I’m now 100% sure you haven’t actually read it then since you’re saying some typical one piece hater lines hahaha :) Common sentiment towards a common show doesn't make so many people 'haters.' I think you need to relax and accept the show for what it is. |
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| Not the best but in anime one of the best I've seen. |
| a Perfect Architect means a literal Architect lol but ok sure you can label him like that as a writer |
| @1Kyo >No, you do not "architect the garden design" as a gardener. The gardener does not know how the garden looks until it's finished. The architect already knows how it looks before he starts building. Actually you do. From the start you decide what kind of plant you want, what kind of size to grow to, maybe the overall hedging style etc. Same with writing. You still have a general idea, as articulated by GRRM himself. >My point is that every architect is also gardening, and that does not make them gardeners. Except when they're not architects in the first place. >The way I see it, Hunter x Hunter is clearly plotted. He is thinking ahead Once again the logical fallacy here, which I fail to see how this is hard to understand, as your assumption that gardeneders are one hundred percent blind and are clueless. Yet the logic that fails you here you readily use the other way around. You don't plan an apple seed thinking you'll have apricots. I think you should watch GRRM's explanation of what gardeners are. It's not lootcrates and kinder surprises, of course they plan their stories much as architects improvise parts of theirs. A gardener is a writer that branches out from one point to another that the main character does not plan, and the story is lead by the characters' decisions from that point on. General concepts are planned (nen, greed island, spiders) but the time and place and the events are written based on character development. Take AOT: you read later chapters and they explain more and more about the initial chapters. Things you didn't understand finally start to make sense. HxH doesn't have that. Because in HxH, that's not important. It's a story that goes from humble beginnings to great events because the character went there. In AOT they are already embroiled in a world of conspiracies and complications and the flashbacks show after the fact that there was planning for the future far ahead of time. In all of HxH you can name nen and five other elements that were present/foreshadowed from the beginning. MOST of which are worldbuilding and not plot. Bhaskar_Singh said: Mikasa said: What about Martin himself? He an architect or a gardner?George RR Martin said that writers are either gardeners (spondaneous based on character whim) or architects (plan ahead and build up to it) Isayama not only is clearly an architect, but is numerically and qualitatively the best and most detail-oriented architect in fiction out there. There is nothing that is even that close to the ambitious, analytical genius undertaken by him. Nothing has as much foreshadowing, references that complex, that numerous and that layered as his work. It's funny because before Attack on Titan, the closest thing that comes to mind is not even a drama, it's a comedy called Arrested Development. Thank you, Isayama. He's a self-proclaimed gardener |
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Fiveskies said: Roger1 said: One Piece world building is better I don't respect freestyle world building , just my opinion Aot world building is better . Is that what they call it? I call it mish-mash worldbuilding lol. |
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| Just another thread made by the OP to get their own cock sucked while outrightly denying everybody having even a slightly different opinion. Classic. I love your threads and your replies OP. They help me keep my own fanboyism and delusions over my personal favorites in check. |
| "Life is too bitter, so coffee, at least should be sweet..." - Hikigaya Hachiman (Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatte Iru) |
| Insulting other people, you have a weird concept of keeping things 'in check' Buddy, this is a forum, there will be arguments and disagreements and not everyone has to cow for the sake of fake civility nor is it rude to call out flaws in arguments. Stop being a little boy/girl and calm down. |
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Mikasa said: I generally try to avoid labeling people because I hate that stuff. The only reason why I came out so strong on you is because of your behavior towards the people having a different opinion. The heavy bias you hold for AoT is so blatantly clear. This thread is just turning out like your thread called-- "Chapter 131 is the best manga chapter" or smth. You keep doing what you were doing there, just downplaying people who were bringing legit arguments, or keeping mum when you were lost for words. Insulting other people, you have a weird concept of keeping things 'in check' Buddy, this is a forum, there will be arguments and disagreements and not everyone has to cow for the sake of fake civility nor is it rude to call out flaws in arguments. Stop being a little boy/girl and calm down. Your behavior is akin to a little girl falling in love for the first time. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but with how much insight you have and how much mature you are than me, you should at least realize how toxic you are being. Right? Just a food for thought. |
| "Life is too bitter, so coffee, at least should be sweet..." - Hikigaya Hachiman (Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatte Iru) |
| No. The 'only reason' is that you are strongly attached to a comic and cannot candle the fact someone isn't liking it and is trying to give reasons that you can't invalidate with your headcanon. People on these forums need to realize how dumb it is to use words like bias in such context. We're not refereeing a debate club. This is a site where people like certain shit and express that they like certain shit. Liking something inherently puts bias and lack thereof out of the picture. It's irrelevant. If you don't agree with me that X is the best shit ever, then you're heavily biased towards Y or Z or whatever. Deal with it. "Your behavior is akin to a little girl| So we're reverting to sexism I see? |
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Mikasa said: No. The 'only reason' is that you are strongly attached to a comic and cannot candle the fact someone isn't liking it and is trying to give reasons that you can't invalidate with your headcanon. People on these forums need to realize how dumb it is to use words like bias in such context. We're not refereeing a debate club. This is a site where people like certain shit and express that they like certain shit. Liking something inherently puts bias and lack thereof out of the picture. It's irrelevant. If you don't agree with me that X is the best shit ever, then you're heavily biased towards Y or Z or whatever. Deal with it. "Your behavior is akin to a little girl| So we're reverting to sexism I see? dude, antagonizing everyone is never a good idea, consider what you're saying |
Japperyeen said: I like his writing it’s just too bad he’s a Japanese nationalist. I didn't get that vibe from him. Considering how small a role Mikasa and Hizuru have in the story. I think the biggest Japanese presence in manganime is Wano arc in OP but even then I wouldn't say it went overboard by any means. r3su said: Mikasa said: No. The 'only reason' is that you are strongly attached to a comic and cannot candle the fact someone isn't liking it and is trying to give reasons that you can't invalidate with your headcanon. People on these forums need to realize how dumb it is to use words like bias in such context. We're not refereeing a debate club. This is a site where people like certain shit and express that they like certain shit. Liking something inherently puts bias and lack thereof out of the picture. It's irrelevant. If you don't agree with me that X is the best shit ever, then you're heavily biased towards Y or Z or whatever. Deal with it. "Your behavior is akin to a little girl| So we're reverting to sexism I see? dude, antagonizing everyone is never a good idea, consider what you're saying 'Everyone' being touchy people who can't take disagreements? I honestly couldn't care if they took offense at other people's favorite shows. |
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Mikasa said: George RR Martin said that writers are either gardeners (spondaneous based on character whim) or architects (plan ahead and build up to it) Isayama not only is clearly an architect, but is numerically and qualitatively the best and most detail-oriented architect in fiction out there. There is nothing that is even that close to the ambitious, analytical genius undertaken by him. Nothing has as much foreshadowing, references that complex, that numerous and that layered as his work. It's funny because before Attack on Titan, the closest thing that comes to mind is not even a drama, it's a comedy called Arrested Development. Thank you, Isayama. I respect someone's choice on whether they like something or not. But by you saying that no other story ever written comes close to AoT genius writing is ignorant. AoT has plenty of problems just like every other story my favorite shows and games have flaws I admit too. |
CyborgSaber said: Mikasa said: George RR Martin said that writers are either gardeners (spondaneous based on character whim) or architects (plan ahead and build up to it) Isayama not only is clearly an architect, but is numerically and qualitatively the best and most detail-oriented architect in fiction out there. There is nothing that is even that close to the ambitious, analytical genius undertaken by him. Nothing has as much foreshadowing, references that complex, that numerous and that layered as his work. It's funny because before Attack on Titan, the closest thing that comes to mind is not even a drama, it's a comedy called Arrested Development. Thank you, Isayama. I respect someone's choice on whether they like something or not. But by you saying that no other story ever written comes close to AoT genius writing is ignorant. AoT has plenty of problems just like every other story my favorite shows and games have flaws I admit too. Yes and AOT has fewer problems than the other ones. There I admit it too. This argument that you have to debilitate your own arguments to sound 'fair' is nonsense. I point out flaws in shows too, it's just that this show has very few. That's what makes it the best. I fail to see how this intuitive concept is lost on people. |
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| read the manga 132-138, lmao you will regret your massive dicksucking for this hack. He is no architect he just ruined his story |
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W3lkin830 said: read the manga 132-138, lmao you will regret your massive dicksucking for this hack. He is no architect he just ruined his story Chapters 132-138 are what made SNK my all-time favorite manga. It used to be 3rd. So, I don't think re-reading them is gonna change that lol. |
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Mikasa said: CyborgSaber said: I respect someone's choice on whether they like something or not. But by you saying that no other story ever written comes close to AoT genius writing is ignorant. AoT has plenty of problems just like every other story my favorite shows and games have flaws I admit too. Yes and AOT has fewer problems than the other ones. There I admit it too. This argument that you have to debilitate your own arguments to sound 'fair' is nonsense. I point out flaws in shows too, it's just that this show has very few. That's what makes it the best. I fail to see how this intuitive concept is lost on people. All I'm trying to say is it's ignorant to call AoT the greatest story ever put to paper which is your opinion it's fine if you say this is my favorite show ever and say why. AoT does have fewer flaws than most but it still has plenty season 3 part 2 is so far the only 10/10 for me and I read the manga it gets pretty dumb towards the end but that my opinion and you have yours. |
Mikasa said: W3lkin830 said: read the manga 132-138, lmao you will regret your massive dicksucking for this hack. He is no architect he just ruined his story Chapters 132-138 are what made SNK my all-time favorite manga. It used to be 3rd. So, I don't think re-reading them is gonna change that lol. do you really think, wanking a character, constant inconsistencies, asspulls, shitty dialogue, bad action, messy moments that make no sense and rendering the MC useless is good? i mean you are a shonenfag so its no surprise that you like avengers capeshit chapters. From a consistency and thematical perspective SnK last stretch 132-138 is objectively bad |
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