Re:ZERO -Starting Life in Another World- (light novel)
| > Emilia who acts like a person less wise then a 16 y old girl, despite being an 100+ year old elf That is your assumption lmao, Emilia is 14 mentally, her body is hundreds of years old because she was frozen on ice. No mention of her age was made in Season 1. And no shit Subaru was dumb, that's his character arc. He's a deeply flawed person and his entire arc revolves around his pathological desire to be the hero and to have people need him, with him swooping in to save the day. Arc 3 is about slapping him in the face with reality, making him realize he's no manga protagonist, and have him work on his flaws. Not even gonna bother with the rest of your points since they just boil down to "why didn't Subaru choose MY waifu", "just get used to dying lol" and "fuck emilia". You didn't become wiser, you just seem to be throwing a tantrum for some reason. |
| Point one: The point is to establish Subaru did have literally no life skills. He is supposed to represent the average neet. Second point IDK if that's stupid. People panic or lack context in stressful situations. I would have to watch the episode again. You seem upset that this guy functionally is pathetic when yeah that is the point. Your average neet would screw up consistently without any skills. Plus Subaru is actually more talented than the average NEET if not just due to the fact he is in shape and actually does have some resolve. His character does evolve throughout S1 and again I have been told S1 is like the prologue so it's obvious Subaru is going to develop over a long period of time. He might end up in the Eren scenario honestly. Point Two: Vague point I don't really consider either to be better characters personally. I think you would have to expand more no how they should win it. The other candidates have better support lines in that they are either human, tons of wealth some with their own private armies. Emilia obviously is a major underdog. Plus will have to see in S2 what their overall plan is the election barely kicked off after S1 ended. Point Three: Yeah it does again Subaru is basically a representation of a white knight. It's one of his major flaws and the story really beats you over the head how this kinda of guy is a very poor role model. The guy has had little social contact I assume and here is this is really beautiful girl that he feels like gave him attention/was kind to him. Plus personally I am kind of guy who hates being indebted to others so you want to repay the favor in some sort of way. Subaru is the same. He doesn't respect himself yeah no shit that was literally in his rant that he acts arrogant because he is deeply insecure. He wants Emilia to look at him as someone capable but he isn't. Point Four: Again from Subaru's point of view she is kind person and one of his only allies in the world. Your average NEET is not paying that much attention to politics nor has that much real world interaction to gauge something like that. Even if they did once again they have very little knowledge of the world it's history, economy, military, social issues etc. If I drop you in a foreign land where you can't read the language it's going to be hard for you to gauge and make an educated political opinion. Most people are going to look at someone being kind and caring and say yeah that person could be a great leader. Plus again it plays into the fact Subaru is a white knight. There are guys who do act like that and exalt the woman they have interest in. Point Five: Well again you are arguing that everything Subaru has done is for romance and while sure he loves Emilla he definitely feels some obligation to her and realizes how much in danger she is. You are reducing his interest in her way too much. You are also reducing how people cope with death, trauma and PTSD. It isn't that simple that was maybe his only motivation in like the first episode. Point Six: We actually don't know why Roswall is interested in Emilia so I don't know his intentions maybe he doesn't value her maybe there is something else there. We also don't know his finances or actual support. Honestly it's like Emilia has more power than your average guard group he could afford (like from what I remember he is a small time noble compared to the assets some of these guys have). It's been a bit of time since i watched it but what I remember Beatrice isn't like his personal servant she has her own interests and isn't entitled to protect Emilia she is basically cooped up researching and doing the things she cares about. Yeah they have more capacity because they have more support that doesn't mean they would be better rulers inherently. So I don't really find a lot your points to be good criticism. A lot of it is just attacking the fact that Emilia has way less resources than the other contenders and the fact that Subaru acts pathetically which again is part of his whole character arc. He isn't supposed to be a responsible or capable person. You can critique if you don't feel like a pathetic neet would act that way either but just hating the fact that he is flawed I don't find is a legitimate critique. Honestly I think Rem is kinda bland waifu bait character Emilia is kinda close to that as well. Subaru honestly is the best character in Re Zero by far and without him I would have rated the show a lot lower. A lot of the side cast isn't that interesting. I know people have hyped up the later stuff partially because Emilia gets a lot of development so I am hopeful on that front. The female cast needs more satisfying development. |
BilboBaggins365Apr 23, 2020 11:56 AM
| Too much effort to pick apart your flawed arguments piece by piece... I'll just point out one major inconsistency. "Rem is great because she acts her age" ...but you hate Subaru for having these same qualities. He is an unremarkable 17 year old boy zapped from the comfortable life of 1st world nation into a medieval fantasy realm and behaves accordingly. Subaru is realistic, Rem is not. On what planet does an 18 year old girl act like Rem? "Rem is great because she's loyal." Subaru pledged his undying love to Emilia and promised to help her achieve her goals. But now he's shit because...why? For not running off to live in hiding with Rem, and abandoning everyone else to be butchered by the witch cult? For not rejecting Emilia as soon as an easier love interest showed her face? For not siding with Emilia's rivals because her goals are too ambitious? If that's not loyalty, what is? |
epidemia78Apr 22, 2020 4:53 PM
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| Rem is a obsessive. The show portrays that pretty well in how she idolized Ram and then Subaru. She’s far from perfect. |
| Down on the West Coast They got a sayin' |
TolkienFan365 said: Honestly I think Rem is kinda bland waifu bait character Emilia is kinda close to that as well. Rem isn't waifu bait, the fans' idealized vision made her into one. A character in the later arcs literally spells out her character: "an imperfect being who only feels alive when she's giving everything for someone else." When Subaru met her, she wasn't even Rem, but a faceless replacement for her sister due to her extreme inferiority complex. Then Subaru gave her some sense of identity and she became Subaru's Rem. Rem feels like her existence only has meaning so long as she's useful to Subaru, and so long as she helps keep up that idealized "hero" vision of Subaru that she has. I do hope her character arc culminates in her finally finding a full sense of identity and moving on from Subaru to just become Rem and stand on her own, not in the shadow of Ram or Subaru. She's a very interesting and deeply flawed person that most people only care to take at face value, when she's more than a "supportive waifu". Emilia is pretty bland though. She's barely a character in season 1, though thankfully season 2 will change that. |
Jaesan said: TolkienFan365 said: Honestly I think Rem is kinda bland waifu bait character Emilia is kinda close to that as well. Rem isn't waifu bait, the fans' idealized vision made her into one. A character in the later arcs literally spells out her character: "an imperfect being who only feels alive when she's giving everything for someone else." When Subaru met her, she wasn't even Rem, but a faceless replacement for her sister due to her extreme inferiority complex. Then Subaru gave her some sense of identity and she became Subaru's Rem. Rem feels like her existence only has meaning so long as she's useful to Subaru, and so long as she helps keep up that idealized "hero" vision of Subaru that she has. She's a very interesting and deeply flawed person that most people only care to take at face value, when she's more than a "supportive waifu". Emilia is pretty bland though. She's barely a character in season 1, though thankfully season 2 will change that. I guess IDK it just feels like another cute character who has a tragic backstory that everyone likes purely off her devotion to Subaru. I think if they kinda criticize her obsessive behavior more as the show goes on that could be interesting. I don't hate her character I just don't find her that interesting or good at least not more than Subaru which this guy has implied she is. Though yeah one reason I was excited for the new season is that I knew other characters like Emilia were going to get more development. |
TolkienFan365 said: I guess IDK it just feels like another cute character who has a tragic backstory that everyone likes purely off her devotion to Subaru. I think if they kinda criticize her obsessive behavior more as the show goes on that could be interesting. I don't hate her character I just don't find her that interesting or good at least not more than Subaru which this guy has implied she is. Though yeah one reason I was excited for the new season is that I knew other characters like Emilia were going to get more development. I can see your point of view, the show doesn't slap you in the face with her flaws like it does with Subaru. It's a lot more evident in the novels due to the medium (obviously), but the anime still did put some pointers of her creepy behavior, like how she admitted to watching Subaru sleep (to which Subaru even replied "wait, did you just say something creepy?") and especially the way she lashes out at the cultists. Not to mention how cruel she can be to those that don't fall into her small circle of idealized people, like how she tortured Subaru before he gained her trust. I think of season 1 as a fine character study of both Subaru and Rem, with the rest being just elements of setup and prologue (all up until episode 18 was mostly a prologue, after all). Season 2 will develop a much wider cast now that the characters are established. I'm not particularly hyped about Emilia (who does shine), but mostly Beatrice, Roswaal and Subaru, who will have incredible arcs throughout (along with a pair of new characters). |
Jaesan said: TolkienFan365 said: I guess IDK it just feels like another cute character who has a tragic backstory that everyone likes purely off her devotion to Subaru. I think if they kinda criticize her obsessive behavior more as the show goes on that could be interesting. I don't hate her character I just don't find her that interesting or good at least not more than Subaru which this guy has implied she is. Though yeah one reason I was excited for the new season is that I knew other characters like Emilia were going to get more development. I can see your point of view, the show doesn't slap you in the face with her flaws like it does with Subaru. It's a lot more evident in the novels due to the medium (obviously), but the anime still did put some pointers of her creepy behavior, like how she admitted to watching Subaru sleep (to which Subaru even replied "wait, did you just say something creepy?") and especially the way she lashes out at the cultists. Not to mention how cruel she can be to those that don't fall into her small circle of idealized people, like how she tortured Subaru before he gained her trust. I think of season 1 as a fine character study of both Subaru and Rem, with the rest being just elements of setup and prologue (all up until episode 18 was mostly a prologue, after all). Season 2 will develop a much wider cast now that the characters are established. I'm not particularly hyped about Emilia (who does shine), but mostly Beatrice, Roswaal and Subaru, who will have incredible arcs throughout (along with a pair of new characters). Yeah that's a fair point I guess the series points that out but the fans romanticize it. Though yeah I am excited for S2 for that reason. |
| @SinOfSlothKing I mean I personally don't care what you find annoying or not. To me all that really matters is that the characters behaves in a way that makes sense. In my opinion Subaru does so. The story doesn't justify his actions and opens up criticism of this behavior as well as giving him opportunities to change and shine. Plus he does have noble qualities in his bravery for instance. Personally I like very flawed characters as long as the story is aware of those flaws. Your second point around Naruto has no relation to the question does Subaru work as a character? Re Zero is going after how some isekai's over estimate what the average person would be able to do in that setting. If anything Subaru still is somewhat idealized due to being in somewhat good shape and not the worst looker. This trope isn't repeated outside of Subaru's character and if it's awkward your implying the story doesn't convey it well so then explain how it doesn't portray a person like this well. To me you just don't like the idea of the character vs the character not being well written. (which is further justified in my opinion considering characters you are bringing up as examples of being "good" characters and even some of your favourites) Second point yeah but that is the surface. If it's just simply killing the dragon there could be others he could work with. Crusch has more military resources why doesn't he just back her then? There is something about Emilia that has drawn him to her specifically from my anime only point of view. Also he has a mansion doesn't equal having a PMC. Rich guy sure Jeff Bezos of that world not even close. From what I can tell he is just another land owner even compared to Felt he offers the least amount of support. I doubt there are that many people who are actually on even Emilia's or even Rem and Ram's level that are just easy to hire off the streets. To me there is very little known about him so if this aspect is ignored sure it can be a legit criticism but considering people have told me he gets a lot of focus in the next season I am going to reserve criticism there until the next season when his motives are more understood. Third point. Those two goals aren't contradictory. Well for the first critique there are a lot of famous leaders that barely had experience that did pretty well for themselves such as the Roman Emperor Claudius who also had little support and experience ruling the entire empire. Second point yeah that could be a character flaw she has to grow past that doesn't mean she can't grow. Third point again yeah it's a character flaw that could lead for potential development. Also since we are bringing up Aragon he had more experience on the virtue of being alive longer and he also had a character flaw regarding the fact he rejected his people. He wasn't a perfect character either. Fourth point the story hasn't addressed that yet and LN have told me that there is a reason behind that is rationalized. I don't even know if Emillia is aware of what Puck would do in the even of her death. Unless the recent OVA has gone into that or you are a LN reader. (if so don't spoil it for me) The other candidates are better qualified? Literally Crusch is the only other person. Anastasia policies could lead to a major social class gap where a few guilds control everything like a fantasy/medieval corporatocracy and Priscilla would be Caligula 2.0. Felt just literally wants to declare anarchy and open season on everyone. I mean personally Emilia would be my second candidate (Crusch being the most currently capable) because the rest of them all would be terrible rulers. Crusch is the only current capable person and Emilia is someone that if she received some experience it wouldn't be impossible to forge her into a benevolent but rational ruler. |
BilboBaggins365Apr 23, 2020 5:33 PM
SinOfSlothKing said: Now,,despite the fact he clearly needs her on the throne, his actions don't point to that at all..... He lets her go to the capital unprotected(where she dies btw....). He is absent most of the time in the series, right from the start actually, since when subaru wakes up at the mansion Roswal just arrived too. He basicly provides no protection for her, and that's his only purpuse in season 1. Hmm, I wonder why... it's almost as if he knew Subaru would turn up and acted accordingly. Just throwing that out there. I don't know why you even bring up those points for Emilia. Yes, she would be a horrible ruler, the show points out on multiple occasions that she is naive and on top of that, the public opinion is against her. It would be terribly boring if she didn't have to struggle her way to the top by maturing and also fixing people's opinion on her, all the while competing with the other candidates who are much more experienced and competent. There are actually several points to nitpick about the show if you wish to hate on it, but you haven't hit the nail on the head yet. |
| Much like how you hate Subaru's obsession with Emilia, you should also see a problem in why Rem is obsessed with Subaru. In all the timelines she died, she went suicidal in Subaru's place despite him asking her not to do anything rash. Similar to how Emilia had asked Subaru not to do anything rash.= but he did it anyway. In the timeline Rem has survived (i.e., Subaru taking the right decisions) she has no recollections of her going suicidal for him. Plus, she barely even interacted with Subaru apart from the Mabeast encounter (something Rem herself admits). Yet she lays down her heart completely and narrates a long dream of having run away with him and having babies with him? (excluding the even more weird stuff she did to Subaru in the novels). Her character growth is simply stunted, as someone above has already pointed out. This is pretty much intentional by the author. How Subaru sees Emilia is exactly how Rem sees Subaru. If you can point a finger at Subaru for being obsessed with Emilia, the author is pointing a finger at you for not doing the same with Rem. SinOfSlothKing said: I remember that many people kept saing that this anime portrays how people react well when around death, and how despite the fact Subaru is in essence a GOD with his power, he still fears death....well i call bullshit on that....why? That probably wasn't the point. The point of people reacting well to the deaths is valid if you consider the behaviour of people around Subaru. Try piecing together a number of No-death-timelines. In the eyes of others, Subaru is someone who just popped out of nowhere, someone who is jolly at one point, cries suddenly in the next moment or acts like an enraged or irritated fellow. Then he is someone who just straight up tells he is aware of some Witch Cult conspiracies and wants to protect people. Who in the right minds would believe him? He simply is a madman in the eyes of others. For example, Crusch's blessing told her he isn't lying but she couldn't trust him either because he did not have any evidence to back his claims up. If she did trust him just like that, she would lose credibility infront of others as a ruler who chooses to believe in rumors. Emilia on multiple occasions approaches Subaru and asks him to tell everything to her (which nobody else tried, not even Rem) but he was drunk with the idea of seeing Emilia as his 'trophy'. That's when Emilia straight up told him " the version of me inside you must be amazing" a.k.a. someone that can understand everything without proper communication. This is where the plot device of Satella steps in. If Subaru has an intent to tell others about his condition, Satella kills them off (as seen in Episode 17 when Emilia dropped dead infront of him). SinOfSlothKing said: Think about it....Emilia wants the throne to protect people, but is not capable to protect her own surrounding teritory....if anything this should have been a wake up call for Subaru to make Emilia give up the throne since he has seen on several ocasions that she is indeed unfit to rule. All she has is passion and good will, but she cant deliver. Emilia's wish to protect people is not her primary goal. She wants the throne for her own reasons (hinted in the anime as 'her selfish reason' in episode 25. Frozen bonds OVA may tell you more about this). I also think that Emilia is unfit to be a good ruler but it fits her current character because ruling people isn't her main goal. She wants the throne for her own reasons. About Rem... SinOfSlothKing said: 1. She straight out has more screentime!!!!<--- right here the most important reason Rem is just shown roughly 20 minutes more than Emilia. Effectively one episode extra. Proof? I counted the minutes while I was busy splicing the bdrips of Re:zero to create a single No-death-timeline from season 1. This is not the most important reason. If you wanted to describe an important reason, then it should have been that Rem was someone who would have killed Subaru without any thought before, but then turned out to be his pillar of support when he was about to give up undoing the mistakes he made with Emilia. A villain turned ally. Nobody is blaming you for preferring Rem over Emilia. You just cherrypicked Rem's role over Emilia's, equating it to as if Emilia has not done anything in the first place. I don't know about this. Maybe it is because I have read a bit of the novels and I just don't see Rem's behaviour anything like that, even after watching the anime several times. Even if I just restrict my discussion to the anime alone, she is someone who carries a goal like "I will do anything for you, even if you like somebody else". And trust me, her mindset is even more weirder in the novels. I find it highly amusing that the anime skipped that. If anything, I do agree that Rem does act her age because she is as obsessive as Subaru. Like a teenager riding on infatuation. Last but not the least... Essentialy the Roswal-Emilia faction reek of incompetence and hypocrisy(the hypocrisy of having someone who never had 1 follower/firend rule...so no experience), and i cannot stand how Subaru helps such a faction. This, I agree 99% but only if taking into account the anime's rendition of events. It is definitely the anime's issue for not having time to animate a number of key scenes (see point 3). Without spoiling anything from future seasons, 1] Roswaald is one of the strongest magic users in the story (which we know from the anime). 2] He has his own agenda of using Emilia as a puppet for the throne. This is partially hinted at in the anime but it is rather inconspicuous. More detail in point 3]. His agenda is also known anime that he wants to kill the Great Dragon. The Great Dragon is the so-called supreme being of the story. The ruler of Lugunica will become the 'High Priestess' to the Dragon (also known from the anime). So, Emilia wins -> Roswaal's puppet gets access to Dragon-> He accomplishes his objective. Why he despises the Dragon, I will not be able tell you that. 3] Puck's existence is revealed to all of the people in the court, cementing that Emilia is not one to mess with because she has one of the Big Spirits siding with her, as part of her counsel as well as military might. The Big Spirits are revered by the common folk and nobody would risk angering them. Roswaald accomplishes this by purposefully agitating an already frustrated Subaru, which leads to a huge commotion to the point of a fight breaking out between parties. This prompts Puck to reveal himself and everyone backs off. This entire scene in the anime, Roswaald...just 'smiles'. lol. But I guess it was enough of a hint for me to piece together much of point 2], before I dived into the novels. I only replied here because you said you rewatched this while claiming to be wiser. You should probably check out the manga or the novels because you probably are not any clear about the finer details in the story if you just stick with the anime. As for why things were skipped in the anime, your guess is as good as mine. However, it is undeniable that the studio tried its level best to fit as much detail possible within the limited time they had to air the series (they skipped the OP/ED in some episodes, despite having a double length 1st episode). There is just way too much information here and there to cram into the series. |
KreatorXApr 24, 2020 6:29 AM
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
SinOfSlothKing said: "You seem upset that this guy functionally is pathetic when yeah that is the point." This is a quote from u..... what i tryed to explain is that it dose not matter if that was the goal, because that is an explination for why he is annoying but not an excuse. Basicly we agree that he indeed is annoying. Like if the GOAL of the author is to make him annoying and he succeds.....well that would still make him annoying regardless if that was the goal or not.(the naruto exemple was to explain this too. The backstories of the Villains made sense 100%, but they still were awkward and repetitive after a while.) "To me you just don't like the idea of the character vs the character not being well written." Again, absolutely correct. I dont think i ever questioned the writing around subaru, with 1 exception, that being his general feelings about death. I don't like how on one hand the writer wants to characterize him as fearfull of death(this is obviously done to avoid the instant power-up where the Mc just constantly dies until he gains so much experience he is effectively a GOD, "All U Need Is Kill" style.) and on the other hand in the entire first season he only ONCE makes a decision that would confirm that....only ONCE. Its when he hides in the library on the forth day causing Rem to die(episode 7 or 8 maybe, at the mansion arc), other than that none of his actions are driven by fear of death, which i don't like....could have been handled better IMO. "Second point yeah but that is the surface. If it's just simply killing the dragon there could be others he could work with. Crusch has more military resources why doesn't he just back her then? There is something about Emilia that has drawn him to her specifically from my anime only point of view."- Because it was easier? Like she has no house/land as far as we know, and is easier to use as a pawn...this is mere speculation but it's probably a good one. About Roswal: I never asked for much, just something, at least to make it seem like he cares. About Emilia: Yeah she could develop but all I am saying is that its terribly hard for me to root for her in Season 1 for now....and no i am not a LN reader. About the other Candidate: Ok u got me here, Crush is the most fit as seen from S1 however i heard some spoilers that Anastasia is the closest thing to a capitalist so i considered her too. Jaesan said: Hmm, I wonder why... it's almost as if he knew Subaru would turn up and acted accordingly. Just throwing that out there. But Roswal suspected him of being an enamy spy all season so what are u talking about? Was he not summoned there by the witch? Let's back up here the goal is to write Subaru to be a flawed NEET. Whether you find him annoying is completely your reaction to that character archetype or how it was written. A character can be total competent Mary Sue and be annoying. Personally I don't find him annoying. His flaws mainly his pride I can relate to some degree. I do think his bravery is something that can be seen as a positive. Plus I think his realization of how out of depth he was ultimately was a good moment in Re Zero. If I compare this to another Kadakowa isekai something like Shield Hero one main issue I had is how this random 20 something year old University student can go so quickly from an ostracized character to a guy always winning over his more well supported/liked opponents so quickly. That was more annoying despite Naofumi being more competent that say Subaru. In the case of Subaru I am not annoyed because it plays into my immersion of how he should act. I would argue really the only that I thought was a little over the top was his barging into the election meeting but the fact he does try to play it cool in front of Emilia is a great depiction of his flaw that being his insane amount of pride. You bring up that you don't think it's handled well than explain? A lot of his actions are driven by fear he makes tons of decisions later on that are motivated by fear of seeing Rem, Emilia or other friends die again. Plus while the fear of death isn't as much there because of his power he literally is psychologically traumatized by the pain and seeing those close to him die over and over again. Pretty much all those impulsive decisions were motivated by fear, anger and desperation. It's Rem that gets him to stop operating out of fear and various other impulses like anger than lead him to a plan that resolves his issue. A good close to that character arc. If you argue something should be handled better explain what specifically is a flaw in his characterization then? Third point on Crusch yeah that very well could be the case. In that regard Emilia could be another small investment to him. I can't really get much into that because again I don't feel the story explored him enough so literally any conversation is based around speculation. If there is legimate criticsm applied to his character I am assuming that will be more well known in a S2 since a LN reader implied he gets focus next season. As for Emilia yeah I will say one of the big criticisms I have with Re Zero personally I don't feel like quite a few of the side characters are super well developed. I think the world despite being a typical Western High Fantasy isekai has some decent world building behind it at least compared to some isekai. I think Subaru is a good MC that you can develop around. I think the animation and music are good. The biggest issue is the side cast needs more depth. I don't think Emilia is a great character that said like Roswal I don't think there has been that much of a dive into their characters. So I am going to hold my opinion on that until whenever S2 comes out since LN readers told me it does finally start to dive in more there. |
BilboBaggins365Apr 24, 2020 3:20 PM
SinOfSlothKing said: My comment about him reacting to death is to point out on one hand that the author uses that to excuse Subaru not lvl-ing up "All U Need Is Kill" style, but on the other he dose not give enough proof for that. For example he ONLY ONCE takes a decision out of fear of death...when he hides in the library to escape the curse on the forth day just before Rem gets cursed. Okay, I thought you were referring to 'people' argument that was commonly thrown around and that is what I tried explaining. Nevertheless, if by 'people' you were only referring to Subaru, the story made it very clear that second chances won't make you immune to the fear of death. From Subaru's perspective, each death is a declaration of failure in front of him that reminds him of all of his progress being undone since he is worthless. Subaru thinking he can cheat/exploit this ability to victory is no good if he doesn't like going through deaths and more importantly, if he doesn't fix his attitude. You may see this shift in his attitude back in episode 14 (if I recall well), where he claims "Nothing is impossible as I can have as many second chances possible". Then we just see things taking a downturn for the next 4 episodes. In the mansion arc, I recall he was rather out of character for one whole episode after he tried jumping off the cliff during the standoff with Ram and Beatrice. That day he was just on the edge about not being able to do anything until Emilia calms him down. Then we have him running in outright fear from the Whale, in fear of not dying. Last but not the least, he begged to run away with Rem because he did not want to go through any of the experiences again. Ofcourse, this is a decision both out of lack of hope as well as dying to the whale again. I cannot fully empathize with the idea of 'decisions being made out of fear of death' because my brain does not understand what it is like having survived death. For the story to progress something has to happen, because if he doesnt do anything at all out of fear of death, Emilia WILL get assassinated and the world gets destroyed in the process (either by puck's pact or a special someone I won't mention). If world gets destroyed, Subaru is back to previous check point .My brain does however understand that Subaru therefore has to go through all of hell, unwillingly (even if his situation does seem comically hopeless). You have to play by the rules that the story has laid down. If there is a discrepancy there, then only point it out. If the rules themselves make no sense outside of the story, that's where everything breaks down (starting from the concept of returning to a savepoint once you die, magic, spirit etc). SinOfSlothKing said: "Frozen bonds OVA may tell you more about this" I wanted to die inside when i saw that the first OVA was about making mayonese.....so i did not even bother with the OVA-s. That is because the first OVA aimed to tie up the gap of 1 month between Episode 11 and Episode 12. It is a period of relative peace the story. Frozen Bonds OVA serves as the prequel to Season 1, where Emilia meets Puck for the first time. Perhaps read the synopsis. SinOfSlothKing said: Firstly , 20 minutes is a lot. Pls tell me how much time each has in total, because that 20 minutes can be anything from 100% more screen time to 20% more or some shit. Rounded off figures : 8200 seconds for Emilia and 9220 seconds for Rem. Plus, over the course of 25 episodes, Emilia appears in 16 episodes, Rem appears in 17 episodes. SinOfSlothKing said: Secondly it it would be a lie for me to pretend that her having more screen time did not play into me preffering her, and i want to lie to myself as little as possible. I don't like lying either otherwise I wouldn't have bothered counting it :D SinOfSlothKing said: About the Villain Turned Ally.... hmm i thought that would have been understood under "4. She is lovely and loyal....qualities to be admired." More so in the "Loyal" part of that point. She was a villain to Subaru back then exactly because of Loyalty and she became such a valuable ally for the same reason. Even after you say this, 'screen-time' becomes a more important reason than this? SinOfSlothKing said: Emilia's role? Hmm...enlighten me please. I would like to know what u mean exactly before i approach that point. Emilia's role when you take into account how she was shaping Subaru's character. Simply put, Emilia gives Subaru an ongoing purpose/goal, especially to someone who is aimless that has always shied away from actual work and effort, let alone developing people skills. Rem in comparison, provides the cheerleader/mental support for Subaru to not lose hope at any cost and keep pressing on. When Subaru enters the world, it is already in a political mess (kings family killed and whatnotd). His status as a stranger would not garner any trust. He managed to get helped by Emilia and in return he wanted to do her a favour as well. His mistake -> he treated the world as a video game initially and saw Emilia as a trophy prize. Emilia in return provides him safe haven, ensures that he is given a job, makes sure that he is tutored so that he can become independent in the new world, ensures he gets access to the best healer in the province. Earning something by working hard for it is something Subaru had not learnt (as he claims in the anime) and he admitted to enjoying the process. When Subaru acts happy, angry, sad, crazed during his time in the mansion (by virtue of his resets), only Emilia came to his defense while others were busy assassinating/spying/accusing him. It is no big surprise that her preferential treatment towards him, unfortunately, made Subaru put Emilia on a pedestal. "If I do her good, I hope she will do me". This is all despite Emilia knowing Subaru is hiding something serious but he is unable to let it out. Each time she tried conversing with Subaru to tell it all, the plot device of Satella interferes. Also, why does Emilia favour Subaru? You know this too. It goes back to episode 1, when a stranger treated her like a normal person upon hearing the name' Satella'. If her elf-kin are treated with contempt for ages (which we see later), he was the first person to stand up for her. As a result, she becomes fond of Subaru. There's plenty of relationship dynamics going on. Season 2 will develop characters furthermore, as Subaru learns to see that Emilia is not some goddess but as another person with her own insecurities/challenges. Ofcourse, this is an art medium, so any understanding of characters is fair game. However, I choose to stick with the understanding that makes sense given what actions were shown/written. SinOfSlothKing said: When i said she acts her age i meant it in comparison to emilia who is rather Naive...that was all. When i said reasonable i meant reasonable to attain, because helping someone has little requirements while becoming ruller has far more. I don't understand why Emilia would be naive (if by naive you mean stupid). Childish might be a better word. She likes to see the good in everyone despite their background. But yes, I will agree with you that Rem's goals in that light are a lot more simpler to achieve than Emilia's goals. SinOfSlothKing said: About Rem being obsessive.... u know it comes off more as Heroic Selflessness right? Especialy when tied in with all that Loyalty. But u are right she is obsessive, hope she works it out in the future. Yup, I do not see how different Subaru is from that. I believed the 2nd half of the anime did a pretty good job cementing his Heroism. Yet again, I am calling it on whatever was shown -> obsessive (both for Subaru and Rem). And yes, I too hope that things work out for her in the future. Rem was a character I liked quite a bit until I dived further ahead and many aspects of her character just annoyed me (almost as if her character is not supposed to grow from her faults). SinOfSlothKing said: "3] Puck's existence is revealed to all of the people in the court, cementing that Emilia is not one to mess with because she has one of the Big Spirits siding with her, as part of her counsel as well as military might. The Big Spirits are revered by the common folk and nobody would risk angering them. Roswaald accomplishes this by purposefully agitating an already frustrated Subaru, which leads to a huge commotion to the point of a fight breaking out between parties. This prompts Puck to reveal himself and everyone backs off. This entire scene in the anime, Roswaald...just 'smiles'. lol. But I guess it was enough of a hint for me to piece together much of point 2], before I dived into the novels." Even if that was done in the anime..still too little too late for me. Not to mention that my problem is how his entire plan is around Emilia yet he dose not show the proper commitment to protect her...as for why he wants to kill the dragon.....idk it probably killed his wife ...maybe(i know he looks gay as fuck but its anime so...its possible) Like I said, we have incomplete knowledge on the story. Anyway, Season 2 shall probably answer that depending on how and what contents they animate. The reason being that you are asking for details from later stuff in the story. The purpose of season 1 was to craft Subaru as the first main character. Season 2 will craft Emilia as the secondary main character. It will also divulge more details on what actually transpired in Season 1 (aside from raising several more questions that even novel readers do not have an answer to, lol). The story is also only halfway done. SinOfSlothKing said: Also i am not questioning if they CAN win it, they have the Immortal God Subaru on their side, ofc they can win. My problem is that from the perspective of someone who just watched season 1, they don't seem to try at all and just w8 for the victory to fall in their lap because of Immortal God Subaru himself. I don't like when victories are just handed out , like for example have u heard of Game Of Thrones? If u have not ,then good for u , u made a far better choice than me...anyway there is this battle in season 6 where its 1 army against another one and the commander of the evil army makes the other comander enraged which causes him to fall straight into the evil comander's plan, however the good guy still wins because a random army for riders apears to wipe out the bad guys..... it was anti-climactic and it just handed the victory to the good guy... it was SHIIIIIIT. Not sure why you refer to Subaru as immortal god. Perhaps immortal to an outside observer like us viewers/readers. In the story, he dies and returns to a previous save state of the world. If he was immortal, he wouldn't drop dead and the world would have continued with all changes being permanent. I do get the underlying idea behind your argument though, that 'none of the characters need to do anything while Subaru just figures out the correct set of options for them'. I have also seen game of thrones. Rest assured, comparing Re:zero with GoT won't make much sense. The entire anime is about struggling to get a desirable outcome in the most literal as well as ironic sense (seeing how the world is designed to progress in a video game like manner). Not everybody gets handed easy victories. The wins come with heavy losses at times. You'll figure this out on your own as the story continues. P.S: I have not bothered analyzing GoT as I was not a fan. |
KreatorXApr 25, 2020 1:03 AM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
SinOfSlothKing said: About him reacting to death.... eh we could argue forever if he acts as he should around death, but lets drop this point and just accept that u were satisfied with the ways the author chose to show his fear of death while it was not enough to convince me. Yup SinOfSlothKing said: About Rem: I said the thing about rem having more screen-time to seem more objective in that matter, since as u yourself have shown ,she indeed has the most amount of time (also it would have been a bad move to just start and list all of the things she did, because that would legit make me seem like fanboy who wrote this thread to swoon over Rem, so i tryed to keep it low with the praise of her) . I also tryed to be as brief as possilble. In the end, screen-time is only good if its used in a good way, and the problem with Emilia's time in season 1 is that its mostly used to prove she is kind, which we allready know from the first episode, with how she helped this random fuck known as Subaru for no reason. This argument was all over the place. Nevertheless, my numbers were to clarify your point of whether the screen time was 100% more or 20% more. Keeping in mind the objectivity of course. I read the novels as a fan, so I do know what each character did and what things were even skipped. I will however agree that Emilia isn't a focus character because her role is not important just yet. Her status as a main character is only because the story first presents Subaru with all his pros and cons, and only after that we get to see Emilia's pros and cons. Not both of them simultaneously from the start. If Emilia's role was super prevalent in the 1st season then it would mean completely reworking the later volumes of the novels and Rem would just not have any place to serve her purpose. Regardless, I take it that you haven't gone through the novels, so probably this might not be making any sense to you. All of this however doesn't equate to Emilia's character being as good as 'nothing' in Season 1, and I assume that is what you have been claiming. If not then ignore what I just said, completely. SinOfSlothKing said: The rest of the time she is on screen is mostly used to prove the same thing that was alllredy proven in episode one or otherwise just talking or actions that can't impress or change opinions on her character.....the best thing she did was reject Subaru in episode 13 for his retardation, and even then....idk it was a normal reaction and it did more good for Subaru's character, not hers. Well, I don't know how you choose to interpret the characters. If anything, that rejection served to solidify the fact that she can proceed to do her own things without needing the support of Subaru, whom she was pretty much defending at all instances in the story before that. In short, she is capable of self respect and can carry on without him if he gets in her way. There are people who admire characters with self respect, myself included. Anecdotally, I rarely find female characters in anime who stand up for themselves despite all odds. Half of the time they will be weak in their knees or super affectionate for the dude. Thankfully, episode 13 served as a nice contrast to her character in episode 8, as it improved her character in my eyes nonetheless (Even if the end goal of episode 8 was for Emilia to convince Rem that Subaru should not be her target as he is a good person.) SinOfSlothKing said: Yup, and that is why I had earlier said not to cherry pick Rem's role and dive into who wins better. If you prefer Rem, that's perfectly fine man, nobody here is commenting on your taste. The author writes a lot of characters for everybody to interpret and enjoy. If for example Episode 13 wasn't doing it for you, then it's just how you choose to see the characters. Who beat which character and how, that wasn't even a point I bothered contesting in the first place. I only replied to your comment about 'enlighten me about Emilia's role'.So in a way Rem beats Emilia both in quality and in quantity. In quantity because her time is used to show her do far more, plus she literaly has more time and in quality because the one moment that serves a similar function in both of these character's cases of changing Subaru (ep 13 for Emilya and 18 for Rem) works for Rem but not so much for Emilia. About Emilia's role.... Rem's role allowed her to do more stuff and i like it when characters do stuff rather than anything else. I just value her role more than Emilia's i guess, nothing wrong with that. In the end it just boiled down to preference, as you yourself pointed out. It never needed any objective comparison of numbers in the first place. Why? Some like characters who possess self respect, some like characters who are loyal to the point of having no self respect. If you disagree with this statement, I highly encourage you to dive into the source material and come to your own conclusions. The only thing undeniable is how the characters are written and their role in the story. Maybe you might actually find that there are characters who are far more interesting than Emilia, Rem or both combined. SinOfSlothKing said: Small correction, he would not get anything from Roswal. He is only but a suspicious guest in his eyes. If Subaru had gained all of it from Roswaal, it makes no sense for Roswaal to send both Rem and Ram to assassinate him (the episode where he is ambushed by the two sisters in the forest).Also other than emotional support and a purpose she offered him nothing, since he gained those from Roswal by saving her. All the other things are under behest of Emilia, i.e. Subaru gained those from helping her. SinOfSlothKing said: While what i am about to point out has nothing to do with what we were talking about, i will still point out that the only person to actually save Subaru was Rem in ep 15.(he was chained , she broke the chains. Might have not saved his life , but due to his power, it was far more valuable to set him free so he can die.) He isn't saved in any manner because he would die anyhow as a result of Puck's contract and/or starvation. Then, he would just resurrect back to the apple seller. His power will work without Rem, as it always has. SinOfSlothKing said: Yeah man, I like things to be neat and structural as they help in having a healthy discussion.Other than that i like how u use the Quote function on this site. Its annoying how many people quote the quote of the quote of the quote of the...... before the actual response as if that whole quote of the quote shit was needed to give the answer. I only use quote the first time i respond, other than that i delete most of the content but leave the quote so the people i respond to know i answered. |
KreatorXApr 26, 2020 1:22 PM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
SinOfSlothKing said: KreatorX said: He isn't saved in any manner because he would die anyhow as a result of Puck's contract and/or starvation. Then, he would just resurrect back to the apple seller. His power will work without Rem, as it always has. Hmm so from this comment i get that it was revealed how his power works? How the save points work? Because if he dies by being frozen by puck...fine i get it, however starvation....that can take a while, so(a human can supposedly survive without food for 3 weeks...).....if he dies from starvation ,would the save point not change at some point to being back at the cave instead of the apple merchant? Like if he starves to death after 1 week i would assume his save point would change at some point right? No, that isn't how his power works exactly. I spoke under the context of where his save state was during that part of the story. Why his save progresses and how, is still a mystery to novel readers. However, only Satella controls it (as she is seemingly responsible for summoning him). Unfortunately, I feel that this will be something that will only be answered in the last arc of the story. I do hope that there will be a good reason/explanation instead of 'uhh, it just works', lol. SinOfSlothKing said: No i am not a novel reader, i only ever read 1 Light Novel,"Rokka No Yuusha" and that's because i like the protagonist very much, since he is an ultra capable "Jack of all trades". Sounds interesting, I shall check it out when I have time. |
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
Jaesan said: KreatorX said: Why his save progresses and how, is still a mystery to novel readers. However, only Satella controls it (as she is seemingly responsible for summoning him). Unfortunately, I feel that this will be something that will only be answered in the last arc of the story. I do hope that there will be a good reason/explanation instead of 'uhh, it just works', lol.. It wasn't literally spelled out or spoonfed, but Arc 4 gives a pretty good idea of how his save points are decided tbh. Yeah, I was just running with the theme having of concrete explanations/details in my discussion without being spoiler-ish. |
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
rakeshpavan333 said: "Similar thing happened just before the Dog incident also, around episode 9, Roswaal mentions that something urgent / important had come up before he flew away. " I picked up on that on the rewatch ,however Roswal is supposedly the best mage in the country. Dose he really not have some Spells to protect Emilia with? Dose he really not have the money to hire some bodyguards? I am not asking for much, just some signs they try to survive or live. Good point. You are completely right here. Emilia was attacked in the Capital in the 1st arc (so Roswaal didn't arrange any bodyguards to protect her). The Mansion was not guarded despite the fact that he should have anticipated Witch Cult's move after Emilia's participation in the Royal selection was made public. Was someone preventing him from doing anything? or did he just assume that somehow everything will work out fine (which is bad and way too careless of him) ? or is there something else going on in the background? I don't want to spoil anything, but there is a good reason. Meanwhile, you can theory-craft on what might Roswaal's circumstance be. "Emilia is working very hard, she is getting acquainted with people and stuff " As i said before, i will w8 for season 2 to fill in some gaps, but it better be worth it cus otherwise what Emilia did was offscreen and irelevant in season 1. The main problem is that Re:Zero is a big story (the LN and WN are only around 50-60% complete right now), and the entire season 1 just touches upon around 15%-20% of the entire story (up to episode 18 is just the prologue). Season 2 will cover more 15-20% probably. To get the entire picture you'll have to wait until all the story elements are revealed. I don't know if it will satisfy you, but at least the circumstances around Emilia's personality (her flaws, the reasons for her flaws, her true goals, etc) and what's going on with Roswaal will be touched upon in Season 2. Some things will definitely become clear. But many other questions and mysteries will open up (which will hopefully get answered in future). But according to me, so far all (or most) of the visible "flaws" in story, characters and plot are intentional (either foreshadowing or done on purpose, to be explained in future). The problem with half of the discussions on the forum (but not restricted to) is that an incomplete series is treated as a complete series instead. Ergo, all necessary questions need to have been answered which effectively eliminates any need for speculation and/or picking up the source material itself (which is nearly every anime adaptation's primary goal). While the decision to pick up the source material is entirely up to the individual, the number of questions being raised is pretty indicative of the fact that they should probably give the source material a read because the anime has achieved its main goal. If the lack of decision is due to Subaru's intended immaturity and his slow/long-termed character growth, as opposed to the ubiquitous teenager-behaving-like-adults-from-the-start, then it's time to pick up some other show and drop Re:zero for good. Otherwise it will just ruin all expectations to the point that anything being released in the future will be seen as bullshit. |
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
SinOfSlothKing said: Spoil Away, cus i am rly curious if its plain bullshit at this point. If the resets are there to guarantee victory ,that's bad.(originaly i thought he can get captured which in turn would make his resets into permanent torture . I rly hope the resets are not there just to guarantee he just goes down a set path or some shit.) The forums aren’t a platform to ask to be spoonfed spoilers. If you’re that curious about it, you can read the source material or wait for season 2. And no, it’s not told explicitly (as of yet anyway), so you’ll have to piece it together. SinOfSlothKing said: My first problem was that Subaru was dumb..... are u seriously gonna tell me there was no show u refused to watch because the protagonist was an idiot? Being an idiot is ok for side characters because the narative dose not follow them all the time to annoy u to no end, but not for a protagonist. I’d like to stop you right there and say that “idiot” isn’t Subaru’s character trait. He is emotionally-driven and has a hero complex, which leads to irrational decisions like the meltdown in Episode 13. He is a flawed and bad person who expected some kind of escapist fantasy out of Re:Zero. He embodies the toxic weeb who consumes isekai as a way to escape reality, and the show itself, rather than that escapist fantasy, is a wakeup call, not just to Subaru but to the isekai genre and lovers in general. I can take an annoying protagonist IF there is a very solid groundwork laid out behind the character and a roadmap for his development to follow, and if the narrative doesn’t simply ignore said flaws but instead works on them. For instance, Asta’s behavior leans more on the kind of “bad annoying protagonists”. SinOfSlothKing said: since they don't even try to survive, let alone win the throne, and give a general feeling of no fucks given and incredible incompetence.... The show underlined again and again how unpredictable the Witch Cult is, how they work from the shadows, yadda yadda. Emilia has Puck, Rem, Ram, and Roswaal – two of these people being the strongest in the kingdom in terms of magic, and strongest next to Reinhard and Marcos in terms of overall strength. She’s not the “easy bait” you portray her to be. Inb4 “but why is Roswaal not around…” Season 2. SinOfSlothKing said: "don't boil down to "Subaru dumb, Emilia bad, Rem good"." U could honestly cut it down to "Subaru Dumb" and it would be a valid reason for anyone to dislike the show or drop it outright. I should have done the same at episode one of Cowboy Beebop since i hated the protag there too, but i am far too forgiving. Dropping a show because the protagonist is annoying is indeed a very valid reason. Not every show is for everyone. If you’d simply said “don’t you guys find Subaru’s personality to be unbearable” I would agree with you for sure, and that’s a perfectly fine reason to dislike Re:Zero on its own. It’s the rest that gets iffy. (Although, I’m sort of surprised about the Bebop part, since I never considered Spike to be annoying? The likes of Subaru I can understand, but that’s surprising. To each their own I guess.) SinOfSlothKing said: I read the first review, and yeah it was pretty good. Both me and that guy had similar problem with the show, he just explained them way better. Don't want to read the second one. Have u rewatched it recently? Yes, the Director’s Cut, but also several times before that. I like going through shows that are heavily loaded with themes several times, because each time offers me a new outlook more often than not. SinOfSlothKing said: 2.About him beliveing he is a hero and stuff...... should he not change his opinion after.....idk a crazy bitch slit his guts? If u bellive its realistic for him to keep on going despite suffering such painful deaths without at least a change in opinion on what he should do....fine, but its not enough for me. It isn't a matter of whether it's "enough", Arc 1 barely established Subaru's character and you wanted him to suddenly grow out of that defining trait at the same time? Arc 1's ending along with Arc 2 were the big moments that built up Subaru's ego, since he ended up saving the day, in order to tear it down later in arc 3. Not to mention how arc 1 introduces a REAL MC-type character (Reinhard) as an early indicator to the audience that Subaru's not all he's cracked up to be. |
SinOfSlothKing said: And the biggest one is not trying to find a way to tell people about his powers.... he could have said he can see the future. He could have left some clues, or maybe write it on paper, or write different words on different pieces of paper, scramble them and then put them together as a message or try the trick Tony Stark used in the first Iron Man movie with that paper that can be seen trough where puting all the pages on top of each other can reaveal the greater design "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHCfDAEr2Hc" This trick. If such paper dose exist ofc. And before u say he had no time to think about it... was there not a 1 month time skip between ep 13 and 12? This is exactly what I had thought the first time I watched Re:zero. However, it turns out that Satella can apparently kill the intended recipient of the message if Subaru wills a strong intent to distribute information in any manner about his situation. She might as well just kill Subaru at any point of time, if he develops some method to let make his powers known. Earlier, Satella used to keep Subaru in check by trying to yank his heart. In Season 1 Episode 17, she realized Subaru won't back off from letting Emilia know about his situation any cost, so she just killed the recipient itself to scare away Subaru from trying any further. This whole shtick is pretty much the plot device Re:zero piggybacks on from time to time -> Subaru can't express to anybody about his Return-by-death but needs to figure out a way to keep surviving/progressing with this plot device. And perhaps/eventually meet Satella and try to find answers from the horse's mouth in a complete "bitch, what exactly is your problem with me?" manner. His power inevitably leads to questions such as: Why did Satella even bother calling Subaru to the world in the first place? Why does she manifest within Subaru? What does she even want from him? What does she have to gain by giving Subaru such powers? Questions and speculations galore. I speculate that this might be a big fat time loop we are seeing, and this is possibly Subaru's 2nd big chance to reach the story's ending. Also, there are others from the real world who were summoned into in Re:zero that might have other forms of powers. For example : a one-armed person (Season 1 Episode 12) who casually agrees with Subaru on the topic of Japanese kansai accents... in a fantasy world of Lugunica. You may check out the episode to form your own conclusion, it was sometime before Felt was being introduced to the Royal Court if memory serves me well. Respective manga page regarding Subaru's carriage ride in episode 12 of season 1 which supports the above bit (skipped in the anime, presumably due to the 20 minute time constraint). P.S: I have not read the latest translations or releases of the novel. If some of these question are already answered, others should feel free to correct me if they feel like it. |
KreatorXMay 15, 2020 11:20 AM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
| To OP: No surprise about the disappointment in second view, since it is right, the main characters have enormous flaws. - Emilia has traumas, comunication issues and is mentally unsecure to death. - Rem also has traumas, more yet, inferiority complex, and is obssessive. - Subaru was stupid, become obssessive, and after some traumas turn better a bit, even still being terrible about focus and with lots of moments with ZERO inteligence. The show is about this devenlopment anyway. - All other characters are basically mean people, disguising it or not. |
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