| Above average --> HxH, Trigun, Rurouni Kenshin, Soul Eater, Chainsaw Man, Altair, Promised Neverland, Haikyuu, Death Note Below average --> Others. It's pretty simple |
MitakaFamiNov 11, 2019 10:28 AM
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keragamming said: You are dismissing my opinion on AoT on the basis that I dislike mystery box as a genre when my most favorite anime (Monster) is a mystery box anime?@zal It is a mystery box series for a reason and Isayama gave hints that a lot of persons figured out, you simple weren't paying attention. And persons love snk for how well planned out the plot is and how it has a lot of foreshadowing and overall a well put together plot. Of course it has flaws Well seeing as you are not a fan of mystery box series, most of the mysteries has been answered and from now on its the characters is driving the plot. So you may like it, maybe not. Just giving you a heads up. I didn't say that AoT is poorly written because it's a mystery box, I am saying that AoT is poorly written because does the mystery box in a cheap manner. I didn't question the planning of the plot nor the presence of foreshadowing so I don't know why even bring them up. You are defending stuff I am not even criticizing right now. And I don't think the "AoT is a mystery box" is a good thing because I watched Serial Experiments Lain, Monster, Mouryou no Hako and other mystery box series (not necessarily anime) that I liked but the difference is that they were fair in setting expectations then do their thing. AoT starts as a fairly typical battle shounen but then also a mystery box but then also politics but then also racial discrimination and concentration camps but then also magic. What even is thematic coherence? It is a mystery box series for a reason Are you justifying AoT being a mystery box using the circular argument of the mystery box definition or you have an actual reason for it being a mystery box? |
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zal said: keragamming said: You are dismissing my opinion on AoT on the basis that I dislike mystery box as a genre when my most favorite anime (Monster) is a mystery box anime?@zal It is a mystery box series for a reason and Isayama gave hints that a lot of persons figured out, you simple weren't paying attention. And persons love snk for how well planned out the plot is and how it has a lot of foreshadowing and overall a well put together plot. Of course it has flaws Well seeing as you are not a fan of mystery box series, most of the mysteries has been answered and from now on its the characters is driving the plot. So you may like it, maybe not. Just giving you a heads up. I didn't say that AoT is poorly written because it's a mystery box, I am saying that AoT is poorly written because does the mystery box in a cheap manner. I didn't question the planning of the plot nor the presence of foreshadowing so I don't know why even bring them up. You are defending stuff I am not even criticizing right now. And I don't think the "AoT is a mystery box" is a good thing because I watched Serial Experiments Lain, Monster, Mouryou no Hako and other mystery box series (not necessarily anime) that I liked but the difference is that they were fair in setting expectations then do their thing. AoT starts as a fairly typical battle shounen but then also a mystery box but then also politics but then also racial discrimination and concentration camps but then also magic. What even is thematic coherence? It is a mystery box series for a reason Are you justifying AoT being a mystery box using the circular argument of the mystery box definition or you have an actual reason for it being a mystery box?"difference is that they were fair in setting expectations then do their thing." Again the hints were there from the very beginning. It is simple the point of view we were following, we had the same perspective as our main cast, for example in the past humans thought that our sun and all the other stars revolve around earth and that earth was at the center of the universe, until later they found out that is not the case, because of the telescope and advancement in technology. "Serial Experiments Lain" is not a mystery box series at all, its a series that simple put forth questions to the watchers and let them think deeply of it, it doesn't really go about in answering anything. "difference is that they were fair in setting expectations then do their thing." I will like to touch on this point here again, so you are also saying that all mystery box series should not flip the boat on its viewers and crush their expectation? So basically you are limiting what writers can do in these type of story? Nothing is wrong with monster, I enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean every mystery box should be written in the same predictable context like monster. Again, there is no problem with this if hints were there or that if you should rewatch it, you will now see it in a different light. For example, the Collosal titan appearing out of nowhere, hint of something supernatural going on, titans look like giant humans, later found out to be actual humans, Ymir finding a can of sardine, where inside the walls has nothing like that, you now know there is a world outside the walls. the first chapter or episode "to you 2000 years in the future" this is being address right now in the manga, and I'm sure if you read it right now, you will be saying it came out of nowhere. The series is consistent and it lays out the hint for readers/viewers but in a subtle way, so its not like the author didn't give any hint and just simple shut us out of the mystery just for the sake of it. "Persons have made theories 6 years ago that are turning out to be true, and they wouldn't be able to know these stuff without the hints. I will say this, to really appreciate attack on titan, you have to reread/rewatch it atleast once to really appreciate this series. "thematic coherence?" It has been coherent since chapter 1, you are the one that is speed reading it and not paying attention. |
keragammingNov 11, 2019 11:23 AM
| D.gray man, pandora hearts, one piece and hxh are some of the best writing i've seen. magi was awsome but became average towards the end. |
| @keragamming Of course it has flaws In 3 years of seeing you defending AoT I have never seen you concede a flaw in AoT and you always reverse the issue on the one complaining like you did with me "it's my fault that I don't like AoT, I am reading it wrong and I must not have paid attention. But you said AoT has flaws, what are they? |
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| In my opinion Demon Slayer is Garbage and wouldn't even make the list. |
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Ramsey01maa said: Gorochu said: thanks for proving my points about retarded opinions like yours , greed island the least interesting arc in hxh is better than Naruto _ one piece _ fmab all togetherNaah, except for Yorknew and Chimera, Naruto has more consistent good arcs. Nope, Naruto and One Piece worst arcs are still better than Hxh worst arc. The main reason why people said Hxh has good writing is because Madhouse did a wonderful job adapting it. I read HxH manga since the 2000s and anyone who read both Naruto and HxH prior 2011 anime wont says HxH has better writing. I actually enjoy the 2011 anine more than the manga. It's only when the 2011 anime come out, the new generation jump the bandwagon. Now imagine if Studio Pierrot is the one animated HxH instead of Madhouse in 2011, no one would says HxH 2011 has top tier writing. And the recent Dark Continent arc is boring. Who cares about a bunch of princes and princess,just give us Hisoka vs Phantom Troupe already. It still a good manga overall but in term of writing, it's not that good. |
Papa_ScorchNov 12, 2019 2:46 AM
| My shonen has the best writing. Sadly, it has not come out yet because I can't draw. But anyone who is willing to draw for me for a dollar an hour will have the opportunity to draw the greatest shonen of all time. |
crescensXG said: Ferien said: Oh I didn't know that. Well... still it doesn't feel like a shounen to me, despite this fact. Heh, this is sorta funny. Because Shōnen is just a magazine label (check my sig spoiler), nothing more. But would be nice to know how "it feels". I do understand what you mean, though. ;) Aware that the term shounen means just a demo and a magazine label, still... something "feels" shounen to me when: - The show isn't very kiddy neither very mature. If it falls somewhere in the middle. When it is something even a 7-8 year old person can suitably watch, understand and enjoy, without being unappealing for the adult crowds as well. - Mcs are teen boys: aged 12 to 18 or at most 20 (at least during the beginning, Dragon Ball has 20+ adult characters as mcs for ex and is one of the exceptions) - There are no morally ambiguous characters: main characters are good and the antagonists are bad. There is barely any exploration in this regard. - Characters are quite stereotypical. - The dialogues are exaggerated, unrealistic and cheesy. The overall tone of the show too. This to make the show more appealing to the younger audiences. - The plot tends to be quite simple, without much complexity, and pretty straightforward. There isn't much to "think" and themes usually have to do with never giving up, believing in yourself, getting stronger, overcoming obstacles, fighting for your dreams, fighting for good causes, for your friends and stuff. - There's usually some kind of superpower in the universe of the show or the characters are overly skilled if we are talking about a sports shounen. - There will (usually) be a lot of comedy, plenty of it dumb one, with gags, funny faces and stuff. It's not something that is going to take itself 100% seriously. - Female participation and relevance will usually be quite limited. AoT, outside the ages of the main characters, doesn't meet much of all this, hence why it's hard to me to associate it with the shounen term. |
Ferien: [...] Heh, thanks for elaborating. I already expected that kind of response, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it since it indeed applies to a lot of series which run under that label. Mostly tropey battle manga published in Shōnen magazines, though action obviously represents just a small part running under that demographic. That's why I said it also depends of the publishing magazine and mangakas when it comes to works that set themselves apart from all of the typical clichés and themes. That's just the way it is with mainstream series. If it appeals to the masses, there's not much change and, unfortunately, risk needed. -g- My main reason mentioning it was that a lot of people still believe the common fallacy that it's a genre while they only wish to say that they like series with lots of battle action including typical tropes and perhaps certain stereotypes that come with them. All too vague. Same for Seinen. The majority I know may present more mature themes in numbers, but don't handle those maturely. Out of my own experience of having read more than a handful manga: The ceiling is definitely higher, but the amount of hair-raising, dreadful writing remains unrivalled, only surpassed by Hentai and Dōjinshi. Have a good night! |
My Rereads | My Favorite Mangaka | Soylent Green Buy stuff, or buy at least your favorites if you can afford it - Don't be lame. D W-W&N 🤍 MAL is a far cry from being my main literature site, that's why I won't be doing mere single chapter updates anymore. Manga- aka Baka-Updates + 2 French ones are miles better and more thorough/complete + less restricting. The latter are perfectly suited for Manga/Light Novel/Books collectors such as myself. Less stressful/tiring this way. -g- |
| Of course One Piece should always be in the top 3. you're crazy if you say otherwise. |
zal said: @keragamming Of course it has flaws In 3 years of seeing you defending AoT I have never seen you concede a flaw in AoT and you always reverse the issue on the one complaining like you did with me "it's my fault that I don't like AoT, I am reading it wrong and I must not have paid attention. But you said AoT has flaws, what are they? It can be contrive at times and If you go in the manga discussion for that chapter, you will see my complaints. So yeah, I don't think the series is perfect. |
keragammingNov 11, 2019 6:04 PM
Ok, let's test these against some of my favourite shounens... - The Protagonist is absolutely good and only do good things Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - nope. Azumanga - sort of, but it hardly seems relevant. Death Note - nope. FMAB - yeah, maybe. Zetsubou Sensei - nope. The characters barley die, Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - yes, but there's not that much peril. Azumanga - yes, but they're only going to school, so what do you expect? Death Note - nope. FMAB - not much, I guess. Zetsubou Sensei - "status quo is king". - Everything turns out good for the protagonist, he doesn't lose something, he doesn't have to sacrifice something that would wreck havoc, Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - pretty neutral. Azumanga - how do you even judge? Death Note - nope. FMAB - not really. Zetsubou Sensei - nope. - Almost every shounen don't craft the power of the protagonist that much, like how did they get them, how does the logic play in the process getting that power, Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - what power? Azumanga - what power? Death Note - nope. FMAB - nope. Zetsubou Sensei - where did he get the power of enormous despair?! - Shounen shows often don't go in depth with the themes they're presenting, especially the grey morality, Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - nope. Azumanga - eh? Death Note - it isn't great, I guess. FMAB - nope. Zetsubou Sensei - nope. - The majority of shounen don't have tons of chapters focusing on characters's dialogues, how they intreact, their conflicts..etc Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - nope. Azumanga - nope. Death Note - yes. FMAB - nope. Zetsubou Sensei - only really has characterisation in a fairly loose sense. - Shounens actually don't present such serious issues as: fascism, dictatorship, warfare, religion, racism, discrimination, conspiracy, propaganda, twisted history, what's the truth and what's the lie? How can you define them?, What's freedom and how could you gain it?, Genocide, ethnic cleansing...etc Evangelion - nope. Haruhi - yes. Azumanga - yes. Death note - sort of. FMAB - nope. Zetsubou Sensei - nope. So what's up with the "one of the most obvious shounen ideas ever?" when AOT's ideas are ones of the most sensitive ideas any show can have?!!! It has a city surrounded by giant monsters which its protagonists fly through the air to battle. That's the idea I'm referring to. I'm not talking about any of its other ideas. One of the most obvious shounen ideas ever. Technically, AOT is published by a shounen magazine and this has nothing to do with the themes of the story, But it does have quite a lot to do with whether it's shounen. It would be better, if people talk about something they do have knowledge about. Yes. For instance, it's a good idea to know that 'shounen' is an entire demographic containing an enormous variety of different kinds of story, united only in a common primary target audience of males under the age of 18, rather than a set of a set of rigidly defined limitations. You seem to think 'shounen' is some kind of insult. It is not. |
logopolisNov 12, 2019 1:12 AM
crybabynes said: The idea of humans being inside the walls wasn't something very shounen when it first came out, it was indeed original (talking about the walls) yeah we can label the Titans as mecha, but it's original how it was structured into a plot, I remember when all people were surprised by it back in 2013. How does being original make it non shounen? A very shounen idea is one which is obviously targeted towards males under the age of 18, it doesn't matter whether there are no other shounens like it or a million. It's got big, impressive monsters and brave heroes who fight in an excessively 'cool' manner who battle them. That's the sort of thing which impresses boys, but is far less of a draw to adults or females. Conversely, you could make a comedy about a group of girls attending school, and this would not be a very shounen idea, despite being the same premise as Azumanga Daioh, because that premise also appeals to other demographics quite a bit. Lastly, no I don't think of it as an insult, why would I? Well, you just seemed to be imposing arbitrary limits on it which seemed rather uncomplimentary. OPM is in a Seinen magazine, so why its themes are targeted to teens? want to elaborate on this topic? Not sure what the acronym refers to. But being in a seinen magazine makes things seinen, they might have a premise which makes them obviously seinen, or they might have a premise which makes that far harder to predict. Azumanga Daioh, as I pointed out, is shounen, but it's not obviously shounen, you have to find out. Since shounen magazines from the first day started to publish a certain type of manga we just got used this term to define certain manga/animes, so it's the magazines's fault to begin with. Shounen magazines publish a vast array of different types of manga, because boys can actually be interested in a vast array of different types of story. It's you (and a few others) who are taking it to mean something narrow, for no obvious reason. |
| Anything but HxH as #1 is unacceptable, I don't really care about the ranking of the rest. |
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| My favorite Shonen in terms of writing and themes is Hunter x Hunter. It is at times masterful. I stopped reading Attack on Titan shortly after so I don't know what happens afterwards but I do remember thinking the chapter of the Titans origin being one of the best written chapters I'd ever read in Shonen so if there are more of those chapters it might truly be the best written Shonen. I'm still gonna harp on it for keeping That's indefensible bullshit. |
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Jyiber said: Aniik8pv2 said: Subjective views you mean. Nobody here (including me) knows anything about writing skills, it's all personal preferences. This could easily have been a simple blog post, but nah a flame war is much more fun First post on the forum and I guess I'm just feeling out what level of cancer I'm dealing with... That's the ridiculous thing of MAL; we are all here because we share the same hobby, but people treat each other like enemies. I'm always baffled how people have friends on here because it's usually only hostile. :S |
Nick-Knight said: FMA > HxH > The Rest > Dying a really painful death > Boku no Piko Academia/Black Cover AoT > FMA > The Rest > Dying a really painful death > HxH > Boku no Piko Academia/Black Cover Fixed thank me later. |
shanimebib said: 40 pages of narrative dialogues in every 50 pages is not good writing skill. Hunter x Hunter is overrated. I agree. It does have some good writing here and there, but people tend to forget the bad writing that comes in between. |
| @Gorochu So why are Heavens Arena and Greed Island bad? I don't understand how ranting about scores and bandwagoners makes your opinion more 'true'. Let alone the terrible argument ''most manga readers say so''. If anything, the old HxH anime is still beloved by many and it doesn't include the CA arc and Madhouse's production quality. |
| poop |
zal said: . AoT starts as a fairly typical battle shounen but then also a mystery box but then also politics but then also racial discrimination and concentration camps but then also magic. What even is thematic coherence? You didn't say anything about the themes. It still has the major theme of freedom, that you're special because you're born into the world. This and themes like pacifism, neverending cycle of conflict and racism. What you were mentioning is tonal shift, as a primarily mystery battle shounen to politics to Socio political war politics. The themes are still the same. |
ThatShiny_Hex said: zal said: . AoT starts as a fairly typical battle shounen but then also a mystery box but then also politics but then also racial discrimination and concentration camps but then also magic. What even is thematic coherence? You didn't say anything about the themes. It still has the major theme of freedom, that you're special because you're born into the world. This and themes like pacifism, neverending cycle of conflict and racism. What you were mentioning is tonal shift, as a primarily mystery battle shounen to politics to Socio political war politics. The themes are still the same. Not to mention he stated it started as a ''typical battle shounen'' as if that's a theme. I'm pretty sure the first season had its fair share of politics too. I mean it has been a story about war from the start, that's its main conflict throughout the whole series. All the themes mentioned here are connected to that conflict. To say it has no thematic coherence because of a tonal shift, one that was completely natural in the story's progression, idk that's just false criticism to me. |
| poop |
| My List: top tier: Medaka Box Hunter x Hunter (better than yyh) Attack on Titan (pre-basement) Jojo (part 5 > part 4 > part 2 > part 6 > part 3 > part 1) high tier: Toriko (ruined by toei) Demon Slayer Black Clover Attack on Titan (post-basement) Bleach (the best of the original big 3) The Promised Neverland (first arc) mid tier: Katekyo Hitman Reborn Akame ga Kill Naruto (part 1) Yuu Yuu Hakusho (overrated af, still good) Fire Force (underrated) Hajime no Ippo (first season only) Mob Psycho 100 (season 1/early arcs) Shokugeki no Soma (pre-azami) Dragon ball Super (future arc) Dragon ball Z (DBZ > original dragon ball) low tier: Fairy Tail Mob Psycho 100 (later arcs) Death Note (ruined by 2nd half) My Hero Academia The Promised Neverland (current) Original Dragon Ball shit tier: Shokugeki no Soma (post-azami) Dragon ball Super (Bog Arc, Frieza Arc, U6 arc, Tournament arc) Dragonball GT Dr.Stone Seven Deadly Sins Tokyo Ghoul (shonen in disguise) One Piece |
| :I |
Esquirtit said: @Gorochu So why are Heavens Arena and Greed Island bad? I don't understand how ranting about scores and bandwagoners makes your opinion more 'true'. Let alone the terrible argument ''most manga readers say so''. If anything, the old HxH anime is still beloved by many and it doesn't include the CA arc and Madhouse's production quality. No it doesn't. Prior the 2011 anime, barely anyone recognise Hxh as top tier shounen. If other studio than Madhouse animate 2011 Hxh, it just another OPM 2. |
Papa_ScorchNov 13, 2019 3:39 PM
Thread cleaned. Please refrain from baiting users (trolling), as this halts any discussion and devolves into flaming. It's also a rule violation. |
| This will certainly not age very well. |
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Deago said: What is it with you and commenting on old threads.This will certainly not age very well. |
| One thing I have to add is that Demon Slayer has the potential to be FMAB levels of good and the manga seems to be headed that way, so list adjustments are likely. |
| If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time. Watch more movies, please. Kafka, Fu Xuan, Jingliu, Topaz and Huohuo. |
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahaha |
"The Slave is the have-not, the oppressed one with nothing to spare. But because the Slave is in that despairing situation, having nothing, it can kill the Emperor !" |
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