thizlas said: I understand that your goal here is to confront the persons who use the concept of escapism to discredit fiction, because they think that fiction is by nature unimportant, but I find your stance too radical. Of course there is meaning in fiction and in the act of consuming it, but people are in no way obligated to value this meaning, it isn't inherently good. In fact, in many cases, reflecting on fiction only ends up in disenchantment, which is the exact opposite of why most people consume fiction in the first place. Denying people the freedom to consider that they watch anime for escapism is both tyrannical and disconnected from reality. I call it enjoying anime, not escapism, that is my only point. Calling it escapism is the real escapism, because one don't take the position one holds seriously, the fact that "I like anime and I live life like anyone else". Is not calling anything one really enjoys esapism kind of ridiculous, like one don't really enjoy it, one just do it to escape something. |
| Anime isnt escapism for me either. I see it as something I really enjoy, not escapism. |
 |
rubylightning said: For me, anime/manga can be a pleasurable pass-time, to escapism, to just a plain addiction haha. But I mostly see it in a positive way, because anime can produce a lot of happy vibes/feels. That is great that you find anime mostly positive, but would you call enjoying football escapist, I find the whole concept really ridiculous. |
HavenofHentai said: stop trying to be smart. its escapism, plain and simple It sounds like you are trying to be smart by calling it plain and simple, I never called it simple! |
Gan_water said: prety sure that just means that we're doomed O_O What do you mean? What is it that means that we are doomed? |
Gorochu said: Anime is just entertainment for me. Simple as that. I agree with this, just that it is not that simple of a concept that anime is a form of entertainment. My problem is with the word escapism. |
Icebear5121000 said: It really depends on what anime is to you. People have different opinions on anime itself with many people interested in different and the same genres. It is all about perception. One persons escape is another persons sanctuary. Personally anime is very special to me and is amazing in every way. All the stories you experience, all the people you meet, all the tears you shed, all the smiles you give are all relevant in making you happy. Escapism defines escaping by means of medium, so in an essence it can be. You can forget about your life and watch anime, however not everyone is the same. Anime for me is enjoyment and beauty. I watch anime, and i can apply to my personal life. It is great. It can lead you down many different paths. I will never stop watching anime, and those who do do not appreciate anime for the amazing beauty it is. Taking the time to lie down and watch one anime at a time is the real experience, not how many you can watch at a time. To conclude, anime can be viewed as escapism the same way playing video games can be perceived as escapism. For some people this is the case, for others it is for pure enjoyment. it doesn't matter what is viewed as real or not, after all the world is so extensive that one can not truly comprehend the possibilities Thankyou I agree with this, just that I don't agree with the idea of personal true, just because people think something is in a certain way does not make it true, but of cource perception is part of the truth. My point is why don't the same people call work or life escapist? Anything can function as an escape, one just have to try to escape from something, does not matter to what. |
Akhdas said: People who replace their life with their obsession says otherwise What about people that replace their obsession with "life". Scientists are obsessed with finding the truth, obsession is not negative by itself. |
Mucosa said: I don't know.I mean,we don't know why are we here and why are we born so maybe some of us were born just to watch anime.It isn't written anywhere what we are meant to do in our life and what is wrong or good for us.There isn't just one big Truth but a lot of different opinions created by our way of seeing the world.So anime can be escapism to the people who think in life there are more important things than Anime,but also it can be somenthing important and part of their life to the people who think Anime is equal or even more important than other things.For me Anime is just an hobby and it never will be something more in my life and something special to dedicate my life. You are saying quite interesting things! Can anime be ones responsibility in life? I think it can and that is part of my argument. My point against the word escapism is that it seems to hinder the persons that use it. I am also agaisnt the idea of personal truth, even if we have different opinions does not mean that there are many truths, rather all these different truths are reactions to one inconsistent fragmented truth. |
darkeventhorizon said: Life in itself is escapism. The only question is weather escapism is really bad when it doesn't matter either way and escapism atleast gives you the comfortability of being narrow. I agree with this! My argument is that if one wants to critcize escapism one should really criticize the use of the word because it is escapist to use the word escapist how it is used today. I don't understand your point about comfortabilitty of being narrow, could you say more about what you mean? |
| @Safeanew "I call it enjoying anime, not escapism, that is my only point." -> Nobody cares about how you call the fact that you are watching anime, provided that you let others do the same. "Calling it escapism is the real escapism, because one doesn't take the position one holds seriously, the fact that "I like anime and I live life like anyone else"." -> That doesn't make any sense. Saying that one watches anime to escape from routine is in no way a value judgment, it doesn't say anything about anime's intrinsic value. If I read Flaubert to have a good time after work, does it make Flaubert's work lose value ? Obviously it doesn't. "Is not calling anything one really enjoys escapism kind of ridiculous, like one don't really enjoy it, one just do it to escape something." -> Maybe it seems ridiculous to you, but for most people it's not a problem. In fact, I'm pretty sure there aren't many people who think that enjoying something and using it to escape routine are incompatible things. As I said earlier, it is fine to criticize the persons who use the concept of escapism to delegitimize anime, but let those who use the term without any ulterior motive do as they please. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 4:40 AM
thizlas said: @Safeanew "I call it enjoying anime, not escapism, that is my only point." -> Nobody cares about how you call the fact that you are watching anime, provided that you let others do the same. "Calling it escapism is the real escapism, because one doesn't take the position one holds seriously, the fact that "I like anime and I live life like anyone else"." -> That doesn't make any sense. Saying that one watches anime to escape from routine is in no way a value judgment, it doesn't say anything about anime's intrinsic value. If I read Flaubert to have a good time after work, does it make Flaubert's work lose value ? Obviously it doesn't. "Is not calling anything one really enjoys escapism kind of ridiculous, like one don't really enjoy it, one just do it to escape something." -> Maybe it seems ridiculous to you, but for most people it's not a problem. As I said earlier, it is fine to criticize the persons who use the concept of escapism to delegitimize anime, but let those who use the term without any ulterior motive do as they please. I am arguing against most people, they don't seem to be aware of the implications of calling something escapist. Do you call life, work or anything else escapist, why or why not? |
Safeanew said: I am arguing against most people, they don't seem to be aware of the implications of calling something escapist. Do you call life, work or anything else escapist, why or why not? The way I see it, you are the one who makes up implications that don't exist in the first place. The concept of escapism doesn't suggest that fiction has no bearing on reality, it simply relies on an opposition between an unpleasant part of reality one wants to avoid, and an activity one uses to do so. I don't call life escapist, if wouldn't make much sense because escapism is necessarily relative to a part of life. I think work could be considered as escapism in very particular cases, depending on what definition of escapism one chooses, but most of the time it isn't. For instance, if someone doesn't get along well with their family and sees their work as a relief from this situation, then I maybe it could be perceived as escapism, but I'm pretty sure I'm twisting the concept here. |
| Anime... This forum an argument as to whether anime is one thing or another. Like most forums this seems pointless but it is rather intriguing. Is anime escapism? Is it the opposite? Who knows its really up to personal choice. I don't really find either to be an escape as in my life both anime and this thing I call life are pretty well mixed together. So to call one escapism would be calling them both escapism. Yours Sincerely a very confusing weeb, who is going back to there mountain of anime and plushies. |
 Baa |
thizlas said: Safeanew said: I am arguing against most people, they don't seem to be aware of the implications of calling something escapist. Do you call life, work or anything else escapist, why or why not? The way I see it, you are the one who makes up implications that don't exist in the first place. The concept of escapism doesn't suggest that fiction has no bearing on reality, it simply relies on an opposition between an unpleasant part of reality one wants to avoid, and an activity one uses to do so. I don't call life escapist, if wouldn't make much sense because escapism is necessarily relative to a part of life. I think work could be considered as escapism in very particular cases, depending on what definition of escapism one chooses, but most of the time it isn't. For instance, if someone doesn't get along well with their family and sees their work as a relief from this situation, then I maybe it could be perceived as escapism, but I'm pretty sure I'm twisting the concept here. I am arguing you are not twisting the concept, it was twisted to begin with. I am focusing on the main point of the word "escape from something". Why does that something have to be "life", what is this "life" people are saying they are escaping from? Can that "life" itself be an escape from something else? I am saying that people that call fiction escapism don't think about what they are supporting by calling it that. They are supporting this idea of people being "worthless peices of trash" because they don't act like everyone else. It is a moralistic word intended to hold people in their place and not question reality, just accept reality as it is, as in conform to what everyone should believe. I am criticizing people using it for not confronting the very fact that they are taking sides against other groups of people and also themselves often. |
| @Safeanew "I am focusing on the main point of the word "escape from something". Why does that something have to be "life", what is this "life" people are saying they are escaping from? Can that "life" itself be an escape from something else?" -> It's not life as a whole people want to avoid, it's a part of life they deem unpleasant. "I am saying that people that call fiction escapism don't think about what they are supporting by calling it that. They are supporting this idea of people being "worthless pieces of trash" because they don't act like everyone else. It is a moralistic word intended to hold people in their place and not question reality, just accept reality as it is, as in conform to what everyone should believe." -> As I've said twice already, the fact that some people use this word with these blameworthy intentions doesn't make the word itself evil. It's just a word. There are also a lot of people, as you can see in this thread, who use it in a neutral or even positive sense. "I am criticizing people using it for not confronting the very fact that they are taking sides against other groups of people and also themselves often." -> Escapism is "the avoidance of unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to help relieve persistent feelings of depression or general sadness." (Wikipedia) "An habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine." (Merriam-Webster) There is nothing pejorative in the definition of the concept. Rather than trying to censor the word because some people give it a negative connotation, you should try to give it a positive connotation instead, like Tolkien famously did, or just stop using it, but I don't think it is good to tell those who give the concept a neutral or positive meaning to refrain from using it. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 5:39 AM
thizlas said: @Safeanew "I am focusing on the main point of the word "escape from something". Why does that something have to be "life", what is this "life" people are saying they are escaping from? Can that "life" itself be an escape from something else?" -> It's not life as a whole people want to avoid, it's a part of life they deem unpleasant. "I am saying that people that call fiction escapism don't think about what they are supporting by calling it that. They are supporting this idea of people being "worthless pieces of trash" because they don't act like everyone else. It is a moralistic word intended to hold people in their place and not question reality, just accept reality as it is, as in conform to what everyone should believe." -> As I've said twice already, the fact that some people use this word with these blameworthy intentions doesn't make the word itself evil. It's just a word. There are also a lot of people, as you can see in this thread, who use it in a neutral or even positive sense. "I am criticizing people using it for not confronting the very fact that they are taking sides against other groups of people and also themselves often." -> Escapism is "the avoidance of unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to help relieve persistent feelings of depression or general sadness." (Wikipedia) "An habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine." (Merriam-Webster) There is nothing pejorative in the definition of the concept. Rather than trying to censor the word because some people give it a negative connotation, you should try to give it a positive connotation instead, like Tolkien famously did, or just stop using it, but I don't think it is good to tell those who give the concept a neutral or positive meaning to refrain from using it. Their is no neutral way of using a word, why people talk the way they do is because they are in a social room that expects them to talk in that way. I agree with Tolkien only slightly, my point still stands that even he don't fully respect fiction as a medium of truth. I should say when I think people are doing something wrong, how would they othervise know it can be the wrong way of doing things? |
| @Safeanew "There is no neutral way of using a word, why people talk the way they do is because they are in a social room that expects them to talk in that way." -> I agree but that doesn't contradict my point. We just have to make it so the word gains a meliorative connotation instead of a pejorative one. History has abundantly proven how negative words can become positive with time (and the other way around too). It's in my opinion a better idea, a more moral, and a much more practical one, than trying to censor every one of those who use the term. "I agree with Tolkien only slightly, my point still stands that even he don't fully respect fiction as a medium of truth." -> True. Tolkien was a man of his time. But you can't deny than he did a lot for fiction and that he was one of the more progressive people of his social field. |
| Some of them, yes. Some of them, nop. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
NbQuil said: Of course anime is an escapism. So is everything else in life. We are all just trying to escape from the perpetual cycle of life and death haha, im so edgy... no but srs, modern objectivity is not a real thing. Just because you put two words together doesn't mean it has any meaning. I am giving something I am seeing a name because it does not yet have a name, The meaning was indirectly defined by my original post as "calling something escapist is escapist". 'Modern objectivity' is a play on another concept 'modern cynicism' used by a philosopher named Peter Sloterdijk about a similar if not the same trend in todays society. Instead of the cliché of "happy stupid people are just doing their job" it says that today "unhappy smart people are just doing their job". Why I call it 'modern objectivism' is intended to provoke the people that I claim are making the mistake I am claiming they are making. |
thizlas said: @Safeanew "There is no neutral way of using a word, why people talk the way they do is because they are in a social room that expects them to talk in that way." -> I agree but that doesn't contradict my point. We just have to make it so the word gains a meliorative connotation instead of a pejorative one. History has abundantly proven how negative words can become positive with time (and the other way around too). It's in my opinion a better idea, a more moral, and a much more practical one, than trying to censor every one of those who use the term. "I agree with Tolkien only slightly, my point still stands that even he don't fully respect fiction as a medium of truth." -> True. Tolkien was a man of his time. But you can't deny than he did a lot for fiction and that he was one of the more progressive people of his social field. I agree with this actually, but I think my thread only helps in the fight to make it a more positive term, even if I rather not use it at all because it also have false philosophical implications that I have touched upon. I of course see Tolkien as a contributer to fiction. |
| @Safeanew "I agree with this actually, but I think my thread only helps in the fight to make it a more positive term" -> I'm glad we agree on this ! "Even if I'd rather not use it at all because it also has false philosophical implications that I have touched upon." -> What are those false philosophical implications ? |
| In the immortal words of Morty, from Rick and Morty, Season 1, Episode 8: "Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody’s gonna die. Come watch TV." Life is escapism. Everything means nothing. Do whatever you want including watching anime all day. Anime like everything else, is just a means to an end. |
thizlas said: @Safeanew "I agree with this actually, but I think my thread only helps in the fight to make it a more positive term" -> I'm glad we agree on this ! "Even if I'd rather not use it at all because it also has false philosophical implications that I have touched upon." -> What are those false philosophical implications ? People seem to use it like any hobby is escapism. Escapism have escape in it so should it not be used for when one is truly trying to escape something. When one is escaping, one don't care about the thing one escapes to, one just wants to avoid the thing one is escaping from. So indirectly using the word about anime says that one don't care about anime. |
| @Safeanew "People seem to use it like any hobby is escapism." -> Isn't it true than any hobby can be used to "avoid unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life" ? Of course it's not the only reason why one can have hobbies, but I'd say that for a lot of people, hobbies do indeed fill this role, among others. "Escapism has escape in it so should it not be used for when one is truly trying to escape something." -> That's not how language works. Words' usage isn't limited by their roots, as their meanings evolve with time and depending on the context. An immense amount of words now see almost exclusively derived, metonymical or metaphorical use. "When one is escaping, one doesn't care about the thing one escapes to, one just wants to avoid the thing one is escaping from. So indirectly using the word about anime says that one don't care about anime." -> That's a pretty big logical leap, and the premise is debatable to begin with. Does the fact that the verb "to escape" focuses on the action of escaping really imply that the destination is indifferent ? I don't think so, and none of the definitions I read support your claim. In truth, it only makes sense to call "escapism" something that one does to escape from something. What's more, in my opinion, anime can very well be both escapism and something else at the same time, just like reading literature or watching a documentary can both be a way to escape a boring routine, and to learn new things. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 7:14 AM
thizlas said: @Safeanew "People seem to use it like any hobby is escapism." -> Isn't it true than any hobby can be used to "avoid unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life" ? Of course it's not the only reason why one can have hobbies, but I'd say that for a lot of people, hobbies do indeed fill this role, among others. "Escapism has escape in it so should it not be used for when one is truly trying to escape something." -> That's not how language works. Words' usage isn't limited by their roots, as their meanings evolve with time and depending on the context. An immense amount of words now see almost exclusively derived, metonymical or metaphorical use. "When one is escaping, one doesn't care about the thing one escapes to, one just wants to avoid the thing one is escaping from. So indirectly using the word about anime says that one don't care about anime." -> That's a pretty big logical leap, and the premise is debatable to begin with. Does the fact that the verb "to escape" focuses on the action of escaping really imply that the destination is indifferent ? I don't think so, and none of the definitions I read support your claim. In truth, it only makes sense to call "escapism" something that one does to escape from something. What's more, in my opinion, anime can very well be both escapism and something else at the same time, just like reading literature or watching a documentary can both be a way to escape a boring routine, and to learn new things. Is it not you that are stuck in the definitions of the word? I am trying to evolve language by pointing out the fact that to "avoid unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life" is not wide enough of a definition to truly show what escaping something means. To avoid being bored is escaping boredom but that has nothing to do with how you do it. I am arguing against the idea of a neutral language that everyone can agree on, language is political and should change depending on intention and what the effect of it is. Can the boring or painful thing one avoids be anime for example? I say it can. |
| In my opinion, escapism is not bad.. |
| All weebs creatures of the galaxy, hear this message. Those of you who listen will not be struck by western animation. You will no longer know hunger, nor pain. Your Anime have come to lead you now. Our strength shall serve as a luminous sun toward which all intelligence may blossom. And the impervious shelter beneath which you will prosper. However, for those who refuse our offer and cling to their western animation ways… For you, there will be great wrath. |
| @Safeanew "Is it not you that are stuck in the definitions of the word? I am trying to evolve language by pointing out the fact that to "avoid unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life" is not wide enough of a definition to truly show what escaping something means." -> It is incredibly ridiculous and convoluted to be opposed to the usage of a word because of a connotation that doesn't exist for anyone but you. By "trying to evolve language" to be able to justify your rejection of a term, you are essentially making up an issue. "I am arguing against the idea of a neutral language that everyone can agree on, language is political and should change depending on intention and what the effect of it is." -> That's besides the point. The fact that language evolves and is polysemic doesn't allow you to change it's meaning as you please. Can the boring or painful thing one avoids be anime for example? I say it can." -> I have said absolutely nothing that contradicts this claim, and it isn't contradicting any of my points. You haven't answered any of my points, the "false philosophical implications" you were mentioning don't seem like real philosophical issues, they don't exist for anyone but you, who gives the term "to escape" such an uncommon meaning. It is true that the word can be used for many hobbies, and it doesn't pose any problem. It is not true that the word "escapism" implies that one doesn't care about anime. Or at least you haven't proven it is. "My problem is calling it escapist without seeing that if it is still an escape it is an hindrance of "I watch anime because I like it"." -> But that's just not true though, as TheRick said, "watching anime can be both an escape and not an escape" : It can be both at the same time, there is no contradiction between it being escapism and it being a means of elevation too. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 8:04 AM
TheRick said: I haven't really organised everything neatly but here are some thoughts. Watching anime can be both an escape and not an escape not just one or the other. Anime can be artistic, thought provoking and inspire people to look at themselves and the world and exercising people's creativity, sense of wonder and imagination (even the mainstream ones many dismiss). But at the same time there's an escape or opportunity cost of not 'doing'. Really depends how one wants to perceive it. I like to perceive it as 'leisure time' and 'recharging the batteries'. Maybe your view is that there are elements in the world who want people to work nearly all the time and conform others to a certain type of social behaviour and labelling anime as escapist to justify this. Or anime is not being appreciated as an artistic medium. In both cases I'm in agreement. You sound like you got a Focault-ish way of looking at 'escapism' btw. Then there's the context of people who truly 'escape' using anime. For me isn't this like blaming the symptom rather than the cause? There are a lot of escapist routes in this world -alcohol/drugs/overwork/gambling/shopping/live action shows etc Oh great comment! You repeated my claims in a way that maybe is easier for some to understand, I thank you for reading my comments so carefully. I would agree even with saying something like "I escaped into anime, but after some time it really grew on me" because my problem is calling it escapist without seeing that if it is still an escape it is an hindrance of "I watch anime because I like it". When we are running, we are running. When we are watching anime, we are watching anime. If one does both at the same time it becomes quite messy. |
thizlas said: @Safeanew "Is it not you that are stuck in the definitions of the word? I am trying to evolve language by pointing out the fact that to "avoid unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life" is not wide enough of a definition to truly show what escaping something means." -> It is incredibly ridiculous and convoluted to be opposed to the usage of a word because of a connotation that doesn't exist for anyone but you. By "trying to evolve language" to be able to justify your rejection of a term, you are essentially making up an issue. "I am arguing against the idea of a neutral language that everyone can agree on, language is political and should change depending on intention and what the effect of it is." -> That's besides the point. The fact that language evolves and is polysemic doesn't allow you to change it's meaning as you please. Can the boring or painful thing one avoids be anime for example? I say it can." -> I have said absolutely nothing that contradicts this claim, and it isn't contradicting any of my points. You haven't answered any of my points, the "false philosophical implications" you were mentioning don't seem like real philosophical issues, they don't exist for anyone but you, who gives the term "to escape" such an uncommon meaning. It is true that the word can be used for many hobbies, and it doesn't pose any problem. It is not true that the word "escapism" implies that one doesn't care about anime. Or at least you haven't proven it is. But I believe I have proven it. You agree that the term is misused by many, that points out that either it is hard to understand or people don't agree on what it means. Who is allowed to change the meaning of words if not everyone, who have the privilege of deciding the meaning of words if not the ones that use the words and listen to them? My point is that people use the word escape in a weird way like they are "blaming the symptom rather than the cause". |
| @Safeanew "But I believe I have proven it." -> You haven't. Your argument relies on your twisting the meaning of the verb "to escape", and is therefore not valid. And even if the verb "to escape" implied that one doesn't care about the place one is escaping to (which it doesn't) it still wouldn't be a real philosophical argument, just a petty matter of semantics with no bearing on the actual usage people make of the concept of escapism. "You agree that the term is misused by many, that points out that either it is hard to understand or people don't agree on what it means." -> I've never said that. In fact, I disagree : the term isn't misused. It simply has both a positive and a negative connotation, and I think that we should strive to make the positive one prevail. But it's not misused at all. Everybody agrees on what it means, it's just that some see it as a bad thing, and some see it as a good thing. "My point is that people use the word escape in a weird way like they are "blaming the symptom rather than the cause". -> It is obvious that when one talks about escapism, one doesn't necessarily talk about its causes. But that doesn't mean that we should discard the concept. It has a meaning, it is useful. The fact that some people use the term while looking down on those who "escape" instead of questioning what made them want to escape doesn't justify throwing the concept away, it just means that we should make those people realize that escapism isn't necessarily bad, and that it is linked to other phenomena. And if what you are implying is that the word "escapism" masks the causes that bring it about and is therefore a way to deny social problems, you are wrong, as these problems are almost systematically mentioned when somebody talks about escapism. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 8:43 AM
ROCK-IT-ON said: Is it time for me to kick reality? Like, who wouldn't want life to be like in a manga or anime? Doesn't matter what medium. Sure, I'm sure we wouldn't want to end up in something dystopian and apocalyptic, but I also can't say that the world as it is is majorly improving itself as it is right now. It's not the late half of the 20th Century when we thought the next millennium would have flying cars and great technology that would not just improve our lives but the human condition throughout the world. The true reality is that the sins and wrongs of the past want plenty of the instigators to pay up, and unfortunately for those claiming they don't have any part in it, they are looking for next of kin. Shit's fucked with everyone scared shitless from the Great Recession of 2008 and how everyone is beginning to realize that the excesses of the Information Age is now rearing up its consequences. Don't get me wrong, we can't let these things go on and we have to try to attempt to fix them. At the same time, there are plenty of people who don't think there is anything wrong, those with the answers are not provided with the resources they need, and we also have people too scared to face karma and their karmic debts, including change and a need to be better. So if anything, sometimes you just need to go away from reality, because reality isn't perfect, and despite what change we are all capable of as humans, somethings require time or to just let it learn the hard way by leaving it alone to face its own consequences. Hell, sometimes we just have to be selfish in a time when current society has become so decadent and corrupt that we need to make our own world and stick it to those who cling to the affluence like how pompous overzealous worshippers cling to their gods sheepishly to protect them from everything life throws at them with instant miraculous answers. There will be times when we will have to act as our own adult, as well as to take care of ourselves and to face our own life's problems at the heart of it all. Until then, enjoy your anime and manga and enjoy your life. Fuck the haters and out with the trash. Great comment! To the point of struggle I am actually saying that being rationally egotistic is the path to true change, we should commit fully to everything we do even if people say one should act for "the common good", because the current "common good" is what is destroying things. Resistance is in going ones own path, repeating the things one thinks is great, thinking about what one truly wants. This can be really hard and everyone makes mistakes, it is only through these mistakes we see the possibilities of ones actions. There is nothing we can know before we try it, we have do it and then think about what we could do better. Hope to discuss more with you! |
thizlas said: @Safeanew "But I believe I have proven it." -> You haven't. Your argument relies on your twisting the meaning of the verb "to escape", and is therefore not valid. And even if the verb "to escape" implied that one doesn't care about the place one is escaping to (which it doesn't) it still wouldn't be a real philosophical argument, just a petty matter of semantics with no bearing on the actual usage people make of the concept of escapism. "You agree that the term is misused by many, that points out that either it is hard to understand or people don't agree on what it means." -> I've never said that. In fact, I disagree : the term isn't misused. It simply has both a positive and a negative connotation, and I think that we should strive to make the positive one prevail. But it's not misused at all. Everybody agrees on what it means, it's just that some see it as a bad thing, and some see it as a good thing. "My point is that people use the word escape in a weird way like they are "blaming the symptom rather than the cause". -> It is obvious that when one talks about escapism, one doesn't necessarily talk about its causes. But that doesn't mean that we should discard the concept. It has a meaning, it is useful. The fact that some people use the term while looking down on those who "escape" instead of questioning what made them want to escape doesn't justify throwing the concept away, it just means that we should make those people realize that escapism isn't necessarily bad, and that it is linked to other phenomena. And if what you are implying is that the word "escapism" masks the causes that bring it about and is therefore a way to deny social problems, you are wrong, as these problems are almost systematically mentioned when somebody talks about escapism. Then we disagree. Because I don't think everyone shares your definition of the word. Escapism comes from a very specific way of speaking, like news that talk about the bad sides of different mediums. Just because lexicons can be used to create the illusion of words meanings being neutral does not mean they are. You deny all my claims by saying they are not true, but you don't prove anything either by just saying that it is not true. I am not saying that the word "escapism" masks some social reality, I am saying the use of the word is a social reality imposed on people by a media narrative that don't respect the medium they are talking about one bit. |
| @Safeanew "Then we disagree. Because I don't think everyone shares your definition of the word." -> Are you talking about the definition of the verb "to escape" ? Isn't it common sense ? Of course the vast majority of people share my perception of this word... -> If you are talking about my definition of the word "escapism", then you are not being coherent in your argumentation, as you have agreed earlier that it could also have a positive connotation. The only reason you gave for why we should throw it away (which is impossible in practice) instead of trying to make its positive connotation prevail, is that there were "false philosophical implications", which only amount to your weird definition of the word "to escape" : your entire reasoning is based on this extremely weak argument, and thus doesn't work. "Escapism comes from a very specific way of speaking, like news that talk about the bad sides of different mediums. Just because lexicons can be used to create the illusion of words meanings being neutral does not mean they are. I am not saying that the word "escapism" masks some social reality, I am saying the use of the word is a social reality imposed on people by a media narrative that don't respect the medium they are talking about one bit." -> You are contradicting yourself. You agreed earlier that the word could have a positive connotation, and now you are saying that it is by essence a negative term, which in truth wouldn't even be a problem, because it is possible for words to have their connotation change. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 9:23 AM
thizlas said: @Safeanew "Then we disagree. Because I don't think everyone shares your definition of the word." -> Are you talking about the definition of the verb "to escape" ? Isn't it common sense ? Of course the vast majority of people share my perception of this word... -> If you are talking about my definition of the word "escapism", then you are not being coherent in your argumentation, as you have agreed earlier that it could also have a positive connotation. The only reason you gave for why we should throw it away (which is impossible in practice) instead of trying to make its positive connotation prevail, is that there were "false philosophical implications", which only amount to your weird definition of the word "to escape" : your entire reasoning is based on this extremely weak argument, and thus doesn't work. "Escapism comes from a very specific way of speaking, like news that talk about the bad sides of different mediums. Just because lexicons can be used to create the illusion of words meanings being neutral does not mean they are. I am not saying that the word "escapism" masks some social reality, I am saying the use of the word is a social reality imposed on people by a media narrative that don't respect the medium they are talking about one bit." -> You are contradicting yourself. You agreed earlier on the fact that the term can have a positive connotation, and now you are saying that it is by essence negative, which as I have said already, is not a problem, because it is possible for words to have their connotation change. Well the positive meaning you are talking about is pretty non existent at this time and also it is not positive enough for my claims. I don't think I even agree with escapism as being something positive, what I am saying is one should not escape from fiction or reality. I understand if one does escape but then one should focus on escaping until one has gotten away from the thing one is escaping from so one can stop and think about what one should do now. Why I did not say I was agaisnt escaping more clearly before now is because I didn't fully grasp that that was part of my point. Contradicting oneself is a part of thinking, I agree that many statements are wrong if they are understood in their poor formulations, that is why I discuss because I want to better my formulations and change my mind about things so that my opinions and claims agree with what I believe in. |
| Jesus Christ, this might be the greatest instance of the Dunning–Kruger effect I've ever seen around here. |
 |
| @Safeanew " Well the positive meaning you are talking about is pretty non existent at this time and also it is not positive enough for my claims." -> I agree that we are still far from the ideal situation, but I thought that this thread had some examples of this positive, or at least of a non-negative meaning. And to give you another example, in France we call escapism "évasion", which is basically the same thing, and it doesn't have nearly as pejorative of a connotation as it seems to have on the internet. Overall I'd say things are going in the right direction. "I don't think I even agree with escapism as being something positive, what I am saying is one should not escape from fiction or reality. I understand if one does escape but then one should focus on escaping until one has gotten away from the thing one is escaping from so one can stop and think about what one should do now." -> Well that's another matter entirely. In fact I don't think escapism should have too positive of a meaning either, I'd just prefer it to not be a negative term. "Contradicting oneself is a part of thinking, I agree that many statements are wrong if they are understood in their poor formulations, that is why I discuss because I want to better my formulations and change my mind about things so that my opinions and claims agree with what I believe in." -> It is a part of thinking, but it is not a part of making a logical demonstration XD Jokes aside, I'm glad that you are improving your understanding of the subject. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 9:59 AM
Satyr_icon said: Jesus Christ, this might be the greatest instance of the Dunning–Kruger effect I've ever seen around here. That sentence could be misunderstood. |
| This sounds like utter nonsense. It's undeniable that there are people who watch anime as a means of taking time away from the uncomfortable parts of the real world. This is, by definition, escapism. Not every anime is an escapist work, but looking at say, Sword Art Online for two seconds, one can see it was written to be an escapist work. Let's see here: 1. Protagonist is poor at socialization but still has every girl in the series want to screw him. 2. Protagonist is physically out of shape, but thanks to being in a video game, can still kick ass. 3. In fact, protagonist can kick more ass than anyone else in the series and even gets special powers no one else can have. 4. Being anti-social just makes him a cool, badass loner. Every aspect of Kirito's character is designed to let the male otaku audience live through him. It's the definition of escapism. I also could have pointed to just about every harem series under the sun. 'Guy who is completely unremarkable in every way has a dozen girls who want to bone him'? Hard to get more escapist than that. Now, not every anime is escapism (you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone call Monster, Welcome to the NHK, Watamote or say, the manga of Junji Ito 'escapist') but plenty of anime is written as escapist media, and plenty of it is consumed as such. It's also worth nothing that something can be varying degrees of escapist. A Battle Shonen like, say, Dragon Ball Z or Hunter x Hunter can have a escapist elements (sure would be cool to be a super-powered badass, right?) without making everything perfect (sure would suck to see your friends murdered by a super-powered psychopath, right?). Furthermore, just because something is escapist doesn't mean it's bad. I still find your claim that calling anime/fiction escapism is 'escapism from thinking' a bit baffling. At worst it feels like a 'No u' reaction, and at best its horribly under-explained. If you mean that people call anime escapist as a means of generalizing about the media and its fans and looking down on the anime sub-culture, then you're not entirely wrong. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Safeanew said: Satyr_icon said: Jesus Christ, this might be the greatest instance of the Dunning–Kruger effect I've ever seen around here. That sentence could be misunderstood. Nah, I'm pretty sure I was clear enough. |
|
thizlas said: @Safeanew " Well the positive meaning you are talking about is pretty non existent at this time and also it is not positive enough for my claims." -> I agree that we are still far from the ideal situation, but I thought that this thread had some examples of this positive, or at least of a non-negative meaning. And to give you another example, in France we call escapism "évasion", which is basically the same thing, and it doesn't have nearly as pejorative of a connotation as it seems to have on the internet. Overall I'd say things are going in the right direction. "I don't think I even agree with escapism as being something positive, what I am saying is one should not escape from fiction or reality. I understand if one does escape but then one should focus on escaping until one has gotten away from the thing one is escaping from so one can stop and think about what one should do now." -> Well that's another matter entirely. "Contradicting oneself is a part of thinking, I agree that many statements are wrong if they are understood in their poor formulations, that is why I discuss because I want to better my formulations and change my mind about things so that my opinions and claims agree with what I believe in." -> It is a part of thinking, but it is not a part of making a logical demonstration XD Jokes aside, I'm glad that you are improving your understanding of the subject. No my point is that don't call anime escapism if you think anime is something good. Because escapism is something bad. Escapism means I am trying to escape but failing to escape. Anime does not work as an escape, only at worst case as an distraction, but can one really enjoy a distraction? Just because some people want the word escapism to mean that one is not trying to escape, does not change the fact that the word hints at it very strongly. |
InkSpider said: This sounds like utter nonsense. It's undeniable that there are people who watch anime as a means of taking time away from the uncomfortable parts of the real world. This is, by definition, escapism. Not every anime is an escapist work, but looking at say, Sword Art Online for two seconds, one can see it was written to be an escapist work. Let's see here: 1. Protagonist is poor at socialization but still has every girl in the series want to screw him. 2. Protagonist is physically out of shape, but thanks to being in a video game, can still kick ass. 3. In fact, protagonist can kick more ass than anyone else in the series and even gets special powers no one else can have. 4. Being anti-social just makes him a cool, badass loner. Every aspect of Kirito's character is designed to let the male otaku audience live through him. It's the definition of escapism. I also could have pointed to just about every harem series under the sun. 'Guy who is completely unremarkable in every way has a dozen girls who want to bone him'? Hard to get more escapist than that. Now, not every anime is escapism (you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone call Monster, Welcome to the NHK, Watamote or say, the manga of Junji Ito 'escapist') but plenty of anime is written as escapist media, and plenty of it is consumed as such. It's also worth nothing that something can be varying degrees of escapist. A Battle Shonen like, say, Dragon Ball Z or Hunter x Hunter can have a escapist elements (sure would be cool to be a super-powered badass, right?) without making everything perfect (sure would suck to see your friends murdered by a super-powered psychopath, right?). Furthermore, just because something is escapist doesn't mean it's bad. I still find your claim that calling anime/fiction escapism is 'escapism from thinking' a bit baffling. At worst it feels like a 'No u' reaction, and at best its horribly under-explained. If you mean that people call anime escapist as a means of generalizing about the media and its fans and looking down on the anime sub-culture, then you're not entirely wrong. Well you are making interesting points! You agree that anime is not escapist. You say that particular genres/works are written to be escapist. I would agree that some series sell the idea of 'power fantasy' but that does not have to make it bad or the people enjoying it escapist. I can see that my thread can look like a 'No you' reaction, but it is really intended to inspire people to discuss more freely and accept the fact that people don't agree about subjects and that is the point of discussing, to see the wide range of opinions on a subject. I claim that most people who argued against me don't really agree with each other fully, they have many different takes on the same word. People are so focused on my post that they miss the differences in their own comments. |
| @Safeanew "No my point is that don't call anime escapism if you think anime is something good. Because escapism is something bad." -> Well, your "point" is constantly changing... Why would "escaping" necessarily be something bad ? When one escapes, it's generally a pretty good thing, isn't it ? Anime allows some people to take breaks from their stressful or depressing life, is that bad ? I understand that you'd prefer it if people used anime to reflect and make their life less stressful or depressing, but that's simply not how it works in most cases. "Escapism means I am trying to escape but failing to escape." -> Not really, it means that while you are watching anime, you escape, and that when you stop watching it, you come back. It's as simple as that. It's just not a permanent escape. "Anime does not work as an escape, only at worst case as an distraction, but can one really enjoy a distraction?" -> Of course one can really enjoy a distraction ! That's a really weird question ! "escape" and "distraction" are basically synonyms here : while you are distracting yourself from something, you are escaping from it. Who said that escapes could only be permanent ? Don't temporary escapes exist to you ? They certainly exist for most people. "Just because some people want the word escapism to mean that one is not trying to escape, does not change the fact that the word hints at it very strongly." -> Nobody wants it to mean that. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 10:20 AM
thizlas said: @Safeanew "No my point is that don't call anime escapism if you think anime is something good. Because escapism is something bad." -> Well, your "point" is constantly changing... Why would "escaping" necessarily be something bad ? When one escapes, it's generally a pretty good thing, isn't it ? Anime allows some people to take breaks from their stressful or depressing life, is that bad ? "Escapism means I am trying to escape but failing to escape." -> Not really, it means that while you are watching anime, you escape, and that when you stop watching it, you come back. It's as simple as that. It's just not a permanent escape. "Anime does not work as an escape, only at worst case as an distraction, but can one really enjoy a distraction?" -> Of course one can really enjoy a distraction ! That's a really weird question. "escape" and "distraction" are basically synonyms here : while you are distracting yourself from something, you are escaping from it. Who said that escapes could only be permanent ? Don't temporary escapes exist to you ? They certainly exist for most people. Just because some people want the word escapism to mean that one is not trying to escape, does not change the fact that the word hints at it very strongly." -> Nobody wants it to mean that. Yeah I claim there is no temporary escape, distraction I claim is the same as being confused. Distraction and escape are two very different things. Escape means you succeed in getting away from it. Distraction means losing ones focus on something. One should focus on the thing one is doing, not use it as a distraction. |
| @Safeanew "Yeah I claim there is no temporary escape, distraction I claim is the same as being confused." -> I argue that the position you are holding is disconnected from reality and has no value. What you are saying would only be relevant in a word where one would be perfectly free. As soon as what is driving someone to seek distractions isn't something they control, your position becomes absurd. In real life, people can't just fix their problems by thinking about them. Often, they have no choice but to endure them, and that's where escapism can help. "Distraction and escape are two very different things. Escape means you succeed in getting away from it. Distraction means losing ones focus on something." -> Well that's only true in your mind. In actuality, there is no reason why an escape should always be definitive. Again, that's just not how this word works. "One should focus on the thing one is doing, not use it as a distraction." -> There is no contradiction between doing something as a distraction and focusing on it. I'd even argue that if you don't focus on it, it won't really work as a distraction. |
thizlasMar 3, 2019 10:41 AM
thizlas said: @Safeanew "Yeah I claim there is no temporary escape, distraction I claim is the same as being confused." -> I argue that the position you are holding is disconnected from reality and has no value. What you are saying would only be relevant in a word where one would be perfectly free. As soon as what is driving someone to seek distractions isn't something they control, your position becomes absurd. "Distraction and escape are two very different things. Escape means you succeed in getting away from it. Distraction means losing ones focus on something." -> Well that's only true in your mind. In actuality, there is no reason why an escape should always be definitive. Again, that's just not how this word works. "One should focus on the thing one is doing, not use it as a distraction." -> There is no contradiction between doing something as a distraction and focusing on it. I'd even argue that if you don't focus on it, it won't really work as a distraction. My claims is not about the words but what is really possible in reality. If someone is doing something to distract themselves from something they are confused about what they should be doing. You talk like you decide how language functions, but that is truely not how it works. We have always the freedom of choosing what to focus on, no one can force us to distract ourselves. What I am saying is one should do what one thinks is important and that can't be a distraction, because a distraction is not important. This is a philosophical claim about what it means to focus on something. I am not playing with semantics, I am arguing what is possible. |
More topics from this board
» Is it weird to be attracted to anime characters under the age of 18? ( 1 2 )bluefin2004 - Yesterday |
61 |
by LostSpectre
»»
50 seconds ago |
|
» Would you rather watch Anime blind or deaf?Dragevard - 1 hour ago |
6 |
by WatchTillTandava
»»
4 minutes ago |
|
» Which, out of all your favorites, would you be least inclined to recommend to others? ( 1 2 )WatchTillTandava - Today |
54 |
by NubFix
»»
5 minutes ago |
|
» Criticism You Don't Understand.Alpha_1_Zero - 3 hours ago |
2 |
by Lhundrup
»»
8 minutes ago |
|
» Is anime just more honest about it's intent than western media?Spunkert - 7 hours ago |
5 |
by Rhaelynne
»»
10 minutes ago |