| People need to let others have their opinions. You can't change how someone thinks of an anime, that's ridiculous. But if it's anime that is liked because of the bad traits of the characters or something, I don't understand. |
| Numbuh 3, you've got to get off the couch, you cannot sit in that tree house, girl you like Rainbow Monkeys so grab your little shit and then swing! Hand tracks be tracking me to different doorways. In a maze, and I don't know what to do. Guaranteed though, Ima find the emeralds. |
pinkarray said: People need to let others have their opinions. You can't change how someone thinks of an anime, that's ridiculous. But if it's anime that is liked because of the bad traits of the characters or something, I don't understand. Is 'letting others have their opinions' means not talking about it, not changing ideas and examining our beliefs? Sounds like a dull world from here. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: pinkarray said: People need to let others have their opinions. You can't change how someone thinks of an anime, that's ridiculous. But if it's anime that is liked because of the bad traits of the characters or something, I don't understand. Is 'letting others have their opinions' means not talking about it, not changing ideas and examining our beliefs? Sounds like a dull world from here. No no. I mean tolerate other peoples' opinions. |
| Numbuh 3, you've got to get off the couch, you cannot sit in that tree house, girl you like Rainbow Monkeys so grab your little shit and then swing! Hand tracks be tracking me to different doorways. In a maze, and I don't know what to do. Guaranteed though, Ima find the emeralds. |
pinkarray said: TheBrainintheJar said: Is 'letting others have their opinions' means not talking about it, not changing ideas and examining our beliefs? Sounds like a dull world from here. No no. I mean tolerate other peoples' opinions. Do people actually not-tolerate someone's opinions? People seem to feel quite threatened by criticism of their own opinion, but why? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
GlennMagusHarvey said: So is your criticism against the use of these phrases or the meanings of these phrases? I can agree to the first one on the assumption that I just haven't seen enough of these discussions, but I disagree with the second one. Opinions are not all valid. A lot of people have the opinion that the earth is flat. Perspective is subjective but the facts that lie beyond the perspective are not. Art has facts too. Even if it didn't, it's still possible to be objectively wrong about an opinion. Take for example the criticism "this song feels rushed" or "the lyrics sound lazily written." Without having privileged knowledge of how the art was actually made, it's impossible for someone to *know* these things to be true. So these two example criticisms are either BS or hyperbole that wastes our time. Either way, it is possible to take an objective approach in evaluating subjective viewpoints. Tl;dr Subjectivity is the post-modernist's poor substitute for a good argument. |
| There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show. ~ blatant ad: https://myanimelist.net/blog/Crusader_8 I spend the time to write it, so please read it lol |
| I actually think people should embrace subjectivity in such mediums . If you like it, then that's it and nothing should stop you. the important thing is how you truly feel once you've finished an anime. OP is making a big thing out of discussing anime. Superficial feelings ? Anime in itself is about enjoyment, passing time, and really to relieve myself after daily work and studies. I really don't ask to gain anything profound from anime or discussing it other than relief and entertainment and pass some free time. Anything else i get is just a bonus which doesn't even come often. Of course I do appreciate those who elaborate on their opinions and the efforts they put in, but if someone wants to put his opinion out there then so be it. S/He most likely have their reasons but not everyone really wants to go in depth about an opinion among many out there or have the time to do it just to please you. If you want to know more, ask him/her. |
Shishou_23Mar 21, 2017 4:02 PM
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Crusader_8 said: GlennMagusHarvey said: So is your criticism against the use of these phrases or the meanings of these phrases? I can agree to the first one on the assumption that I just haven't seen enough of these discussions, but I disagree with the second one. Opinions are not all valid. A lot of people have the opinion that the earth is flat. Perspective is subjective but the facts that lie beyond the perspective are not. Art has facts too. Even if it didn't, it's still possible to be objectively wrong about an opinion. Take for example the criticism "this song feels rushed" or "the lyrics sound lazily written." Without having privileged knowledge of how the art was actually made, it's impossible for someone to *know* these things to be true. So these two example criticisms are either BS or hyperbole that wastes our time. Either way, it is possible to take an objective approach in evaluating subjective viewpoints. Tl;dr Subjectivity is the post-modernist's poor substitute for a good argument. But it's possible for a song to give a listener the impression that it "feels rushed" even when it wasn't. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| And unsurprisingly, feelings arent a reliable method of determing what is true |
| There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show. ~ blatant ad: https://myanimelist.net/blog/Crusader_8 I spend the time to write it, so please read it lol |
Crusader_8 said: Opinions are not all valid. A lot of people have the opinion that the earth is flat. You are kind of mistaking opinion with belief here. |
jal90 said: Crusader_8 said: Opinions are not all valid. A lot of people have the opinion that the earth is flat. You are kind of mistaking opinion with belief here. Define the difference then we'll work from there. Either way youre accepting something to be true. |
| There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show. ~ blatant ad: https://myanimelist.net/blog/Crusader_8 I spend the time to write it, so please read it lol |
Crusader_8 said: Define the difference then we'll work from there. Either way youre accepting something to be true. We are talking about judgements of value and/or feelings here, saying that the earth is flat is not a judgement of value. It is not like saying that an anime is boring or rushed which has to do with personal experience and emotions expressed through qualifiers that do not have measurable standards. |
| Ok so i'll bring my opinions here ( Well some of it will be more than opinions ). Yes, people shouldn't come and argue if they are gonna say something retarded like ''Well that's just your opinion''. Why would you bring that up ? Only stupid people ever say that. BUT opinions aren't all equal, or at least, some people hate or like anime for reasons that make their opinions worth nothing. The prime exemple of this is people hating an anime for being popular, and while this represents a low percentage of people, there are still people out there doing it. There are people that should get no respect for their opinions, and those people are the ones that put anime they haven't seen (Or haven't seen enough of it to score ) on their list and giving them 1s just to drop the score. Other than that, if you are going to argue, then give reasoning behind your opinions or else your opinion won't have as much meaning as someone else who'd give reasoning behind his or her opinion. I'll give an exemple of what i'd consider a good and a bad opinion. For that exemple i'll bring an anime that i loved : Re:Zero. So part of why i loved Re:Zero is the story, it had some really interesting aspects to it as well as some plot twists here and there. The characters were pretty good IMO, and while i didn't like Subaru all that much, he was kind of original compared to other main characters i've seen and got some development. The OPs/EDs and OST were great too. Then, there are people who like it for the ''Best gurl''. THAT is a bad opinion. (If it's your only reasoning behind it. ) I mean, sure, i LOVED Rem, but she is only a part of why i think Re:Zero is a great anime. Also, i believe there is some ''objectivity'' ( More like objective subjectivity if you understand what i mean ) to anime. I, for exemple, don't believe there is any reason anyone would score Mars of Destruction a 10/10. I don't see ANY possible reasoning for giving it a 5, let alone a 10. So yeah, that's what i think of all the subjective/objective thing. I accept criticism on my opinions and anime scoring, but i only take seriously those which deserve to be taken seriously. I am really open to opinions about how someone can think i scored a certain anime too low or high, if i also wasn't sure about my scoring of that certain anime i might rewatch it. I have lots of anime i wanna rewatch to score them more ''correctly'' with my current standards anyway. |
 Profile Picture and Avatar/Signature made by SenpieX, requested in this thread :https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1568530&show=0 |
| @jal90 Youll note i specifically called to examples the words "lazy" and "rushed" to show that not every opinion can be protected by argument from subjectivity. Also still curious on a specific definition of opinion vs specific definition of belief. Doctors issue medical opinions, and not every belief is faith based. If youre trying to say theres some difference between the two then youre off to a rough start. My issue is that someone cam be a flat earther and still defend it by calling it an opinion. Then people like some of those in this thread will rush in to defend it as if opinions are sacred and immune to criticism. Do you assert that opinions cannot be evaluated at all? Since some opinions are based on laziness and others aren't, we can examine opinions and assess truth value. If you *only* say a show is boring, and add nothing else to defend or clarify that opinion, then it's honestly not even worth considering or taking seriously. As soon as that person elaborates on why they think it's boring, we can begin examining the value of the opinion. Subjective opinions can still have objective faults despite being ultimately subjective. I dont understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Unless it's easy to grasp and people just want the privilege of throwing around opinions without the fear of criticism. *shrug* |
| There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show. ~ blatant ad: https://myanimelist.net/blog/Crusader_8 I spend the time to write it, so please read it lol |
Crusader_8 said: @jal90 Youll note i specifically called to examples the words "lazy" and "rushed" to show that not every opinion can be protected by argument from subjectivity. And why is that? I mean, is there any way to prove that something is not lazy or rushed? These are qualifiers with no clear boundaries, whatever the person understands by"lazy" or "rushed" will stand. Crusader_8 said: Also still curious on a specific definition of opinion vs specific definition of belief. Doctors issue medical opinions, and not every belief is faith based. If youre trying to say theres some difference between the two then youre off to a rough start. WOW When we talk about opinions in the context of anime, and in general perceptions of artistic value, we talk about thoughts we form through personal attachment. A medical opinion, or the "opinion" that the Earth is flat (I refuse to call it like that when it is either believing what measurable data say or not believing it), are not formed through any kind of personal attachment. Crusader_8 said: My issue is that someone cam be a flat earther and still defend it by calling it an opinion. Then people like some of those in this thread will rush in to defend it as if opinions are sacred and immune to criticism. Do you assert that opinions cannot be evaluated at all? No, I didn't say that, so don't twist my discourse because I haven't twisted yours. Opinions can and are actively evaluated not just by other people but many times by the authors themselves. Calling something an opinion is not a guarantee, saying that something is subjective doesn't prevent the creation of a debate, in fact it opens a room for debate. A flat earther can say that it is just an opinion but the shape of the Earth is measurable, objective data and values have been set for this, so agreeing or disagreeing with them is a matter of belief. Crusader_8 said: Since some opinions are based on laziness and others aren't, we can examine opinions and assess truth value. Elaborate opinions are more useful and create more points of debate, but they are not inherently truer. When I say "this show is boring" and when I say "this show is boring because..." I am stating the exact same thing, except in one I provide more context and meat for discussion. Crusader_8 said: If you *only* say a show is boring, and add nothing else to defend or clarify that opinion, then it's honestly not even worth considering or taking seriously. Agreed, but you need to take the context always into account. Crusader_8 said: As soon as that person elaborates on why they think it's boring, we can begin examining the value of the opinion. Subjective opinions can still have objective faults despite being ultimately subjective. I dont understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. What are you even answering here? I'm honestly shocked about how a discussion on terms can lead to so much invent and drama. If you are speaking in general or to whatever other people and not to me then I retract but just what the hell. I guess we don't disagree? Then again what are we even arguing at this point, I'm confused. Crusader_8 said: Unless it's easy to grasp and people just want the privilege of throwing around opinions without the fear of criticism. *shrug* Care with those ad hominems tho |
jal90Mar 22, 2017 4:35 PM
| The way I see it, I just think it's just natural that the majority of people aren't capable and/or aren't willing to put commitment into deeper and more complex ideas. On one hand, I think a high percentage of anime is relatively easy to digest, fun to watch, and doesn't possess any real rigorous intellectual challenge, which makes it easy for people who don't really want to think too hard for any number of reasons to consume on a frequent and regular basis. In addition, and I think this flows from the first point, anime just isn't taken seriously in the capacity that it probably deserves. This results in a higher percentage of people who are here in this community to just meme/defend a casual approach to anime/chill out. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I do think that it's a barrier to more fruitful discussion when it is appropriate. It also doesn't help that I think, and this is just my thought and not as verifiable as the previous points, the people who do take anime seriously are also some of the people who are the least equipped to talk about it in depth. |
TheBrainintheJar said: Do people actually not-tolerate someone's opinions? People seem to feel quite threatened by criticism of their own opinion, but why? There are some people who criticize others for having different opinions from them but yes, people would feel threatened if someone criticized them for their own opinion. And I wasn't saying they shouldn't feel threatened over criticism of their own opinions. I was saying some people criticize others' opinions. |
| Numbuh 3, you've got to get off the couch, you cannot sit in that tree house, girl you like Rainbow Monkeys so grab your little shit and then swing! Hand tracks be tracking me to different doorways. In a maze, and I don't know what to do. Guaranteed though, Ima find the emeralds. |
| The problem are people endlessly trying to convince others. It's okay to explain your opinion. But I remember in the Re:Zero forums there were a lot of fanboys back then ... I watched only until episode 8 I think. And I didn't participate in later threads to hate the anime (only checked the forums every now and then when some thread showed up on the main forums page cause of lots of activity). And I tried to explain that I didn't like it because of the annoying behavior of the male main character. (And I usually like fantasy which means I'll allow for more flaws until dropping something.) But always there were some persistent fanboys that read the novel like "he is a realistic char" and "it will get better later". Every time, every thread, every episode ... every time they quote or @ you to notify you cause they can't accept that you didn't like it and they endlessly try to win some "forum war" by convincing you to like it). Someone even PMed me cause I stopped reacting in a thread. :D I put him on ignore. Better not to let them bait you (I guess some people want to provoke on purpose to get you to overreact so you'd get banned and they can laugh at it and have fun.) |
| I'm not one of those people, but I don't think justification is needed for one's opinions – unless one is trying to persuade someone else to adopt them. The tricky thing about ratings and whatnot is that there is no universal – let alone absolute – standard of what makes a “good” or “bad” anime. So many different elements comprise any given work, from the performances to the music to the art styles to the animation to the direction itself, and it's a brute fact that people will have their own individual metrics for evaluating the aforementioned. What we *can* do, however, is make an attempt to stay on the same page when discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of a given title. That is, we can try to be as clear and precise as possible when defining our standards and explaining why something meets our standards or doesn't. Even if we use the same language, we may have different understandings of the meanings and nuances of certain words. If we're not clear about the assumptions upon which we base our assertions, we will inevitably end up talking past each other. That said, I agree that one can learn a lot from the opinions of others. I recognize the vast diversity of perspectives and I embrace it and I don't think I'd have it any other way. I tend to agree with the cliche that variety is the spice of life and think the world would be much more boring and dull if everyone shared the same sentiments on everything, especially art. |
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| Yeah I really dislike that response. It just halts discussions. Instead of just saying "yeah but it's all subjective" people should just explain themselves. When they do that maybe they bring up a point or theme I missed within a show. Then I gain a new perspective all together possibly. Not saying everyone has to do this but if you are going to put your opinion out there then it's fair game to engage in debate/discussion. |
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pinkarray said: TheBrainintheJar said: Do people actually not-tolerate someone's opinions? People seem to feel quite threatened by criticism of their own opinion, but why? There are some people who criticize others for having different opinions from them but yes, people would feel threatened if someone criticized them for their own opinion. And I wasn't saying they shouldn't feel threatened over criticism of their own opinions. I was saying some people criticize others' opinions. I don't see how you can live without criticizing another's opinions. In fact, we almost have a moral duty to criticize each other and help us improve. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
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