Umineko no Naku Koro ni Episode 20 Discussion

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Without love, it cannot be seen.

Nov 12, 2009 2:56 PM

#57

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To the discussion earlier about who is the Beatrice in disguise and wrote on Marias diary, I just remember the scene from the beginning of 2nd arc:

Rosa and Maria meets Beatrice in the garden in front of the guest house. Beatrice repairs Maria’s trampled lollipop while maria has her eyes covered, but rosa sees the whole scene.

for this there could be these possible explanations:
(please do correct me if I missed any)
-1). A human Beatrice never showed up there. The scene is complete nonesense. Rosa went out and find Maria alone in the garden. They never met Beatrice there and maria’s lollipop wasn’t repaired.
-2). There was indeed a human “Beatrice” showed up in the garden and Maria saw her. She “repaired” the lollipop for maria. And this human Beatrice is somebody in disguise by either
2a). Rosa
2b). or anyone else among the rest 16 people on the island.
-3). the magic witch Beatrice was there herself and repaired the lollipop. (We don’t consider the 3rd option here)

Bearice gave both maria and rosa an envelop each, telling maria not to open it before due time and telling rosa to read the content during diner.
If we assume “one of the 16 people” was there in disguise of Beatrice. It shouldn’t be too surprising if Maria did not recognize her/him, but that would be very weird if rosa cant see through the disguise in a full close up either, right? Imagine if it was Shanon, now that sounds really implausible for me. Unless you say Rosa and shanon (or the person there) are accomplice/partners, rosa told the person to come to garden in disguise of Beatrice. but then agian is that really needed only to convince Maria? no.

Base on what Kyrie said during diner, that she saw a guest earlier. we can almost safely (99% chance) assume a human Beatrice was there. (only if Kyrie is the culprit then we cannot trust her words there, but this isn’t taken into consideration here.)
This eliminates the 1st and 3rd options, leaving 2b) very implausible (~20-40% chance). So unless theres another option, I would choose 2a). (~70-90%)
Well, why didn’t Kyrie recognize the Beatrice as one of the 18 people? I think she didn’t really pay attention while passing by and only thought about it when Beatrice already walking up the stairs, unlike Rosa who had a full confrontation with Beatrice. And genji who was with Beatrice there is one of the accomplices.

ps: about the letter Rosa received in 2nd arc, did she read it during diner or not? At least that wasn’t shown in the anime. It would be nice if any VN reader could confirm that. :-)

Nov 12, 2009 3:03 PM

#58

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MarthX said:
Without love, it cannot be seen.

lol exactly what I wanted to post too, you beat me to it.... :-)

noteDhero said:
If Kinzo is a alive, then him or someone making decisions for/as him. If not, then the person pretending to be him. That the title "Beatrice" is given to the head of the family during the game is my basis of that.

As for Maria, I think that if we look at what she did with Sakutaro, if there is an anti-fantasy spin on it, it's basically that Kinzo loved that Maria is able to retain her childishness, belief in magic, etc. at her age. Ie. Maria made up an imaginary friend. The idea of making something out of more than nothing, but less than one (whatever) would be Kinzo's ability to have surrounded himself with strangers he can trust, and build a relationship from there (servants).

it seems you are taking the first step to see what really happens :-)
though this it isnt really about anti-fantasy either, you need to see it really both ways...
as to your assumptions I think:
It was assumed from the beginning of 2nd arc anyone who got kinzo's ring can freely use the servants, at the very least genji~

and yes, I take it granted too that its maria's own imagination, and some of anges school days too.

Nov 12, 2009 3:15 PM

#59

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People are beginning to see why VN readers are so anti-fantasy. As the series goes on, it shifts towards anti-fantasy. Learning how "magic" works and whatnot makes you realize how fake it is. Someone's imagination and able to make imaginary friends.

Go back to episode 8 where people were like, "Battler is an idiot, magic clearly exists because we see it. This isn't a mystery at all."

Now look at your stance. But back then you would have submitted which meant you lost the game. Battler was right to be stubborn and deny everything. Battler wasn't the fool, you were the fool.

Nov 12, 2009 3:15 PM

#60

OmegaDenmad

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Good episode. I can see why some people say the beginning of EP4 drags, but so far the anime has done a good job. Lol'ed at Witch Hunt.

My girlfriend loved Sakutaro.

Nov 12, 2009 3:25 PM

#61

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Extra TIPS

Nov 12, 2009 3:34 PM

#62

noteDhero

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MarthX said:
People are beginning to see why VN readers are so anti-fantasy. As the series goes on, it shifts towards anti-fantasy. Learning how "magic" works and whatnot makes you realize how fake it is. Someone's imagination and able to make imaginary friends.

Go back to episode 8 where people were like, "Battler is an idiot, magic clearly exists because we see it. This isn't a mystery at all."

Now look at your stance. But back then you would have submitted which meant you lost the game. Battler was right to be stubborn and deny everything. Battler wasn't the fool, you were the fool.

I see why people are anti-fantasy, but at the same time, it's only because the degree of magic is ludicrous. I'm sure there's going to be more substance given later on, but there is no substance in the magic at all. It's funny that people can love this show, be anti-fantasy, and overlook the fact that the magic is so damn horrible and doesn't suit it's purpose. This is a major weakness of the story.

Regardless, since I have no emotional stake in this show, I don't care to look at this as being anti-fantasy or anti-mystery. That part was ruined around the beginning of episode 2. Since the magic is so straight forward (while going almost totally unexplained), I don't see much of a need consider it besides as a metaphor.

And Battler's still an idiot, but we don't need to go through that again.

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Nov 12, 2009 3:51 PM

#63

ukonkivi

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Uryuuuuuuu~
I'm happy to finally see shota Sakuto. I was long awaiting it.

Old avatar and sig retired for now.

Nov 12, 2009 3:53 PM

#64

hirahira

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I like him better as a stuffed lion. He was way cuter. I like the way he moves

Nov 12, 2009 4:14 PM

#65

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noteDhero said:
I see why people are anti-fantasy, but at the same time, it's only because the degree of magic is ludicrous. I'm sure there's going to be more substance given later on, but there is no substance in the magic at all. It's funny that people can love this show, be anti-fantasy, and overlook the fact that the magic is so damn horrible and doesn't suit it's purpose. This is a major weakness of the story.

You may think it's horrible, but many people see it in a different light. Me personally, I think the more ridiculous the magic is, the more difficult it is to solve some of the mystery because the fantasy is trying to separate itself as much as possible from the mystery.

Nov 12, 2009 4:34 PM

#66

garfield15

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1000 years whaaaaaaaaattt?

Nov 12, 2009 5:18 PM

#67

June_1983

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All of the witches in Umineko live 1000 years. :) I don't think "time" means the same thing for them as it does for humans.

Nov 12, 2009 6:36 PM

#68

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noteDhero said:
I see why people are anti-fantasy, but at the same time, it's only because the degree of magic is ludicrous. I'm sure there's going to be more substance given later on, but there is no substance in the magic at all. It's funny that people can love this show, be anti-fantasy, and overlook the fact that the magic is so damn horrible and doesn't suit it's purpose. This is a major weakness of the story.

The fantasy things in Umineko is quite different from the usual ones.
From my own experience, I think to really accept the witch+magic stuffs you need to whole heartily deny it first, only after that you can come to accept and appreciate it. But its not like umineko is anything usual anyway, everything is quite "weird" here... Anyone can try explain things millions times to you, but unless you think about it yourself, you wont ever see it the same way as they do. "without love it cannot be seen~" and indeed, this isnt the cup of tea of any and everyone.

Plus, even with those unexplained lousy magic scenes, most anime-only viewers still seem to fell hard for it. And thats not like they really accept it, to me that seems more like ignoring it.

Nov 12, 2009 6:41 PM

#69

DeathfireD

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This was the first episode that angered me. Ange showing up in this series gave me hope that they'd cut back on the laughable attempt to bring magic to the story, but instaid they turn her into a witch and make her a gullible fool like Battler. I thought she was going to be the voice of reason for Battler but instaid she's as dumb as the rest.

I think the only real substance we got from this episode was that there's a possibility that each "game" Beo starts, only happens within the confines of the island. Anything that escapes the island from any of the games is still seen in that current time period. So if 3 arks happen and in each ark a bottle is tossed in the water then the people outside of the island will see 3 bottles all within the same time frame and not years apart.

Speaking of notes Ange talking with that guy about the hand writing of the notes in the bottles and then showing Maria's book with the signature of Beo and her master resulted in him going nuts. Could that signature that's supposedly by Beo and her master really be from Maria's own mother (the same person that wrote the notes)? Or could it be that Beo is Maria's mother :S?

Another thing that caught my eye in this episode is that Ange is apparently in two places at once. I'm not really sure why. She's on the island in 1986 (forgot the exact year) and she's off the island trying to learn more about what happened on the island. This doesn't seem like a flashback since it's not hazy like her flashback about school.

In any case I'm still disliking this series. The magic is, as noteDhero kindly noted, ludicrous.

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Nov 12, 2009 6:47 PM

#70

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DeathfireD said:
I think the only real substance we got from this episode was that there's a possibility that each "game" Beo starts, only happens within the confines of the island. Anything that escapes the island from any of the games is still seen in that current time period. So if 3 arks happen and in each ark a bottle is tossed in the water then the people outside of the island will see 3 bottles all within the same time frame and not years apart.

consider the possibility that one person intentionally wrote 2 different version and sent them in different direction. why?
exactly what is achieved already.
general public believes it is magic related~

plus other points you made show exactly the thing i wanted to explain in my post just a sec ago, but i guess you have already strayed too far away to get back into this.... :-(

vinesageNov 12, 2009 6:53 PM

Nov 12, 2009 6:57 PM

#71

wakka9ca

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MarthX said:
People are beginning to see why VN readers are so anti-fantasy. As the series goes on, it shifts towards anti-fantasy. Learning how "magic" works and whatnot makes you realize how fake it is. Someone's imagination and able to make imaginary friends.

Go back to episode 8 where people were like, "Battler is an idiot, magic clearly exists because we see it. This isn't a mystery at all."

Now look at your stance. But back then you would have submitted which meant you lost the game. Battler was right to be stubborn and deny everything. Battler wasn't the fool, you were the fool.

But then, you have to understand the principle behind multiple universe theory. There are world where magic exists and worlds where it doesn't. The ultimate goal of the game for Battler is to reduce the probability of magic existing to zero by explaining everything logical. There are no "fools" since both views are correct from their perspective. (This is even true in modern physics, i.e. special and general relativity and quantum physics)

I am taking a perfectly neutral point of view (not anti-magic nor anti-mystery) because it doesn't matter until the final outcome of the game is announced. I enjoy the series by enjoying the PROCESS of the game so I;m not taking any sides (because BOTH views exists in a state of superposition)

vinesage said:

DeathfireD said:
I think the only real substance we got from this episode was that there's a possibility that each "game" Beo starts, only happens within the confines of the island. Anything that escapes the island from any of the games is still seen in that current time period. So if 3 arks happen and in each ark a bottle is tossed in the water then the people outside of the island will see 3 bottles all within the same time frame and not years apart.

consider the possibility that one person intentionally wrote 2 different version and sent them in different direction. why?
exactly what is achieved already.
general public believes it is magic related~

OR
This can show the "Schrodinger Box" effect of Rokkenjima. AS LONG as the game is not ended, what really happened is in a state of uncertainty because NO ONE outside knows (or even better: we don't know if anyone form the outside knows) This explanation has NOTHING to do with magic.

I am viewing this series not from a fantasy or mystery view, but from a philosophical point of view.

P.S: Because I have done so much physics, I can guarantee you that weirder things happen in real life and in physics and math (imaginary power, evanescent solutions to EM equations, quantum tunneling, etc) And I was just telling someone how all our USB drives are constantly using quantum tunneling, so these are real stuff no longer pure theoretical things (then again, the nature of reality itself can be questionned)

noteDhero said:

Regardless, since I have no emotional stake in this show, I don't care to look at this as being anti-fantasy or anti-mystery. That part was ruined around the beginning of episode 2. Since the magic is so straight forward (while going almost totally unexplained), I don't see much of a need consider it besides as a metaphor.

OR

you can consider magic as a possible reality (for now) that needs to be disproved for Battler to win the game. If he gives up, magic is no longer a metaphor but something that describe the reality of that world.

Ryukishi07 is simply pointing out (in a very convoluted way) how he, as the game maker, can perfectly control the outcome of the series. We, as viewers from the outside, can either takes sides and have fun coming up with theories for one side, or , like me, simply enjoy the process (like watching ants). Honestly, I don't care who wins this game, as long as I'm entertained by the process itself. The outcome is TOTALLY meaningless to me because I'm an outsider that is not part of the game.

wakka9caNov 12, 2009 7:13 PM

bla bla bla

The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.

Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?

Nov 12, 2009 7:14 PM

#72

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wakka9ca said:
OR
This can show the "Schrodinger Box" effect of Rokkenjima. AS LONG as the game is not ended, what really happened is in a state of uncertainty because NO ONE outside knows (or even better: we don't know if anyone form the outside knows) This explanation has NOTHING to do with magic.

I am viewing this series not from a fantasy or mystery view, but from a philosophical point of view.

P.S: Because I have done so much physics, I can guarantee you that weirder things happen in real life and in physics and math (imaginary power, evanescent solutions to EM equations, quantum tunneling, etc) And I was just telling someone how all our USB drives are constantly using quantum tunneling, so these are real stuff no longer pure theoretical things (then again, the nature of reality itself can be questionned)

well, i wouldnt say the "Schrodinger Box" effect results 2 bottles of different stories, but it is the other way round. So if you really like to add complexe definitions into this, it is:
because of 2 bottles, theres the "Schrodinger Box" effect ~

if theres none bottle, there will be one truth.
if there is only one bottle, then the bottle will become the absolute truth.
when theres 2 bottles, it means anything. = absolute uncertainty

Nov 12, 2009 7:16 PM

#73

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The preview for 21 is out. (not on YouTube yet)

I was right. They aren't skipping My World. Everyone was getting their panties in a bunch for nothing.

Nov 12, 2009 7:31 PM

#74

DeathfireD

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@wakka9ca - I supposed it could be seen as one large "Schrodinger Box". There's also the possibility that Maria's mom has a split personality similar to Eva. Each writing what they saw and sending a bottle around the same time.

Going even further we could even make a guess that everyone in the family has a split personality. This would explain why the killer is so hard to find. While one person's personality wants to kill, that same person could be your best friend throughout the story. Take Eva for example. One side of her is a pacifist while the other simply wants power and the ability to kill.

We could even bring science and physics into this and say the island is within a time rip or a time cycle that continues to repeat the same year over and over again. Similar to how people think the Bermuda Triangle causes things to disappear into another dimension.

There's many possibility's but none seem reasonable enough for this story....but then again who knows.

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Nov 12, 2009 7:37 PM

#75

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DeathfireD said:
@wakka9ca - I supposed it could be seen as one large "Schrodinger Box". There's also the possibility that Maria's mom has a split personality similar to Eva. Each writing what they saw and sending a bottle around the same time.

Going even further we could even make a guess that everyone in the family has a split personality. This would explain why the killer is so hard to find. While one person's personality wants to kill, that same person could be your best friend throughout the story. Take Eva for example. One side of her is a pacifist while the other simply wants power and the ability to kill.

We could even bring science and physics into this and say the island is within a time rip or a time cycle that continues to repeat the same year over and over again. Similar to how people think the Bermuda Triangle causes things to disappear into another dimension.

There's many possibility's but none seem reasonable enough for this story....but then again who knows.

I agree with this but noteDhero gave a good analyzation earlier about the mental problems so this further proves many of the family members have mental issues in this serie but why do I think Ange has none or the less of everyone. Does anyone think that it can be cabin fever syndrome being on the island itself for too long?

In spoiler my anime list for now.

Nov 12, 2009 7:39 PM

#76

wakka9ca

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DeathfireD said:
@wakka9ca - I supposed it could be seen as one large "Schrodinger Box". There's also the possibility that Maria's mom has a split personality similar to Eva. Each writing what they saw and sending a bottle around the same time.

Going even further we could even make a guess that everyone in the family has a split personality. This would explain why the killer is so hard to find. While one person's personality wants to kill, that same person could be your best friend throughout the story. Take Eva for example. One side of her is a pacifist while the other simply wants power and the ability to kill.

We could even bring science and physics into this and say the island is within a time rip or a time cycle that continues to repeat the same year over and over again. Similar to how people think the Bermuda Triangle causes things to disappear into another dimension.

There's many possibility's but none seem reasonable enough for this story....but then again who knows.

Exactly. Your point of view is equally valid until it is disproved by new facts.

My point was that I'm not making any point or guesses on what's happening on that island, since it does not matter from an outsider point of view.

bla bla bla

The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.

Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?

Nov 12, 2009 7:44 PM

#77

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DeathfireD said:
I think the only real substance we got from this episode was that there's a possibility that each "game" Beo starts, only happens within the confines of the island. Anything that escapes the island from any of the games is still seen in that current time period. So if 3 arks happen and in each ark a bottle is tossed in the water then the people outside of the island will see 3 bottles all within the same time frame and not years apart.

Or the scenario for the murders was written before the incident actually happened, and more than one scenario was prepared.

Nov 12, 2009 7:49 PM

#78

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For those confused about the time line

Pre 1986 events. Maria's past. The anime didn't make it clear but Beatrice's game board doesn't start until Oct 3rd, 1986. So everything before that point is the same in every world.

1986. The Rokkenjima Incident and Beatrice's game board. Oct 3rd and Oct 4th. The period Battler is stuck at. Ange was 6 years old and couldn't attend the conference because she got sick the day before.

Post 1986. Ange being forced to attend Saint Lucia academy by Eva. This world is only possible where Eva survives and out of the 3 games, the third is the only one where that happens (as far as we know) Everything that happens here is post EP3.

1998. Eva has died and Ange is the new Ushiromiya heir. She goes on a journey to try and find out the truth behind the Rokkenjima murders. Again, this is all post EP3.

Nov 12, 2009 7:55 PM

#79

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MarthX said:
For those confused about the time line

Pre 1986 events. Maria's past. The anime didn't make it clear but Beatrice's game board doesn't start until Oct 3rd, 1986. So everything before that point is the same in every world.

1986. The Rokkenjima Incident and Beatrice's game board. Oct 3rd and Oct 4th. The period Battler is stuck at. Ange was 6 years old and couldn't attend the conference because she got sick the day before.

Post 1986. Ange being forced to attend Saint Lucia academy by Eva. This world is only possible where Eva survives and out of the 3 games, the third is the only one where that happens (as far as we know) Everything that happens here is post EP3.

1998. Eva has died and Ange is the new Ushiromiya heir. She goes on a journey to try and find out the truth behind the Rokkenjima murders. Again, this is all post EP3.

This looks as confusing as Higurashi can get. Hope I can get it somehow.

In spoiler my anime list for now.

Nov 12, 2009 8:05 PM

#80

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DeathfireD said:
This was the first episode that angered me. Ange showing up in this series gave me hope that they'd cut back on the laughable attempt to bring magic to the story, but instaid they turn her into a witch and make her a gullible fool like Battler. I thought she was going to be the voice of reason for Battler but instaid she's as dumb as the rest.

Why would they do that? The magic is just as important in the story as the mystery. I don't get how some of you people can put up with this when it's basically half the story. And Ange is not as dumb as you think she is, she is far more competent than Battler. She was tricked by Bernkastel but anyone would have if they were in her situation. And as far as her becoming a witch, well it's been said many times already, but "Without love, it cannot be seen." They'll expand upon this later.

Nov 12, 2009 8:10 PM

#81

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Nov 12, 2009 8:16 PM

#82

DeathfireD

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PsychFreak said:

DeathfireD said:
This was the first episode that angered me. Ange showing up in this series gave me hope that they'd cut back on the laughable attempt to bring magic to the story, but instaid they turn her into a witch and make her a gullible fool like Battler. I thought she was going to be the voice of reason for Battler but instaid she's as dumb as the rest.

Why would they do that? The magic is just as important in the story as the mystery. I don't get how some of you people can put up with this when it's basically half the story. And Ange is not as dumb as you think she is, she is far more competent than Battler. She was tricked by Bernkastel but anyone would have if they were in her situation. And as far as her becoming a witch, well it's been said many times already, but "Without love, it cannot be seen." They'll expand upon this later.

The problem is the majority of this series has been magic. It would have been logical to try and keep things even by making her anti-magic but noooo they make her out to be a witch. Battler seems like the only sane person in their family.

Thanks for the chart MarthX. One thing to note though, the bottles from ark 1 and presumably ark 2 show up in Ange's time line at the same time.

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Nov 12, 2009 8:23 PM

#83

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If you are anti-fantasy, there's no way the bottles from arc 1 and 2 can appear in the end of arc 3. The only answer is those scenarios are written beforehand in all arcs.

And even a witch can be anti-fantasy. Such as Bern.

Nov 12, 2009 8:25 PM

#84

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DeathfireD said:
The problem is the majority of this series has been magic. It would have been logical to try and keep things even by making her anti-magic but noooo they make her out to be a witch. Battler seems like the only sane person in their family

She is anti-magic, she is still going to help Battler in solving the murders. It's not like she's gonna switch over to the witch's side just because she's a witch herself. Her main goal is to break her brother out of the endless cycle that Beatrice puts him in. Her goal is to get her family to escape from the never ending October 3rd-5th of Rokkenjima. So just because she's a witch doesn't mean she's all of a sudden anti-mystery.

Nov 12, 2009 8:27 PM

#85

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Learning how Beatrice's magic works is the best way to go against it.

Nov 12, 2009 8:58 PM

#86

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Episode 21 preview.

Nov 12, 2009 9:11 PM

#87

June_1983

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MarthX said:
Learning how Beatrice's magic works is the best way to go against it.

Exactly. The most important element of solving the mystery of Umineko -- even more important than solving the epitaph -- is understanding what magic is and how it works. Umineko is not JUST a closed-door murder mystery, and it's not just a fantasy, either. It's both of these things, and something else entirely. It explores the inner life of the mind and the imagination, and I think that's where the true answers to the story lie.

Nov 12, 2009 9:14 PM

#88

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PsychFreak said:
Episode 21 preview.

Also,

Nov 12, 2009 9:50 PM

#89

kfdm

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Hahaha, at the stakes around 0:50

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Nov 13, 2009 12:08 AM

#90

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MarthX said:

Thank you a lot this is much more easier to understand! :D
So game 4 is in progress as of now. Whoever wins this one will be a final one or there will be infinite numbers of them? I wonder about that.

In spoiler my anime list for now.

Nov 13, 2009 1:51 AM

#91

DarkIceXIII

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I found this episode quite entertaining, despite not much happening.
Being an anime-only watcher, at the moment, I can't nitpick at what and what wasn't included in the anime from the VN, so it doesn't matter to me if 'this' or 'that' was left out right now.

I just thought it was some nice background on Ange, and the whole Maria/Sakutoro thing was pretty sweet.

Nov 13, 2009 5:08 AM

#92

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I just though of something, why does Maria not make something to stop Beatrice even in a Alliance. Like, seal herself with Beatrice in a different world while making something to put everyone back in what can be called original world? Withc hunt....anyone think that movie Blair Witch project?

In spoiler my anime list for now.

Nov 13, 2009 5:24 AM

#93

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"Witch Hunt" is the name of the fan group that translates the game to English.
Then Ryuukishi decided to use that name in the game.

Nov 13, 2009 5:26 AM

#94

orangehouse

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Feels like this really is an unfair game to them

Nov 13, 2009 5:35 AM

#95

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francismeunier said:
I just though of something, why does Maria not make something to stop Beatrice even in a Alliance. Like, seal herself with Beatrice in a different world while making something to put everyone back in what can be called original world? Withc hunt....anyone think that movie Blair Witch project?

Why would Maria want to stop Beatrice? Beatrice and her are in alliance and best friends.

Nov 13, 2009 5:41 AM

#96

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MarthX said:

francismeunier said:
I just though of something, why does Maria not make something to stop Beatrice even in a Alliance. Like, seal herself with Beatrice in a different world while making something to put everyone back in what can be called original world? Withc hunt....anyone think that movie Blair Witch project?

Why would Maria want to stop Beatrice? Beatrice and her are in alliance and best friends.

Why not to save her family? I know the Alliance but Maria does not see Beatrice a little evil at all?

In spoiler my anime list for now.

Nov 13, 2009 6:03 AM

#97

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Jul 2009

101

Because she believes that in the end everyone will be revived and reach the Golden Land.

Nov 13, 2009 7:01 AM

#98