| Medaka box without the comedy and a bit more serious. Also taking away some of the stupid arcs after chapter 100. The madoka haters are pretty annoying though. I love how they oversimplify a certain aspect of it and refuse to acknowledge anything else but the deaths. |
 [/url]Seven-Coloured Puppeteer. |
| Madoka is more like Bokurano or Zambot 3, certainly nothing like Evangelion. I suppose you could watch Speed Grapher or something if you want a more serious battle show format, but I'm not going to vouch for its quality or edginess. |
Saffron_entity said: Medaka box without the comedy and a bit more serious. Also taking away some of the stupid arcs after chapter 100. The madoka haters are pretty annoying though. I love how they oversimplify a certain aspect of it and refuse to acknowledge anything else but It's a pretty common thing to do, although I haven't actually seen anyone on this forum try to claim that |
daedroth4Apr 29, 2014 5:27 PM
Red_Keys said: Why would the main character dying do anything for you? The main character died!! So surprising!! But oh shit, now there's no story because the fucking main character is dead. Oh. ... Thanks for watching folks! The end! I can point out a series that an MC died and the whole show ranked up after that. MCs dying doesn't always means the end of the show. In the case of the anime I have pointed out, HIS death served as a catalyst for the changes of those around him. In my opinion, after HE died, the show ranked itself up. |
| This is a signature. |
ran614 said: Red_Keys said: Why would the main character dying do anything for you? The main character died!! So surprising!! But oh shit, now there's no story because the fucking main character is dead. Oh. ... Thanks for watching folks! The end! I can point out a series that an MC died and the whole show ranked up after that. MCs dying doesn't always means the end of the show. In the case of the anime I have pointed out, HIS death served as a catalyst for the changes of those around him. In my opinion, after HE died, the show ranked itself up. But in terms of main main characters, |
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kami_desu said: Mod Edit: Modified quote tower; please spoiler or remove old quotes. |
sarroushMay 9, 2014 9:11 AM
| This is a signature. |
| MC trains and trains, but doesn't get one bit stronger, cause he just has 0 talent. And then his rival (which is a girl) just majorly owns him, thus the MC gets depressed and tries to kill himself, which fails because he's actually immortal - yeah that's why he's the MC. And from then on the anime goes on portraying how inborn talent actually determines your whole success, the MC's depression and how he deals with being an immortal, but ultimately useless fighter. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
| It would only last an episode because the first one to get distracted powering up or monologging would be taken out by their opponent. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
| Have their naive Ideals crushed through the death of their friends at the hands of other friends. And then the MC would go on a killing spree that encompassed the rest of their friends and loved ones because his angst makes him want to kill everyone in the world. |
| [size=200]MAL AVATAR SYSTEM BLOWS |
| Yeah, i think the closest thing we have to that is Hunter x Hunter, maybe. Medaka Box feels more like half satire/half reconstruction to me, although i think it could also counts. |
| The only True Ending is the Harem Ending. |
| There's no such thing as "a deconstruction." The whole idea of deconstruction (as questionable as it is) is that every text is always already deconstructing itself. The "deconstruction" is already present in any shounen anime, then. In other words, the shounen anime already undermines its own ostensible themes even as it tries to assert them. Actually, Naruto is a pretty good example of this. It shoots the whole "try hard and achieve your dreams" thing right in the foot by pretty much giving Naruto all of his truly astounding powers as a matter of inheritance. |
| To clarify deconstruction: It's correct that deconstruction is inherent in every text, which is to say everything in theory contains its own contradiction. But a deconstruction itself is an analysis where you point out exactly how this contradiction is happening. An example would be to say there wouldn't be any good if there wasn't any evil, since there would be nothing to differentiate good. In other words, being good is actually evil because a good person fights something that's necessary for there to be good. Deconstruction as a genre then, is when a show, or book, or something of any storytelling medium points out the contradictions that are to be found in whatever type of stories it is combined with. The classic example is probably Alan Moore's Watchmen where, among many other things, the superheroes suffer the typical consequences of being famous, such as having drug problems, and thus are revealed to not be so super. Something closer to our own shores is obviously Neon Genesis Evangelion where the main characters suffer serious psychological problems from having the entire human species on their teenage shoulders, a predicament which anime characters until then had handled remarkably well. What's a little ironic though, is that that deconstruction has now almost become a staple in anime ... For example, despite getting into so many fights, shonen main characters are strangely cheerful. Eren in Attack on Titan, on the other hand, fittingly has an extremely low, and violent temper. Going on, the show isn't afraid to maim, and kill its characters in dangerous situations while shonen characters typically tend to get away from the most threatening ones with little consequences. Then there is a wonderful part in the second-to-last arc of what's been animated so far where Eren is asked to believe in his friends, and agrees to, with all the inspiring music that usually comes with the whole "power of friendship" thing, whereupon his friends are all violently killed, and he despairs as he realizes he made the wrong choice. In another popular, recent show, though not shonen, Madoka, the magical girls are made to pay the gruesome consequences of dealing with supernatural forces, and in Steins;Gate, though Seinen, time-travel turns out to be a technical hell of details. Perhaps then, we've reached the point where a true deconstruction of anime would be playing it perfectly straight, and what better genre to represent it all than the most popular one? After all, at the end of the day an anime is just an anime, isn't it very strange to take all the concepts so literally in the first place? |
| Very well written post bellellis. It made me realise I had the wrong impression of what the term "deconstruction" entailed. Still, I don't agree with Steins Gate doing anything different to the time travel genre. What I would expect from a deconstruction of this genre is something akin to the main character realising time travel is dangerous and deciding not to mess with it. |
| 5 main aspects I base my ratings on: 1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it? 2. Is it better than Breaking Bad? 3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it? 4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL? 5. Is it actually good? Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant... |
| We already had "Deconstructions" of shonen genre. Multiple times. The most famous example being FMA:B - it takes shounen genre premise, however averts the usual tropes via realistic and unorthodox methods - there's no such thing as "power levels" and most of action involves actual tactics and strategy used. It eliminates the notion of prevalent sexism in shonen genre by presenting every female character with empowering and important role. Then there's a fact that main character is NOT the strongest and the "final solution" to everything was Other examples I remember could have been Claymore(up until certain point because the latest story arc has been generic bullshit) and D.Gray-Man(which still retains its shonen tropes, but gets sufficiently weird enough to break out of them, to the point that it COULD sufficiently be called evangelion of shonen genre, not to mention that it defies the "black versus white" ideas prevalent in the genre as Manga-wise we had MORE subversions than usual, with stuff like Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle(and what a majestic subversion that was, although it never got done justice in anime-format) geralt said: What I would expect from a deconstruction of this genre is something akin to the main character realising time travel is dangerous and deciding not to mess with it. Which was the very point of Steins;Gate? The show built up tension and lore and then |
AhenshihaelMay 4, 2014 11:02 AM
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| Death Note was a good example of Shounen deconstruction -Battle of wits instead of physical conflicts -sociopathic protagonist instead of altruistic protagonist -hatred & isolation instead of love & friendship -non-confrontational protagonist instead confrontational -dark & serious instead fun & lighthearted -law abiding antagonist instead of criminal antagonist -intelligent protagonist instead of idiotic protagonist and so on & so forth, outside of Death Note I can't think of too many other well written examples of actual shounens that deconstruct the genre without parodying it |
| Deaths during a battle would not be revolutionary at all. However, a death during an unconventional training sequence would be interesting. Not that that alone would make it a deconstruction. |
Mars_ said: Death Note was a good example of Shounen deconstruction -Battle of wits instead of physical conflicts -sociopathic protagonist instead of altruistic protagonist -hatred & isolation instead of love & friendship -non-confrontational protagonist instead confrontational -dark & serious instead fun & lighthearted -law abiding antagonist instead of criminal antagonist -intelligent protagonist instead of idiotic protagonist and so on & so forth, outside of Death Note I can't think of too many other well written examples of actual shounens that deconstruct the genre without parodying it Death Note is not shonen. That's like calling Gantz shonen. |
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Fai said: Mars_ said: Death Note was a good example of Shounen deconstruction -Battle of wits instead of physical conflicts -sociopathic protagonist instead of altruistic protagonist -hatred & isolation instead of love & friendship -non-confrontational protagonist instead confrontational -dark & serious instead fun & lighthearted -law abiding antagonist instead of criminal antagonist -intelligent protagonist instead of idiotic protagonist and so on & so forth, outside of Death Note I can't think of too many other well written examples of actual shounens that deconstruct the genre without parodying it Death Note is not shonen. That's like calling Gantz shonen. .......... Last I checked, WSJ stands for Weekly Shonen Jump. And before you say it, Shonen is not a genre. |
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yhunata said: Fai said: Mars_ said: Death Note was a good example of Shounen deconstruction -Battle of wits instead of physical conflicts -sociopathic protagonist instead of altruistic protagonist -hatred & isolation instead of love & friendship -non-confrontational protagonist instead confrontational -dark & serious instead fun & lighthearted -law abiding antagonist instead of criminal antagonist -intelligent protagonist instead of idiotic protagonist and so on & so forth, outside of Death Note I can't think of too many other well written examples of actual shounens that deconstruct the genre without parodying it Death Note is not shonen. That's like calling Gantz shonen. .......... Last I checked, WSJ stands for Weekly Shonen Jump. And before you say it, Shonen is not a genre. Shonen is both a demographic(hence in the title of the magazine) AND a genre. Unless you are implying that fucking Hokuto no Ken is shounen, you should educate yourself. |
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Fai said: We already had "Deconstructions" of shonen genre. Multiple times. Shounen is not a genre. And Deconstruction =/= being different or atypical. Fai said: The most famous example being FMA:B No. Fai said: it takes shounen genre premise, however averts the usual tropes via realistic and unorthodox methods - there's no such thing as "power levels" and most of action involves actual tactics and strategy used. How did it put power levels into reality? it simply just didn't have main characters who powered up in some way. I can name other battle animanga that have strategy and tactic as the main theme of some or the majority of their fights. Having strategy is not uncommon in battle animanga, let alone a deconstruction if it is presented in one of them. Fai said: It eliminates the notion of prevalent sexism in shonen genre by presenting every female character with empowering and important role. What? there other battle animanga with important female figures. And even if we pretend that others don't have important female characters and if we pretend that FMA has important female characters (which they don't). How does that exactly deconstruct anything? you are still carrying with the notion that deconstruction = different. Fai said: Then there's a fact that main character is NOT the strongest and the "final solution" to everything was Grrr. Still on the same notion. So are many others. You seem like you have no idea what you are talking about. |
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Fai said: How the fuck is Shonen a genre? It literally means young boy/male. How the hell is "Young Boy/Male" a genre? Mod Edit: Modified quote tower; please spoiler or remove old quotes. |
sarroushMay 9, 2014 9:13 AM
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Fai said: yhunata said: Fai said: Mars_ said: Death Note was a good example of Shounen deconstruction -Battle of wits instead of physical conflicts -sociopathic protagonist instead of altruistic protagonist -hatred & isolation instead of love & friendship -non-confrontational protagonist instead confrontational -dark & serious instead fun & lighthearted -law abiding antagonist instead of criminal antagonist -intelligent protagonist instead of idiotic protagonist and so on & so forth, outside of Death Note I can't think of too many other well written examples of actual shounens that deconstruct the genre without parodying it Death Note is not shonen. That's like calling Gantz shonen. .......... Last I checked, WSJ stands for Weekly Shonen Jump. And before you say it, Shonen is not a genre. Shonen is both a demographic(hence in the title of the magazine) AND a genre. Unless you are implying that fucking Hokuto no Ken is shounen, you should educate yourself. Hokuto no Ken is also shounen. So is Death Note. Shounen is just a demographic, not a genre. Unless you meant to say that "teenage boy" is a genre. Also, your points regarding FMA would work better with Hunter X Hunter, which is closer to a "deconstruction". |
SolosMay 4, 2014 12:12 PM
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skudoops said: I guess several things like - Hard work is not always rewarded - Charging head first into battles is not a good idea - Always being nice or "the good guy" doesn't always work in your favour - You won't get more powerful just because your friends are around or in danger. Funny enough I have seen all of this, in battle anime that are usually referred to as generic/typical. Shouldn't number 3 be in like the harem genre or something? |
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| You could even call SnK a deconstruction since all of Eren's friends die instead of helping him. |
| No, since Eren friends are still alive and well (Armin, Misaka, Jean, Sasha, bald dude, the two lesbians) A bunch of fodder dying that are not even really close to Eren are not a deconstruction of that trope. |
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SolviteSekai said: You could even call SnK a deconstruction since all of Eren's friends die instead of helping him. I would think about Shingeki no Kyojin as a deconstruction if |
| 5 main aspects I base my ratings on: 1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it? 2. Is it better than Breaking Bad? 3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it? 4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL? 5. Is it actually good? Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant... |
tsudecimo said: No, since Eren friends are still alive and well (Armin, Misaka, Jean, Sasha, bald dude, the two lesbians) A bunch of fodder dying that are not even really close to Eren are not a deconstruction of that trope. Either way Kill la Kill or Kuroko no Basket both work as deconstructions. It doesn't have to be the exact opposite for it to be a deconstruction. Turning Battle Shounen tropes into a sports anime that clearly makes fun of itself is a deconstruction. |
SolviteWoTaberuMay 4, 2014 12:41 PM
bellellis said: To clarify deconstruction: It's correct that deconstruction is inherent in every text, which is to say everything in theory contains its own contradiction. [...] Deconstruction as a genre then, is when a show, or book, or something of any storytelling medium points out the contradictions that are to be found in whatever type of stories it is combined with. [...] Something closer to our own shores is obviously Neon Genesis Evangelion where the main characters suffer serious psychological problems from having the entire human species on their teenage shoulders, a predicament which anime characters until then had handled remarkably well. See, terms are still confused. That's not even what you say it is. Evangelion does not deconstruct; it simply subverts all the tropes of a typical robot show (A cruel rather than benevolent father bestowing technology that can trigger the world's destruction rather than just being a tool for salvation, a protagonist who's timid and reluctant instead of hot-blooded and driven, female characters who are either submissive to the point of creepiness or tsundere toward the MC instead of lovey dovey and pure, robot combat as traumatic rather than a process of growth and triumph, etc.) These aren't contradictions present in most super robot shows. They're simply inversions of the norm. What's most ironic is that, despite ostensibly trying to show the horrors of a psychologically "realistic" version of this kind of scenario, Eva actually captured the imaginations of more fans than most shows ever before had, and then you get people like Wes Anderson saying, not that this shows the horrific realities of the genre's concept, but that, "watched them all in less than a week because you start to want to believe it's real." |
JomeiMay 4, 2014 12:47 PM
SolviteSekai said: There is nothing realistic about the way things went down in Evangelion. Simply making things more tragic and edgy doesn't make it more realistic. Hence my putting "realistic" in scare quotes. The idea is that it's more realistic psychologically; "If kids really had to to this, it would be really hard on them!" edited post for clarification, though, so thanks. |
| Doesn't matter. The ''nakama'' group Eren had was not killed, which is the point. I sometimes wonder if you genuinely in whatever it is that you write or you just want to post and secretly laugh at people for taking you seriously. No, they are not deconstruction, and you are probably the first ever person to call them that. Deconstruction is to show the real consequences of trope in a realistic light. How does super power basketball achieve that? Kill la Kill is just over the top nonsense, it doesn't have any sort of deconstruction in it. geralt said: I would think about Shingeki no Kyojin as a deconstruction if Yeah. That would have been an obvious one to plot armor. I don't know of a fiction that did that before. |
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Jomei said: SolviteSekai said: There is nothing realistic about the way things went down in Evangelion. Simply making things more tragic and edgy doesn't make it more realistic. Hence my putting "realistic" in scare quotes. The idea is that it's more realistic psychologically; "If kids really had to to this, it would be really hard on them!" It isn't realistic psychologically. Only people with no experience around mental illness think the retarded over dramatic nonsense in Evangelion is psychologically relevant. |
tsudecimo said: Deconstruction is to show the real consequences of trope in a realistic light. That is incorrect. It's the common misconception. Meh, why bother, though? Not like the Derridian sense is much better. SolviteSekai said: Jomei said: SolviteSekai said: There is nothing realistic about the way things went down in Evangelion. Simply making things more tragic and edgy doesn't make it more realistic. Hence my putting "realistic" in scare quotes. The idea is that it's more realistic psychologically; "If kids really had to to this, it would be really hard on them!" It isn't realistic psychologically. Only people with no experience around mental illness think the retarded over dramatic nonsense in Evangelion is psychologically relevant. I'm not saying it's actually realistic or isn't. I'm saying that's the concept, or at least how people have often seen it. How the fuck would anyone know what an actual realistic response to piloting one's mom in the form of a giant mech to fight off alien invaders would be? |
Jomei said: tsudecimo said: Deconstruction is to show the real consequences of trope in a realistic light. That is incorrect. It's the common misconception. What is the correct definition then? I just go by which I find in TvTropes. |
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Jomei said: We can at least extrapolate what it would be like SOMEWHAT by looking at Child Soldiers forced to murder their own parents in third world countries. They still don't act like Shinji or Asuka did. |
sarroushMay 9, 2014 9:14 AM
tsudecimo said: Jomei said: tsudecimo said: Deconstruction is to show the real consequences of trope in a realistic light. That is incorrect. It's the common misconception. What is the correct definition then? I just go by which I find in TvTropes. Read back a couple pages. It's a theoretical term that's widely misunderstood and even pretty questionable when you read the source texts. Simply: it's the idea that every text contains its own contradictions, thus undermining what it seems to be trying to say. A common example is that the Lion King tries to present a message of harmony, unity, "the circle of life," but the circle of life in the film depends on the lion's supremacy and the hyenas being relegated to the outside of the system. |
| Apparently Tsudecimo's only definition of Deconstruction is madoka magicka. |
Jomei said: Read back a couple pages. It's a theoretical term that's widely misunderstood and even pretty questionable when you read the source texts. Simply: it's the idea that every text contains its own contradictions, thus undermining what it seems to be trying to say. A common example is that the Lion King tries to present a message of harmony, unity, "the circle of life," but the circle of life in the film depends on the lion's supremacy and the hyenas being relegated to the outside of the system. Aha. But that's kinda hard to interpret and hard to find. Do you have examples of anime that follow this definition? |
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SolviteSekai said: Apparently Tsudecimo's only definition of Deconstruction is madoka magicka. He's understanding it the way most anime fans seem to conceive of it; a show that subverts tropes or tries to apply them in a more realistic reductio ad Evangelion kind of way--that if you take a trope to its "logical" conclusion, it's going to be dark 'n edgy (hellz yeah). tsudecimo said: Jomei said: Read back a couple pages. It's a theoretical term that's widely misunderstood and even pretty questionable when you read the source texts. Simply: it's the idea that every text contains its own contradictions, thus undermining what it seems to be trying to say. A common example is that the Lion King tries to present a message of harmony, unity, "the circle of life," but the circle of life in the film depends on the lion's supremacy and the hyenas being relegated to the outside of the system. Aha. But that's kinda hard to interpret and hard to find. Do you have examples of anime that follow this definition? Yeah, it's pretty weird. And no, because the idea is that every text already deconstructs itself. Thus, even a text you think is "a deconstruction" is already contradicting itself (like how Evangelion seems to say "get outside your shell, Shinji! Connect with others!" and then seems to emphasize the necessity of division and the importance of individualism through his rejection of human instrumentality... kinda). I don't really endorse this theory, anyway, so I feel weird providing examples of it. lol |
JomeiMay 4, 2014 1:03 PM
yhunata said: How the fuck is Shonen a genre? It literally means young boy/male. How the hell is "Young Boy/Male" a genre? IT solidifies a series of tropes relevant to the age demographic of ten to 16 year old males, so yes it is a genre, just in different context of narrative from topical genres. tsudecimo said: 1 Fai said: The most famous example being FMA:B No. Good argumentation as fitting of someone who has fucking nardo as "10 out of 10 best ever" How did it put power levels into reality? it simply just didn't have main characters who powered up in some way. Which is subversion of shonen trope of progressively stronger main hero. I can name other battle animanga that have strategy and tactic as the main theme of some or the majority of their fights. Having strategy is not uncommon in battle animanga, let alone a deconstruction if it is presented in one of them. Just because other works deconstructed the genre, does not mean its no longer deconstruction. Having strategy is VERY uncommon as shonen genre usually devolves into "I haz this technique I never mentioned before that explodes suns" level of bullshit What? there other battle animanga with important female figures. NO in shonen genre there's not. In most of cases its plagued with needless fanservice and misogyny. And even if we pretend that others don't have important female characters and if we pretend that FMA has important female characters (which they don't). How does that exactly deconstruct anything? you are still carrying with the notion that deconstruction = different. Deconstruction IS difference. It takes the expectations of the subject and presents them in significantly different manner. If women are just an eyecandy in most of shonen works, they are NOT here, as we have a whole range of personality profiles being in influential and self-empowered positions. You seem like you have no idea what you are talking about. Concession accepted. skudoops said: I guess several things like - Hard work is not always rewarded - Charging head first into battles is not a good idea - Always being nice or "the good guy" doesn't always work in your favour - You won't get more powerful just because your friends are around or in danger. This is something that is severly lacking in ALL Of genres. It would be nice to see an anime/manga where the main character slowly turns into genuinely awful person, because notion of hard work and idealism brings absolutely nothing beneficial to the table and keeps hurting him. So far only TRC seemed to fit that trope as On that note, from manga(and anime), X/1999 also fits as shonen genre subversion/deconstruction. Hopefully Ufotable manages to correctly adapt FSN, because then we would have another example of successfully done shonen deconstruction, since the whole point of lead hero there is to be a deconstruction of traditional shonen hero. |
AhenshihaelMay 4, 2014 1:31 PM
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| @Fai: From what you're saying about this "shounen" genre, you only seem to be focusing on action shounen. Not all shounen are action oriented (those are referred to as "battle shounen"), not to mention the fact that it (along with the other demographics) have nothing to do with content. If Berserk was published in a shounen magazine, it would be shounen. Not because it has the "tropes". So the label itself isn't a genre because that would be like saying that something like Nisekoi or Pandora Hearts has anything in common with Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Both are shounen, but their content is completely (as well as their actual genres, as the former aren't action oriented but the latter is). |
SolosMay 4, 2014 1:51 PM
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SolBlade said: @Fai: From what you're saying about this "shounen" genre, you only seem to be focusing on action shounen. Not all shounen are action oriented (those are referred to as "battle shounen"), not to mention the fact that it (along with the other demographics) have nothing to do with content. If Berserk was published in a shounen magazine, it would be shounen. Not because it has the "tropes". So the label itself isn't a genre because that would be like saying that something like Nisekoi or Pandora Hearts has anything in common with Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Both are shounen, but their content is completely (as well as their actual genres, as the former aren't action oriented but the latter is). The concept of ideology and will prevailing over roadblocks has nothing to do with action shonen stuff. It simply has the most examples. YOu can as easily replace the setting, but as long as the tropes exist that define it it will be shonen. |
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Fai said: SolBlade said: @Fai: From what you're saying about this "shounen" genre, you only seem to be focusing on action shounen. Not all shounen are action oriented (those are referred to as "battle shounen"), not to mention the fact that it (along with the other demographics) have nothing to do with content. If Berserk was published in a shounen magazine, it would be shounen. Not because it has the "tropes". So the label itself isn't a genre because that would be like saying that something like Nisekoi or Pandora Hearts has anything in common with Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Both are shounen, but their content is completely (as well as their actual genres, as the former aren't action oriented but the latter is). The concept of ideology and will prevailing over roadblocks has nothing to do with action shonen stuff. It simply has the most examples. YOu can as easily replace the setting, but as long as the tropes exist that define it it will be shonen. While it is noticeable in quite a few shows under that particular demographic (the "idealism", that is), it doesn't mean that it has to have it to be "shounen". In fact, Idealism tends to be most prevalent in the younger demographics (shounen and shoujo, for instance). But that alone doesn't define a genre because a shounen doesn't need it to be "shounen". For instance, an anime cannot be labelled "action" unless it actually has action. Same cannot be said for shounen as there isn't anything that they all have in common or need to have in common to be labelled as such other than their origin of serialization (regarding source material, particularly manga and light novels). |
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Fai said: Mars_ said: Death Note was a good example of Shounen deconstruction -Battle of wits instead of physical conflicts -sociopathic protagonist instead of altruistic protagonist -hatred & isolation instead of love & friendship -non-confrontational protagonist instead confrontational -dark & serious instead fun & lighthearted -law abiding antagonist instead of criminal antagonist -intelligent protagonist instead of idiotic protagonist and so on & so forth, outside of Death Note I can't think of too many other well written examples of actual shounens that deconstruct the genre without parodying it Death Note is not shonen. That's like calling Gantz shonen. Nah, calling death note a Shounen would be like calling dragonball a Shounen since their both Shounen from the same magazine. But I can understand why you'd assume it's a Seinen manga based on the way it deconstructed the genre. |
Fai said: Good argumentation as fitting of someone who has fucking nardo as "10 out of 10 best ever" Eh? It's below where the argument is. Ironic that you followed that by an ad hominem. Good argumentation there. Tsk, Tsk. Fai said: Which is subversion of shonen trope of progressively stronger main hero. So that is your deconstruction definition. The presence of subversion? Fai said: Just because other works deconstructed the genre, does not mean its no longer deconstruction. Having strategy is VERY uncommon as shonen genre usually devolves into "I haz this technique I never mentioned before that explodes suns" level of bullshit Except those works didn't deconstruct it. It's common, and it's not as vapid and simple as you are making it out to be. Examples being, HxH, Naruto, Medaka Box, Magi, JoJo, Soul eater, etc. Even in some fights in Dragonball, One Piece and Bleach, albeit simpler in nature. Fai said: NO in shonen genre there's not. In most of cases its plagued with needless fanservice and misogyny. Plagued with fanservice? unless you are solely watching FT, I don't know how can you make that statement. There is no misogyny in Shounen. I will take an example of a battle anime that I don't even like, which One Piece, who have Robin and Nami who are much more important in their series than the few female characters in FMA who hardly had any importance like you claim. Deconstruction IS difference. It takes the expectations of the subject and presents them in significantly different manner. If women are just an eyecandy in most of shonen works, they are NOT here, as we have a whole range of personality profiles being in influential and self-empowered positions. Aha. So this is the definition you are operating on. This is the definition, I'm going with. Which makes more sense than your nonsense. Female characters are not just eye candy, not even in Fairy Tail. Fai said: SHOUNEN IS A GENRE No, it is factually not. Shōnen (少年?), shonen, or shounen, is a kango word literally meaning few years and generally referring to a typical boy, from elementary school through high school age. It is used in everyday conversation when referring to the period of youth, including in legal wording referencing youth, without regard to gender. Shōnen manga is a popular demographic of Japanese comics. It's not a genre and a demographic at the same time. The same ideals and friendship and what not are not present in any Shounen manga. ''Battle'' is an unofficial sub-genre of Shounen manga which are popular, which you seem to be confusing with ''Shounen''. What determines whether or not a manga is considered a Shounen manga is the magazine it's published in, and nothing else, as evident by the difference between Shounen manga in each generation (WSJ back then and WSJ now, and compared to Go Nagi), and the difference between each Shounen magazine content (Weekly Shounen Jump compared to Bessatsu Shounen Magazine) You don't get to make your own definitions of stuff. |
tsudecimoMay 4, 2014 2:17 PM
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wolowizard said: Ferolex said: I don't watch One Piece for the fights, I think they' can be really good when they come on, but I'm more interested in the story... DBZ on the other hand... lol... story? A One Piece fan bashing DBZ for having a simple-constructed plot...oh boy. Like One Piece is any better,its basically all about the Strawhats sailing from island to island and kicking some evil guys ass...Ferolex,go have an sexual intercouse with yourself,you troll One Piece has way, way more fights, and actually DBZ has some sense into some of them despite the explosions. And Goku has more growth than Luffy to give credit where it's due. |
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judals said: wolowizard said: Ferolex said: I don't watch One Piece for the fights, I think they' can be really good when they come on, but I'm more interested in the story... DBZ on the other hand... lol... story? A One Piece fan bashing DBZ for having a simple-constructed plot...oh boy. Like One Piece is any better,its basically all about the Strawhats sailing from island to island and kicking some evil guys ass...Ferolex,go have an sexual intercouse with yourself,you troll One Piece has way, way more fights, and actually DBZ has some sense into some of them despite the explosions. And Goku has more growth than Luffy to give credit where it's due. Of course One Piece has more fights. It's much longer. As for fights in proportion to everything else, it's much less. Also, DBZ covers more time until Goku's adulthood, so of course he'd grow more than Luffy, duh!!! He has an entire family. |
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