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| Wondering something unrelated. Has it ever been discussed if (includes a little spoiler for end of EP2)... ...Could have any significance at all or is just a silly easter egg? I think in the SN they just mention it's a kid show, but this is Umineko so... why those? |
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| I'm pretty sure it's just a silly easter egg |
Iriya said: Oh by the way, did anyone else lol when they saw Rika and Satoko on the TV behind Maria? YEAH! ME! Higurashi was playing indeed on that TV! HAHAH! |
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JackFrost said: Siva said: It seems like you can use magic to go against someone who doesn't believed in magic. Can, or can't? This is addressed to an extent in a later arc. Ah sorry my typo, I mean "can't". After rewatch the tea party again and I understand that this repeat-chessboard game is something which earn Beatrice the title Endless Witch. And there are a few things from that conversation that seem to be important which I am not entirely sure yet of what it is. |
 "A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie." |
| B'awwwwwwww. Kanon and Jessica's death.;_; |
ukonkiviAug 24, 2009 8:58 AM
 Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
ukonkivi said: B'awwwwwwww. Battler and Jessica's death.;_; You mean Kanon and Jessica right? |
ukonkivi said: If only it were true.Battler death.;_; |
Nayah said: ukonkivi said: If only it were true.Battler death.;_;  |
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| FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Remember: Do not try to type while sleepy. I am a failure of a Kanon fan.;_; |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| Kanon and Jessica's deaths were pretty sad. I'll give it a few more episodes before I decide to drop it, I don't feel like continuing this at all. |
KitteniaAug 24, 2009 9:49 AM
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MarthX said: Nayah said: ukonkivi said: If only it were true.Battler death.;_; It's useless....It's all useless! |
Renza said: MarthX said: Nayah said: ukonkivi said: If only it were true.Battler death.;_; It's useless....It's all useless! Say it in red! Say it in red! Anime is still failing on badass Battler. |
z2000 said: Renza said: MarthX said: Nayah said: ukonkivi said: If only it were true.Battler death.;_; It's useless....It's all useless! Say it in red! Say it in red! Anime is still failing on badass Battler. The anime has a good opportunity to change that next episode. |
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Renza said: Iriya said: Oh by the way, did anyone else lol when they saw Rika and Satoko on the TV behind Maria? I think we've established the fact that Maria was wastching Higurashi. And yes, a lot of other people loled. 'Scuse me, but I wasn't planning on flipping through 14 pages worth of comments to find out what everyone else wrote. z2000 said: Anime is still failing on badass Battler. Yeah, he's actually annoying me a lot right now. Here's to hoping he improves later? |
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| ugh u people are so picky about every little thing I hate it when people say "they changed it and now it sucks" their doing the best they can with their budget and the rules of Japanese TV |
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| Kanon is, so far, my favourite. And has been since his first appearance xP I hope he stays alive in one of the scenarios (or games, or whatever you want to call this) Uhh...censorship x__X |
- If you believe this place holds you, it is a prison. If you do not wish to leave, it will become a fortress. Current icon: Kusuriuri from Mononoke by pana (LJ username) |
Cenedess said: Kanon is, so far, my favourite. I'm glad you feel the same as me. I swooned heavily upon first seeing him. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| Kanon's pretty cool. He died with a bang in both arcs. |
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ukonkivi said: Cenedess said: Kanon is, so far, my favourite. I'm glad you feel the same as me. I swooned heavily upon first seeing him. Same here :) MarthX said: Kanon's pretty cool. He died with a bang in both arcs. His first death was especially epic o.o I know, I know, it was in THIS episode that he fought a dozen of weird creatures, but that time in the cellar he just...went gar o.O Battler's denial is funny xD And Maria is SO irritating. Can't stand her. |
- If you believe this place holds you, it is a prison. If you do not wish to leave, it will become a fortress. Current icon: Kusuriuri from Mononoke by pana (LJ username) |
ukonkivi said: Cenedess said: Kanon is, so far, my favourite. I'm glad you feel the same as me. I swooned heavily upon first seeing him. Hahaha, Kanon is my least faviorite character in Umineko. XD Battler is way more badass, and not emo. |
| This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." |
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Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." *Sigh* Another one. Do yourself a favor and just go read the VNs. They are much better and they shows you all of the characters thought processes. |
DrZedAug 25, 2009 6:08 PM
Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." I find it humorous how you call it dumb when you're the one jumping to conclusions. - Thinking Beatrice is the one maintaining the meta world and thinking she's why Battler is there. - Thinking the meta world existing is proof that magic exists. What if the meta world was simply the after life? That would blow away your assumptions, making a fool of yourself. Here's a little tip in case you never watched Higurashi: You shouldn't jump to conclusions. It's fine to theorize but don't be arrogant and act like you know everything. Zedrane said: *Sigh* Another one. Do yourself a favor and just go read the VNs. They are much better and they shows you all of the characters thought processes. Oh please.. enough with the anime hate. What he's complaining about would be no different in the VN because the meta world's existence is just as vague and mysterious. |
LunarEmeraldAug 25, 2009 6:19 PM
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MarthX said: - Thinking Beatrice is the one maintaining the meta world and thinking she's why Battler is there. - Thinking the meta world existing is proof that magic exists. What if the meta world was simply the after life? That would blow away your assumptions, making a fool of yourself. My 'quote' shouldn't have been taken so literally as the gospel of my argument. Your first counterpoint is irrelevant anyway, as whether or not she's the reason he's there doesn't make it any less likely the cause of his being there is some form of magic. Your second point, and subsequent point about it possibly being the afterlife is interesting, but it would simply become an argument of semantics. I may think the afterlife falls under the definition of "magic" whereas you may not. In my eyes, it seems there's no choice but to accept magic as existing in this world based on what I've seen and what I consider to be magic. To me, then, it appears the anime isn't being sensible within its own world, which I find particularly annoying. By no means do I plan to stop watching Umineko, and perhaps at some point I will find it to have redeemed itself, but until then, I am watching it rather begrudgingly. |
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Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." Well, whether it is magic or not, the existence of the meta-world must be some sort of supernatural. That's something can not be denied. But the main point of the battle between Beatrice and Battler is about whether magic exists in the real world. About Battler, he is stubborn and he is not the most intelligent character out there, so you shouldn't take everything he said literally. What he denies is magic in the real world, he can't accept that his family is killed by a witch. About Beatrice, she wants to prove that she exists in the real world, that's why she wants Battler to admit that the murders are commited by maigc. She'll never ask: "See? I can stop time! See? I can make red words appear in the air! Do you believe in magic now?" |
TribunusAug 25, 2009 7:45 PM
| 4saken, I must admit I didn't consider that interpretation of it, and thinking about it that way has made it much more palatable. |
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| Beatrice overruled this episode. I also believe that the 'red text' scenes should have been what longer, but you know what? If they are too long, you'll get distracted by it and lose focus of the rest of the episode. Anyhow, finally an episode that was at least fine. |
| Dutch anime blogger with a love for Ikuhara's antics and proper storytelling. |
| ok seriously what the HELL is going on? did i miss something? is battler thick? "i deny the use of magic even though we're magically watching you murder everyone magically" higurashi no naku koro ni didn't have me this confused and that's saying something. |
| the masochist says "hurt me! hurt me!" the sadist replies "no" |
4saken_762 said: Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." Well, whether it is magic or not, the existence of the meta-world must be some sort of supernatural. That's something can not be denied. But the main point of the battle between Beatrice and Battler is about whether magic exists in the real world. About Battler, he is stubborn and he is not the most intelligent character out there, so you shouldn't take everything he said literally. What he denies is magic in the real world, he can't accept that his family is killed by a witch. About Beatrice, she wants to prove that she exists in the real world, that's why she wants Battler to admit that the murders are commited by maigc. She'll never ask: "See? I can stop time! See? I can make red words appear in the air! Do you believe in magic now?" Yes even if we accept this then how to you explain showing her murdering them in person. I mean she killed Jessica and Kanon in frond of us using magic. Until that point you could say that we never actually saw her doing it put at that time they showed it to us. What's more to talk after that? Except if the only real murders where the first and this is just a delusion that Battler is watching in his afterlife. But if that is the case then what is the reason trying to prove anything through a dream like delusion that anything can happen since it's not reality and is not tied with the physical laws? What will there explanation be? "O! what we show you were lies and that never happen?" That will be the lamest stupidity ever. |
Monad said: 4saken_762 said: Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." Well, whether it is magic or not, the existence of the meta-world must be some sort of supernatural. That's something can not be denied. But the main point of the battle between Beatrice and Battler is about whether magic exists in the real world. About Battler, he is stubborn and he is not the most intelligent character out there, so you shouldn't take everything he said literally. What he denies is magic in the real world, he can't accept that his family is killed by a witch. About Beatrice, she wants to prove that she exists in the real world, that's why she wants Battler to admit that the murders are commited by maigc. She'll never ask: "See? I can stop time! See? I can make red words appear in the air! Do you believe in magic now?" Yes even if we accept this then how to you explain showing her murdering them in person. I mean she killed Jessica and Kanon in frond of us using magic. Until that point you could say that we never actually saw her doing it put at that time they showed it to us. What's more to talk after that? Except if the only real murders where the first and this is just a delusion that Battler is watching in his afterlife. But if that is the case then what is the reason trying to prove anything through a dream like delusion that anything can happen since it's not reality and is not tied with the physical laws? What will there explanation be? "O! what we show you were lies and that never happen?" That will be the lamest stupidity ever. Everything in Meta-World in under Beatrice's control, so everything showed to Battler (and us) is by Beatrice. What prevents her to bend the truth? And why do we need the Red Truth if we can trust everything we see? Umineko is about the battle between Beatrice and Battler. Choosing which side is up to you. If you are in Beatrice's, just ignore everything Battler says because he is an idiot. If you are in Battler's, then why do you believe in what the witch shows you? |
4saken_762 said: Monad said: 4saken_762 said: Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." Well, whether it is magic or not, the existence of the meta-world must be some sort of supernatural. That's something can not be denied. But the main point of the battle between Beatrice and Battler is about whether magic exists in the real world. About Battler, he is stubborn and he is not the most intelligent character out there, so you shouldn't take everything he said literally. What he denies is magic in the real world, he can't accept that his family is killed by a witch. About Beatrice, she wants to prove that she exists in the real world, that's why she wants Battler to admit that the murders are commited by maigc. She'll never ask: "See? I can stop time! See? I can make red words appear in the air! Do you believe in magic now?" Yes even if we accept this then how to you explain showing her murdering them in person. I mean she killed Jessica and Kanon in frond of us using magic. Until that point you could say that we never actually saw her doing it put at that time they showed it to us. What's more to talk after that? Except if the only real murders where the first and this is just a delusion that Battler is watching in his afterlife. But if that is the case then what is the reason trying to prove anything through a dream like delusion that anything can happen since it's not reality and is not tied with the physical laws? What will there explanation be? "O! what we show you were lies and that never happen?" That will be the lamest stupidity ever. Everything in Meta-World in under Beatrice's control, so everything showed to Battler (and us) is by Beatrice. What prevents her to bend the truth? And why do we need the Red Truth if we can trust everything we see? Umineko is about the battle between Beatrice and Battler. Choosing which side is up to you. If you are in Beatrice's, just ignore everything Battler says because he is an idiot. If you are in Battler's, then why do you believe in what the witch shows you? But if everything that Battler sees now is created by Beatrice then what is the reason for him trying to prove something over events she is giving him. Even if Beatrice has no power in the real world it would be impossible for Battler to prove it threw this procedures since what is happening is not a part of the real world but a part of an illusion she is showing him. So basically she can show him anything she wants including magic things happening. It's pointless for him to argue with her if witches exist in reality when he can't even see reality. But if the story we see is reality then he has no choice but to admit she's real since only her ability to bring back the dead and rewind the clock in the real world is enough proof. I don't have to choose a side. Am the viewer. An nether Beatrice or Battler. As time passes i will come to my own conclusions. And this is exactly were things get messed up. From the conversation that Battler had with Beatrice it seemed he was unaware of the events we saw in the room with Jessica and Kanon. Now why would Beatrice make a show for no one. The only person watching, was us the viewers. And obviously Beatrice has no knowledge of us since she is just an anime character and we are the superiors in this game. So i can only think of it as true or the attempt of the only other superior being and that will be the creators of the story, to confuse us by effectively making a mess out of there story and having to admit later that what we showed you was bullshit. |
Monad said: 4saken_762 said: Monad said: 4saken_762 said: Wizard03 said: This anime gets dumber every episode now that the first arc is over. "Hi, I'm Battler, and even though I'm in some kind of pocket dimension outside of an alternate reality thanks to someone claiming to be a witch, I still firmly believe that magic doesn't exist." Well, whether it is magic or not, the existence of the meta-world must be some sort of supernatural. That's something can not be denied. But the main point of the battle between Beatrice and Battler is about whether magic exists in the real world. About Battler, he is stubborn and he is not the most intelligent character out there, so you shouldn't take everything he said literally. What he denies is magic in the real world, he can't accept that his family is killed by a witch. About Beatrice, she wants to prove that she exists in the real world, that's why she wants Battler to admit that the murders are commited by maigc. She'll never ask: "See? I can stop time! See? I can make red words appear in the air! Do you believe in magic now?" Yes even if we accept this then how to you explain showing her murdering them in person. I mean she killed Jessica and Kanon in frond of us using magic. Until that point you could say that we never actually saw her doing it put at that time they showed it to us. What's more to talk after that? Except if the only real murders where the first and this is just a delusion that Battler is watching in his afterlife. But if that is the case then what is the reason trying to prove anything through a dream like delusion that anything can happen since it's not reality and is not tied with the physical laws? What will there explanation be? "O! what we show you were lies and that never happen?" That will be the lamest stupidity ever. Everything in Meta-World in under Beatrice's control, so everything showed to Battler (and us) is by Beatrice. What prevents her to bend the truth? And why do we need the Red Truth if we can trust everything we see? Umineko is about the battle between Beatrice and Battler. Choosing which side is up to you. If you are in Beatrice's, just ignore everything Battler says because he is an idiot. If you are in Battler's, then why do you believe in what the witch shows you? But if everything that Battler sees now is created by Beatrice then what is the reason for him trying to prove something over events she is giving him. Even if Beatrice has no power in the real world it would be impossible for Battler to prove it threw this procedures since what is happening is not a part of the real world but a part of an illusion she is showing him. So basically she can show him anything she wants including magic things happening. It's pointless for him to argue with her if witches exist in reality when he can't even see reality. But if the story we see is reality then he has no choice but to admit she's real since only her ability to bring back the dead and rewind the clock in the real world is enough proof. I don't have to choose a side. Am the viewer. An nether Beatrice or Battler. As time passes i will come to my own conclusions. And this is exactly were things get messed up. From the conversation that Battler had with Beatrice it seemed he was unaware of the events we saw in the room with Jessica and Kanon. Now why would Beatrice make a show for no one. The only person watching, was us the viewers. And obviously Beatrice has no knowledge of us since she is just an anime character and we are the superiors in this game. So i can only think of it as true or the attempt of the only other superior being and that will be the creators of the story, to confuse us by effectively making a mess out of there story and having to admit later that what we showed you was bullshit. Beatrice can only bend the truth, she can make something total new because she has some restriction: - First, the red truth. It's the absolutely truth, so she can't make scenes that violate them. - The piece-Battler's point of view. The VN players consider his point of view is trustworthy because all "magical murders" only happen when he's not around. So every scene when the piece-Battler is true, it can't be fake. - The trace of the murders, which will be found by the piece-Battler, they are also considered trustworthy. So however Beatrice bends the truth, it must not contradict with the trace left behind. About the Meta-Battler, we don't know exactly what he saw. I think that he saw the Kanon scene, but I'm not sure. And maybe you are right about the "Beatrice make a show for no one" part. It's just like in the end of ep 5 Bernkastel is "talking to no one". I think maybe there's someone else is watching all of this. But it's just my guess. |
JackFrost said: It is the latter case. This series is as much a game between Beatrice and Battler as it is a game between us and the author of the story, so he will present us scenes from Beatrice's game board as if we were in meta-Battler's position - meaning that we cannot completely trust what we are seeing. However, these scenes will appear to be consistent with the parts of the board that piece-Battler does see. They're meant to increase the difficulty of the mystery for us, by creating the illusion that Beatrice's narrative is completely consistent. It's not like they're completely bsing us though; the storytelling is limited because it can only bend the truth thanks to the red text, not completely overwrite it, so it is likely that something actually is taking place during the magic scenes. The scenes are probably gross exaggerations of what did happen, if anything. It is our responsibility to decipher what actually did happen from this. Hmmm,that sounds intriguing.Though i nearly gave up on watching further. Seems like there`s some hope about the story becoming realy interesting :? |
 "Only the dead have seen the end of war". ~Plato~ |
| If you remove all the "magical scene", then it'll become a standard murder mystery. If they show us exactly how the murders happened, then it is no longer a mystery. I think that's why the story is told that way. Not in a straightforward way, but told in riddle. Those scenes can be noise, but they can also be hints. |
JackFrost said: Monad said: So i can only think of it as true or the attempt of the only other superior being and that will be the creators of the story, to confuse us by effectively making a mess out of there story and having to admit later that what we showed you was bullshit. It is the latter case. This series is as much a game between Beatrice and Battler as it is a game between us and the author of the story, so he will present us scenes from Beatrice's game board as if we were in meta-Battler's position - meaning that we cannot completely trust what we are seeing. However, these scenes will appear to be consistent with the parts of the board that piece-Battler does see. They're meant to increase the difficulty of the mystery for us, by creating the illusion that Beatrice's narrative is completely consistent. It's not like they're completely bsing us though; the storytelling is limited because it can only bend the truth thanks to the red text, not completely overwrite it, so it is likely that something actually is taking place during the magic scenes. The scenes are probably gross exaggerations of what did happen, if anything. It is our responsibility to decipher what actually did happen from this. Yeah i guess that's how it is is someway and we just have to accept it. Still i prefer the mystery part. |
| Wow. Liked this episode much more than the previous ones. Kanons battle was really cool, finally showing a fight directly against Beatrice. The thing with the red words...I think it makes the whole really interesting^^ |
| only one thing to say: I liked the second twilight. Asmodeus, Satan and the Goats(I thought it was only one in the novel? I'm not too sure about that). |
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| I think I found a flaw in the Debate/Key scene, if it is true that the key was taken out and put back in later, WONT THE SEAL ON THE ENVELOPE BE BROKEN AND THE PPL WOULD KNOW RIGHT AWAY?! |
Aspha said: I think I found a flaw in the Debate/Key scene, if it is true that the key was taken out and put back in later, WONT THE SEAL ON THE ENVELOPE BE BROKEN AND THE PPL WOULD KNOW RIGHT AWAY?! That's addressed in the game. Beatrice says the seal wasn't broken, but that doesn't matter since you can reseal an envelope. |
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MarthX said: Aspha said: I think I found a flaw in the Debate/Key scene, if it is true that the key was taken out and put back in later, WONT THE SEAL ON THE ENVELOPE BE BROKEN AND THE PPL WOULD KNOW RIGHT AWAY?! That's addressed in the game. Beatrice says the seal wasn't broken, but that doesn't matter since you can reseal an envelope. That would mean the culprit would be Beatrice or the Grandfather since only they have the Seals |
| A question I just thought; Why is it that when Kanon died, afterward Battler makes no mention. or concern about it? The matter being that he would've at least brought up Kanon's sword, and the three goats at the time perplexes me. He would've had to see it to deny it happened in that way to have future privilege/knowledge for it, but that so when he speaks to Beato even in the VN Meta doesn't say that much of it..... |
RognaSep 3, 2009 9:44 PM
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