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| You're missing the point that the fantasy scenes are supposed to be ridiculous. They're ridiculous because they're false. Remember how the first episode of Haruhi season one was bad? It was bad on purpose. If you don't like the fantasy scenes then spend your time thinking how everything could be done if you took out the fantasy elements. |
PsychFreak said: now why would I drop something that so bad its entertaining. Seriously, I watching it for the same reason as CG:R2 I wanna see how much worse it will get.Metroid_Ex said: PsychFreak said: Metroid_Ex said: god, this anime is awful That was a very useful post, you gave a very nice explanation on why this anime is so awful. I'd rather not take time to compare this shit with the worst movies to ever grace the sci-fi channel. Well I'm afraid I won't be able to help you in trying to understand this. If you truly think it's awful no matter what is being presented to you or what some of us are trying to do to let you understand this anime, all I can is two words: |
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MarthX said: oh, so are we gonna spoil shit now, even if its whhat I already suspected. You don't seem to see the main problem with this piece of shit and that is the god awful characters and how inconstant they are.You're missing the point that the fantasy scenes are supposed to be ridiculous. They're ridiculous because they're false. |
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| That's not a spoiler. It should be obvious that they are. Otherwise there's no mystery and Umineko is a mystery show. I don't see how you can think the characters are inconstant though. If you mean how Battler suddenly accepted the witch. That's because he doesn't want to suspect anyone. He's tired of all the mistrust and accusations. |
| The anime does do a pretty bad job with the characters |
MarthX said: I don't see how you can think the characters are inconsistent though.  |
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| i also don't think characters are inconsistet. And umineko is all about the mystery, what is fun in it is trying to understand what makes some of those things possible just like battler's trying to do. no one is spoiling anyone saying that, i think it's pretty obvious. |
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Metroid_Ex said: MarthX said: I don't see how you can think the characters are inconsistent though. Easy to mistake words. So sue me. |
| I bet any notion you have that the characters are inconstant is a misunderstanding on your part. If you mean how Battler suddenly accepted the witch. That's because he doesn't want to suspect anyone. He's tired of all the mistrust and accusations. The anime doesn't go as far to directly say that but it makes it obvious. |
hirahira said: MarthX said: A shame the You are incompetent line was cut though. it really is a shame. I was so sure that they would keep that line. And it would make all the Battler haters happy. Gohda is so funny. Beelzebub's voice is even more annoying than Asmo's but I guess it doesn't matter since she won't be in it much. I'm still really suspicious of George for this arc. The guy stays so calm even after his parents were killed in the first arc. :| I still regard Nanjo, and Kuma as accomplices along the lines aswell. Overall I enjoyed this episode much ore than the last 2, which puts my hopes up for Banquet to have a good adaption. |
PsychFreak said: MarthX said: I bet any notion you have that the characters are inconstant is a misunderstanding on your part. If you mean how Battler suddenly accepted the witch. That's because he doesn't want to suspect anyone. He's tired of all the mistrust and accusations. The anime doesn't go as far to directly say that but it makes it obvious. Many can probably see that but the anime is really not doing a good job in explaining these things, it makes it hard for the people who want everything served on the platter for them difficult in terms of understanding the characters. Many people hate Battler because of this, they really don't understand what's going on in his head and it makes it hard for them to enjoy this anime when they think the protagonist is a dimwit. Umineko is a thinking series though. It shouldn't have to explain everything to such detail as the VN, as long as it makes it obvious enough that someone who actually thinks could figure it out. I'm tired of having to explain things. Does nobody think for themselves? Do they need the anime to hold their hand and thoroughly explain everything? Maybe I should just accept that Umineko is too deep for most people. An elitist attitude that I normally detest but it seems to be the case. |
MarthX said: deep, deep you say. If you want to watch something deep go watch Kino's Journey. This anime is not deep at all.PsychFreak said: MarthX said: I bet any notion you have that the characters are inconstant is a misunderstanding on your part. If you mean how Battler suddenly accepted the witch. That's because he doesn't want to suspect anyone. He's tired of all the mistrust and accusations. The anime doesn't go as far to directly say that but it makes it obvious. Many can probably see that but the anime is really not doing a good job in explaining these things, it makes it hard for the people who want everything served on the platter for them difficult in terms of understanding the characters. Many people hate Battler because of this, they really don't understand what's going on in his head and it makes it hard for them to enjoy this anime when they think the protagonist is a dimwit. Umineko is a thinking series though. It shouldn't have to explain everything to such detail as the VN, as long as it makes it obvious enough that someone who actually thinks could figure it out. I'm tired of having to explain things. Does nobody think for themselves? Do they need the anime to hold their hand and thoroughly explain everything? Maybe I should just accept that Umineko is too deep for most people. An elitist attitude that I normally detest but it seems to be the case. |
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Metroid_Ex said: MarthX said: deep, deep you say. If you want to watch something deep go watch Kino's Journey. This anime is not deep at all.PsychFreak said: MarthX said: I bet any notion you have that the characters are inconstant is a misunderstanding on your part. If you mean how Battler suddenly accepted the witch. That's because he doesn't want to suspect anyone. He's tired of all the mistrust and accusations. The anime doesn't go as far to directly say that but it makes it obvious. Many can probably see that but the anime is really not doing a good job in explaining these things, it makes it hard for the people who want everything served on the platter for them difficult in terms of understanding the characters. Many people hate Battler because of this, they really don't understand what's going on in his head and it makes it hard for them to enjoy this anime when they think the protagonist is a dimwit. Umineko is a thinking series though. It shouldn't have to explain everything to such detail as the VN, as long as it makes it obvious enough that someone who actually thinks could figure it out. I'm tired of having to explain things. Does nobody think for themselves? Do they need the anime to hold their hand and thoroughly explain everything? Maybe I should just accept that Umineko is too deep for most people. An elitist attitude that I normally detest but it seems to be the case. Says someone who fails to understand basic concepts. |
| Does anyone get the feeling that all the doors have automatic locking mechanisms like the grandfathers room? It never crossed my mind till this episode when a) They couldn't keep the door locked and b) they couldn't unlock the door. It would be funny if this is really the case. Anyone with technical knowhow on how the locks are setup for the house could jump from one room to the other without a key. Something else that was noticeable was when she was talking in red about how one cant enter or exit a room without a key, she didn't add "by any means" this time. Meaning there's other ways to enter the room other then by key now. This further proves my point last episode where each incident cant be considered the same as the last. Each one has separate rules that can or cant be broken. As for the series...I'm not finding it as appealing as I thought it would. The first few episodes sparked my interest but once everyone died and this turned into a second rehash story it kind of turned stupid. Not to mention the killings are no where near as disturbing as that other series that "we must not compare" the two too :D. |
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Metroid_Ex said: You don't seem to see the main problem with this piece of shit and that is the god awful characters and how inconstant they are. Can you tell me how inconstant they are, please? Metroid_Ex said: This anime is not deep at all. It's just ep 10. How do you know that it's not deep? |
| I think the VN readers should back down a bit with some of the responses to the fantasy believers. If they want to believe everything they see that happens is real, and become disappointed, let them do it. It's not like a huge loss or anything. It's part of the experience, even if it can be painful for them. If some people are as stubborn in believing the fantasy stuff as Battler is in denying magic and witches, just let them believe it. |
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| Hahaha oh man, those threads are the highlights after every ep... As a VN reader I couldnt care less about the Anime only fags and their complaining about it, if you dont get the concept, stop watching it, thats all there is to it, it was the same with Higurashi S2, people hated it because it had a deeper meaning and it wasnt little girls slaughtering each other anymore. Like I stated earlier, this adaption is for the VN readers, if you try to understand Umineko by only watching the Anime, youre doing it wrong. Same goes for hating on it, you cant hate the series as a whole if you didnt read the VN, hate on the Anime all you want, because its impossible to put all the feeling of the VN into a animated show. Also, Metroid_Ex said: Hahaha, thats a good onedeep, deep you say. If you want to watch something deep go watch Kino's Journey. This anime is not deep at all. |
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| What I love most is that there are a lot of VN readers who seem to feel superior because they have more (but not all) of the information. Almost as though they know the complete solution, and aren't also in a place of uncertainty. For that, I'd like to especially commend MarthX for remaining patient and maintaining a tone that isn't condescending toward other members. It's a negative tone like that that takes us out of the realm of true discussion and into flames baiting. |
Trineas said: Like I stated earlier, this adaption is for the VN readers, if you try to understand Umineko by only watching the Anime, youre doing it wrong. I don't think so, if the watchers can't understand it without the original work, then that means the adaption sucks. And I think the anime is doing quite well so far. |
In chess, a back rank checkmate is a checkmate delivered by a rook or queen along a back rank (that is, the row on which the pieces (not pawns) stand at the start of the game) in which the mated king is unable to move up the board because the king is blocked by friendly pieces (usually pawns) on the second rank. Back rank mates occur quite often in games at fairly low levels, as it occurs out of carelessness. This is due to the fact that beginners typically lack the skill to realize that such a fate could occur based on the laws of the game. This describes Battler's situation in EP2 perfectly. DEEN is doing a good job with the episode titles. |
LunarEmeraldSep 3, 2009 8:54 PM
| One thing I would like to say is that the majority of what the VN readers say is going to be simple speculation. Most of the VN readers are good in that regard but a few of them seem to be relaying this speculation as facts which I do not agree with. And I will agree that if you don't want to seriously think about what you are seeing than you will most likely not like Umineko. But there is nothing wrong with not wanting to have to seriously think about a series. If someone just wants to watch something and enjoy it like that there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean that person is an idiot or anything of the sort. And it is a perfectly valid reason to not like the series. That being said I think I have only seen around 2 or 3 VN readers acting like elitists over the course of these discussion threads, so I don't think its been that bad. Although as a VN reader my opinion may be biased and I'm viewing elitist comments as non-elitist. |
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| You know, honestly, I almost think this show is anti-thought. It takes a genre which is supposed to be about thinking, and stuffs it with elements that, in these cirumstances just don't agree, arguing that point back and forth, to the point that it's not really about thinking, it's just about guessing and seeing what is the lesser of two evils when you as a viewer have very little to stand on (not even the world itself), or not thinking at all and just enjoying the killings, swords fights, furniture battles, cackles, twisted faces, and music as they appear. |
| Nope, because I'm at the point where I'm looking at it from both sides since I'm not satisfied with the presentation of magic in the show, and I yet still believe that magic was the cause of the initial murders. As you can see from my posts in this episode and I think maybe the last two, I've been more concerned about what is said regarding where people are and what they are and aren't saying. To me, the whole show is over-wrought and trying too hard to be cerebral with the "turning the chessboard around," blurry, undefined, inconsistent narration, meta-world, Schroedinger's cat and other thought experiments while doing a terrible job at the most important things like 3 dimensional characters, coherence, and focus. |
| This is a quote from Bern in the VN that should have been inlcluded in episode 5 of the anime but for some reason was not. It somewhat explains how you should be thinking. "First of all, about that girl. She does have the name Beatrice, but that does not mean that she is 'one individual women'. See what I mean? In other words, she's not some human. Her existence is a personification of the rules of this world. To beat her, you have to expose the rules of this world, and unravel them. If we were to compare, it would be something like learning the rules by watching a game of chess where you don't know them. First, take a good look at the chessboard. Then, learn the movements and roles of the pieces. Then, look for the conditions required to win at her game. When you've managed to expose those, there her heart will be exposed. After that, you can rip it apart or crush it as you please." |
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| Isn't that what everyone wants? Isn't that the basis of good storytelling? And yet people say it's good, most of the episodes have a majority of positive votes, and I'm left scratching my head why. |
| I think different people have different opinions on what they want from a story. Some people are willing to look past a bad plot if it has really good characters, and some people are willing to look past horribly developed characters if the plot is really interesting. |
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| Thinking the story isn't coherent would the same as thinking Higurashi's wasn't. Kai proved otherwise. They're called question arcs for a reason you know. |
| @MarthX I don't think that's true. I saw coherence in Higurashi's plot the first season. It wasn't trying to do so much besides show that there are murders that happen randomly, and give you a handful of characters. No one was really out to solve anything because it always reset. The only problem there was that I got very bored after the first arc. Umineko is basically doing the same thing so far, except that they're trying to answer the question before there are even questions to be asked, and there is no solid world for the viewer to place their perspective of leading people to question what they saw. |
noteDhero said: Isn't that what everyone wants? Isn't that the basis of good storytelling? And yet people say it's good, most of the episodes have a majority of positive votes, and I'm left scratching my head why. From here and other forums, from what I've seen they like it because of the mystery. Even if they don't understand what's going on, they still like to make theories. They also realize that the series is continually building up. Which is right. Every arc builds off another and as a result, it only improves as it goes on. A lot of people also enjoy mindfucks. They enjoy not knowing what's going or what's going to happen. Aside from knowing people will die, Umineko is very unpredictable. Just when you think things can't get crazier, they do. |
noteDhero said: @MarthX I don't think that's true. I saw coherence in Higurashi's plot the first season. It wasn't trying to do so much besides show that there are murders that happen randomly, and give you a handful of characters. No one was really out to solve anything because it always reset. The only problem there was that I got very bored after the first arc. Umineko is basically doing the same thing so far, except that they're trying to answer the question before there are even questions to be asked, and there is no solid world for the viewer to place their perspective of leading people to question what they saw. Higurashi's first season is more coherent because it includes two of the Answer Arcs. In fact, just more than a half of it is Question Arcs. Let's assume that Higurashi's first season ends at ep 15, I'm sure that everyone will say "wtf". About Umineko, I think there is no question needed to ask apart from "Who did it? How? Why?" And about the solid perspective, yes, Umineko doesn't have it. But what is the problem? Even if we have a solid perspective, we still can't trust whatver we see. People can lie, evidence can be fake. So we still have to think and decide ourselves what we should trust. So just do the same thing with Umineko. |
noteDhero said: @MarthX I don't think that's true. I saw coherence in Higurashi's plot the first season. It wasn't trying to do so much besides show that there are murders that happen randomly, and give you a handful of characters. No one was really out to solve anything because it always reset. The only problem there was that I got very bored after the first arc. Umineko is basically doing the same thing so far, except that they're trying to answer the question before there are even questions to be asked, and there is no solid world for the viewer to place their perspective of leading people to question what they saw. Questions were asked with the seemingly impossible murders. And now the series is forcing magic down your throat. Trying to make you submit and believe magic is the cause of everything. EP2 is described as "the difficulty is top-rate" And "The Witch intends to make you surrender with no warning" But this is Ryuukishi we're talking about here. The answer isn't going something obvious. The series isn't going to be as black and white as it appears to be. We're just scratching at the surface of the series. Trying to understand all of Umineko right now would be like trying to understand all of Higurashi at Watanagashi. There's so much that we don't know. (VN readers included) Watanagashi by the way is the second arc of Higurashi. |
LunarEmeraldSep 3, 2009 10:39 PM
| Yeah. The first season of Higurashi covered 6 arcs, 2 of which were answer arcs. Question Onikakushi (1-4) Watanagashi (5-8) Tatarigoroshi (9-13) Himatsubushi (14-15) Answer Meakashi (16-21) Tsumihoroboshi (22-26) This season of Umineko will only cover the first four arcs. It would like Higurashi's first season stopping at episode 15. |
PsychFreak said: There are indeed questions to be asked and that is what the Meta-World is for, Beatrice is presenting you with the questions while Battler tries to answer it. The thing is, Battler as of now is having a hard time trying to figure most of this out so we aren't really getting any answers yet. If you don't want to question what you saw that's fine but you have to explain why it can't be questioned in the first place, otherwise you're just riding on with Beatrice for the hell of it. PsychFreak said: If you look at the story this way, the Meta-World can make a whole lot more sense. It can also make sense on how there are questions being presented. I'm not confused about the way the story works. After a breakdown during the transition between the first and second arcs, that's totally clear to me. I'm making observations on the show as a whole. You're leaving out a couple of important points, though: 1) You are also dead, and you have recollection of it. 2) The person filling you in claims to be your killer. If I look at it the way that you ask, of course there are questions that are in my head because as far as I know, magic doesn't exist. The rub of this "reality" is that Battler already knows he's dead and a woman using golden butterflies claims to be the killer. Should he still question her motives for being so upfront? Yes. Does Battler do that? No. Instead, he wastes time saying magic doesn't exist, and denying her existence, failing to come up with a logical explanation for anything he tries to prove. His very existence is a diversion of anti-fantasy proponents. Instead of actually pushing forward trying to discover who killed him and his family, Battler refuses to suspect anyone. On the level of the show being a mystery, it fails big time because of this, since we're stuck with an ignoramous of a main character chasing his tail while the antagonist simply laughs at his inanity. Beatrice isn't really asking any questions that weren't asked in those first five episodes, those being: "What's happening?" and "How is that possible?" Most of the time, rather than actually attempt to figure out what is going on, Battler is defending the next person to be questioned with his silly metaphors, and only once (maybe twice) did he succeed, but only to bring him back to square one. If we look at this second, untrustworthy narrator within the game board as Beatrice, then she's giving us crazy random answers to deaths that may or may not have happened. That's why I've said, for maybe the third episode now, that there seem to be only a handful of truly important things mentioned during a single episode, while the rest is all a big diversion. I almost totally ignore Battler, and instead concentrate on what Beatrice is not saying. What Maria says before and after Higurashi face, and any other peculiar going's on between the servants and the doctor. That's it. Flying daggers, spiderwebs, bulk of meta conversations, etc bear almost no weight with me because it all seems like flashy diversion. Filler if you will. 4saken_762 said: Higurashi's first season is more coherent because it includes two of the Answer Arcs. In fact, just more than a half of it is Question Arcs. Let's assume that Higurashi's first season ends at ep 15, I'm sure that everyone will say "wtf". About Umineko, I think there is no question needed to ask apart from "Who did it? How? Why?" And about the solid perspective, yes, Umineko doesn't have it. But what is the problem? Even if we have a solid perspective, we still can't trust whatver we see. People can lie, evidence can be fake. So we still have to think and decide ourselves what we should trust. So just do the same thing with Umineko. As I said, I was ''wtf" after the first arc, and then everything else ran together because it was the same notes being hit over and over again, just in a differen't way. It's not like Umineko where one episode is more outrageous than the next, there's no uniform perspective, and there is nothing to go off of. Higurashi would just have been boring and pointless, feeling more like an empty harem, than anything else. Umineko just feels like a scatterbrained mess. |
noteDheroSep 3, 2009 11:48 PM
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