Who is the strongest servant in Fate-verse?
Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Ah, my mistake then. So yep, no chances for her. |
BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Not so fast. Why wouldn't she be able to charge Excalibur? The reason she can't attack or be attacked is that Avalon temporarily sticks her in the domain of the fairies so that she can't interact with the rest of the world. Since she brings Excalibur with her, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to charge it there and then use it once she exits Avalon. |
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ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Not so fast. Why wouldn't she be able to charge Excalibur? The reason she can't attack or be attacked is that Avalon temporarily sticks her in the domain of the fairies so that she can't interact with the rest of the world. Since she brings Excalibur with her, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to charge it there and then use it once she exits Avalon. I wonder what will happen if she uses a blast right in front of her,if she can charge it inside Avalon.The mana consumption would be too great and with Lancelot right in front of her the blast would take her out as well. |
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ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Not so fast. Why wouldn't she be able to charge Excalibur? The reason she can't attack or be attacked is that Avalon temporarily sticks her in the domain of the fairies so that she can't interact with the rest of the world. Since she brings Excalibur with her, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to charge it there and then use it once she exits Avalon. Even assuming it's possible (It's not possible), any Saber other than Rin Saber (Alter won't have Avalon) would disappear from the mana drain. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Not so fast. Why wouldn't she be able to charge Excalibur? The reason she can't attack or be attacked is that Avalon temporarily sticks her in the domain of the fairies so that she can't interact with the rest of the world. Since she brings Excalibur with her, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to charge it there and then use it once she exits Avalon. Even assuming it's possible (It's not possible), any Saber other than Rin Saber (Alter won't have Avalon) would disappear from the mana drain. It would be nice if you backed up your assertions. |
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ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Not so fast. Why wouldn't she be able to charge Excalibur? The reason she can't attack or be attacked is that Avalon temporarily sticks her in the domain of the fairies so that she can't interact with the rest of the world. Since she brings Excalibur with her, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to charge it there and then use it once she exits Avalon. Even assuming it's possible (It's not possible), any Saber other than Rin Saber (Alter won't have Avalon) would disappear from the mana drain. It would be nice if you backed up your assertions. You are the one who claimed that Saber can so it would be nice if you backed up your assertions first. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Ragna92 said: Trenerka said: Ragna92 said: Can Saber with Avalon beat Berserker(Zero) if he has a proper master? I don't think so, she admits herself that he is a better swordsman. And Avalon wouldn't be really that useful in swordfight, aside from being a healing factorand giving a possibility for short break. Unless she used it to shield herself while she charges Excalibur (because I can't imagine Berserker giving her enough time to do it during the battle). After that it is a question of whether Berserker would have enough sanity to realize what's going on and dodge Excaliblast. But aside from the successful Excaliblasting scenario I don't see her winning. Can she even charge Excalibur while in Avalon? I'm pretty sure she can't. She can't. That's why Avalon is useless against Lancelot. Not so fast. Why wouldn't she be able to charge Excalibur? The reason she can't attack or be attacked is that Avalon temporarily sticks her in the domain of the fairies so that she can't interact with the rest of the world. Since she brings Excalibur with her, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to charge it there and then use it once she exits Avalon. Even assuming it's possible (It's not possible), any Saber other than Rin Saber (Alter won't have Avalon) would disappear from the mana drain. It would be nice if you backed up your assertions. You are the one who claimed that Saber can so it would be nice if you backed up your assertions first. Well, if you're going to go the "you were first" route, it was actually you who first stated that she can't. But I digress. My argument is that given what we know about Avalon, it makes sense that she could do stuff while using it since all it does is "move" her. |
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| No. She can't charge Excalibur inside Avalon? Why? Not only because you can't channel two different spells at the same time(Spells =/= NP, I know, but you get the idea). But Avalon + Excalibur would consume a massive amount of mana. Oh, and btw, just because there isn't evidence that she CAN'T, doesn't mean she CAN. |
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Juusan13 said: No. She can't charge Excalibur inside Avalon? Why? Not only because you can't channel two different spells at the same time(Spells =/= NP, I know, but you get the idea). But Avalon + Excalibur would consume a massive amount of mana. Oh, and btw, just because there isn't evidence that she CAN'T, doesn't mean she CAN. With respect to your last statement, it goes the other way as well, amirite? But anyways, like you said, Spells =/= NP. We have stated many times in this thread that Gil should hypothetically be able to charge Ea while spamming GoB. And then there's all the times he's used Enkidu + GoB. Clearly multiple NPs can be used at the same time... For more spell-like examples, what about For Someone's Glory + Knight of Honor? Avalon + Excalibur would consume a lot of mana, yes, but no more than it would if she did them in succession. And it's not like she needs to do it multiple times to win, since one successful Excaliblast would be enough. |
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| No, he wouldn't be able to charge Ea and spam, for the very same reason, just like he can't shoot while moving. And Enkidu is inside GoB so that part makes no sense. Also, For Someone's Glory + Knight of Honor makes no sense either since both are passive NPs, they don't need activation. |
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Juusan13 said: No, he wouldn't be able to charge Ea and spam, for the very same reason, just like he can't shoot while moving. And Enkidu is inside GoB so that part makes no sense. Also, For Someone's Glory + Knight of Honor makes no sense either since both are passive NPs, they don't need activation. Everything Gil has is "inside" GoB. Ea is also inside GoB until he takes it out. The point is that he can use Enkidu to hold divine Servants in place while using GoB to chuck swords at them which is two active NPs at the same time regardless of where Enkidu came from. Sure, Lancelot's NPs don't require activation, but they are both active NPs in that they have an external effect unlike, say, Gae Dearg and Gae Buidhe which are passive in that they have certain intrinsic properties. Anyways, given that your whole argument is that NPs can't be used at the same time because multiple spells can't be cast at the same time, I don't see the relevance to begin with. NPs aren't the same as spells. Fundamentally speaking, NPs are weapons that somehow represent the Heroic Spirit they are associated with. The fact that some of them have different modes of attack (Gae Bolg, Excaliblast, etc.) doesn't change the act that they are weapons and not spells. Being stuck in place for Ea is a unique example that does not apply to any other attack. And it's not like Saber is using Excalibur inside Avalon anyways. She'd be charging it so that she can use it outside, which means that technically, only one NP is active at a time. |
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| I believe that Servants can use multiple NPs.The problem is the Mana consumption. Gil uses Vimana AND GoB together.Enkidu has part of it still inside GoB so itdoesnt count as a second. Back to Lancelot vs Saber. Rin Saber disappeared after using Excalibur.Even thought there were some reasons behind that Rin just couldnt keep her in the world anymore.<-Forget you ever read that.Now imagine Saber using Avalon.That means that her opponent IS attacking her.In this case Lancelot is right in front of her.After using so much mana for sustaining Avalon AND charging Excalibur, even IF she was still able to maintain her physical form,releasing the blast right in front of her(whenever Lancelot stopped attacking that is) would kill her along with him.IF Saber Alter had Avalon it may have been different but who knows.For all we know Avalon may return her to normal Saber and possible losing the connection with Sakura. If Lancelot wasnt a Berseker he could probably even have chances to avoid the blast.He doesnt only have Eternal arts mastership and protection of the fairies but he also knows Arturia. |
ssjokgJun 26, 2012 9:26 PM
ssjokg said: I believe that Servants can use multiple NPs.The problem is the Mana consumption. Gil uses Vimana AND GoB together.Enkidu has part of it still inside GoB so itdoesnt count as a second. Back to Lancelot vs Saber. Rin Saber disappeared after using Excalibur.Even thought there were some reasons behind that Rin just couldnt keep her in the world anymore.<-Forget you ever read that.Now imagine Saber using Avalon.That means that her opponent IS attacking her.In this case Lancelot is right in front of her.After using so much mana for sustaining Avalon AND charging Excalibur, even IF she was still able to maintain her physical form,releasing the blast right in front of her(whenever Lancelot stopped attacking that is) would kill her along with him.IF Saber Alter had Avalon it may have been different but who knows.For all we know Avalon may return her to normal Saber and possible losing the connection with Sakura. If Lancelot wasnt a Berseker he could probably even have chances to avoid the blast.He doesnt only have Eternal arts mastership and protection of the fairies but he also knows Arturia. Enkidu was partially in GoB for Rider, but I'm pretty sure it was completely outside when he used it on Heracles in UBW. Anyways, Saber doesn't have to stay still while using Avalon (otherwise, how would Avalon have helped against Gil? She would've had to stay put and wait until he was done Ea-blasting... which is not what happened), so it's possible that she could move out of self-destruct range. Out of curiosity, how many Excaliblasts (of the power necessary to kill Lancelot) can she use while at full mana? Two or three maybe? Actually, if she's being strategic, she doesn't even need to go that far. She can use half-powered Excaliblasts since they'll be quicker, and connecting a single Excaliblast, even if it's not at full power, will give her a huge advantage for the rest of the battle. I don't think Avalon would take that much mana to use since it's a Conceptual Weapon that has a physical form, unlike Rho Aias for instance which has to be sustained through projection. So in addition to helping her charge her laser, Avalon could be used tactically as a shield to deflect her opponent's stronger attacks to put her in a better position to strike back. An obvious example would be if Lancelot tries to Arondight-blast her (lol idk if that even exists). |
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| This whole thread is only debating who is the strongest in servant form right, not the heroes original legends? Because CG EMIYA is by far the strongest hero. Actually, can anyone explain to me why servant EMIYA is not even close to as strong as CG EMIYA? Does Archer only contain his abilities from before he was a CG? |
EOTW said: This whole thread is only debating who is the strongest in servant form right, not the heroes original legends? Because CG EMIYA is by far the strongest hero. Actually, can anyone explain to me why servant EMIYA is not even close to as strong as CG EMIYA? Does Archer only contain his abilities from before he was a CG? This is from stuff that was on this thread a while ago, so the source is a bit shaky, but anyways... Emiya as a Counter Guardian would mean that he is summoned/contracted by Alaya, which would make him more powerful than if he were a Servant with some magus as a Master. Being stronger as a Counter Guardian has less to do with his own innate abilities, and yes, we are only talking about Servants in Servant form. |
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ataraxial said: EOTW said: This whole thread is only debating who is the strongest in servant form right, not the heroes original legends? Because CG EMIYA is by far the strongest hero. Actually, can anyone explain to me why servant EMIYA is not even close to as strong as CG EMIYA? Does Archer only contain his abilities from before he was a CG? This is from stuff that was on this thread a while ago, so the source is a bit shaky, but anyways... Emiya as a Counter Guardian would mean that he is summoned/contracted by Alaya, which would make him more powerful than if he were a Servant with some magus as a Master. Being stronger as a Counter Guardian has less to do with his own innate abilities, and yes, we are only talking about Servants in Servant form. But wasn't being a counter guardian the thing that put him on the throne of heroes in the first place to be summoned as a servant? Shouldn't the vessel fill with CG EMIYA? Or is counter guardian actually a vessel itself? Damn, just where the hell was all this CG stuff even explained? |
EOTW said: ataraxial said: EOTW said: This whole thread is only debating who is the strongest in servant form right, not the heroes original legends? Because CG EMIYA is by far the strongest hero. Actually, can anyone explain to me why servant EMIYA is not even close to as strong as CG EMIYA? Does Archer only contain his abilities from before he was a CG? This is from stuff that was on this thread a while ago, so the source is a bit shaky, but anyways... Emiya as a Counter Guardian would mean that he is summoned/contracted by Alaya, which would make him more powerful than if he were a Servant with some magus as a Master. Being stronger as a Counter Guardian has less to do with his own innate abilities, and yes, we are only talking about Servants in Servant form. But wasn't being a counter guardian the thing that put him on the throne of heroes in the first place to be summoned as a servant? Shouldn't the vessel fill with CG EMIYA? Or is counter guardian actually a vessel itself? Damn, just where the hell was all this CG stuff even explained? Honestly, I only have semi-educated guesses about this whole thing. What kind of powers does he actually have as a Counter Guardian? My understanding is that he is so strong as a Counter Guardian because he has Alaya as his Master. While he is still technically a "Counter Guardian" as a summoned Servant, he no longer has the same connection to Alaya which is why he is weaker. His strength as a Counter Guardian doesn't have to do with any changes to him as a person but rather from the contract itself that he makes with Alaya (which doesn't help him if he is a Servant). |
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| Having Alaya as his Whip Master means Alaya provides him with more than enough power to slaughter whatever enemy he needs to kill. According to Nasu, Primate Murder, one of the strongest anti-human monsters in the Nasuverse, would require several Counter Guardians to contain which was meant both as an example of how strong the number one Dead Apostle Ancestor is but also as to how strong Counter Guardians are supposed to be. I think Archer explains it in UBW. Counter Guardians are given enough strenght to kill everything they face, in theory, after all they are being powered by the World. If you aren't a Counter Guardian you can't even be summoned from the damned throne to begin with (unless you cheat by putting them into preconstructed vessels aka Servant Classes). Servants are just watered down versions of the Heroic Spirits in terms of skills and mana. Their egos are intact but their power is not quite what their legendary counterparts had. |
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Leon-Gun said: Having Alaya as his Whip Master means Alaya provides him with more than enough power to slaughter whatever enemy he needs to kill. According to Nasu, Primate Murder, one of the strongest anti-human monsters in the Nasuverse, would require several Counter Guardians to contain which was meant both as an example of how strong the number one Dead Apostle Ancestor is but also as to how strong Counter Guardians are supposed to be. I think Archer explains it in UBW. Counter Guardians are given enough strenght to kill everything they face, in theory, after all they are being powered by the World. If you aren't a Counter Guardian you can't even be summoned from the damned throne to begin with (unless you cheat by putting them into preconstructed vessels aka Servant Classes). Servants are just watered down versions of the Heroic Spirits in terms of skills and mana. Their egos are intact but their power is not quite what their legendary counterparts had. Yep, that makes sense. Any thoughts on the Avalon discussion? |
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ataraxial said: ssjokg said: I believe that Servants can use multiple NPs.The problem is the Mana consumption. Gil uses Vimana AND GoB together.Enkidu has part of it still inside GoB so itdoesnt count as a second. Back to Lancelot vs Saber. Rin Saber disappeared after using Excalibur.Even thought there were some reasons behind that Rin just couldnt keep her in the world anymore.<-Forget you ever read that.Now imagine Saber using Avalon.That means that her opponent IS attacking her.In this case Lancelot is right in front of her.After using so much mana for sustaining Avalon AND charging Excalibur, even IF she was still able to maintain her physical form,releasing the blast right in front of her(whenever Lancelot stopped attacking that is) would kill her along with him.IF Saber Alter had Avalon it may have been different but who knows.For all we know Avalon may return her to normal Saber and possible losing the connection with Sakura. If Lancelot wasnt a Berseker he could probably even have chances to avoid the blast.He doesnt only have Eternal arts mastership and protection of the fairies but he also knows Arturia. Enkidu was partially in GoB for Rider, but I'm pretty sure it was completely outside when he used it on Heracles in UBW. Anyways, Saber doesn't have to stay still while using Avalon (otherwise, how would Avalon have helped against Gil? She would've had to stay put and wait until he was done Ea-blasting... which is not what happened), so it's possible that she could move out of self-destruct range. Out of curiosity, how many Excaliblasts (of the power necessary to kill Lancelot) can she use while at full mana? Two or three maybe? Actually, if she's being strategic, she doesn't even need to go that far. She can use half-powered Excaliblasts since they'll be quicker, and connecting a single Excaliblast, even if it's not at full power, will give her a huge advantage for the rest of the battle. I don't think Avalon would take that much mana to use since it's a Conceptual Weapon that has a physical form, unlike Rho Aias for instance which has to be sustained through projection. So in addition to helping her charge her laser, Avalon could be used tactically as a shield to deflect her opponent's stronger attacks to put her in a better position to strike back. An obvious example would be if Lancelot tries to Arondight-blast her (lol idk if that even exists). Enkidu was shot from GOB in his fight with Hercules. Saber got out of Avalon while Gil was still charging Ea. 1 Excaliblast is enough to kill Lancelot and it cannot be dodged because it travels at light speed. But Lancelot is going to wreck her before she has a chance to pull it unless she is Alter. Avalon is on the level of magic so I'm pretty sure it's gonna use a lot of mana. I think Juusan meant that based on the fact that circuits are shown to be able to process only one type of magecraft at a time therefore NPs should work on a similar basis. Enkidu is a passive effect NP BTW. EOTW said: This whole thread is only debating who is the strongest in servant form right, not the heroes original legends? Because CG EMIYA is by far the strongest hero. Actually, can anyone explain to me why servant EMIYA is not even close to as strong as CG EMIYA? Does Archer only contain his abilities from before he was a CG? Counter Guardians are pretty much glass canons. They are strong because they got a ton of prana to do whatever they want but they have shitty durability and their abilities aren't that much different. Archer being in CG mode vs servant mode just means he can spam Caladbolg II and Hruntings without caring about consumptions. |
BloodRequiemJun 27, 2012 12:42 AM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| Hmm, I dunno about the assertion they are glass cannons. It all depends on the task they've been send out to do. Besides, I did mention, CG EMIYA will be a complete EMIYA with no class restrictions. It's a little more than just being a question of "fuel". The Servant system is, after all, just a series of 7 pre-constructed vessels with limited capacity. The VN explains you painstakingly well that "even for the Holy Grail the act of summoning 7 Heroic Spirits is too much". So, the Grail creates 7 vessels, with limited capacity and abilities, and the intact egos of the Heroic Spirits are thus placed on this limited classes, with all the restrictions this imply (with the easiest one to see being the Berserker class' Mad Enhancement making the Heroic Spirit "mad"). |
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BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: ssjokg said: I believe that Servants can use multiple NPs.The problem is the Mana consumption. Gil uses Vimana AND GoB together.Enkidu has part of it still inside GoB so itdoesnt count as a second. Back to Lancelot vs Saber. Rin Saber disappeared after using Excalibur.Even thought there were some reasons behind that Rin just couldnt keep her in the world anymore.<-Forget you ever read that.Now imagine Saber using Avalon.That means that her opponent IS attacking her.In this case Lancelot is right in front of her.After using so much mana for sustaining Avalon AND charging Excalibur, even IF she was still able to maintain her physical form,releasing the blast right in front of her(whenever Lancelot stopped attacking that is) would kill her along with him.IF Saber Alter had Avalon it may have been different but who knows.For all we know Avalon may return her to normal Saber and possible losing the connection with Sakura. If Lancelot wasnt a Berseker he could probably even have chances to avoid the blast.He doesnt only have Eternal arts mastership and protection of the fairies but he also knows Arturia. Enkidu was partially in GoB for Rider, but I'm pretty sure it was completely outside when he used it on Heracles in UBW. Anyways, Saber doesn't have to stay still while using Avalon (otherwise, how would Avalon have helped against Gil? She would've had to stay put and wait until he was done Ea-blasting... which is not what happened), so it's possible that she could move out of self-destruct range. Out of curiosity, how many Excaliblasts (of the power necessary to kill Lancelot) can she use while at full mana? Two or three maybe? Actually, if she's being strategic, she doesn't even need to go that far. She can use half-powered Excaliblasts since they'll be quicker, and connecting a single Excaliblast, even if it's not at full power, will give her a huge advantage for the rest of the battle. I don't think Avalon would take that much mana to use since it's a Conceptual Weapon that has a physical form, unlike Rho Aias for instance which has to be sustained through projection. So in addition to helping her charge her laser, Avalon could be used tactically as a shield to deflect her opponent's stronger attacks to put her in a better position to strike back. An obvious example would be if Lancelot tries to Arondight-blast her (lol idk if that even exists). Enkidu was shot from GOB in his fight with Hercules. Saber got out of Avalon while Gil was still charging Ea. 1 Excaliblast is enough to kill Lancelot and it cannot be dodged because it travels at light speed. But Lancelot is going to wreck her before she has a chance to pull it unless she is Alter. Avalon is on the level of magic so I'm pretty sure it's gonna use a lot of mana. I think Juusan meant that based on the fact that circuits are shown to be able to process only one type of magecraft at a time therefore NPs should work on a similar basis. Enkidu is a passive effect NP BTW. I don't think mana consumption depends whether or not it's on the level of magic. How much mana it consumes is simply dependent on how efficient it is, and it's magic-level-status could very well simply mean that it actually has high efficiency. Compared to Excalibur, which is mentioned an inordinately large amount of times to be a huge mana drain, Avalon is much easier to use since it's never mentioned to need to take a lot of mana at all. Heck, Shirou even projected it without much trouble (considering how painful and difficult it is to project Rho Aias, that must mean that Avalon in physical form - without even having to project it - is quite usable as a tactical shield.) Anyways, as for the Ea charging thing, what are you talking about? At the end of Fate, she defended against his Ea-blast with Avalon, and then Excaliblasted him. In order to do that, she must have been able to move out of his Ea-blast while in Avalon - if she exited Avalon before being able to move, she would have been turned into stardust. Thus, she can definitely move while defended by Avalon. |
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| @ataraxial She used Excalibur to make some space within the Ea blast and that's how she got closer. Then she had used Avalon. When she exited Avalon there was no blast coming out of Ea it was just spinning and Gil couldn't move. |
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| "And like that. With Ea straight ahead of her, her noble phantasm is activated" Then after a bunch of narrations "Gilgamesh sees the death running up his spine. But he wont make it. The raised Ea will not stop turning, and Gilgamesh cannot manage to jump back." Makes you wonder why he didn't just GOB her while she was charging at him...hmm...probably because he can't use 2 NPs at once. Leon-Gun said: Hmm, I dunno about the assertion they are glass cannons. It all depends on the task they've been send out to do. Besides, I did mention, CG EMIYA will be a complete EMIYA with no class restrictions. It's a little more than just being a question of "fuel". The Servant system is, after all, just a series of 7 pre-constructed vessels with limited capacity. The VN explains you painstakingly well that "even for the Holy Grail the act of summoning 7 Heroic Spirits is too much". So, the Grail creates 7 vessels, with limited capacity and abilities, and the intact egos of the Heroic Spirits are thus placed on this limited classes, with all the restrictions this imply (with the easiest one to see being the Berserker class' Mad Enhancement making the Heroic Spirit "mad"). But he will still be limited to the abilities he has like projection and UBW. And he did start out as a human so...durability wise hes not going to reach something like Primate Murder. |
BloodRequiemJun 27, 2012 12:10 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: ssjokg said: I believe that Servants can use multiple NPs.The problem is the Mana consumption. Gil uses Vimana AND GoB together.Enkidu has part of it still inside GoB so itdoesnt count as a second. Back to Lancelot vs Saber. Rin Saber disappeared after using Excalibur.Even thought there were some reasons behind that Rin just couldnt keep her in the world anymore.<-Forget you ever read that.Now imagine Saber using Avalon.That means that her opponent IS attacking her.In this case Lancelot is right in front of her.After using so much mana for sustaining Avalon AND charging Excalibur, even IF she was still able to maintain her physical form,releasing the blast right in front of her(whenever Lancelot stopped attacking that is) would kill her along with him.IF Saber Alter had Avalon it may have been different but who knows.For all we know Avalon may return her to normal Saber and possible losing the connection with Sakura. If Lancelot wasnt a Berseker he could probably even have chances to avoid the blast.He doesnt only have Eternal arts mastership and protection of the fairies but he also knows Arturia. Enkidu was partially in GoB for Rider, but I'm pretty sure it was completely outside when he used it on Heracles in UBW. Anyways, Saber doesn't have to stay still while using Avalon (otherwise, how would Avalon have helped against Gil? She would've had to stay put and wait until he was done Ea-blasting... which is not what happened), so it's possible that she could move out of self-destruct range. Out of curiosity, how many Excaliblasts (of the power necessary to kill Lancelot) can she use while at full mana? Two or three maybe? Actually, if she's being strategic, she doesn't even need to go that far. She can use half-powered Excaliblasts since they'll be quicker, and connecting a single Excaliblast, even if it's not at full power, will give her a huge advantage for the rest of the battle. I don't think Avalon would take that much mana to use since it's a Conceptual Weapon that has a physical form, unlike Rho Aias for instance which has to be sustained through projection. So in addition to helping her charge her laser, Avalon could be used tactically as a shield to deflect her opponent's stronger attacks to put her in a better position to strike back. An obvious example would be if Lancelot tries to Arondight-blast her (lol idk if that even exists). Enkidu was shot from GOB in his fight with Hercules. Saber got out of Avalon while Gil was still charging Ea. 1 Excaliblast is enough to kill Lancelot and it cannot be dodged because it travels at light speed. But Lancelot is going to wreck her before she has a chance to pull it unless she is Alter. Avalon is on the level of magic so I'm pretty sure it's gonna use a lot of mana. I dont think that any servant would need more than 1 blast unless he has more hax abilities than Gil and EMIYA. Rider was planing to defeat Saber by using that small opening before the attack.That failed.But he dodged it while carrying Waver and he has rank D agility while Lancelot has A+ plus EAM and POF |
| How come in UBW, Gil doesn't use Endiku on Shirou? And why did the Grail appear on Gil in UBW? Is it because he's human? But Gil said 'servants can't be used as vessels'. I thought he's no longer a servant at that point... |
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Kurogashi said: How come in UBW, Gil doesn't use Endiku on Shirou? Because you know, he would have won if he did that and bad guys aren't supposed to win, unless it is a prequel. |
Kurogashi said: He's not a Mage either. Technically he's no "Servant" but he's still a Heroic Spirit, even if he's mortal now. That said, moot point because he's not compatible as a vessel. Even Shinji, who at least had some traces of mage blood in him just turned into a bloody mess of uglyness. In Stay Night the only ones Kirei deemed appropiate as vessels were...How come in UBW, Gil doesn't use Endiku on Shirou? And why did the Grail appear on Gil in UBW? Is it because he's human? But Gil said 'servants can't be used as vessels'. I thought he's no longer a servant at that point... Trenerka said: Technically Enkidu is just a regular chain when used on mortals so it's possible that Shirou could have strike it down with his, I dunno, thousands of swords that he had stored inside Unlimited Blade Works. Heck, Herakles broke it and he's supposed to be A in Divinity, which means the chains were supposed to be unbreakable for him.Kurogashi said: How come in UBW, Gil doesn't use Endiku on Shirou? Because you know, he would have won if he did that and bad guys aren't supposed to win, unless it is a prequel. |
Leon-GunJun 27, 2012 5:04 PM
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Trenerka said: Kurogashi said: How come in UBW, Gil doesn't use Endiku on Shirou? Because you know, he would have won if he did that and bad guys aren't supposed to win, unless it is a prequel. The same reason he didnt try to use Ea srsly in the beginning.When he finally did try to use them shit happened.His arm was chopped off,then before picking Ea again and massacre Shirou the grail swallowed him up.Then after using Enkidu to Shirou ,Archer shot an arrow to his head.So much for A ranked Luck.In that 1out of 100 fights that Shirou can defeat Gil,Gil's Luck was worse than Lancer's. |
| Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku |
EOTW said: Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku Perfect now I cant say anything since I dont know any Notes characters yet. But I think Kohaku and Hisui are stronger than Shinji and Ryuunosuke .I cant remember Keta and Tomoe And for Vimana we only know it has nukes inside it.Whether it can fire them instantly or not we dont know.And who knows inside UBW Archer could bring it down with spam since it was destroyed by D rank flares in FZ... |
ssjokg said: EOTW said: Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku Perfect now I cant say anything since I dont know any Notes characters yet. But I think Kohaku and Hisui are stronger than Shinji and Ryuunosuke .I cant remember Keta and Tomoe And for Vimana we only know it has nukes inside it.Whether it can fire them instantly or not we dont know.And who knows inside UBW Archer could bring it down with spam since it was destroyed by D rank flares in FZ... Yeah, to tell you the truth I think all this powerlevel discussion is kinda empty. Don't get me wrong it's pretty fun to discuss, but it's not all black and white. For example matchups are almost never discussed. For example scissors beats paper, but losses to rock, which can beat scissors. I'm sure there are situations like this in the nasuverse. Also, certain details (like the ones you pointed out) are left out which make this almost impossible to get a definite answer. Basically these discussions are just projecting and estimating because who knows maybe EMIYA has an extremely powerful NP in his UBW that we don't know about. But I guess if it was all black and white there would be nothing to discuss huh? |
EOTW said: Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku Kanata> ORT.... Lancelot F-15 > Gilgamesh Vimana wut? Gilles > Archer? and Optimal Gilles > Medea? Plus Dark Sakura should be WAYYYYY lower in terms of powerlevels, she's only good against servants And lol Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya=Kariya and UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett and GODO shouldn't be that high either...hes just a guy with a gun... I want to call bs... |
BloodRequiemJun 27, 2012 6:07 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
EOTW said: ssjokg said: EOTW said: Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku Perfect now I cant say anything since I dont know any Notes characters yet. But I think Kohaku and Hisui are stronger than Shinji and Ryuunosuke .I cant remember Keta and Tomoe And for Vimana we only know it has nukes inside it.Whether it can fire them instantly or not we dont know.And who knows inside UBW Archer could bring it down with spam since it was destroyed by D rank flares in FZ... Yeah, to tell you the truth I think all this powerlevel discussion is kinda empty. Don't get me wrong it's pretty fun to discuss, but it's not all black and white. For example matchups are almost never discussed. For example scissors beats paper, but losses to rock, which can beat scissors. I'm sure there are situations like this in the nasuverse. Also, certain details (like the ones you pointed out) are left out which make this almost impossible to get a definite answer. Basically these discussions are just projecting and estimating because who knows maybe EMIYA has an extremely powerful NP in his UBW that we don't know about. But I guess if it was all black and white there would be nothing to discuss huh? Well I wouldnt have come in this thread if I didnt find it fun right? BloodRequiem said: Kanata> ORT.... Lancelot F-15 > Gilgamesh Vimana wut? Plus Dark Sakura should be WAYYYYY lower in terms of powerlevels, she's only good against servants And lol Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya=Kariya and UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett I want to call bs... isnt Bazett WAAAAAY more powerful than ANY Shirou,Waver,Kariya(duh)?Bazett is more powerfull than many chars that are higher than her in this list.And all Shiki(Nanaya,Ryougi,Tohno) can defeat any Shirou. |
ssjokg said: EOTW said: ssjokg said: EOTW said: Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku Perfect now I cant say anything since I dont know any Notes characters yet. But I think Kohaku and Hisui are stronger than Shinji and Ryuunosuke .I cant remember Keta and Tomoe And for Vimana we only know it has nukes inside it.Whether it can fire them instantly or not we dont know.And who knows inside UBW Archer could bring it down with spam since it was destroyed by D rank flares in FZ... Yeah, to tell you the truth I think all this powerlevel discussion is kinda empty. Don't get me wrong it's pretty fun to discuss, but it's not all black and white. For example matchups are almost never discussed. For example scissors beats paper, but losses to rock, which can beat scissors. I'm sure there are situations like this in the nasuverse. Also, certain details (like the ones you pointed out) are left out which make this almost impossible to get a definite answer. Basically these discussions are just projecting and estimating because who knows maybe EMIYA has an extremely powerful NP in his UBW that we don't know about. But I guess if it was all black and white there would be nothing to discuss huh? Well I wouldnt have come in this thread if I didnt find it fun right? BloodRequiem said: Kanata> ORT.... Lancelot F-15 > Gilgamesh Vimana wut? Plus Dark Sakura should be WAYYYYY lower in terms of powerlevels, she's only good against servants And lol Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya=Kariya and UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett I want to call bs... isnt Bazett WAAAAAY more powerful than ANY Shirou,Waver,Kariya(duh)?Bazett is more powerfull than many chars that are higher than her in this list.And all Shiki(Nanaya,Ryougi,Tohno) can defeat any Shirou. thats why i said its bs and Nanaya depends on whether or not he is the Tsukihime version or Melty Blood version because the Melty Blood one is a Tatari so it doesn't have the eyes. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: ssjokg said: EOTW said: ssjokg said: EOTW said: Well I found this, not sure if this is anything official or just some fan projections, but it says Gil with vimana is the second strongest fate character behind angra mainyu (unless the "type" characters somehow are connected). What do you guys think BS or does this actually look legit? Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Arcueid (Full power) > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa < Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsuhu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku Perfect now I cant say anything since I dont know any Notes characters yet. But I think Kohaku and Hisui are stronger than Shinji and Ryuunosuke .I cant remember Keta and Tomoe And for Vimana we only know it has nukes inside it.Whether it can fire them instantly or not we dont know.And who knows inside UBW Archer could bring it down with spam since it was destroyed by D rank flares in FZ... Yeah, to tell you the truth I think all this powerlevel discussion is kinda empty. Don't get me wrong it's pretty fun to discuss, but it's not all black and white. For example matchups are almost never discussed. For example scissors beats paper, but losses to rock, which can beat scissors. I'm sure there are situations like this in the nasuverse. Also, certain details (like the ones you pointed out) are left out which make this almost impossible to get a definite answer. Basically these discussions are just projecting and estimating because who knows maybe EMIYA has an extremely powerful NP in his UBW that we don't know about. But I guess if it was all black and white there would be nothing to discuss huh? Well I wouldnt have come in this thread if I didnt find it fun right? BloodRequiem said: Kanata> ORT.... Lancelot F-15 > Gilgamesh Vimana wut? Plus Dark Sakura should be WAYYYYY lower in terms of powerlevels, she's only good against servants And lol Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya=Kariya and UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett I want to call bs... isnt Bazett WAAAAAY more powerful than ANY Shirou,Waver,Kariya(duh)?Bazett is more powerfull than many chars that are higher than her in this list.And all Shiki(Nanaya,Ryougi,Tohno) can defeat any Shirou. thats why i said its bs I know. I never read(Except for the end) the list since as I said I dont know many of them.Reading your comment made me feel the same so I had to post something. |
| Does Emiya Archer still have Avalon within him? :O |
|
Kurogashi said: Does Emiya Archer still have Avalon within him? :O No. He doesn't have a contract with Saber anymore so he has no image to project it and he has no mana to use it. Same reason he doesn't have Caliburn. |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: "And like that. With Ea straight ahead of her, her noble phantasm is activated" Then after a bunch of narrations "Gilgamesh sees the death running up his spine. But he wont make it. The raised Ea will not stop turning, and Gilgamesh cannot manage to jump back." Makes you wonder why he didn't just GOB her while she was charging at him...hmm...probably because he can't use 2 NPs at once. The bolded part implies that Ea is still blasting away while Saber is protected by Avalon. It doesn't quite say exactly how she maneuvered, but the point is that she was able to get out of the blast during/after using Avalon, which means that she would not be confined to using Excaliblast at point-blank range on Lancelot. And even if she had to use Excalibur at point-blank range, she was clearly able (while having already taken an Ea to the knee) to do it against Gil, so there's no reason to think that she would ever end up blowing herself up. GoB doesn't open instantaneously. And the reason why he didn't already have GoB active is because he was busy putting everything he had into Enuma Elish (he's using GoB to power it up directly). To go off in a different direction, not being able to use 2 NPs at the same time would be more problematic for Gil. For instance, what is he supposed to do against Archer Emiya? |
|
| Does Shirou like Rin or Saber ...or both in UBW? Cause Rin and him seems pretty lovey dovey in this epilogue in front of Saber... |
|
Kurogashi said: Does Shirou like Rin or Saber ...or both in UBW? Cause Rin and him seems pretty lovey dovey in this epilogue in front of Saber... FSN has 3 routes. In the Fate route he loves Saber In the UBW route he loves Rin In the HF route he loves Sakura. And I guess you can say Rin likes both Shirou and Saber since she has her harem in the UBW good end. @ataraxial Zero berserker would be able to move though. It only worked on Gil because he was unable to move. |
Ragna92Jun 27, 2012 7:15 PM
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| Well, I'm only half way through tsukihime (VN) right now and am only familiar with the fate universe so, is this list a troll or something? |
Ragna92 said: Actually, it's kinda very effing ambiguous in UBW, to the point Rin loves both Archer and Shirou (as different individuals at that), and Shirou showed loved for both Rin and Saber (which is probably what inspires the harem end). So really, it's way too open because the route is less about love and more about Shirou.Kurogashi said: Does Shirou like Rin or Saber ...or both in UBW? Cause Rin and him seems pretty lovey dovey in this epilogue in front of Saber... FSN has 3 routes. In the Fate route he loves Saber In the UBW route he loves Rin In the HF route he loves Sakura. And I guess you can say Rin likes both Shirou and Saber since she has her harem in the UBW good end. @ataraxial Zero berserker would be able to move though. It only worked on Gil because he was unable to move. |
|
Leon-Gun said: Ragna92 said: Actually, it's kinda very effing ambiguous in UBW, to the point Rin loves both Archer and Shirou (as different individuals at that), and Shirou showed loved for both Rin and Saber (which is probably what inspires the harem end). So really, it's way too open because the route is less about love and more about Shirou.Kurogashi said: Does Shirou like Rin or Saber ...or both in UBW? Cause Rin and him seems pretty lovey dovey in this epilogue in front of Saber... FSN has 3 routes. In the Fate route he loves Saber In the UBW route he loves Rin In the HF route he loves Sakura. And I guess you can say Rin likes both Shirou and Saber since she has her harem in the UBW good end. @ataraxial Zero berserker would be able to move though. It only worked on Gil because he was unable to move. Huh? It wasn't open at all. It's pretty clear in the UBW true end. The UBW good end was fan service.(And it was Rin's harem ending, I wonder if it means threesomes) |
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Ragna92 said: I wonder if it means threesomes) Kind of like Boy meets girl & girl scene? |
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| http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/index.php?v=24 Why the hell is there a dragon in this scene? LMAO I thought he, Rin and Saber just had a threesome... Deen's magic? Going over parts of the novel on the site above, I stumped upon this (Day 14 - Temporary Dream): Quote: She deep throats it for an instant and presses the tip. "King Arthur is a woman of many talents." LOL! Nasu isn't a very good erotic story teller... haha |
KurogashiJun 27, 2012 8:55 PM
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Kurogashi said: Nasu was basically just getting the obligatory sex scenes over and done with. He's not a hentai writer by nature.http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/index.php?v=24 Why the hell is there a dragon in this scene? LMAO I thought he, Rin and Saber just had a threesome... Deen's magic? Going over parts of the novel on the site above, I stumped upon this (Day 14 - Temporary Dream): Quote: She deep throats it for an instant and presses the tip. "King Arthur is a woman of many talents." LOL! Nasu isn't a very good erotic story teller... haha |
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| Gilgamesh. He just toys with most opponents. Should be able to take out anyone if he tried. |
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