Enjolras1830 said: That is bad business always show your best Indeed. Using "it's a comedy show" or "it's a kids show" as a reason why the art is bad, the writing sucks, or the direction is lazy is just making excuses and shows no effort on the staff's part. It's just another point how animation isn't taken seriously in the US. Not to mention the over reliance on Adobe Flash and CGI television shows, which just look terrible, because you can churn out stuff quick and cheap like some assembly line. Even with the low budgets anime get, they always look leagues better and have a lot more effort put into them. My rule of thumb: if the creators didn't put any effort into making the show, why should I put any effort into watching it? Seems like a fair trade. All the Japanese blogs I do visit more or less give off the impression with how serious they take animation, they probably wouldn't be impressed by these shows. It's bad enough when they make fun of the way anime is edited/handled in America, I can only imagine what they say about our actual cartoons which are even more neutered and restricted. |
TitanXLMay 17, 2012 5:36 PM
juken16 said: I feel we are getting off track of what i asked i asked how does the japanese public respond to anime influenced programs And many people answered you multiple times. Japan don't care. What more do you want? ChocoKewkies said: Maybe they got fed up with us and decided to copycat by producing Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt. Panty and Stocking was made as a parody of American animation because GAINAX said they have no idea how Americans can find that kind of humor, which is prevalent in a lot of American cartoons, funny. Basically it's a show you're supposed to watch with a textbar on the bottom of the screen that says "Americans actually find this kind of stuff funny". |
| They have so much anime and manga being produced there, i don't think they care much for american's adaptation of their own stuff. Marvel and DC material carry more influence with the japanese because these more unique to america, making it more of a new refreshing experience to them. |
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Armiga21 said: Ragix said: Do you even realize the contents of what you are saying? If you flipped on one of the cartoon stations in the West you would see they are nowhere in comparison to animes. The few that do are not even anime rip-offs, but like someone said had some influence in it. Thundercats for example, looks somewhat like an anime, but if you watch it doesn't even try to copy anime in the least. I'm sorry if we try to make our animations look better then the usual cartoons like Family Guy, Southpark, or Invader Zim, but that's just how it works. If western cartoons are trying to make better animations it will probably begin to look like anime, since anime is what top of the line animation looks like. It doesn't matter if they fail at it or not, they're still trying to rip off and be like anime. You're right though, shows like Thundercats, Avatar, and Teen Titans aren't really anything like anime outside use of generic chibis or some vague art style, but they still try. Especially when you have the creators of said shows gushing how much they love anime and want to make their own, like with Avatar, Teen Titans, Kappa Mikey, and all those other shows. Yes, but this is something common in everything. Not just anime and cartoons. Example, World of Warcraft, gameplay, ui, etc essentially influenced from games like Everquest and other MMORPGS, but made it better making it one of the biggest MMORPGs of our time. Other variations, sodas. All essentially soda, but the different brands have a bit of a twist on it for different taste. Everything around you that is similar, yet different has had some sort of influence from something else. LoL influenced from Dota, and even politics is influenced by something else! I'm not saying your in the wrong here, I mean sure like the cartoons you have stated the makers loved anime; however, they made the show in their own way. Anime influenced the idea of how they wanted to portray the shows, but everything else such as story, and character isn't just some carbon copy of an anime out there. The art and animation yes to a degree but everything else not so much. They aren't trying to rip-off anime, but make something different. Ripping off anime would be like someone literally taking the story, art, etc. of let's say ToraDora! and westernize it, put it out on Western TV, and saying it's a new show! These shows are simply influenced by anime, but they aren't actually ripping off anime. Like I said I'm not trying to put you in the wrong here, but the term "ripping off" is a bit to strong for some of these shows. I mean their is no way in hell I would've watched the Dead Space, or Dante Inferno animated movie unless they actually looked like how they did(Somewhat anime stye) because with stories as serious as those in cartoon form would just be a joke! |
Touch me, you filthy casual~ |
| The animated Spawn series that ran on HBO back in the late 90s will always be a favorite of mine. Shame it got cancelled so soon, but it's supposedly making a comeback. |
Armiga21 said: Mami_Tomoe said: NicoleB said: But I've never seen a good western cartoon Watch Batman the animated series. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5nB2OJnCko Why would they watch that when they have anime? I think that's the main point people should ask themselves when it comes to Japan and western anime-wannabe toons. Why watch imitations when you have the originals? They don't even like Batman. The live-action Nolan movies were critically hated. I doubt an American kid's cartoon would do any better. Jigero said: probably the same way we react to cartoon influence anime....."who gives a fuck?' Like what? You act like the dozens of anime-rip offs the west make is matched by Japan doing the same thing, when they don't. Japan doesn't do that. The west is the one making all those anime rip offs, Japan just continues making their anime like it's any other day. That's a pretty poor comparison. Yea Japan never copies America ever...    you seriously are a delusional weaboo |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| You're pretty unrealistic if you think a country has xenophobic and arrogant as Japan simply goes "who gives a fuck" when it comes to an art form they acknowledge as part of their cultural identity. It's nice that you don't care but don't project that on a nation of people whose history and current standings say otherwise. The Japanese don't value anime-wannabes or anime-like cartoons remotely as high as the people in the countries that make those kind of shows. |
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Armiga21 said: I don't know what's sadder, the fact you're trying to argue Kaiba is a Cartoon Wannabe (with no source, at that, just pulling it out of your butt), which only shows you have no idea about Masaaki Yuasa or his history and work, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Yuasa Yuasa selected and commented on some examples of animated works that have been an influence on his. These were a film by Tex Avery, another by Ladislas Starevich, extracts from Yellow Submarine, Fantastic Planet, The Fox and the Hound, The Wrong Trousers, a Batman pilot from Lightbox Animation, Seriously you are so delusional it's not even funny. or the fact you think using one show which is a self-admitted parody by one studio means the entire nation of Japan makes a lot of Cartoon Wannabes just like the west does on a regular basis. there are way more then one, I can compile an entire list for you if you like. Anime started by being directly influenced by Disney and other western animation, the entire anime industry started as a knock off of western animation. But keep trying to paint your glorious Nippon as a pure and noble beast that is with out fault. Someone's delusional here, alright. It's kind of sad you're this obsessed with trying to promote and defend America when everyone else with half a brain can see otherwise. Yes clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about, I've only been a long time fan of animation in general and studied it, no matter where it came from. but because you watched a cartoon one time and didn't like it, that makes the entire American animation scene stupid, immature and only steals. I'm only defending western animation because some one has to defend it from biased ignorant weaboos who talk out of their ass. |
JigeroMay 23, 2012 11:52 AM
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
Armiga21 said: Shows like Totally Spies don't do that though, they make up some 'anime art style' and slap it on for the sole hopes of "Anime is big, so we want to be big too, afterall, art is the only thing that matters and separates anime from American cartoons"' To compare those kinds of people to Tezuka is an insult. Since this debate is happening here and now I might as well ask. What's your opinion on artists/aspiring artists who are influenced by mangaka(s) but have their own distinct style but scarcely borrowing a few elements? (and not having the motive of "ripping off" due to increase of popularity) Even if you think they aren't ripping anyone off, would you still hold resentment towards them? This is an honest question and I hold no intent to attack you. |
GloriousHawkMay 23, 2012 1:31 PM
TitanXL said: To put it simply, they don't. You'd be lucky to find more than a handful of people who even know what those shows are. When you have such a strong domestic animation, you have no real need for imported television cartoons. spongebob lilo and strich TMNT "Both new and old" danny fhantom "Megumi Hayashibara and Daisuke Namikawa act in it " and more are popylar in japan spongebob ad japan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11quU3nqkVE |
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Armiga21 said: Jigero said: Anime started by being directly influenced by Disney and other western animation, the entire anime industry started as a knock off of western animation. This is how you know someone doesn't know what they're talking about is when they cite this without actually knowing the history behind it. The way Teen Titans, Avatar, and Totally Spies rips off anime is not like the way anime was created by Tezuka watching old cartoons. That is a different kind of influence, influence in the way a lot of shounen mangaka were influenced by Toriyama. Influence as in " I read Dragon Ball and wanted to create my own series because once I read it I knew I wanted to be a mangaka", not influence as in 'I read it and wow, I'm going to steal Goku and Piccolo and Bulma and rework it for myself only now they're called Aang and Katara". Tezuka was influenced by old cartoons in the sense that animation was a new thing and when he saw what you could do with animation, he did his manga and anime. And if you actually knew what you're talking about you would realize that Totally Spies, Teen Titans or Avatar really have nothing to do with anime other then a vague art style. But anime has been directly influenced by western animation before, in alot more sense then just art styles.  This one being the most famous. Which is why if you actually watch/read Tezuka's stuff, you'll find it's nothing like American animation. He was dealing with serious themes since day one, stuff American animation still to this day has never bothered to try to explore due to censorship. again you know nothing, it has nothing to do with censorship, heck Japans censorship laws are far more strict then America's. Mature animation is small in the west and mostly unknown but it does exist.  and before you say a scanner darkly isn't animated, just stop your self because only an idiot who doesn't know how rotoscoping works would think that. Tezuka was only influenced in the sense the west was the one who made animation noticeable, since we pioneered it. You may as well say all books rip off whoever the first guy to come up with the idea to put writing on paper and binding it together. Shows like Totally Spies don't do that though, they make up some 'anime art style' and slap it on for the sole hopes of "Anime is big, so we want to be big too, afterall, art is the only thing that matters and separates anime from American cartoons"' To compare those kinds of people to Tezuka is an insult. yea because Tezuka never did anything directly influenced by Disney did he...oh... oh wait...  |
JigeroMay 24, 2012 7:47 AM
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
Armiga21 said: Jigero, I have to wonder if you realize the irony of your examples. Big O was made by Sunrise, who also animated Batman the Animated Series for America. Any similarities between the two are because of that, the same studio made both. Jungle Taitei, well, do I need to explain how ironic it is you're saying that it ripped off Disney? Seriously? And yeah, using a live-action movie with a filter over it as your key example of 'serios American animation' just shows how much you're gasping at the straws to find examples. Use something else and maybe it'll have a point (not really, because one or two examples doesn't change the rule) Although you're completely right about Big O and Jungle Taitei, and this guy is probably a troll, you're wrong about A Scanner Darkly (the "live-action movie with a filter over it" part). Oh, and Waking Life (also from Linklater) is a better example. As much as I love PKD and the novel, I thought the adaptation was not as good as it could have been. |
Armiga21 said: Jigero, I have to wonder if you realize the irony of your examples. Big O was made by Sunrise, who also animated Batman the Animated Series for America. Any similarities between the two are because of that, the same studio made both. Sunrise did the inbetweens for batman the animated series, they had no creative control over it. Big O's art style was directly influenced by Bruce Tim's Art-style. But it's direct example of western animation influencing anime, even down to characters. Not just Art Style. Jungle Taitei, well, do I need to explain how ironic it is you're saying that it ripped off Disney? Seriously? let me guess your gonna try to pull the "Lion king ripped off Jungle Taitei" argument. Go for it it will be hilarious. And yeah, using a live-action movie with a filter over it as your key example of 'serios American animation' DING DING DING DING we have an idiot. Rotoscoping is far from simply putting a filter over some thing, not to mention alot of anime uses rotoscoping too. (just about every Shaft animation has rotoscoping in it which is kinda funny because that's the only time when they get any sort of fluid movement) Rotoscoping takes for more work then hand drawing some thing, or having a character stand still and flap his mouth up and down. just shows how much you're gasping at the straws to find examples. Use something else and maybe it'll have a point (not really, because one or two examples doesn't change the rule) Hurp derp your one or two examples don't matter, but because I listed 2 or 3 anime inspired cartoons it means all western animation sucks hurrr. Sorry but I have way more then 1 or 2 examples. Fritz the Cat Coonskin Heavy Traffic Wizards Fire and Ice American Pop Hey Good lookin' Heavy Metal Heavy Metal 2000 I married a Strange Person The Secret of NIMH I can keep going. Jungle Taitei itself is a good example of what children's cartoons in Japan were doing even as far back as the 50s. Jungle Taitei wasn't doing anything that Disney was doing in the 40's |
JigeroMay 24, 2012 9:03 PM
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
animedcfreak said: the truth is, that it depends on who watches anime influenced cartoons. There are ppl in Japan who do watch American shows, and even in other countries. and to the person that said that they hate Batman and other stuff, you're so wrong. There's Batman: Gotham Knight, and guess who drew the animation? JAPANESE PPL. Gotham Knight was a commission from DC. It only got made because DC wanted a 'Batman anime'. Using that as an example doesn't work. Same thing with the Marvel anime, Halo, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and all those other movies/shows. It doesn't count if America pays them to make them one. However, the live-action Batman movies were critically panned in Japan. In Japan, they view American superheroes as silly and goofy, and a guy dressed as a bat trying to be all grim-dark serious was laughable to them. Those movies took themselves way too seriously for their own good. |
TitanXLJun 5, 2012 7:02 PM
| i don't know how they would feel, but it is just an art style and if it is popular in the west and gets lot of exposure its not uncommon to see more things using that style... kind of like how when twilight got big vampire books are all you can find in the young adult section of a book store western animation still has a long way to go thought before it will likely get major recognition in japan. i don't like the debate between western animeation and japanese animation because even in the west, animation is considered niche thing when you reach a certain age (with the exception of parady/comedy shows like family guy, simpons and south park) where in japan animation isnt niche, its everywhere and made for every age and covers every genre so its apples and bananas, they arent comparable if americans animated as much and as variety as japan then compare the two, compare away but the majority of american audiences prefer to watch live action shows, battlestar galactica, dexter, game of thrones, merlin, dr who, gossip girl, true blood, sanctuary, star trek, weeds, etc etc etc |
| Whenever somebody mentions 'The Lion King is just a copy of Kimba!' they forget that Osamu wanted to adapt Bambi like they adapted Kimba in a way. Other than that, I've not met other Japanese people who like Western stuff, but I gotta admit I don't like Western TV either. It's all the same with romance being a focus with action and shooting and stuff. |
| This Armiga21 fella is being a MAJOR elitist. Enjolras1830 too. As a fan of animation it saddens me too see people disregarding works of animation worldwide with statements like "99% of western animation is ugly". Not everybody has to have eyes that cover 50% of their faces. Also when Japanese copy the west its cool but if its the other around it become plagiarism. WTF man. Also, Adventure Time>>>Anime. Deal With It.:3 TitanXL said: animedcfreak said: the truth is, that it depends on who watches anime influenced cartoons. There are ppl in Japan who do watch American shows, and even in other countries. and to the person that said that they hate Batman and other stuff, you're so wrong. There's Batman: Gotham Knight, and guess who drew the animation? JAPANESE PPL. However, the live-action Batman movies were critically panned in Japan. In Japan, they view American superheroes as silly and goofy, and a guy dressed as a bat trying to be all grim-dark serious was laughable to them. Those movies took themselves way too seriously for their own good. Wow. Western Superheroes are silly and goofy while Japan has limp-wristed pretty boys carrying swords larger than swords have any right to be, while complaining about their mommy issues and saving the world. That's totally not goofy |
| The Art of Eight |
dankickyou said: This Armiga21 fella is being a MAJOR elitist. Enjolras1830 too. As a fan of animation it saddens me too see people disregarding works of animation worldwide with statements like "99% of western animation is ugly". Not everybody has to have eyes that cover 50% of their faces. Also when Japanese copy the west its cool but if its the other around it become plagiarism. WTF man. Also, Adventure Time>>>Anime. Deal With It.:3 I don't know what's worse, you calling someone elitist and then making an elitist statement, or saying Adventure Time is actually good. Adventure Time has horrendous art, and saying it's ugly is perfectly understandable. Not liking western animation isn't 'elitist'. It's called standards. Stop trying to play the 'equal' card when the playing field is not equal. If I asked you for a reccomendation and said I love Detective Conan, what cartoon would you reccomend? Detective Conan is a children's cartoon about murder mysteries, by the way. Until you actually have shows that can match the anime poeple like, it's perfectly fair to dismiss western animation because nothing is being made they like. Anime is big because it encompasses genres and age groups American animation does not even touch. Are you really going to call people elitist because they don't like a cartoon for 8 year olds when they're probably in their 20s? After I grew up and discovered anime, I never went back and watched American animation, since it offered me nothing. American Animation isn't even that big in America. Does America have a parralel to One Piece or Sazaesan or Detective Conan in terms of popularity? Not really Wow. Western Superheroes are silly and goofy while Japan has limp-wristed pretty boys carrying swords larger than swords have any right to be, while complaining about their mommy issues and saving the world. That's totally not goofy What show are you even talking about with this statement? Insulting people and making sweeping generalizations just makes you look immature and uneducated, since it adds nothing to the discussion. |
TitanXLJun 6, 2012 12:33 PM
TitanXL said: dankickyou said: This Armiga21 fella is being a MAJOR elitist. Enjolras1830 too. As a fan of animation it saddens me too see people disregarding works of animation worldwide with statements like "99% of western animation is ugly". Not everybody has to have eyes that cover 50% of their faces. Also when Japanese copy the west its cool but if its the other around it become plagiarism. WTF man. Also, Adventure Time>>>Anime. Deal With It.:3 I don't know what's worse, you calling someone elitist and then making an elitist statement, or saying Adventure Time is actually good. Adventure Time has horrendous art, and saying it's ugly is perfectly understandable. Not liking western animation isn't 'elitist'. It's called standards. Stop trying to play the 'equal' card when the playing field is not equal. If I asked you for a reccomendation and said I love Detective Conan, what cartoon would you reccomend? Detective Conan is a children's cartoon about murder mysteries, by the way. Until you actually have shows that can match the anime poeple like, it's perfectly fair to dismiss western animation because nothing is being made they like. Anime is big because it encompasses genres and age groups American animation does not even touch. Are you really going to call people elitist because they don't like a cartoon for 8 year olds when they're probably in their 20s? After I grew up and discovered anime, I never went back and watched American animation, since it offered me nothing. American Animation isn't even that big in America. Does America have a parralel to One Piece or Sazaesan or Detective Conan in terms of popularity? Not really Wow. Western Superheroes are silly and goofy while Japan has limp-wristed pretty boys carrying swords larger than swords have any right to be, while complaining about their mommy issues and saving the world. That's totally not goofy What show are you even talking about with this statement? Insulting people and making sweeping generalizations just makes you look immature and uneducated, since it adds nothing to the discussion. Adventure Time>>>You. Deal With it. The art is great, its supposes to be a surreal magic/ post apocalyptic world where everything is fucked up, and it has some of the most hilarious/scary facial expressions ever. Of course, the>>> anime, was me trying to get a rise out of you guys. LOL Standards!.* Looks at Summer season preview, Full of moe bullshit and Eroge adaptions. NOPE*. Does America have a parallel to one piece? How about The Simpsons. What show am I talking about? How about every JRPG EVER (Especially later final fantasy)! How about Guilty Crown, Inuyasha, Eva(giant robots instead of swords),etc,etc. Emo pretty-boys is pretty much one of the main reasons people laugh at anime. |
| The Art of Eight |
Armiga21 said: dankickyou said: This Armiga21 fella is being a MAJOR elitist. Enjolras1830 too. Of course, the>>> anime, was me trying to get a rise out of you guys. LOL It certainly says something when both people who were arguing in favor of western animation full on admit to trolling. I guess since western animation is mainly for children, the fans will act as such. U mad, Bro? I love Adventure Time, and my >>>>>anime was an attempt at mocking your own generalizing statements like "cartoon are for kiddies", "anime is for superior people" etc. Again, I love animation in general, but seeing elitist attitudes, I can't help give a mocking jab here and there. |
| The Art of Eight |
| Gonna eat some microwaved popcorn seriously the stuff's ain't bad. |
| I don't know what's worse, the arguments that some of the people are making in this thread or the fact that this is the most intelligent conversation i have found from browsing this website for 10 minutes. |
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Armiga21 said: dankickyou said: I love Adventure Time, and my >>>>>anime was an attempt at mocking your own generalizing statements like "cartoon are for kiddies", "anime is for superior people" etc. Again, I love animation in general, but seeing elitist attitudes, I can't help give a mocking jab here and there. So your counter to proving animation isn't primarily for children in America is to list a children's cartoon. Fantastic logic. I admit full defeat, good sir. JonyJC said: Gonna eat some microwaved popcorn seriously the stuff's ain't bad. It never compares to the movie theater popcorn. It wasn't an example of a mature cartoon, Brah. Adventure time is TV-PG btw. I was trying to be a pompous elitist by giving generalizing statements, seems it went over you're head. Also, if you're looking for mature stuff you'll find much more in comics and graphic novels and in animated movies more than tv series but here are some examples: Batman TAS & Spawn (many other Superhero cartoons that aren't cheesy on purpose) Archer Family Guy Futurama South Park Avatar(similiar to Shonen anime) Korra The Boondocks Beavis & Butthead Daria Plague Dogs Watership Down The Illusionist Mary & Max Gargoyles Godzilla: TV Series The 90s X-men cartoon Star Wars:Clone Wars Alfred J Kwak Orson and Olivia Felidae Fantastic Mr Fox Frisky Dingo Metalocalypse Harvey Birdman Samurai Jack When The Wind Blows Persepolis Chico & Rita The Last Unicorn Secret of Kells Total Drama Batman: Mask of the Phantasm Fantastic Planet Wrinkles Fritz the Cat (all the stuff Jigero posted) Coonskin Heavy Traffic Wizards Fire and Ice American Pop Hey Good lookin' Heavy Metal Heavy Metal 2000 I married a Strange Person The Secret of NIMH Is that enough "mature" titles "Mr I only watch mature titles for mature viewers such as myself?" Also, if you only watch shows that are "mature" you miss out on a lot of great stuff. While the animation industry even as wide as Japan's (There's alot more creativity andchoices in western comics than western cartoons). It can only get better from here on out. |
| The Art of Eight |
| >Does America have a parallel to one piece? How about The Simpsons. Stupid, or trolling. Either way, get a load of this baka right here. Also cool list. How many hours scouring wikipedia did it take you to find those obscure foriegn cartoon movies? Don't get pissed because no one likes your kiddy cartoons. |
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