Classic Tsundere vs. Modern Tsundere

Deknijff said:
Pullman because it is one word and as such the two words that combine into one have to be together for the definition to fit. Yes a person can start off tsun but that doesn't make them a tsundere. Let us look at Kirino

she was nice to her older brother at a young age but then when she fell in love with him she started acting tsun towards him to mask her feelings for him and then the gradual change of her being nice to her brother happened as she was in love with him. Thats the part that is important, there has to be love from the start which starts off tsun to mask it and then act nicely towards their love interest later on

TripleSRank said:
@Pullman I'm not contradicting the classic tsundere definition you've searched out. In fact my first post in this thread was in favor of the classic archetype over the modern. Classic vs. modern has more to do with temperament.

A classic would love, admire, or appreciate a character and cover that up with cold behavior that gradually warms up over time. They won't seem bipolar in their feelings, and any change in behavior to the target will remain much more permanent than with the modern variety.

A modern, on the other hand, is an exaggerated version of the above where the tsundere is frequently smacked with a lot of infatuation and embarrassment and resorts to extremely harsh treatment or even violence to hide said infatuation/embarrassment, and there is often (though not always) no permanent switch to stop acting harshly even after they acknowledge their feelings.

They're both about hiding a positive feeling toward someone with negative behavior, though.

A classic would love, admire, or appreciate a character and cover that up with cold behavior that gradually warms up over time. They won't seem bipolar in their feelings, and any change in behavior to the target will remain much more permanent than with the modern variety.

Pullman said:


Okay then I just thought since you mentioned Zeyfiris posts where he specifically says it is not a development but a personality trait as him knowing his shit that you also thought like that to some degree.

But still, in my vague memories of the show this:


seems to describe Taiga quite accurately? Not necessarily with other characters but with her love interest it did seem like she was gradually be able to be more honest about her feelings. But yeah I can't really back this up since I lack detailed memories, it's just the impression I remember having about the show and her character. That she wasn't all that honest about her feelings from the start and that changed over time.

Pullman said:
Okay so basically your personal interpretation? I was more thinking of some etymological japanese source or article or idk. Anything tangible that's not just you saying 'that's how it is because this makes sense to me' even though tons of more official sources contradict it. Lots of other interpretations/usages are mentioned and not all of them talk about a personality trait or there needing to be romantic feelings involved (it can also be just feelings in general).

Pullman said:
Your 'argument' with it being one word is not very compelling. I can argue in the same line of thinking that tsun is spcifically before the dere in the word (and not deretsun) because that's how it starts and dere is how it ends, ergo a development process ;)

TripleSRank said:

It doesn't describe Taiga because she's nice to everyone she likes. She was nice to her crush at the start of the anime from the get-go and is also nice to her friend, Minori. She's mean to Ami because she doesn't like her, and her violence toward Ryuugi is like a sliding scale where she becomes progressively less violent to him the more she comes to like him. By the time she's developed feelings for him near the end of the show she's no longer violent toward him at all.

So no, she doesn't cover up anything. She's honest about her feelings toward people.

Also, in further defense of the definition as I'm presenting it: To anyone saying tsundere has nothing to do with hiding positive feelings and it's strictly being mean at first and being nice later, follow that logic through to its conclusion: Is every antagonist who has switched to the protagonist's side a tsundere? What about characters seeking revenge who later decide the revenge isn't worth it and gets along with their former target? Etc. The term would cover way way more than it currently does if it was changed to be that broad.

her violence toward Ryuugi is like a sliding scale where she becomes progressively less violent to him the more she comes to like him.

Deknijff said:
Well if you want to call it my personal interpretation feel free to do so. Its true enough in a sense
I prefer to persuade people by my own words rather than using random sources off the internet for these things as the community isn't exactly reliable for that. Like how people are blind enough to call Hestia a loli just because the author has characters call her that. So she gets classified as one
and if you are referring to characters like Kagami who is tsundere to her friends

then fine enough on that since thats a different kind of love but still love none the less so she can be classified as a kind of tsundere.but thats a different kind of development process :/
If we classified anything with such open development you might as well just call these 3 random crazy characters yanderes

as you would with these 3 actual yanderes

Pullman said:


I edited some in my last post. but I guess you're saying she disliked Ryuugi for most of the show and only started liking him toward the end? Because I'd probably agree that her behaviour only changed over time when it came to Ryuugi, but isn't it kinda part of the definition of tsundere that romantic feelings have to be involved? At least that's one way of seeing it. So her not going through a tsundere development with anyone else doesn't matter too much imo. And with Ryuugi I don't think her not liking him until the end was my impression while I watched it, but idk this is hard to 'argue'. In my memory I saw her having these 'I secretly like you' moments at a time during the show where she was still having a lot of more violent reactions to Ryuugi doing stuff or being nice or whatever. Sure, she didnÄt come to terms with her own feelings until the end and that's what finalized her change, but I think the feelings were already present at a much earlier stage and she was regularly reacting violent to stuff he did because she liked him, not because she didn't like him.


That is like the definition of the classic tsundere as we talked about, isn't it? I guess it depends on whether you see her decline in violent reactions and her growing feelings to develop at the same pace or not. I felt like the feelings were developing fairly early but it took her a while to accept that and during that period (which was most of the show) she was pretty much being a tsundere going through this process of her behaviour catching up to her feelings so she could eventually accept them and 'drop the act'.

e:Why am I arguing about taiga, I promised myself to stay out of that :>.
Anyway as I said this is just the distinct impression I remember getting from the show, but I can't point you to any particular scenes or episodes and say 'this is why I think that' so if you say I'm wrong because remember this and that scene I can't really argue and will just believe you. it has been a long time after all. I don't remember her crush at the start at all for example.

TripleSRank said:

The changing behavior in itself doesn't make her a tsundere any more than it makes an antagonist who flips to the protagonist's side a tsundere. The whole foundation for a tsundere, classic or modern, is that they're hiding their positive feelings (it can be feelings of friendship or like... wanting to fawn over a pet just as much as it can be romantic feelings) with negative actions.

If you or someone else could make a convincing case for Taiga having romantic feelings for Ryuugi early on in the anime, then yes, that would indeed make her a tsundere. Unfortunately it's been many years since I watched the show so I can't get too in-depth either, but I didn't think she had feelings for Ryuugi at all back when they first called their truce or for quite awhile after. I do recall some deredere scenes when they agreed to help each other get together with their crushes (they were at a telephone pole or something) but Taiga was thinking about her crush at the time-- not Ryuugi. The point I distinctly remember thinking "she's falling/fallen for Ryuugi" was when he dressed up as the bear and surprise visited her on Christmas.

I don't remember a whole lot else about how their relationship progressed other than that, though, so if someone could point to earlier points that indicated romance then I couldn't really argue against it due to a similar lack of memory.

I've actually thought about rewatching Toradora! recently. Maybe I should since it seems to keep coming up on AD for whatever reason.

Pullman said:
I don't see what yandere has to do with it. Just because both are tropes/archetypes doesn't mean their meaning has to be similar or that the term developed with the same 'history'. I honestly never looked into yandere but it seems a bit more specific for sure. Yandere probably is a specific personality trait/behaviour pattern, only exhibited toward their romantic interest.

Pullman said:
I have seen a lot of (older) shows with characters exhibiting tsundere behaviour and getting more dere over time. Plus I've read about classical tsunderes a lot too. That's why I'm talking about it because both experience and research tell me that version of the tsundere archetype exists so I'm curious why people are denying it. I can't say the same about yandere or other dere types although a quick search shows me that at least TVTropes (I know, I know) divides Kuudere in 3 types as well, one of them being also a 'development' type where the girl overcomes her shyness over time after getting to know the other person better and becoming their friend while still being 'kuu' to everyone they don't know well enough.

Deknijff said:
@Zefyris @TripleSRank please help me with this because I honestly have a small dislike for @JustALEX and if I start arguging with him on this I'm going to be very rude depending on how this goes