Red_Keys said: I don't understand why somebody else generating resources, and you being able to gain access to those resources that you didn't have a hand in creating, through peaceful mutually consented methods, is a bad thing. If you don't want to give somebody your work, you don't have to. Do the work for yourself. You seem to be inferring to "individual self concern" as opposed to my ideology of "collective self concern". I would recommend watching this video if you don't know what I am talking about: |
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| I think it is what a society should be like, if the purpose of a society isn't helping each other to live a just life what's the point? |
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hoopla123 said: StardustNyako said: Most people become these things at least in part because they like helping people (doctors)n inventing/ building things (engineers) or making discoveries about this world to feed their curiousity (scientists) Charl: Quite the opposite I would prefer a more communist society, just not an extreme one lke North Korea. If you really think that people become engineers, scientists and doctors just for their passion, you are wrong. If that's the case, they should all be in Africa and volunteering to help the really needy people instead of staying in 1st world countries making bank. I'm in no way stating that they only do it for the money. Just the fact is, money is or if not more important than love for the industry for these people. Your point about Africa is a good one and your whole post has good points. |
"Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
StardustNyako said: hoopla123 said: Charl: Quite the opposite I would prefer a more communist society, just not an extreme one lke North Korea. If you really think that people become engineers, scientists and doctors just for their passion, you are wrong. If that's the case, they should all be in Africa and volunteering to help the really needy people instead of staying in 1st world countries making bank. I'm in no way stating that they only do it for the money. Just the fact is, money is or if not more important than love for the industry for these people. Your point about Africa is a good one and your whole post has good points. Specialization jobs are sought after because some people tend to prefer a job with more mental capacity than a physical capacity. Let me ask you this, if you were a doctor making $500k a month, even if I dropped the salary to lets say $70k. Would you quit it to work as a miner, or at a lumber mill, perhaps an oil rig? The reason why you make so much money as a doctor is because you have the power to demand that much money from the entrepreneurs or you can simply withhold your medical services. The experiment I just stated is sourced from this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTNui0ug1aw&feature=youtu.be&t=31m31s |
OrckaAug 5, 2015 10:41 PM
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Orcka said: StardustNyako said: Your point about Africa is a good one and your whole post has good points. Specialization jobs are sought after because some people tend to prefer a job with more mental capacity than a physical capacity. Let me ask you this, if you were a doctor making $500k a month, even if I dropped the salary to lets say $70k. Would you quit it to work as a miner, or at a lumber mill, perhaps an oil rig? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTNui0ug1aw&feature=youtu.be&t=31m31s Doesn't change the fact that becoming an engineer, doctor and other things is much more stressful than being a burger flipper making the same wage. It's not even the job itself, it's the process of becoming one (studying for years and years on end, stressing about passing exams, and even then you don't have a 100% chance of succeeding and becoming a doctor/engineer). All those miners, lumber mill and oil rig workers would just go straight to burger flipping as well. Why? Because the labor is less physically and mentally intensive. Same goes for becoming a doctor/engineer and etc.. My point is almost no one (always that one exception isn't there?) that would undergo more hardships if they get the same compensation as someone who is essentially more easily off. This discussion was never about mental vs physical. It was about whether people would do something that is harder for same compensation as easier off people. |
Orcka said: hoopla123 said: Doesn't change the fact that becoming an engineer, doctor and other things is much more stressful than being a burger flipper making the same wage. It's not even the job itself, it's the process of becoming one (studying for years and years on end, stressing about passing exams, and even then you don't have a 100% chance of succeeding and becoming a doctor/engineer). All those miners, lumber mill and oil rig workers would just go straight to burger flipping as well. Why? Because the labor is less physically and mentally intensive. Same goes for becoming a doctor/engineer and etc.. My point is almost no one (always that one exception isn't there?) that would undergo more hardships if they get the same compensation as someone who is essentially more easily off. This discussion was never about mental vs physical. It was about whether people would do something that is harder for same compensation as easier off people. I have never met a person that would prefer to flip burgers for the rest of their life, than pursue some other career like an engineer, or scientist (regardless of the pay). Also, in a socialistic economy, fast food companies would be eliminated, because there is no incentive for the entrepreneurs to ask for cheap labor from "easy" work. So if you really want to flip burgers, go for it. However I personally wouldn't want to do that, it's horrifically boring if you ever actually participated in it. My experiment still stands, I would still prefer to stay as a low income doctor. Because in our society, flipping burgers makes you someone of a lower status than a doctor or engineer. They also make much less money, live in borderline poverty (if that's your actual job), and many other implications of your social status. In a perfect communist society, there should be no difference of status between a doctor/engineer and a burger flipper. You're one of the few that would go through all that stress to become a doctor for the same pay and social status. The majority of the world would not try to set foot into something that doesn't benefit them in anyway and actually provide more harm than good to themselves. And you think being a doctor is an exciting job? Dentists have one of the highest suicide rates in any career in the world. The stress of running a clinic, going through countless number of patients day after day with little rest is much more hard than a "boring" burger flipper job. |
hoopla123 said: Doesn't change the fact that becoming an engineer, doctor and other things is much more stressful than being a burger flipper making the same wage. It's not even the job itself, it's the process of becoming one (studying for years and years on end, stressing about passing exams, and even then you don't have a 100% chance of succeeding and becoming a doctor/engineer). All those miners, lumber mill and oil rig workers would just go straight to burger flipping as well. Why? Because the labor is less physically and mentally intensive. Same goes for becoming a doctor/engineer and etc.. My point is almost no one (always that one exception isn't there?) that would undergo more hardships if they get the same compensation as someone who is essentially more easily off. This discussion was never about mental vs physical. It was about whether people would do something that is harder for same compensation as easier off people. I have never met a person that would prefer to flip burgers for the rest of their life, than pursue some other career like an engineer, or scientist (regardless of the pay). Also, in a socialistic economy, fast food companies would be eliminated, because there is no incentive for the entrepreneurs to ask for cheap labor from "easy" work. So if you really want to flip burgers, go for it. However I personally wouldn't want to do that, it's horrifically boring if you ever actually participated in it. My experiment still stands, I would still prefer to stay as a low income doctor. This motive remuneration for duration, intensity, orneriness is fair and it also makes economic sense. Let me ask you this, let's say that I will give you $1 million dollars to play like Michel Jordan. Can you do it? There is absolutely no incentive effect of paying a lot of money based on changing your genetic adornment. And yet, we are suppose to reward people for genetic endowment. This has no incentive effect at all. You need an incentive to work longer, to work harder, to work in hard conditions, ect... You don't need incentive on choosing the profession you wish to chase for, you simply go for whatever you feel you would "enjoy the most". |
OrckaAug 5, 2015 11:02 PM
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Orcka said: hoopla123 said: Doesn't change the fact that becoming an engineer, doctor and other things is much more stressful than being a burger flipper making the same wage. It's not even the job itself, it's the process of becoming one (studying for years and years on end, stressing about passing exams, and even then you don't have a 100% chance of succeeding and becoming a doctor/engineer). All those miners, lumber mill and oil rig workers would just go straight to burger flipping as well. Why? Because the labor is less physically and mentally intensive. Same goes for becoming a doctor/engineer and etc.. My point is almost no one (always that one exception isn't there?) that would undergo more hardships if they get the same compensation as someone who is essentially more easily off. This discussion was never about mental vs physical. It was about whether people would do something that is harder for same compensation as easier off people. I have never met a person that would prefer to flip burgers for the rest of their life, than pursue some other career like an engineer, or scientist (regardless of the pay). Also, in a socialistic economy, fast food companies would be eliminated, because there is no incentive for the entrepreneurs to ask for cheap labor from "easy" work. So if you really want to flip burgers, go for it. However I personally wouldn't want to do that, it's horrifically boring if you ever actually participated in it. My experiment still stands, I would still prefer to stay as a low income doctor. This motive remuneration for duration, intensity, orneriness is fair and it also makes economic sense. Let me ask you this, let's say that I will give you $1 million dollars to play like Michel Jordan. Can you do it? There is absolutely no incentive effect of paying a lot of money based on changing your genetic adornment. And yet, we are suppose to reward people for genetic endowment. This has no incentive effect at all. You need an incentive to work longer, to work harder, to work in hard conditions, ect... That's why I just said that people would not become doctors and do burger flipping instead? There is literally zero motive for them to do something more stressful. I don't understand why you would post this to me lol. And read my post above, that pretty much says everything. |
hoopla123 said: Orcka said: I have never met a person that would prefer to flip burgers for the rest of their life, than pursue some other career like an engineer, or scientist (regardless of the pay). Also, in a socialistic economy, fast food companies would be eliminated, because there is no incentive for the entrepreneurs to ask for cheap labor from "easy" work. So if you really want to flip burgers, go for it. However I personally wouldn't want to do that, it's horrifically boring if you ever actually participated in it. My experiment still stands, I would still prefer to stay as a low income doctor. This motive remuneration for duration, intensity, orneriness is fair and it also makes economic sense. Let me ask you this, let's say that I will give you $1 million dollars to play like Michel Jordan. Can you do it? There is absolutely no incentive effect of paying a lot of money based on changing your genetic adornment. And yet, we are suppose to reward people for genetic endowment. This has no incentive effect at all. You need an incentive to work longer, to work harder, to work in hard conditions, ect... That's why I just said that people would not become doctors and do burger flipping instead? There is literally zero motive for them to do something more stressful. I don't understand why you would post this to me lol. And read my post above, that pretty much says everything. And I'm telling you that the incentive of specialty jobs would not decline, people usually do these jobs because they enjoy them. You assume that people are "naturally" lazy and will work the minimum amount of time for maximum efficiency, which is Capitalist pseudo science. Don't believe me, then here is an experiment conducted by the Canadian government, to see what would happen to town that is given basic necessities (for free) for 5 years. Nobody changed their jobs, and poverty was eliminated from the town. [url]http://public.econ.duke.edu/~erw/197/forget-cea%20(2).pdf[/url] |
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Orcka said: hoopla123 said: That's why I just said that people would not become doctors and do burger flipping instead? There is literally zero motive for them to do something more stressful. I don't understand why you would post this to me lol. And read my post above, that pretty much says everything. And I'm telling you that the incentive of specialty jobs would not decline, people usually do these jobs because they enjoy them. You assume that people are "naturally" lazy and will work the minimum amount of time for maximum efficiency, which is Capitalist pseudo science. Don't believe me, then here is an experiment conducted by the Canadian government, to see what would happen to town that is given basic necessities (for free) for 5 years. Nobody changed their jobs, and poverty was eliminated from the town. [url]http://public.econ.duke.edu/~erw/197/forget-cea%20(2).pdf[/url] Sigh. If you think that monetary compensation/social status has nothing to do with people working their asses off to do become specialized to do these jobs, I have nothing more to say to you man. People will always choose things simpler for the same pay. Specialized jobs will decline if you don't have incentive. No one works without incentive period. Especially monetary incentive. Anyways I'm done lol. |
hoopla123 said: Sigh. If you think that monetary compensation/social status has nothing to do with people working their asses off to do become specialized to do these jobs, I have nothing more to say to you man. People will always choose things simpler for the same pay. Specialized jobs will decline if you don't have incentive. No one works without incentive period. Especially monetary incentive. Anyways I'm done lol. For the 3rd time......you ASSUME that people would do this, without physical evidence. It is nothing more than a hallow statement. This is a very common capitalist argument that holds absolutely no merit. Prove to me that this statement is true with scientific evidence, and then I will listen to what you have to say. Plus, "stress" in the workplace is determined by how exploited the workers are by their entrepreneurs. Eliminate this, and you eliminate the stress factor from the workplace. |
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-Songbird said: hey that's a cool gif You can find all Pokemon sprites from all generations through this site: http://www.pokestadium.com/tools/sprites |
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-Songbird said: Orcka said: thanksYou can find all Pokemon sprites from all generations through this site: http://www.pokestadium.com/tools/sprites My apologies... The site does not contain the primal versions of the 3rd gen legendaries. So ill give them to you: http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/8/83/383p.gif http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/5/59/384m.gif http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/9/9b/382p.gif Other than that I believe the site contains everything else. |
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Orcka said: I want my own Kyogre to fly everywhere. . .9Surprised I remember that Pokemon's name OTTOMH-Songbird said: thanks My apologies... The site does not contain the primal versions of the 3rd gen legendaries. So ill give them to you: http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/8/83/383p.gif http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/5/59/384m.gif http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/9/9b/382p.gif Other than that I believe the site contains everything else. Anyway while hoopla may not have scientific evidence for their posistion (but they have a sexy Mikasa avvie) I think What they are trying to say is that in every doctor there may be passion, but there is definitely a money incentive for having the job that they work in. (All Doctors in first world countries work for the money, but not all doctors have a passion for helping people.)They back this up by raising the question of, if all that drove them was passion, why are they not with Doctors Without Borders in Africa or Asia trying to help people for far less material personal benefit? Sure there are still very passionate doctors here that care about helping people more but the money incentive still olds them here and from going off to make a bigger impact elsewhere. For Hoopla this proves that if we had a socialist society, not nearly as many people would be doctors, because some of them are only in it for lots of pay/ power. Those who's main drive was passion and not the money side of it would be willing to leave the First World in favor of offering their expertise in a place hat needs it way more than we do. |
StardustNyakoAug 6, 2015 9:31 AM
| "Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
Red_Keys said: Perhaps I should say money itself is but rather capitalism. The reason a society that functions on money is reminiscent to slavery is because it takes away part of a persons free will. This is a society where a persons value is based too greatly on their economic value, which dehumanizes people. The people of corporations on the top of the money chain are the slavemasters who get to tell everyone else what to do. Without socialism you have a society where unless you work a money paying job of a good payout you can not live, as if to say you have no value at all.traed said: Can you explain?Its just another more accepted form of slavery. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
StardustNyako said: Orcka said: I want my own Kyogre to fly everywhere. . .9Surprised I remember that Pokemon's name OTTOMHMy apologies... The site does not contain the primal versions of the 3rd gen legendaries. So ill give them to you: http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/8/83/383p.gif http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/5/59/384m.gif http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/pokemon/9/9b/382p.gif Other than that I believe the site contains everything else. Anyway while hoopla may not have scientific evidence for their posistion (but they have a sexy Mikasa avvie) I think What they are trying to say is that in every doctor there may be passion, but there is definitely a money incentive for having the job that they work in. (All Doctors in first world countries work for the money, but not all doctors have a passion for helping people.)They back this up by raising the question of, if all that drove them was passion, why are they not with Doctors Without Borders in Africa or Asia trying to help people for far less material personal benefit? Sure there are still very passionate doctors here that care about helping people more but the money incentive still olds them here and from going off to make a bigger impact elsewhere. For Hoopla this proves that if we had a socialist society, not nearly as many people would be doctors, because some of them are only in it for lots of pay/ power. Those who's main drive was passion and not the money side of it would be willing to leave the First World in favor of offering their expertise in a place hat needs it way more than we do. Apparently I am not getting to anyone, even though I explained about 4 times already how the incentive of humans is based entirely on personal preference, as long as the wage is good enough to live off of, people would do anything. The idea that people would only work as doctors if there is a high wage salary is nothing more than an economical myth that has absolutely no scientific evidence to back itself on. So let me give you a lecturer who is is very knowledgeable on the subject (I skipped to the part were he talks about this topic at 31 minutes and 31 seconds for you): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTNui0ug1aw&feature=youtu.be&t=31m31s And here is an Anarchist answering the same exact question: https://youtu.be/i5lCv24nRmM?t=11m43s |
OrckaAug 6, 2015 6:56 PM
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