| Btw anyone read I.S.? It deals with intersex people and has a number of different stories (though the longes one by far is Haru's story). Some of them identify as female, some male, some are happy being intersex and identify as such. The talk of Wandering Son reminded me of it. |
| I hope no one will kill me for this, I hope but I have three suggestions, Soul Eater:Almost all the females expect Liz and Blair to an extent are strong even though there is fanservice I still think its worthy on the list Alice from Alice in the country of Hearts franchise: She is strong, stands her ground and brings up objection , she is not a stereotypical Josei reverse harem girl and I think in the dating sim she fights in the mafia from what I heard Ouran High School Host Club : Haruhi is another strong female she can stand up for herself and can be independent (maybe too much at times) and guys respect her, sure she works at a host club but she didn't mind (and has a 8million yen fee) If you disagree please explain why and Ill understand but I think there great for the list. |
| I %100 disagree with Ouran. I could even argue it belongs on the sexist list. |
Kaceseev said: As resident Soul Eater fan here, I'd have to say...no, Soul Eater isn't feminist. Feminist friendly? Yes, but not feminist. The female characters are pretty badass (my queen, Maka, especially) but there's nothing really too empowering about it. And although fanservice isn't automaticaly sexist, there were many times when it got some serious eye-rolls out of me. Like when Blair and Mizune had that random sexy catfight while the big bad escaped, the women being naked in weapon forms while men are clothed (this was fixed in the anime though), the entire point of the character Kaguya in the manga is just to prance around naked, etc. I love Soul Eater a lot, well, the anime mostly, but I can't bring myself to put it on the same level as Utena or Sailor Moon. (Not to mention the manga also had some pretty racist shit too) As for Ouran, I agree completely that Haruhi is a great character, however, what ruins Ouran for the feminist list is that one part where Kyoya pins Haruhi down and says something like "See? You're still a girl. I can control you." Gross. I understand , the main reason I suggest Soul Eater was because I saw the females could stand up for them selves and not be quiet especially Maka( she is my second favorite female protagonist )Though that fight alone and how Blair treats.Soul makes me question what the mangaka was doing. I also dont understand why the guys had on clothes in the weapon form either. But Im still a fan girl and love it. Also haven't gotten that far in the manga. With that scene I think the only reason Kyoka did it was because he was angry that she didn't vaule her safety. But he did apologize. Yet he is still my least favorite in the Host Club. But I don't remember much. I think I need to re watch it. Earwen said: I %100 disagree with Ouran. I could even argue it belongs on the sexist list. Can you explain why you would agure that? I.just want to here your opinion. |
| Ouran is a tricky one, I think. On the one hand, I do like the fact that Haruhi is confident enough in herself to not let Tamaki's hilariously (but not really) conservative and paternalistic views on romance and gender roles bother her, and that she views gender as something not entirely broken apart by a biological binary. On the other hand, there are several moments where the anime has her act "more feminine" or "vulnerable" when it tries to get her closer to Tamaki. Her indifference to the club's nonsense also has another side to it: she never really says anything when they make sexist comments, even about her (pretty sure someone mentioned the beach scene some way back, and that bugged me also). Also: Ouran plays with gender roles in an interesting way. Does that automatically make it into a feminist series? Not necessarily, given that while it satirizes those tropes of shoujo manga, it also lets many of them stand in the end. |
SarcotarascusN said: Ouran is a tricky one, I think. On the one hand, I do like the fact that Haruhi is confident enough in herself to not let Tamaki's hilariously (but not really) conservative and paternalistic views on romance and gender roles bother her, and that she views gender as something not entirely broken apart by a biological binary. On the other hand, there are several moments where the anime has her act "more feminine" or "vulnerable" when it tries to get her closer to Tamaki. Her indifference to the club's nonsense also has another side to it: she never really says anything when they make sexist comments, even about her (pretty sure someone mentioned the beach scene some way back, and that bugged me also). Also: Ouran plays with gender roles in an interesting way. Does that automatically make it into a feminist series? Not necessarily, given that while it satirizes those tropes of shoujo manga, it also lets many of them stand in the end. Well from what I can remember in the anime they do respect her in the end , so I though it was a good suggestion. (I am going off memory so if I do forget to state something let me know) The feminine thing I think is to state to new viewers Haruhi is a girl and its a shoujo so its always girly one way or another but there were some where where they do become closer even without the feminine parts. Episodes 10, 13, and I think 16 think is a good examples from what I can recall, even the first episode dose it. There were a couple sexist jokes but I think its due to there inexperience in the real world. I remember there countless reactions to everything so to a degree its understandable and I don't remember that many sexist jokes. Haruhi possibly isnt the type to be bugged this but then again going off memory. If its about the scene with Kyoka he was angry she didn't vaule her safety. To be fair there were plenty of different ways to take it instead of the way he did. But that's the only reason , he wants her to know she sometimes has to ask for help. But there was a scene in episode 5 that was just violates me. The part where the twins Photoshoped her bugs me. Then again the twins qualified for the asshat characters award at the time until episode 20 something. But I can understand why some may not say its good for the list. But what about Fruits Basket or HighSchool of the Dead?The female leads are great in both shows (minus the nurse she was kind of useless), they are independent (minus the nurse and Kisa) and I saw the guys do have a change at heart. Dont remember anything sexist either. But what are anyones thoughts? Also HSOTD is highly over use fanservice (seriously the were nearly no parts where they were) so that's a fair warring for anyone who hates fanservice. |
I was going to write abut Ouran but looks like SarcotarascusN has that covered. There really is no justifying the beach episode. I'll add that the counterpart to the host club in the all-female school (implied lesbians? and stereotypical feminists) were only there to be made fun of, and not in a good way. Also this:  yeah real funny |
EarwenSep 22, 2014 6:08 AM
| :/ That insult made it's way into Japanese, did it? That is ironic considering the Japanese' rosy view of the Nazis. |
Earwen said: I was going to write abut Ouran but looks like SarcotarascusN has that covered. There really is no justifying the beach episode. I'll add that the counterpart to the host club in the all-female school (implied lesbians? and stereotypical feminists) were only there to be made fun of, and not in a good way. Also this: yeah real funny I was rewatching Ouran to see why with the beach episode and I can see why now. What was going on near the end did bug me (the first time I saw it was when I wasn't feminist ,inexperience in being an otaku , wasn't i bug easily with stuff like that so that's why I said what I did say) and don't get me started on the Lobella girls they were just painful to watch even when I wasn't a feminist and just gave me a headache.Also am I the only one who though Hiraku and Karure's behavior at the being is uncalled for? So I can see now, but I still do like the show. |
| I don't think Ouran belongs on the sexist list, because I think it's trying in some ways, but no it doesn't belong on the feminist list either. And I still love the show to no end, but we'll just leave it off both lists. Soul Eater also does not belong on the feminist list though I do LOVE it. HOWEVER, if you take a closer look at our relations, you will note that Maka is, in fact, on our character relations. 8) We can add characters to lists without adding the whole series if we feel there are issues with the series but certain characters are still empowering in their own right. I also want to point out that fanservice does not automatically make something sexist or disqualify it and we have a couple series on the list that are FULL of fanservice, but due to the way the female characters are portrayed the series still belong on relations. Though I am re-thinking Witchblade's inclusion, because while the women are strong and awesome... There's really no excuse for a lot of the fanservice, and a lot of it is rather demeaning (monsters splattering white goo onto her face). So I might take that off. But Fairy Tail and Michiko to Hatchin are both fanservicey, and there's been people asking to put Gintama on the list (which I probably will do) and I know that has fanservice. |
| Someday Red Garden will be added too. I still believe. ;_; |
Amberleh said: I don't think Ouran belongs on the sexist list, because I think it's trying in some ways, but no it doesn't belong on the feminist list either. And I still love the show to no end, but we'll just leave it off both lists. Soul Eater also does not belong on the feminist list though I do LOVE it. HOWEVER, if you take a closer look at our relations, you will note that Maka is, in fact, on our character relations. 8) We can add characters to lists without adding the whole series if we feel there are issues with the series but certain characters are still empowering in their own right. I also want to point out that fanservice does not automatically make something sexist or disqualify it and we have a couple series on the list that are FULL of fanservice, but due to the way the female characters are portrayed the series still belong on relations. Though I am re-thinking Witchblade's inclusion, because while the women are strong and awesome... There's really no excuse for a lot of the fanservice, and a lot of it is rather demeaning (monsters splattering white goo onto her face). So I might take that off. But Fairy Tail and Michiko to Hatchin are both fanservicey, and there's been people asking to put Gintama on the list (which I probably will do) and I know that has fanservice. I guess Im still confused as to what makes a show. I always though rape and sexual harassment are what makes a show sexist. Though Im still learning. I can understand now why they cant be added to the list and will re look at few. |
| Rape and sexual harassment do not make a show sexist, if they are definitely portrayed as being a very bad thing. If they are written like they are no big deal and not viewed as anything negative, then they are definitely sexist. |
fuven said: Rape and sexual harassment do not make a show sexist, if they are definitely portrayed as being a very bad thing. If they are written like they are no big deal and not viewed as anything negative, then they are definitely sexist. I always thought they were, I guess Im still confused but I am still learning what can make anything sexist. But I do apologize for that (I was tired when typing that and lets just say my ideology changes) I just can't stand it when they get sexual harassment or rape happens at times. (Unless they defend themselves Im not upset ) I guess I don't think.of the whole picture at the time . But it's true if they just don't do anything about it especially in "romance" anime then I get pissed off. Its the type of thing that pisses me off highly easily especially when fangirls are fine with this (believe me there are some who fantasize it way too much and makes me question there mentally especially the smut readers) |
heartofsouls11Sep 26, 2014 9:27 PM
| @heartofsouls11: Yeah, rape and sexual harassment, if too frequent or prevalent in a show, can be sexist, or if a female character's story hinges on these factors, but another important element is how women are portrayed. It's important that female characters are present (rather than invisible or irrelevant, as we've historically been portrayed), playing a role in events and that they have wishes or actions independent of the male characters, as you'll notice the male characters have dreams independent of the female characters ("I want to be the strongest," etc., etc.). |
| I see what your getting at , they have to be realistic and have a life outside of the event but be active. Are they any sexist anime stereotypes I should be cautious of? I have been making a manga and I want to try and avoid anything sexist. So its also good to know these so I don't do them by mistake. |
| Oh, good on you for creating a manga! That's great that you want to avoid stereotypes. Well, maybe others can point out stereotypes or tropes that annoy them, but here are a few: the naïf, the innocent who doesn't understand innuendos or the world, Japanese ideal; often also the "support character" who has few skills, mental or physical, to contribute to saving the world or X; the girl swooning for the abusive hero; dismissive male love interests. I think that covers it, without knowing the plot line or genre of your writing. If you've used these, though, it's quite easy to subvert them so that they're not so simple. |
| Thanks for telling me, though what's Japanese ideal and naif though? Ive been creating a steampunk story with comedy, action , adventure , mystery, and romance . I have a few main females so far. One's a flamboyant tomboy who's a pilot and a mechanic. She wants to find her younger brother. Another one is kind of innocent but understands everything and can build weapons. She also was abused at a young age but ranaway. And the final one is a nurse who comes off as cold hearted person but looks out for everyones (mainly the doctors) health. The guys aren't abusive or assholes, nor perfect. Each one of them are smart and have faults, and can fight in the battles. Is there anything wrong with the females I can fix? |
| Oh, I meant that the naif is a Japanese ideal of femininity. A naif is someone really innocent, usually female in media. I don't want to tell you what to write, but since you're asking my opinion, your characters sound good. :) |
| I couldn't tell with the constant commas so I thought they were separate. Thanks I wanted to make sure they weren't sexist. |
| The title might make you raise your eyebrows but I'm going to say 51 Ways to Save My Girlfriend. Especially the last volume which is basically a guide for women to protect themselves during an emergency situation. And despite the name the women are saving themselves and each other. The female characters are really good too. You expect them to be cliches but they just keep surprising you. edit: warning for That said it's been a while reading it so...I might possibly be wrong on some of it. |
EarwenOct 12, 2014 7:32 AM
| Omoide Emanon A wandering woman with no ties to anyone Solanin Female main character works and her boyfriend stays at home, he's a musician Undercurrent Female main character is abandoned by her husband, but, while she's still sad, she doesn't break down and keeps here bussiness open despite her husband being the co-manager, the manga doesn't forget male characters and portrays them in a realist way and their personalities do not clash, showing more of an equalty instead of glorification of either sex. Indigo Blue a Yuri Josei which doesn't sexualize women nor looks down on men, shows a nice look into homosexual relationships and a woman who discovers here sexuality |
 |
| I only read Indigo Blue, I'm not sure if I would call it feminist but it certainly isn't sexist, I don't mind adding it. Especially since our manga relations could use some work.... Another suggestion: Limited Lovers. It's a shoujo with a disabled heroine. She isn't like the usual weak shoujo leads either. BUT I remember next to nothing story wise. So...it could either way I guess. So get to reading people :| |
| I can see why you would say that since Alice has moments of being outspoken, but she still gets sexually harassed or threatened by a lot of the males. And her canon love interest (Blood) treats her like dirt and she loves him. So I will have to disagree on adding her. |
 |
| What you guys think about Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun? It's a comedy, but it sure plays with gender roles in a truly amusing way. |
| Oh, we added that one to our relations a while back, at least partly for reasons similar to those you describe. So it seems like you've added your voice to the consensus, and that it was a smart pick. :) |
| Reimei no arcana Anatolia Story Song of the long march The three of them have really empowering, strong and intelligent female main characters. They made me feel really good as a woman when I read them and I'm sure you all will apreciate them =D |
| If it has solution, don't bother; and if it hasn't, why bothering? Do you like manga? http://gunjoteam.com |
Although I am generally not much into shoujo titles, I must say those manga look interesting, especially 2nd and 3rd. I'll add all of them to the ptr list and check them out, though I cannot say how long it may take before I get around to them. |
 |
I'm reading/watching a lot of Gintama lately and even though it's not always ideal in terms of depiction of women (it's a shounen manga after all) it has plenty of strong female characters. So maybe some of them could be added to character relations? Especially Kagura. Just look at her. |
| Gintama has been suggested on several occassions and I personally have no objections to it's addition, but I have not seen or read it. And admin who has seen/read it should be the one to determine if it's addition is a good idea. Though from what I've seen from arguments, no one has said it's sexist. |
Tsukiaki said: Reimei no arcana Anatolia Story Song of the long march The three of them have really empowering, strong and intelligent female main characters. They made me feel really good as a woman when I read them and I'm sure you all will apreciate them =D Agreed with Reimei no Arcana. Song of the Long March looks really interesting.. I'll probably start that tonight. |
| Gintama does have some strong female characters, but I don't know if it's feminist. The show is a parody that relies on exaggerated tropes and crude humor. You either love or hate it. |
|
Daisy_petals said: Gintama does have some strong female characters, but I don't know if it's feminist. That's why I've suggested it to Character Relations, not Manga/Anime Relations. There were some moments in anime that made me cringe, such as when Tsukuyo claimed that she stopped being a woman when she became a warrior protecting Yoshiwara (and still is totally feminine, fighting in high heels and all) and I'm not sure whether a treatment of Yagyuu Kyuubei as a genderless person is proper here (it would be nice if she and Otae could just marry and be happy together). |
| Ok, I've read more of the manga and I'm still behind the idea of including Gintama or some characters from Gintama to club relations. SKET Dance is here and as far as I've seen it's not particularly better in representation, or quality, or whatever. Nami from One Piece is here, and she's recently just a walking fanservice. So returning to Gintama - maybe female-male ratio here is not perfect, but it also should be mentioned that manga is set around Meiji era. It's an alternative timeline with modern technology but still most of the characters were inspired by some well-known historical figures of the period, who mostly were men. It'd be hard to do Shinsengumi with female members (although in the first designs Okita was a lady). Still, there are some female characters who have surnames after men (there is a neat list here - http://www.yorozuyasoul.com/gintama/historical_influences), and they aren't included to be a source of fanservice (in Gintama fanservice is really rare, unless you want to see some naked guys with mosaics over them). Regarding female characters I will just enumerate some of them. http://myanimelist.net/character/674/Kagura - an alien with super strength and the first shonen jump heroine who's vomited on screen http://myanimelist.net/character/12161/Mutsu - a badass merchant http://myanimelist.net/character/6110/Kyubei_Yagyu - a heir to the Yagyuu clan http://myanimelist.net/character/55577/Nobume_Imai - a vice captain of the elite police force, Mimawarigumi http://myanimelist.net/character/18823/Tsukuyo - a leader of Hyakka who protects Yoshiwara http://myanimelist.net/character/2944/Tae_Shimura - a feminine cabaret girl, who kicks everyone's ass all the time (though she is also the source of a weak gag that everything she cooks turns into dark matter) http://myanimelist.net/character/103945/Asaemon_Ikeda - a great executioner http://myanimelist.net/character/18016/Tetsuko_Murata - a blacksmith http://myanimelist.net/character/32122/Tatsumi - a firefighter etc. As I said, Gintama is not perfect, for instance there are stalkers (but at least there is a female stalker and a male stalker, and they are constantly criticized for their behaviour), and there were some pompous shounen speeches about real men doing this or that, but then comes Kagura and breaks someone's legs or at the pool all guys realise that all women present are stronger than them, and they're totally right. To sum up, I haven't read such an empowering shounen in a long time and I'm supporting at least Kagura's candidature. |
| Well I didn't watch gintama either but it doesn't seem like anyone is arguing about adding characters. I'll wait a bit to see if anyone else has an opinion just in case. |
| Cool. I hope it doesn't seem like I'm nagging or something. |
| Not at all. |
| I think I saw the OVA way back when! It had potential! |
| Characters: http://myanimelist.net/character/603/Integra_Fairbrook_Wingates_Hellsing http://myanimelist.net/character/18/Haruhi_Fujioka The leader of organisation defending country from vampires and the most reasonable female lead of reverse harem series. |
| I disagree with Gunm. At least with the OVA. It had two female characters and both were purely motivated by men. As for Haruhi, honestly I'm against anything Ouran being on the list. |
Earwen said: As for Haruhi, honestly I'm against anything Ouran being on the list. Why? |
MarieSusan said: Amberleh said: The beach episode is the one I'm thinking of in particular, when she's on the cliff trying to save two other girls and Tamaki says "You're still a girl you can't do that!" And she gets mad, so Kyouya pins her to the bed and says "See you're still a girl and guys can take advantage of you". Huh, I don't remember that scene at all, it sounds so horrible I guess I've just chosen to quickly forget it. |
| Though speaking of Integra Hellsing, I think we had a conversation about adding her sometime back. Any objections? |
| I remember the scenes from Ouran, and if I remember correctly, they were in the manga also. Ugh, I remember how uncomfortable I felt while watching that scene with Kyouya, and I was 12 years old when I saw it. |
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