World Trigger Chapter 145 Discussion

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I don't think Hatohara was useless but I don't think she was that vital to her team's victory either. Like, if you replace Chika with Hatohara, do you think T-2 will start winning more? Probably not, as Chika's ability to alter terrain at will gives T-2 more options. For example, if Nasu squad wants to blow up a bridge to separate squads they have to meet up and all three together need to use Meteor to blow it up. If T-2 wanted to do that all they have to do is point Chika at the bridge. She can do it with one shot, from a range.

We don't know Hatohara's overall style either (she has Spider in her Trigger for whatever reason), all we know is she broke weapons. I know it was already said Ema isn't a reliable source of info on Hatohara, but even he as one who supposedly idolizes her didn't say she was a vital part of the team.
He only said:
1. She couldn't kill people, but that doesn't mean she's useless
2. Her Sniping skill is the best in Border

We can't be sure of the first point as we haven't seen a flashback of her being useful, nor do we get any comments about her from teammates except Nino who calls her an idiot. You could argue that since they let her remain in the team that she was useful, but at the same time it's also possible that they were fine either way and didn't want to be mean to her. They seem to have been good friends or share a special relationship because according to side materials her team hasn't thrown out her personal items from the operations room despite having been fired and becoming a wanted criminal for almost a whole year.

Second point was confirmed via BBF stats but it doesn't say anything about usefulness. But bottom line is, overall she isn't useless but I don't think she was useful enough to assume her team would fall without her.

BotatoMay 30, 2016 11:10 PM

May 31, 2016 2:17 AM

#203

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Botato said:
... but I don't think she was that vital to her team's victory either.

We don't know Hatohara's overall style either (she has Spider in her Trigger for whatever reason), all we know is she broke weapons. I know it was already said Ema isn't a reliable source of info on Hatohara ...
1. She couldn't kill people, but that doesn't mean she's useless
2. Her Sniping skill is the best in Border

Ema's 2nd point seems (and i think "is") just his opinion. Like, "to him" (to Ema) Hatohara was the best sniper. But like to me, i would like to think Asuma was and will be the best sniper... Tho Touma probably surpassed him in some aspects, and their skill level's probably very close... Like Asuma's still best at (for example) shooting "through" buildings, and calculating the "change" in trajectory (angles) of your bullets, when it goes through.... That's way more than "just" shooting at a target... I mean Touma, too probably can do it to some degree. But Asuma can shoot through "multiple layers"... seems so OP to me...

Just going by the "databook" everyone seems to be using to determine people's "skill evel"'s... Hatohara's says it was 51... So that is still higher than everyone on Nino team, other than Nino himself.
So basically she wasn't the "most vital" part of the team... But does being "2nd most important" member of your team, count for being a "vital part" of your team?

Also, she "balanced" the team out. I mean, now Nino team lacks a "sniper". There are some teams that have a "special" combination, even thought they have multiple of the same position. Like team Arafune? He's an all-rounder, and that helps out a lot...
Otherwise, for "most teams", being "balanced" will help out a lot.
So basically it's safe to say, Hatohara influenced her team "more" than someone else who might have had a "higher skill" (from the databook), and was like a shooter/ or gunner.
Cause the team already have Nino, so instead of adding another gunner/shooter, who's less skills than Nino, which only add's on fire power; adding a "sniper" (Hatohara), almost "multiplies" the strength of the team, as a "team". You know what I'm saying? I mean instead of shooter + shooter, shooter + sniper's probably much better, since the combination and support they can give each other will be much more.

Also i keep forgetting, when did Hatohara "disapear" (well go to the Neighbor World) again? Chika was 11? Now she's 14, so 3 years, is that right?
Then Hatohara's overall skill level was 51 (total), 3 years ago. Nino's score is 62, "now". So i also, only assume, that their "numbers" were closer 3 years ago. Maybe Nino's was like 56 or something...

Hatohara also did invent the Lead bullet + sniper gun thing... So even thought she didn't really use it, and can't use it Lightning + lead, like Chika can (not enough trion); i bet she could shoot 1 or 2 lead bullets "per match" (like 1 or 2 bullets for a day "limit" or something), if she used "eaglet"? Doesn't that like take less trion to use? And if she just shot 1 or 2 shots, not like "mass-destruction" style like Chika; maybe she could...

Anyway, she was an "important" part of her team. And it should be clear to say that Nino team lost a big part of their overall "strength" as a team, even if just for the fact they won't have any "snipers" anymore...
And even if they stayed A-rank, they would have "lost" rank. Were they 6? Maybe go to like 7, or 8.
But to everyone who's saying Nino team is A-rank, if not punished by HQ; what are you saying exactly? Are you saying that "right now", if A-rank 8 fought Nino team, they would lose?....
As i understand it, there's only a "limited" amount of A-rank teams (8?...) And when a B-rank team becomes A-rank, that low A-rank team gets "demoted" to B-rank? so they basically switch.
Like i said before, IMO, to become A-rank; first B Rank Wars, then B-rank #1, and B-rank #2 will fight A-rank lowest 2. And from those 4 teams, the top 2 becomes A-rank, lower 2 becomes B-rank. Doesn't have to be both B-rank teams become A-rank. It can also be 1 of the B-rank teams and 1 of the A-rank teams become the new A-rank, and the other 2 become B-rank top 2.

Commentator1May 31, 2016 2:25 AM

May 31, 2016 2:21 AM

#204

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Commentator1 said:

iKlinex said:
Basic anti-sniper tactics still apply. Selecting low terrain, narrow paths, etc.
This might not be a problem since Chika can use lead hound (in the appropriate situation of course; sniping fundamentals!).

I'm wondering what Hyuse's trigger set will be like.

I'm think Viper oriented shooter since he was very accurate with reflecting shots back with Lampyris vs Reiji and Torimaru. The main Viper could be substituted with asteroid for raw power. Also, T2 is lacking in mid range power; not necessarily for just point scoring, but also more movement manipulation.

Lead Hound still isn't as awesome as it sounds... I mean, let's say Hound is shot at you, all you have to do is go around a corner? And the Hound will hit that corner right?
I mean, the Hound is not going to go "around" the corner (it's going to go straight to it's target). So terain is important. Also, the distance the Hound can be used is supposed to be low? (was it 30m ? or some other short distance).

Hyuse trigger set-up. Why do you have Viper, Shield double? xD
Maybe:
Main: Asteroid, Hound, Viper, Meteora
Sub: Shield, Bag Worm, Chameleon, Spider

Most agents have shield in both slots so they can go full defense as needed, or set up multiple shields, it's pretty much the standard across all agents

Also, because you have none of the shooter triggers in the "Sub" hand, you make it impossible for Hyuse to use Hybrid bullets. Not a huge deal, but something you may want to consider if you re-organize the slots.

I think something along these lines is probably better:

Main:
Asteroid
Viper
Meteora
Shield

Sub:
Asteroid
Viper
Shield
Bagworm

We haven't seen it yet, but the BBF has some names for Viper + Viper, etc., and Asteroid + Asteroid is extremely strong (Gimlet) so I'd personally want to include those.

I also think that you don't really need Hound if you can control Viper well.

Not that his B-rank triggers will matter much, I bet his "Special" Tamakoma A-Rank trigger will just be Lampyris.

May 31, 2016 2:26 AM

#205

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Commentator1 said:

Botato said:
... but I don't think she was that vital to her team's victory either.

We don't know Hatohara's overall style either (she has Spider in her Trigger for whatever reason), all we know is she broke weapons. I know it was already said Ema isn't a reliable source of info on Hatohara ...
1. She couldn't kill people, but that doesn't mean she's useless
2. Her Sniping skill is the best in Border

Ema's 2nd point seems (and i think "is") just his opinion. Like, "to him" (to Ema) Hatohara was the best sniper. But like to me, i would like to think Asuma was and will be the best sniper... Tho Touma probably surpassed him in some aspects, and their skill level's probably very close... Like Asuma's still best at (for example) shooting "through" buildings, and calculating the "change" in trajectory (angles) of your bullets, when it goes through.... That's way more than "just" shooting at a target... I mean Touma, too probably can do it to some degree. But Asuma can shoot through "multiple layers"... seems so OP to me...

He meant it purely in terms of shooting skills. She is capable of breaking a sword in enemy hands in the middle of a melee which usually includes crazy mobility and Triggers like Grasshopper, Spider, Idaten, etc. Shooting with that kind of precision is just inhuman.

The rest of your post tells me you still don't have a clear understanding of basic mechanics in this manga as well as the timeline.

Hatohara left less than a year ago, as said earlier exact time given in the manga is 9 months. Further proof is Kazama squad being the ones sent to pursue Hatohara, but "3 years ago" Utagawa and Kikuchihara weren't even official agents yet.

And no, there isn't a limit on Lead Bullets. She can shoot as many as she like, they will just be too slow and easy to dodge. Using Egret is an even worse idea because it's not as fast as Lightning so it will be that much easier for enemies to dodge.

As i understand it, there's only a "limited" amount of A-rank teams (8?...) And when a B-rank team becomes A-rank, that low A-rank team gets "demoted" to B-rank? so they basically switch.

We actually don't know that yet. The only teams that were once A-Rank and dropped down only happened because of rule breaking, nothing to do with Rank Wars.
Edit: That would be the logical way to go about it, but we'll see.
I personally hope no one drops down, with the excuse being that too many people are applying to join Border so there should be more slots for A-Ranks.

BotatoMay 31, 2016 2:35 AM

May 31, 2016 3:58 AM

#206

the_fools

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Commentator1 said:

Ema's 2nd point seems (and i think "is") just his opinion. Like, "to him" (to Ema) Hatohara was the best sniper. But like to me, i would like to think Asuma was and will be the best sniper... Tho Touma probably surpassed him in some aspects, and their skill level's probably very close... Like Asuma's still best at (for example) shooting "through" buildings, and calculating the "change" in trajectory (angles) of your bullets, when it goes through.... That's way more than "just" shooting at a target... I mean Touma, too probably can do it to some degree. But Asuma can shoot through "multiple layers"... seems so OP to me...

Before the BBF came out, I also thought that Azuma is better than Hatohara but after looking at BBF, Hatora is better than Azuma in terms of skill. Hatohara got 14 while Azuma got 10. Also, Touma got 13, Narasaka got 12, Hanzaki got 11, Ema got 10.

NOTE: What Ashihara meant by skill is "the accuracy and precision of attack and defence".

Also, I think Ninoniya Squad can manage to become A-rank without Hatohara because Tsuji and Inukai are also master class on their on.

May 31, 2016 5:00 AM

#207

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[quote=Botato message=46263147]The rest of your post tells me you still don't have a clear understanding of basic mechanics in this manga as well as the timeline.
Hatohara left less than a year ago, as said earlier exact time given in the manga is 9 months. Further proof is Kazama squad being the ones sent to pursue Hatohara, but "3 years ago" Utagawa and Kikuchihara weren't even official agents yet./quote]
Lol, no need to insult me... I mean, give me the chapter, it tells the "exact" date... I know it was about a year ago, or 3 years. The 3 year thing was the "last invasion" date probably... Not everyone who reads WT remembers these things... No need for "don't have a clear understanding of basic mechanics in this manga" lol... 1 date, is not the "basic mechanics of this manga"...
That being said, I was thinking of when Osamu first joined Border. That was at least 6 months before Yuma came (the beginning of WT). And also, Osamu "struggled" to enter WT, even before that 6 months. Cause he kept failing at "each selection"... Did he manage it in his 2nd try? or what was it... But basically there's only 3 try's? each year? So like that's at least 4 extra months. 6 + 4 = 10 months. And the beginning of the manga was about 2 months from now? Is that a year? Well, who knows. You go calculate it... But basically Osamu started trying out for Border, after Chika bro left... That's close to a year, even if you say 9 months; how does that "dis-agree" with my theories? That was still 9 months ago. Everyone's improving. Who knows what Nino's "skill number" was 9 months ago... Sure, he probably was (i dont remember) still #1 rank shooter... My point was that 62 - 51 = 9 was, less than 9 then. If Hatohara didn't disappear, her skills would have improved (it probably improved in the Neighbor World). So when it updates, the difference between her skill level and Nino's will be less than that number 9.

Also losing an OP sniper, like you said the "best shooter" sniper in Border, from your team, Nino team definitely lost a "big part" of their team. How does this point also "hinge" on that 9 months thing?

Basically, you found 1 mistake, and just said, everything i say is "against the very mechanics of this manga"... I'm guessing LuzNight was your friend? So you wanted to defend her/ him? Probably him... (putting on a female profile pic, how repulsive for a man to do...) Good for you... Just try to use "more" than "9 months, not 3 years" next time. They're still both pretty long periods of time.

Botato said:
And no, there isn't a limit on Lead Bullets. She can shoot as many as she like, they will just be too slow and easy to dodge. Using Egret is an even worse idea because it's not as fast as Lightning so it will be that much easier for enemies to dodge.

Did i say there was a limit on Lead Bullets? I'm talking about trion... Jeez... You use your "trioin" to "make bullets"; if you don't know yet. So, i just said it could be "possible" to use most of your trion, to bring out enough power for a couple of shots... Just saying, cause with enough trion power, you can fire like Chika... So, it's not like the guns have a "trion limit" it can absorb for each shot, and that's not enough to fire lead bullets. Firing lead bullets would be directly connected to how much trion you can put into firing it, at that moment.
Again, just saying it "could be possible". Maybe it can't, we'll see. (do you understand what "possible" means? or "Maybe"? Yes, it's "conjecture"... But you can't prove otherwise, other than saying it's "conjecture"... And i know it's "conjecture"... lol? If it actually goes against something already mentioned in the manga, please do tell; i don't mind those...)

Botato said:
We actually don't know that yet. The only teams that were once A-Rank and dropped down only happened because of rule breaking, nothing to do with Rank Wars.
Edit: That would be the logical way to go about it, but we'll see.
I personally hope no one drops down, with the excuse being that too many people are applying to join Border so there should be more slots for A-Ranks.

Let me go see... I thought i read that somewhere... I'll come back, if i find it...

With the "increase" in the number of "new applicants" and "new agents". And also with the upcoming "Big Away Mission", they could increase the "number" of A-rank teams (agents). I mean, with lots of A-rank members being sent away, we need "defense" A-rankers. So maybe "new" ones will do.
As i understand it, Border has a "pyramid" type ranking system. So it's all "proportional". So with the increase in number of overall agents, maybe the number of not only A-rank agents, but also B-rank agents might add up as well.

Commentator1May 31, 2016 5:04 AM

May 31, 2016 5:14 AM

#208

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the_fools said:
Before the BBF came out, I also thought that Azuma is better than Hatohara but after looking at BBF, Hatora is better than Azuma in terms of skill. Hatohara got 14 while Azuma got 10. Also, Touma got 13, Narasaka got 12, Hanzaki got 11, Ema got 10.

NOTE: What Ashihara meant by skill is "the accuracy and precision of attack and defence".

Also, I think Ninoniya Squad can manage to become A-rank without Hatohara because Tsuji and Inukai are also master class on their on.

Yeah, i don't know much about Azuma. Maybe he's just not as "talented" and "gifted"... Also he probably was pretty "old" when he became a member? (he's already 25 now). And we know that in WT, it's easier to "improve" your "trion"? in your "teens"? Basically the younger you are. And after you get above 20... You basically can't improve... I don't know if that's your "trion amount"?... Your trion amount probably don't change much (so far as we know; unless in the future, there's other methods to do that in the Neighbor World or something...) But like "control over your trion"? I don't know... Something about trion's supposed to be able to improve when you're like in your teens or something. I believe that was some kind of explanation given, as to why Border new applicants must be young? and or "are young"...

As far as "shooting through buildings" tho... Asuma's supposed to be best :) I'll just remember that... Cause, going through buildings, it changes the trajectory of the bullets. So basically you have to study calculated the different "thicknesses" of buildings and stuff; and also the "density" of various materials, including wood, different types of metals... glasses etc;, Whole ton of things...

Yeah, Nino team could probably make it to "lower" A-ranks... Maybe... Nino's still #1 rank shooter, and also #2 in overall score? So, that's OP...
Though, the other 2 members of Nino, they are just "okay" in my opinion. Sure they have high scores... and everything. So far, we just haven't seen their "teamwork" or anything special about them... I mean who was the shooter? Inukai? Could Osamu take care of him, in 1vs1? Lol, right now probably not... But wasn't last time close?... Tho it wasn't 1vs1 last time... (Asuma shot Osamu but :( ... who knows what could have happened...)
If Osamu learns how to do some "Viper action"... It's possible to take down Inukai... ( at least that's my hope xD )

Commentator1May 31, 2016 5:18 AM

May 31, 2016 5:15 AM

#209

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That's not how stats work though. The total is a combined of different parameters that are inherently different depending on the position. There are also differences due to the character's style as well. Ninomiya for example has a lot of Trion and thus firepower so he doesn't bother with special tactics and just uses brute force. At the same time his Shield is powerful also because of his Trion, so he can block most attack and as such he doesn't bother with having great mobility. Snipers have greater Range stat by default for obvious reasons. Being a captain also requires decent Command stat. I don't understand your logic claiming Hatohara to be the 2nd most important just because her total score is high, that's way too much of a generalization. And by your logic Chika is the most important member of T-2 because she has a much higher total than both Osamu and Yuma.

Your amount of Trion = Trigger performance. That's how its always been. Using something like you're suggesting could be possible, but 1) it won't be practical (2 shots per day?) and 2) it would probably be similar to T-1 custom Triggers which are not allowed in Rank Wars. Border Triggers are designed to be efficient.

Also this is what you said:

Hatohara also did invent the Lead bullet + sniper gun thing... So even thought she didn't really use it, and can't use it Lightning + lead, like Chika can (not enough trion); i bet she could shoot 1 or 2 lead bullets "per match" (like 1 or 2 bullets for a day "limit" or something), if she used "eaglet"? Doesn't that like take less trion to use? And if she just shot 1 or 2 shots, not like "mass-destruction" style like Chika; maybe she could...

Where exactly did you say "charge up shots so they have more Trion for speed."
All I see here is you claiming Egret would be better because it uses less Trion, and Hatohara could get 2 shots per day or whatever.
Be more clear next time.

Edit: About Azuma, he isn't the best in terms of shooting skills but he has a variety of different skills that make him a top class sniper in his own right.
Also Trion ability, basically amount, is what improves with training before age 20.

BotatoMay 31, 2016 5:23 AM

May 31, 2016 6:13 AM

#210

the_fools

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Commentator1 said:
Nino's still #1 rank shooter, and also #2 in overall score? So, that's OP...
Though, the other 2 members of Nino, they are just "okay" in my opinion. Sure they have high scores... and everything. So far, we just haven't seen their "teamwork" or anything special about them... I mean who was the shooter? Inukai? Could Osamu take care of him, in 1vs1? Lol, right now probably not... But wasn't last time close?

Isn't he #1 shooter and #2 in overall because he have a lots of points? Then Tsuji and Inukai must be good because they have a lot of points.

They are considered as a master class because they also have a lot of points. And Tsuji's support ability is foremost among border, alongside Izumi and Tokieda. While Inukai bears the role of the balance in Ninomiya squad. His high level shooting skills help widen the scope of the squad's tactics. Also, Ashihara consider that Inukai easily deals with Mikumo's surprise attack. (Btw, this are from BBF).

May 31, 2016 6:26 AM

#211

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Botato said:
I don't understand your logic claiming Hatohara to be the 2nd most important just because her total score is high, that's way too much of a generalization. And by your logic Chika is the most important member of T-2 because she has a much higher total than both Osamu and Yuma.

Well, i don't really use those "point system". But you guys brought up, that Nino points were highest, and therefor Hatohara wasn't a vital part of her team...
With or without points, do you really think Hatohara's influence to her team's perfomance, was lower than those other 2? besides Nino? I mean, just give me your honest "opinion"...
And don't tell me "we don't know"... Because, as i said, this is all just my opinion to begin with... But if you really think Hatohara wasn't really part of her team, that it doesn't matter she's in Nino team or not, they would perform the same results... Then say so.

Botato said:
Your amount of Trion = Trigger performance. That's how its always been. Using something like you're suggesting could be possible, but 1) it won't be practical (2 shots per day?) and 2) it would probably be similar to T-1 custom Triggers which are not allowed in Rank Wars. Border Triggers are designed to be efficient.

I'm not talking about "custom Triggers". Okay let's just talk about, for example the "black Lightning" okay? Hatohara basically invented the thing, so she could have use it, if enough trion and all that... Okay. So when Hatohara used it, she couldn't use it due to insufficient trion right? But Chika, can. So if you just look at it from the perspective of the "gun", the more trion the user has, the more it can be "input". Correct? So, there's not really like a "limit" of trion you can "input" into the gun, and because that "limit" is so low that it can't shoot "lead bullets". Right? It's not like that at all.
So, ... In theory, Whatever Chika used, for each shot (for 1 bullet), if Hatohara can have that much trion. Just enough for that 1 or 2 shots... Then, she could shoot those 1 or 2 shots... The drawback would be, after those shots, her trion supply would be so low, that she wouldn't be able to use much else in other "trion usage" attack/ defense... and basically BO in time.
The "gunner" option, including snipers; the "bullets" are "made out of" trion... So, if your total trion is "enough" to shoot 1 or 2 shots; you should be able to.

I've never heard of "trion usage limit". Like you're saying "higher overall trion; higher limit on trion output/ trion usage" Correct? Don't let me put words into your mouth, if this is not what you're saying... I don't remember this ever being mentioned. But basically no one would follow this strategy, since they would want to be "efficient" enough to last, for the battle. But All I'm saying is, if "my theory" is correct, for someone crazy like Osamu, who's ready to die, for just that 1 last shot (like sacrfice...) to shoot that 1 bullet.... I'm just saying it may be possible... Maybe not...

Botato said:
Where exactly did you say "charge up shots so they have more Trion for speed."
All I see here is you claiming Egret would be better because it uses less Trion, and Hatohara could get 2 shots per day or whatever.
Be more clear next time.

No, I'm not saying "charge up for speed".... I just thought it might take less trion if you used Egred, instead of Lightning... Maybe I'm wrong.
Like with Ibis, Chika could do lead bullet... But it was indeed slow. Hatohara don't have the trion, but even for Chika, the speed isn't good. So Ibis is out of the question...
I was just trying to get Hatohara to be able to shoot a couple of shots, with lead bullet lol Egret, or Lightning's not really, my "main point".

Botato said:
Edit: About Azuma, he isn't the best in terms of shooting skills but he has a variety of different skills that make him a top class sniper in his own right.

Yeah, he's supposed to be a good strategist and all that right? Just he's "special". Not a "lost cause"... xD And also, never forget... if you have to shoot through buildings... He's the man... lol... (that sounds kind of desperate... but it's a "true power" of his...)

Botato said:
Also Trion ability, basically amount, is what improves with training before age 20.

Yes, so maybe that's why, like, some of these younger generation has taken over Azuma. He's supposed to be the "oldest"... "earliest" sniper... And with all his "calculative skills" and "mind set"; you would think "as a sniper", he shouldn't be able to lose to others but... Like "range" seems about equal to someone like Touma (both 10).
But basically, just comparing Azuma and Touma; it seems "trion" is a big part of the evaluation. And obviously the "skills" department; but i kind of link that with the trion, cause like you have more "options" to fight and grow skills and strategies, if you have more trion...

May 31, 2016 6:37 AM

#212

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the_fools said:
Isn't he #1 shooter and #2 in overall because he have a lots of points? Then Tsuji and Inukai must be good because they have a lot of points.
They are considered as a master class because they also have a lot of points. And Tsuji's support ability is foremost among border, alongside Izumi and Tokieda. While Inukai bears the role of the balance in Ninomiya squad. His high level shooting skills help widen the scope of the squad's tactics. Also, Ashihara consider that Inukai easily deals with Mikumo's surprise attack. (Btw, this are from BBF).

Well yes. Nino's #1 in points... Unless, there's some other OP shooter (with some special SE) that didn't care about their points... I don't know... But Nino #1 seems pretty legit.

I just don't know about the other 2. You look at their points from the Databook thing... And they're both lower than Hatohara...

Who's Tokieda's in Arashiyama unit tho? I mean we're talking about Nino squad? xD

They are just "okay"... I mean, when you say "master" you mean above 8000 points, don't you?
But to me, that seems to be like a "pre-requisite" of an A-rank. So, do they have enough "points" to be considered A-rank, as "individuals", yes. But they're not really high, "inside the A-rank"... They're just typical.

I mean, even someone like Arafune is "master" class in Sniper, and Attacker, and now trying to get the "gunner"? Not saying Arafune's bad or anything... But you know... Arafune team is B-rank and all... xD

May 31, 2016 6:50 AM

#213

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I repeat: I think Hatohara was useful to her team. I don't think the team would drop in rank as much as you're saying if she leaves though. But about stats, we usually compare separate parameters not the total score. So Hatohara has 14 in the parameter for (skill) which is the highest compared to all the other snipers, so she is the best sniper.

I'm not talking about "custom Triggers". Okay let's just talk about, for example the "black Lightning" okay? Hatohara basically invented the thing, so she could have use it, if enough trion and all that... Okay. So when Hatohara used it, she couldn't use it due to insufficient trion right? But Chika, can. So if you just look at it from the perspective of the "gun", the more trion the user has, the more it can be "input". Correct? So, there's not really like a "limit" of trion you can "input" into the gun, and because that "limit" is so low that it can't shoot "lead bullets". Right? It's not like that at all.
So, ... In theory, Whatever Chika used, for each shot (for 1 bullet), if Hatohara can have that much trion. Just enough for that 1 or 2 shots... Then, she could shoot those 1 or 2 shots... The drawback would be, after those shots, her trion supply would be so low, that she wouldn't be able to use much else in other "trion usage" attack/ defense... and basically BO in time.
The "gunner" option, including snipers; the "bullets" are "made out of" trion... So, if your total trion is "enough" to shoot 1 or 2 shots; you should be able to.

I've never heard of "trion usage limit". Like you're saying "higher overall trion; higher limit on trion output/ trion usage" Correct? Don't let me put words into your mouth, if this is not what you're saying... I don't remember this ever being mentioned. But basically no one would follow this strategy, since they would want to be "efficient" enough to last, for the battle. But All I'm saying is, if "my theory" is correct, for someone crazy like Osamu, who's ready to die, for just that 1 last shot (like sacrfice...) to shoot that 1 bullet.... I'm just saying it may be possible... Maybe not...

See, this is why I tell you to read BBF and some side materials. I'm honestly not trying to insult you, but really you have a lot of misconceptions about a lot of things. First of all she didn't "invent" Black Lightning. She was just the first to think of combining those two Triggers. Basically similar to Kageura's whip; he didn't invent Scorpion but he came up with the idea to use it like a whip.
And again it's not that Hatohara "couldn't shoot" LB, it's that the bullet speed wasn't fast enough because of her weak Trion, so it was not practical and the idea got thrown out.
Furthermore, I understand what you mean by having more Trion in one shot, but that isn't possible without a custom Trigger. All Triggers have fixed performance depending on the user's Trion; it can't be increased or decreased unless the Trigger itself is designed this way.
In short what you're saying is probably possible, but only as a custom Trigger. You normally can't willingly control how much Trion you put in each shot.

No, I'm not saying "charge up for speed".... I just thought it might take less trion if you used Egred, instead of Lightning... Maybe I'm wrong.
Like with Ibis, Chika could do lead bullet... But it was indeed slow. Hatohara don't have the trion, but even for Chika, the speed isn't good. So Ibis is out of the question...
I was just trying to get Hatohara to be able to shoot a couple of shots, with lead bullet lol Egret, or Lightning's not really, my "main point".

Well yeah I got that after your second post, it definitely wasn't clear in the first one though. We haven't gotten any info on Trion consumption for the Sniper rifles, however, each one has different abilities so my guess is they all consume the same amount it's just divided differently between speed/range/power.
Having said that, Egret increases range so it wouldn't be more useful than Lightning (when we're talking about Lead Bullet I mean, because of bullet speed, however with normal bullets it's situational and depends on what you need).
Anyway, I get your point clearly, but as I said she needs a custom Trigger for that, because if it was possible she would have already done that. It could be an interesting idea for the future though; sometimes Chika might need to control the amount of Trion per shot so a custom Trigger like that would be useful.

Yeah, he's supposed to be a good strategist and all that right? Just he's "special". Not a "lost cause"... xD And also, never forget... if you have to shoot through buildings... He's the man... lol... (that sounds kind of desperate... but it's a "true power" of his...

Yes he is the only one who is on par with Shinoda and Hyerin in being a good leader. From the ones we've seen so far I mean. But aside from that he has tons more experience and he is the one responsible for training snipers, so although he can't shoot as well as some of the other snipers he must be better than them at the other parts (hiding, choosing sniping locations, overall battle awareness, etc..)

Yes, so maybe that's why, like, some of these younger generation has taken over Azuma. He's supposed to be the "oldest"... "earliest" sniper... And with all his "calculative skills" and "mind set"; you would think "as a sniper", he shouldn't be able to lose to others but... Like "range" seems about equal to someone like Touma (both 10).
But basically, just comparing Azuma and Touma; it seems "trion" is a big part of the evaluation. And obviously the "skills" department; but i kind of link that with the trion, cause like you have more "options" to fight and grow skills and strategies, if you have more trion...

More or less yes. I think Azuma joined late anyway so he didn't get a chance to grow his Trion as much as possible, but that's besides the point.
However, Trion isn't everything because Teruya managed to take down Chika, so did Arafune, and Midorikawa who has 5 (I think) in Trion managed to damage Ranbanein who has 25 in Trion.

May 31, 2016 8:16 AM

#214

p-kun

Offline

Feb 2015

598

Wow, so many posts XD. I am slowly reading them as I commute.

the_fools said:

Also, I think Ninoniya Squad can manage to become A-rank without Hatohara because Tsuji and Inukai are also master class on their on.

Ninomiya team minus Hatohara already outperforms B-2, which is a former A-6. Even if they are not A ranked by name, they are already A ranked by merit.

Botato said:

Hatohara left less than a year ago, as said earlier exact time given in the manga is 9 months.

Hatohara left on 2 May, right after the team celebrated Inukai's birthday on 1 May (the photo Ninomiya showed was most likely Inukai's birthday photo), which was why her fake smile was a personal ire for Ninomiya because during Inukai's birthday, she made those fake smiles while planning to backstab her team in her head (check Chippo's analysis). Honestly, a lot of WT's characters and world building are told via profiles, Q&A, and side materials. And the wikia and Chippo's website have compilation of those, so... yeah, they are not hard to find.

After 2 May, there were 2 rank war seasons. We don't know yet if Ninomiya's new team (minus Hatohara) were allowed to attend those seasons because of investigations and punishments. Most people speculate that they could enter the rank wars, but were eternally not allowed to get to A rank and thus eternally B-1 thanks to the severe "violation". But my guess was that they couldn't enter the first season because of investigations and punishments. They entered the second season from the bottom but had to un-learn the habit of relying on their sniper and reformulate teamwork with just 3 people, and thus didn't manage to get to A rank in one season (couldn't defeat Miwa's team and Katagiri's team) but managed to secure B-1 starting position for the next season.

Just a side remark, I commend Botato's patience in correcting the misconceptions.

p-kunMay 31, 2016 8:24 AM

May 31, 2016 11:46 AM

#215

iKlinex

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May 2016

19

Commentator1 said:

iKlinex said:
Basic anti-sniper tactics still apply. Selecting low terrain, narrow paths, etc.
This might not be a problem since Chika can use lead hound (in the appropriate situation of course; sniping fundamentals!).

I'm wondering what Hyuse's trigger set will be like.

I'm think Viper oriented shooter since he was very accurate with reflecting shots back with Lampyris vs Reiji and Torimaru. The main Viper could be substituted with asteroid for raw power. Also, T2 is lacking in mid range power; not necessarily for just point scoring, but also more movement manipulation.

Lead Hound still isn't as awesome as it sounds... I mean, let's say Hound is shot at you, all you have to do is go around a corner? And the Hound will hit that corner right?
I mean, the Hound is not going to go "around" the corner (it's going to go straight to it's target). So terain is important. Also, the distance the Hound can be used is supposed to be low? (was it 30m ? or some other short distance).

Hyuse trigger set-up. Why do you have Viper, Shield double? xD
Maybe:
Main: Asteroid, Hound, Viper, Meteora
Sub: Shield, Bag Worm, Chameleon, Spider

Hound usually isn't used alone. In fact, I feel that hound is best use to move enemies into traps and pincer attacks. Lead hound is just a enhancement to this tactic since it's unblockable, therefore forcing enemies to run.

Your setup for Hyuse is weird. If he's gonna use chameleon, there should be an attacker trigger in the main for ambushes. Caeless already covered double shield.

I also can see Hyuse having an all rounder setup with scorpion and gunner triggers solely to give Kuga cover fire and follow up as necessary.

May 31, 2016 11:55 AM

#216

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Jul 2015

566

p-kun said:
Just a side remark, I commend Botato's patience in correcting the misconceptions.

Jeez... So you think Hatohara wasn't a "vital" part of her team either? I mean Nino's influence to his team as #1 shooter and the captain, is of course the most vital... But Hatohara's kind of Vice-President. Reyleigh to Gol D Rogers... Not only her points higher than the other 2... She was a sniper... So it balanced the team, and obviously Nino team was "much higher" in terms of strength....

Just saying "We don't know how much Hatohara influenced her team for sure"/ "it's all conjecture"; so therefor "she wasn't a vital part of Nino team"; is "correcting misconceptions"?
I don't have to look at the "scores"... to say (and know) that Hatohara was a "Huuge" part of Nino team, besides Nino himself of course....

Don't call, my point "Hatohara was a vital part of Nino team" a "misconception"... As it clearly is not... Just think for a moment... How much Hatohara would have influenced her team.
I mean if you were fighting against Nino team, in rank wars, Hatohara would be one of the first targets to aim for. Whether she was behind the scenes, shooting your team's weapons, or what not, was very important. So, she was a "vital" part of the team...
They wouldn't do that with Inukai or the other guy; unless their point was to "decrease" captain Nino's support, so you can gang on Nino alone, afterwards. Hatohara would be a "huuugeee" threat from Nino's team... There's nothing wrong with saying she was a "vital part" of her team...
Stop with the unreasonable, IL-logical, team bullying...
Just forget for a moment, that you are arguying with me... and think of what you're actually saying... "Hatohara wasn't a vital part of Nino team"... Really? Is that what you really think?

Commentator1May 31, 2016 12:18 PM

May 31, 2016 11:59 AM

#217

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Jul 2015

566

iKlinex said:
Your setup for Hyuse is weird.

What if:
Main: Shield, Viper, Hound, Spider
Sub: Shield, Meteora, Bag Worm, Asteroid

Could this be better?

I just think Hyuse would be a "power house" shooter... I dont' know. He's "supposed" to be smart and all, but... Like the fight with Jin and all, it seems he just likes to "over-power" his enemies... Although that fight, he was under "orders", maybe he has more to say, in strategy...
Also when he joins, he will have to do as Osamu says. I mean, Osamu's the leader after all... So, we don't really need a strategist. We just need some good "fire-power". On that end, i think Hyuse will use "Hound" a lot. Can you combine Hound + Meteora? Like you do with Viper + Meteora? Probably can, so maybe lots of Hound, plus some Hound + Meteora.
Also Spider + Meteora, for traps.

I think he'll have either Viper, or Asteroid... Maybe he doesn't need Viper as much; but is there anything else better suited for him?

Commentator1May 31, 2016 12:23 PM

May 31, 2016 12:29 PM

#218

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Apr 2016

139

Commentator1 said:

iKlinex said:
Your setup for Hyuse is weird.

What if:
Main: Shield, Viper, Hound, Spider
Sub: Shield, Meteora, Bag Worm, Asteroid

Could this be better?

I just think Hyuse would be a "power house" shooter... I dont' know. He's "supposed" to be smart and all, but... Like the fight with Jin and all, it seems he just likes to "over-power" his enemies... Although that fight, he was under "orders", maybe he has more to say, in strategy...
Also when he joins, he will have to do as Osamu says. I mean, Osamu's the leader after all... So, we don't really need a strategist. We just need some good "fire-power". On that end, i think Hyuse will use "Hound" a lot. Can you combine Hound + Meteora? Like you do with Viper + Meteora? Probably can, so maybe lots of Hound, plus some Hound + Meteora.
Also Spider + Meteora, for traps.

I think he'll have either Viper, or Asteroid... Maybe he doesn't need Viper as much; but is there anything else better suited for him?

This combo allows for composite bullets, and you can absolutely combine asteroid + Meteor and all of the shooter triggers, they can even combine with themselves (BBF source from Q&A).

What would Hyuse be using Spider for in your setup? Seems a bit redundant since Osamu will be using Spider, I think Chameleon is probably more likely (from your original setup).

May 31, 2016 5:26 PM

#219

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Jul 2015

566

Caeless said:
What would Hyuse be using Spider for in your setup? Seems a bit redundant since Osamu will be using Spider, I think Chameleon is probably more likely (from your original setup).

Meteora + Spider, for traps?
Osamu can't do that, since he sucks... Maybe he can? I got the impression that his trion was too low for Meteora...
But personally, i think Meteora could help Osamu's lack of trion? Cause it's supposed to be an "explosive power". I mean, so even with "small amount" of trion, and "small amount" of meteora, it would increase Osamu's fire power.
So, if Osamu can go the Meteora route; it's a whole different story.

May 31, 2016 6:44 PM

#220

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Apr 2016

139

Commentator1 said:

Caeless said:
What would Hyuse be using Spider for in your setup? Seems a bit redundant since Osamu will be using Spider, I think Chameleon is probably more likely (from your original setup).

Meteora + Spider, for traps?
Osamu can't do that, since he sucks... Maybe he can? I got the impression that his trion was too low for Meteora...
But personally, i think Meteora could help Osamu's lack of trion? Cause it's supposed to be an "explosive power". I mean, so even with "small amount" of trion, and "small amount" of meteora, it would increase Osamu's fire power.
So, if Osamu can go the Meteora route; it's a whole different story.

Based on what Kitora said, Meteora + Spider isn't an option for him. I agree it may be for Hyuse, but value wise, I personally think he'd do better with Chameleon. My recommended setup was a more shooter heavy role, that would allow him to specialize in combination bullets. The variety he'd be able to have would allow him to have a lot of surprises and options available to him. With his trion levels, he's at Nino power levels, so his gimlets would be extremely destructive.

But I see where you were going now and it makes a lot of sense.

May 31, 2016 8:01 PM

#221

iKlinex

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May 2016

19

Depending on Hyuse's position (shooter, all rounder) chameleon may or may not be used. Not to say that it's not useful, rather that slot can used for a different purposes like utility or more varied offence. I think the only members that run both stealth triggers are attackers.

Spider on Hyuse would not be a bad idea considering it allows T2 to have more map control and Hyuse would be able to create Metora traps if he equips Metora. While he crosses the map during rendezvous or repositioning, he can also place wires on the move effectively doubling efficiency.

Jun 1, 2016 4:31 AM

#222

Sedgewic

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Aug 2015

72

I don't know why people are so sure Hyuse will be a Shooter...it's more like he will be a all-rounder or a Gunner, because it's the position that T-2 doesn't have and Lampirys has a "shooter mode". What makes he maybe be a all-rounder is because his fight style with his Afto trigger has basics like Gunner and Shooter have, but the fact that he used scorpion in Galo arc, may hint he will use as well.

So more likely he will be a all-rounder or a Gunner, IN MY HUMBLE OPiNION

Jun 1, 2016 4:44 AM

#223

OneCommentary

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Oct 2015

117

Sedgewic said:
I don't know why people are so sure Hyuse will be a Shooter...it's more like he will be a all-rounder or a Gunner, because it's the position that T-2 doesn't have and Lampirys has a "shooter mode". What makes he maybe be a all-rounder is because his fight style with his Afto trigger has basics like Gunner and Shooter have, but the fact that he used scorpion in Galo arc, may hint he will use as well.

So more likely he will be a all-rounder or a Gunner, IN MY HUMBLE OPiNION

I agree. My opinion is Hyuse has a lot of chances to become an all-rounder.

I don'nt see him with guns because he has a very good control of triggers, and because that, shooter triggers seem more appropriate.

Jun 1, 2016 5:11 AM

#224

Sedgewic

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Aug 2015

72

OneCommentary said:

Sedgewic said:
I don't know why people are so sure Hyuse will be a Shooter...it's more like he will be a all-rounder or a Gunner, because it's the position that T-2 doesn't have and Lampirys has a "shooter mode". What makes he maybe be a all-rounder is because his fight style with his Afto trigger has basics like Gunner and Shooter have, but the fact that he used scorpion in Galo arc, may hint he will use as well.

So more likely he will be a all-rounder or a Gunner, IN MY HUMBLE OPiNION

I agree. My opinion is Hyuse has a lot of chances to become an all-rounder.

I don'nt see him with guns because he has a very good control of triggers, and because that, shooter triggers seem more appropriate.

When usgin Lampirys he used it like a Gunner to try shoot Chika (but was blocked by Osamu...

Aside from that he indeed has the trion conrol to be like Nino/Kako/Izumi and control bullets or to manipulate scorpion like border people do.

Jun 1, 2016 6:10 AM

#225

OneCommentary

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Oct 2015

117

Sedgewic said:

OneCommentary said:

I agree. My opinion is Hyuse has a lot of chances to become an all-rounder.

I don'nt see him with guns because he has a very good control of triggers, and because that, shooter triggers seem more appropriate.

When usgin Lampirys he used it like a Gunner to try shoot Chika (but was blocked by Osamu...

Aside from that he indeed has the trion conrol to be like Nino/Kako/Izumi and control bullets or to manipulate scorpion like border people do.

Yes, that's right. But he manipulate the Lampirys elements very well when he reflexed and shielded Renji's and Karasuma's shots. Well, it will not be a mistake if he become a gunner (or an all-rounder with guns), of course. Only I think it is a bit waste of talent.

Jun 1, 2016 9:03 AM

#226

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Apr 2016

139

I think people make the connection of him going the shooter route because shooting triggers, especially Viper, tend to have the flexibility that Lampyris has.

Gunner triggers are, generally, a fairly set mode, where as Shooter triggers allow for a lot of free form attack styles (delayed hound, delayed asteroid, viper variety, etc.)

It's also clear that Viper isn't cut out for everyone, and only the best (Izumi, Nasu) are able to bring out it's full potential. Lampyris is very much like Viper, in that it requires the user of the trigger to create a variety of objects/methods of attack, and use it in a sort of "Free form", creative way. This is something Hyuse is already trained to do, so it's easy to make the connection between him using Lampyris and him using shooter triggers.

He *could* be an all-rounder, but isn't that going to end up being Osamu's role? He already uses Raygust + asteroid, and they already have Yuma as their primary attacker. A solid mid-range combatant is what T-2 lacks.

Jun 1, 2016 10:19 AM

#227

iKlinex

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May 2016

19

Caeless said:
I think people make the connection of him going the shooter route because shooting triggers, especially Viper, tend to have the flexibility that Lampyris has.

Gunner triggers are, generally, a fairly set mode, where as Shooter triggers allow for a lot of free form attack styles (delayed hound, delayed asteroid, viper variety, etc.)

It's also clear that Viper isn't cut out for everyone, and only the best (Izumi, Nasu) are able to bring out it's full potential. Lampyris is very much like Viper, in that it requires the user of the trigger to create a variety of objects/methods of attack, and use it in a sort of "Free form", creative way. This is something Hyuse is already trained to do, so it's easy to make the connection between him using Lampyris and him using shooter triggers.

He *could* be an all-rounder, but isn't that going to end up being Osamu's role? He already uses Raygust + asteroid, and they already have Yuma as their primary attacker. A solid mid-range combatant is what T-2 lacks.

Summarized what I wanted to say. But will add that Osamu's asteroid is too weak to be considered a threat by most. With the addition of another member, his trigger setup is likely going to change

Jun 1, 2016 12:46 PM

#228

LuzNight

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Dec 2015

313

Commentator1 said:

LuzNight said:
Because I was only comparing them as both being members that left their team. Their individual strenght is meaningless in the point I made which is how you use logic best --> by removing as much specifications and singularity as possible in order to get a GENERAL RULE.

"individual strength doesn't matter"... ???? How does someone's "individual strength" doesn't affect their "influence" to their team???
You see? This is your so called logic... and train of though...

Nice one! Too bad it lacks any foundation.

What "foundation" do i need?
You saying Kakizaki is the reason, that proves that Hatohara wasn't a vital part of her team, IS the foundation... that says you are off the rails... I mean, you are connecting 2 things, that have NOTHING to do with each other... Don't you see it?...
[/quote]

You are the one who is connecting them! Like I already said in the quote you JUST used, I was comparing them to talk about what rules apply when a member leaves. That's it. Your are the only who speculates about Hatohara's strenght and use in Nino team and the only time I adressed that topic was to say you were basing your assumptions on misunderstood facts.

Jun 1, 2016 2:57 PM

#229

dizzyroboto

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Jan 2012

65

I was wondering... What if HQ allows Hyuse to join T-2 at the cost they don't ever participate in the rank wars again?
I mean, T-2 will have two neighbors (do we know any other Border Unit with a single neighbor in it?) and T-1 opened a precedent to them (for other reasons, but it's still a precedent...)

Jun 1, 2016 4:27 PM

#230

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Jul 2015

566

JCNSilva said:
I was wondering... What if HQ allows Hyuse to join T-2 at the cost they don't ever participate in the rank wars again?
I mean, T-2 will have two neighbors (do we know any other Border Unit with a single neighbor in it?) and T-1 opened a precedent to them (for other reasons, but it's still a precedent...)

Lol... What's the point of Hyuse joining then?
I mean he wants to go to the Neighbor World... On the Away Missions... That's why he would join in the first place.
If they can't do Rank Wars, would they still be able to be "Selected" for the "Away Mission"?

I don't see too much opposition from the HQ. I mean, they used Yuma "lie detector" SE for the "bug" from the other dead guy from Afto; and let Hyuse be in "Tamakoma"'s hands.
Also Jin already gave Hyues the option of taking back his "trigger"... At this point, if Hyuse can have his trigger back, isn't he already a "threat"? If he decides to betray?

So whether he becomes part of T-2, does it really matter? Cause if he wants to betray and hurt one of us; then he is already in a position he can.
I'm just saying there's no real difference in the "risk" whether he just be in Tamakoma, vs being an actual Agent.

The "biggest" thing is, no one really saw Hyuse. He fought with Reiji (from Tamakoma branch), and then Kasama. Then kind of "underground battle" with Jin. So no one will know Hyuse was part of the Invasion, so it won't bring panic, or "hate" from regular agents.

As long as HQ doesn't have a problem (Kido), everything's set. I'm sure Jin will go in and say something like "Kid, let Hyuse join T-2. He will become an aid to your future plans. My side effect tells me so!" and boom lol. Jin, with his SE... lol cracks me up..

I take, HQ letting Jin have Hyuse's "trigger", as almost like saying to Jin, do whatever the hell you want with Hyuse...

Commentator1Jun 1, 2016 4:33 PM

Jun 1, 2016 5:55 PM

#231

-jdj888-

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Feb 2016

187

My opinion about this " Hyuse joining T-2" thing is that I prefer Hyuse and Jin to form a new unit "temporily" until Hyuse will go back to Aftokrator. Imagine the two of them battling Tachikawa Unit or any elite Unit lol. Atleast HQ will be more comfortble with that arrangement that Hyuse teaming up with Jin than joining -T-2 because they know that Jin can always observe Hyuse's future actions by using his SE. Ashihara then...will troll and surprise us with the new T-2 member.XD

Jun 2, 2016 12:17 AM

#232

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Nov 2013

22774

-jdj888- said:
My opinion about this " Hyuse joining T-2" thing is that I prefer Hyuse and Jin to form a new unit "temporily" until Hyuse will go back to Aftokrator. Imagine the two of them battling Tachikawa Unit or any elite Unit lol. Atleast HQ will be more comfortble with that arrangement that Hyuse teaming up with Jin than joining -T-2 because they know that Jin can always observe Hyuse's future actions by using his SE. Ashihara then...will troll and surprise us with the new T-2 member.XD

A couple dozen chapters ago I wanted to see them work together, but then the scene after Reghi bailed out confirmed Hyuse will join T-2 ;_;

Jun 2, 2016 1:04 AM

#233