| Not sure if this is the right place for this topic, but since it's Fate related I felt it was relevant. Just to get it out of the way, I don't personally think Nasu is sexist but there is a reason why I created this thread. I recently got into a back and forth on twitter with people I am convinced are Social Justice Warriors (they did not specifically say that they identified as such, this was the impression I got). Now despite the extremely unpleasant back and forth of being talked down to and condescended towards, I am not going to reveal who these people are or link to the actual conversation as I don't want to harass anyone. As a result I am gonna paraphrase as best I can to give you an idea. The first tweet that started this was basically asking where the "magical broom that swept Nasu's sexism" is as he wanted such a mystical item. Reading this I assumed the person had only seen the Deen anime considering Shirou's repeated "girls can't fight" mantra. So I simply responded that Shirou doesn't say any of that in UBW or HF, that it was only in the Fate route and that Nasu isn't sexist. Clearly I had opened a can of worms that I now regret when engaging this person. Soon after the person responded saying that it isn't simply Shirou, that Sakura doesn't exist outside of a sexist/reductive obsession with Shirou. I simply responded with Sakura is a deeply disturbed and broken person, why is it shocking that she's obsessive? This is when this person's friend caught wind of the discussion and decided to jump in defense of his friend and when things got especially hairy and annoying. Keep in mind this is going over twitter, probably one of the absolute worst places to have any meaningful kind of dialogue. The new person jumped in saying that Nasu wrote Sakura specifically to be this broken person to glorify Shirou as this great person. I retorted with that not being right because Nasu wrote Shirou as this almost equally broken and disturbed person, so how can than be glorifying him? That point got ignored and instead the conversation went into another direction. Now the original poster brought up something that I feel is out of context. I want to state that it's been about 4 years since I read the VN so ostensibly my memory of it isn't completely accurate so I am sure some of the priests most likely will clarify. She mentions how Shinji assaulted Mitsuzuri and that Shirou said that she probably deserved it and that it will teach her a lesson. Now I don't remember this, but this seems out of character for Shirou. I mean, this is coming from the guy who talks about how he wants everyone to be happy and how he wants to save everyone. If I had to guess it was Shirou humoring Shinji but again, I don't remember. Since I was getting barraged by both of these people at once with their comments, it became increasingly difficult to properly respond to them and they kept bringing up other points I didn't even get a chance to respond to. One of them being how half the cast wants to rape Saber. Apparently Gilgamesh threatened to rape Saber, Illya ordered Berserker to rape her. Again, I don't remember either of these events and may be taken out of context or just as badly, fabricated but I can't say for sure. In that same post however, something this person said that was complete bullshit for sure was that Kotomine killed his wife out of cruelty. First off, no he didn't, he wanted to but she died of a disease, but secondly how is that sexist? Kotomine doesn't care about gender, he didn't want to kill her because she was a woman he wanted to do it because he loves the beauty of tragedy. There was some other stuff like how Shinji raping Sakura was for shock value. Shirou not allowing Saber to fight being sexist, Shirou's flaws are ignored in the end because the strengths of his ideals win out which was remarked as gross because it's a "he's always right power fantasy" and that every female character exists to empower him alone. It was at this point where I just couldn't take it anymore and told them that it was impossible to have a proper discussion while they were double teaming me on twitter and I respectfully bowed out. In poor taste they continued to bait me after I said that, something that particularly perturbed me. Now I am sorry if this post seems whiny and bitchy and butthurt about an argument I got into, however Nasu is one of my favorite writers and it honestly made me sick to my stomach to see him get misrepresented like this. You guys can consider this a sort of catharsis for me in trying to get over this. It might seem petty to some and it may be but hopefully it can at least inspire some interesting and most importantly civil discussion as those people did not give me that courtesy. So I ask, is Nasu truly sexist? The points made, do they hold weight? Or are these the ramblings of SJW's grasping at straws in order to support their worldview? I would love to hear what everyone else has to say about this. |
ShintaiOct 12, 2014 11:17 AM
| Is there a tl;dr version? |
 |
| "Shirou's flaws are ignored in the end because the strengths of his ideals win out which was remarked as gross because it's a "he's always right power fantasy" and that every female character exists to empower him alone." At this point it became blatantly obvious they know nothing about F/SN. So yeah, just ramblings of SJW's grasping at straws in order to support their worldview. stAtic91 said: Is there a tl;dr version? Some people took things out of context, misunderstood the story and thought they saw sexism because of things that weren't sexist but they missed that somehow. |
| Did not read first post, too long. No. He is not. In all of his stories, the female characters are VERY powerful, empowered, individual people capable of doing their own. Tsukihime outright parodies the "usual visual novel protagonist antics" by outright showcasing of how FUCKED UP that is. A lot of people who call him that misunderstand Shirou's character and personality in FSN and take what Shirou says at face value. |
 |
| I don't think he is. He just failed at certain points in writing F/SN which makes him come off as such. Considering he admitted his shortcomings and made it clear that it wasn't his intention to be sexist, I don't really have a big problem with the whole thing. At least as far as the Fate route Saber stuff is concerned. |
 |
CookingPriest said: Did not read first post, too long. No. He is not. In all of his stories, the female characters are VERY powerful, empowered, individual people capable of doing their own. Tsukihime outright parodies the "usual visual novel protagonist antics" by outright showcasing of how FUCKED UP that is. A lot of people who call him that misunderstand Shirou's character and personality in FSN and take what Shirou says at face value. Lol, sorry for the long post, but there was a lot to go over |
HereticPriest said: No as stated this was a back and forth that happened over twitter with some random people I never met before.Did you read this complain about Shirou on tumblr? |
Shintai said: HereticPriest said: No as stated this was a back and forth that happened over twitter with some random people I never met before.Did you read this complain about Shirou on tumblr? Should have read the whole, instead of just skimming through the thread. |
 |
| If Nasu was sexist why did both his first written (Mahoyo) and first published (KNK) stories have strong female lead characters, and the former story have , while if anything the latter has a weak male protagonist compared to it's female protagonist? Lol n00bs. |
| There's nothing wrong of skimming those arguments. Nasu being sexist is as ridiculous as Joss Whedon being sexist/racist and my mind just insta-ignores that. InsertPriestHere said: If Nasu was sexist why did both his first written (Mahoyo) and first published (KNK) stories have strong female lead characters, and the former story have , while if anything the latter has a weak male protagonist compared to it's female protagonist? Lol n00bs. B-b-but the male protagonist is always right!~~ A-a-and she still listens to him!~~ |
|
InsertPriestHere said: If Nasu was sexist why did both his first written (Mahoyo) and first published (KNK) stories have strong female lead characters, and the former story have , while if anything the latter has a weak male protagonist compared to it's female protagonist? Lol n00bs. Honestly the more I reflect on Nasu's work the more I feel he creates some of the more independent and strong women, Shiki particularly being a shining example where she's moreso picking up Kokuto's slack. |
| sexist is a common buzzword nowadays. disturbingly so. |
|
Shintai said: She mentions how Shinji assaulted Mitsuzuri and that Shirou said that she probably deserved it and that it will teach her a lesson. Now I don't remember this, but this seems out of character for Shirou. I mean, this is coming from the guy who talks about how he wants everyone to be happy and how he wants to save everyone. If I had to guess it was Shirou humoring Shinji but again, I don't remember. First of all, it was Rider, not Shinji. Second, this is a common line that gets misinterpreted (no, it's not a mistranslation). Shirou doesn't mean Ayako needs some good old raping, he said it's more feminine to run away than trying to fight the one who assaulted her. Okay, this still is only a tiny bit better and personally I still find this line stupid, but this doesn't raise any eyebrows in Japan. If one wants to criticize someone being sexist, criticize Japan. Also, read this: Arashi_Leonhart said: Section V: Shirou is Sexist Shintai said: Apparently Gilgamesh threatened to rape Saber, Illya ordered Berserker to rape her. Again, I don't remember either of these events and may be taken out of context or just as badly, fabricated but I can't say for sure. Gil always threatens to rape Saber, tht's hardly anything new. It's part of his character. I do remember Ilya saying that line. Shintai said: There was some other stuff like how Shinji raping Sakura was for shock value. Shirou not allowing Saber to fight being sexist, Shirou's flaws are ignored in the end because the strengths of his ideals win out which was remarked as gross because it's a "he's always right power fantasy" and that every female character exists to empower him alone. Everyone who paid attention in Fate knows that his "Girls shouldn't fight" shtick is some bs he came up with. It has more to do with his mentality and his ideals to protect and save everyone. If it calms you down, I don't think at all that Nasu is sexist. I respect this man for how much thought he is giving to this particular topic. Interview: |
CapsuleCoreOct 12, 2014 11:34 AM
HereticPriest said: .........very much sosexist is a common buzzword nowadays. disturbingly so. |
| "Sexist" is to the double-standardists, as "fascist" is to putin. i.e. the word's usage is a template to descibe anything that the user of the word does subjectively not like. |
 |
| Maybe Ilya meant rape like a gamer. "That was a stomp battle." "Yeah we raped them." Lol. |
Shintai said: Not sure if this is the right place for this topic, but since it's Fate related I felt it was relevant. Just to get it out of the way, I don't personally think Nasu is sexist but there is a reason why I created this thread. I recently got into a back and forth on twitter with people I am convinced are Social Justice Warriors (they did not specifically say that they identified as such, this was the impression I got). Now despite the extremely unpleasant back and forth of being talked down to and condescended towards, I am not going to reveal who these people are or link to the actual conversation as I don't want to harass anyone. As a result I am gonna paraphrase as best I can to give you an idea. The first tweet that started this was basically asking where the "magical broom that swept Nasu's sexism" is as he wanted such a mystical item. Reading this I assumed the person had only seen the Deen anime considering Shirou's repeated "girls can't fight" mantra. So I simply responded that Shirou doesn't say any of that in UBW or HF, that it was only in the Fate route and that Nasu isn't sexist. Clearly I had opened a can of worms that I now regret when engaging this person. Soon after the person responded saying that it isn't simply Shirou, that Sakura doesn't exist outside of a sexist/reductive obsession with Shirou. I simply responded with Sakura is a deeply disturbed and broken person, why is it shocking that she's obsessive? This is when this person's friend caught wind of the discussion and decided to jump in defense of his friend and when things got especially hairy and annoying. Keep in mind this is going over twitter, probably one of the absolute worst places to have any meaningful kind of dialogue. The new person jumped in saying that Nasu wrote Sakura specifically to be this broken person to glorify Shirou as this great person. I retorted with that not being right because Nasu wrote Shirou as this almost equally broken and disturbed person, so how can than be glorifying him? That point got ignored and instead the conversation went into another direction. Now the original poster brought up something that I feel is out of context. I want to state that it's been about 4 years since I read the VN so ostensibly my memory of it isn't completely accurate so I am sure some of the priests most likely will clarify. She mentions how Shinji assaulted Mitsuzuri and that Shirou said that she probably deserved it and that it will teach her a lesson. Now I don't remember this, but this seems out of character for Shirou. I mean, this is coming from the guy who talks about how he wants everyone to be happy and how he wants to save everyone. If I had to guess it was Shirou humoring Shinji but again, I don't remember. Since I was getting barraged by both of these people at once with their comments, it became increasingly difficult to properly respond to them and they kept bringing up other points I didn't even get a chance to respond to. One of them being how half the cast wants to rape Saber. Apparently Gilgamesh threatened to rape Saber, Illya ordered Berserker to rape her. Again, I don't remember either of these events and may be taken out of context or just as badly, fabricated but I can't say for sure. In that same post however, something this person said that was complete bullshit for sure was that Kotomine killed his wife out of cruelty. First off, no he didn't, he wanted to but she died of a disease, but secondly how is that sexist? Kotomine doesn't care about gender, he didn't want to kill her because she was a woman he wanted to do it because he loves the beauty of tragedy. There was some other stuff like how Shinji raping Sakura was for shock value. Shirou not allowing Saber to fight being sexist, Shirou's flaws are ignored in the end because the strengths of his ideals win out which was remarked as gross because it's a "he's always right power fantasy" and that every female character exists to empower him alone. It was at this point where I just couldn't take it anymore and told them that it was impossible to have a proper discussion while they were double teaming me on twitter and I respectfully bowed out. In poor taste they continued to bait me after I said that, something that particularly perturbed me. Now I am sorry if this post seems whiny and bitchy and butthurt about an argument I got into, however Nasu is one of my favorite writers and it honestly made me sick to my stomach to see him get misrepresented like this. You guys can consider this a sort of catharsis for me in trying to get over this. It might seem petty to some and it may be but hopefully it can at least inspire some interesting and most importantly civil discussion as those people did not give me that courtesy. So I ask, is Nasu truly sexist? The points made, do they hold weight? Or are these the ramblings of SJW's grasping at straws in order to support their worldview? I would love to hear what everyone else has to say about this. I read that bolded part and I DIED. Though, it IS true: Caster, Gil, Deermud, Shirou, Rin, Iri, Lancelot, Bedi-bedi....I could name more, but I'll go overboard~~ Also, no Nasu isn't sexist, it just seems that way - coming from a person who the sexism is supposedly aimed at. NO, not at all, we SHOULD all know that the sexist stuff in Fate was by accident. And Fate/Stay Night has the Main with three love interests, some of the stuff could be misunderstood by people, when you look at it... |
The sun is a deadly laser |
InsertPriestHere said: Maybe Ilya meant rape like a gamer. "That was a stomp battle." "Yeah we raped them." Lol. Ilya said: Right? I won't let anyone escape my forest. Yeah, I'll give you Rin and Saber. Kill them or rape them, you can do whatever you want with them. Sure she did. Let's go along with that. |
CorePriest said: Interesting.*Giant tl;dr wot* I don't know much about Japanese culture, but some of this sounds just as a misinterpretation as calling Shirou sexist. Interesting read nonetheless. |
|
CorePriest said: InsertPriestHere said: Maybe Ilya meant rape like a gamer. "That was a stomp battle." "Yeah we raped them." Lol. Ilya said: Right? I won't let anyone escape my forest. Yeah, I'll give you Rin and Saber. Kill them or rape them, you can do whatever you want with them. Sure she did. Let's go along with that. See? She's being nice! She says he doesn't have to kill them, only beat them up, like rape them. Bam, bam, left hook, right. As a side note, would Berserker even feel any kind of sexual urge being.....Berserker? And how do you remember each line, I mean dayum, there's like 750k words or something. |
| Yeah I had to explain the ayako "joke" to a lot of people in last year. And yes its same way as concept of death - its something that is foreign to western culture. |
|
InsertPriestHere said: CorePriest said: Sure she did. Let's go along with that. See? She's being nice! She says he doesn't have to kill them, only beat them up, like rape them. Bam, bam, left hook, right. As a side note, would Berserker even feel any kind of sexual urge being.....Berserker? And how do you remember each line, I mean dayum, there's like 750k words or something. I actually extracted the text files and removed all unnecessary stuff. Then I opened the Fate route and ctrl+f'd "rape" in Notepad (it's easier if one vaguely remembers where Ilya could have said that). And I don't think Berserker feels any sexual... urge. Also, his D is probably six feet long. |
| I'd like to say thank you especially to CorePriest, your post was a great read and I am starting to feel a lot better about the whole exchange. I would have thought that I wouldn't be bothered by things like this anymore, I dunno I guess when it comes to something I feel so passionate about, I take it more to heart. Really enjoying all the posts in the thread, given me good laughs and things to ponder. |
| I do find the whole, Shirou being sexist argument in the Fate route to be kind of funny. Considering it's just an excuse he comes up with so he can be the one who saves people and that he realizes how much of an idiot he has been roughly halfway through the route. Also, he's pretty much perfectly fine with Saber being his servant/fighting in battles in the other two routes. As far as Nasu himself? Seriously? He's wrote some of the more empowered and competent female characters I've experienced during my time with Anime/Manga/Visual Novels. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
insan3priest said: I do find the whole, Shirou being sexist argument in the Fate route to be kind of funny. Considering it's just an excuse he comes up with so he can be the one who saves people and that he realizes how much of an idiot he has been roughly halfway through the route. Also, he's pretty much perfectly fine with Saber being his servant/fighting in battles in the other two routes. As far as Nasu himself? Seriously? He's wrote some of the more empowered and competent female characters I've experienced during my time with Anime/Manga/Visual Novels. Its not like its even HIDDEN depth. Shirou VERY clearly states it all in his inner monologue. |
|
WrongPriest said: @Core that was actually a very good read, that scene with Ayako stumped me for a second but i always passed it off as a something that didn't translate well (People die when they are killed and all that.) @Shintai You did well defending our nasu, but in arguments/discussions like that a 2 on 1 is rarely productive let alone winnable. On twitter no less. Haha, I did what I could but the combination of being double teamed on twitter plus the obnoxious condescension made it extremely difficult to make any sort of meaningful point without feeling like I was being quilted into feeling like I was some sort of sexist monster....... shit sucked man. |
| I dont have anything like Core posted so I will just be a dick.:P Your fault for attempting a discussion with SJWs. |
FakePriest said: I dont have anything like Core posted so I will just be a dick.:P Your fault for attempting a discussion with SJWs. I wasn't sure that they were at first, it became clear to me after it was too late =( |
Shintai said: FakePriest said: I dont have anything like Core posted so I will just be a dick.:P Your fault for attempting a discussion with SJWs. I wasn't sure that they were at first, it became clear to me after it was too late =( I actually usually just debate them to death. |
|
| Hmm... What are SJWs? |
|
BotatoPriest said: Hmm... What are SJWs? Derogatory term for people you disagree with when it comes to gender. |
|
WrongPriest said: BotatoPriest said: Hmm... What are SJWs? Social Justice Warriors, It's the first time I've heard of it too lol Because its not a real term and should not really be used. |
|
| The only guilty verdict I'll give to Nasu about sex is the h-scenes in the VN, but that's irrelevant. |
 |
BotatoPriest said: Stay away from them as if they are ebola,cancer and HIV all in one.Hmm... What are SJWs? |
Shintai said: FakePriest said: I dont have anything like Core posted so I will just be a dick.:P Your fault for attempting a discussion with SJWs. I wasn't sure that they were at first, it became clear to me after it was too late =( Could have pointed out Shiki and Aoko and asked them to explain how they're sexist, since it seems they can't understand Shirou. It would have gotten an amusing response at least. |
BotatoPriest said: Hmm... What are SJWs? Stay away from tumblr. That's all you need to know. |
WrongPriest said: CookingPriest said: I actually usually just debate them to death. This is what created the monster we see before us. He knows no pleasure in joy, only pain. That is the only part for the Priests of the Kotomine Church to walk. |
CookingPriest said: Derogatory term for people you disagree with when it comes to gender. WrongPriest said: Social Justice Warriors, It's the first time I've heard of it too lol FakePriest said: Stay away from them as if they are ebola,cancer and HIV all in one. GarPriest said: Stay away from tumblr. That's all you need to know. Uhhhh... I see. Should probably stay away then @_@ |
|
BotatoPriest said: Uhhhh... I see. Should probably stay away then @_@ Yes, yes you should |
|
WrongPriest said: I demand a lawyer! Do you |
| They're basically delusional people that think they're fighting for equal rights, when they're simply internet bullies that guilt you into thinking you're some sort of evil person for not realizing things that are "obviously" sexist, misogynistic, trans-phobic and any other sort of related term. They nitpick, take things out of context and are generally some of the most annoying and obnoxious individuals you could possibly meet. |
WrongPriest said: CorePriest said: And I don't think Berserker feels any sexual... urge. Also, his D is probably six feet long. Mana transfer may be tricky... better use dolphins. Or maybe...BURDS!! Shape ist LEBEN!! |
The sun is a deadly laser |
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