i have seen many people call anime "childish and immature" after only watching mainstream ones

@Stanis150 Are you seriously implying that "kid characters = childish"? It's also not really about saving the "world", but saving themselves. Even though it did turn into a sort of world-saving at the end (saving from the protagonist, that is), it's core theme is still "freedom".

@Stanis150 Are you seriously implying that "kid characters = childish"? It's also not really about saving the "world", but saving themselves. Even though it did turn into a sort of world-saving at the end (saving from the protagonist, that is), it's core theme is still "freedom".

@SoumyaUkil73 "kid characters = childish" is usually true. Child characters don't have the life experience to not be childish. At least not without a massive dissonance in the plot, like how the mecha genre always shoves kids in weapons of mass destructions, entirely ruining any believability.

Also AoT is really just a super power shounen, and trying to shoehorn some "2deep4you" messaging in season 4 actively backfired.

@SoumyaUkil73 No it's not like that, but when mostly cast is a children - is a very big indicator. It's definitely "mature" enough in compere with mostly anime, but not in general to me. AoT is much more close to something like Harry Potter rather to something like Breaking Bad - that is my point.

@Stanis150

Yeah, this much I can agree with, but Harry Potter isn't "childish" either, though I do feel AOT is a bit more mature than that. My guess is the people OP is talking about either haven't watched AOT or are intentionally trolling/have a stereotype against anime in general.

@SoumyaUkil73 Harry Potter is also literally a book for kids.
The first 3 especially, those were not that good even when I read them as an actual kid, and I read the entire series 7 times.

@Killjoy_Kora what you think is completely, totally irrelevant vs. what the internet thinks. The internet wins over you like the mount everest wins over the mariana's trenches.

@ProudElitist What a completely vacuous statement. Surely we aren't on a website about having opinions about anime. That would be absurd. Fuckin clown.

@BilboBaggins365

Hmm, my question to that is, why does immature and non-adult media have to go hand in hand?

Take for example Banana Fish, a shoujo, so target audience teens, vs Family Guy, targer audience adults (basically the equivalent of a seinen), which of these 2 would you say is more mature?

And please don't make it about "oh girls are more mature than boys that's why there's mature shoujo", no, i just picked the most blatent examples i could think of, there's plenty of more neuanced things i could've used


I have no doubt different writing styles are used to appeal to different target audiences, but again, what does writing style have to do with how mature the story/themes are?


Hence my point wasn't about not liking a certain style, it was about looking down on it

@Stanis150 Yeah I don't disagree. I mean sure you can always throw out works, that can compete with adult literature, film etc, however, there is a reason those works are often cited...they usually are the exceptions to the rule.

The reality is, by %, there aren't a lot of works like Legend of the Galactic Heroes or Monster or Ghost in the Shell. The vast majority of works have always been targeted at a YA audience, or at least feel like they are (including many works that are in older demographics). And while, I may have issues with the over dominance of the YA fantasy, in anime, there isn't anything wrong with YA esque stories, and I think most people can enjoy them to some degree.

Really you just need to stop caring. "Yeah I enjoy my teen pulp stories, why do you care?" That should be the response. Don't be insecure about it. I read a lot of pulp, watch anime, play video games, etc. I have read classics and I do want to become more of a film buff (for my own enjoyment). That said, I think most would consider my tastes in media to be pretty pulpy, and "unintellectual" which is fine. I don't engage in entertainment to be smart, or be seen that way. If I want to actually gain knowledge I am going to read actual non fiction, not engage with entertainment.

.....It's just factual. Immature, and non adult media, still can have interesting themes or depth, that doesn't make it actual adult media. It's the style of writing that is very different. Death Note can have depth, however, how it is written very different from something like Crime and Punishment or Godfather.

When you look at the number of works, that come out on average, ti's mostly YA media. Plus while seinen works, do attempt to hit on older demographics, I really think there are a lot of works, in that space, that you could market as YA literature or New Adult literature (YA styled writing aimed at adults), over in the West. I mean again, that's fine, I enjoy YA, that's why I am still here. Still, if someone hates that style of writing, factually the amount of anime that will appeal to them is limited.

You do need to have an inner kid/teen to stay in this medium for the long haul.

AOT, a lot of blood and death and it has an ethical questionable end. Those who think anime is for children surely can't call AOT a series for children.

Here the discussion falls a bit, Certain Non-Fiction Books can be YA in Tone Just think of some books Editions dedicated to American Serial Killers like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy (Depending on the Writer in question) can or not having a YA Feeling Apart from what is intended to make the reader susceptible to the facts that happened in the Reality.



This Is simply Fake. Banana fish has It is Understanding of the World but in Its Own.

@SoumyaUkil73 "kid characters = childish" is usually true. Child characters don't have the life experience to not be childish. At least not without a massive dissonance in the plot, like how the mecha genre always shoves kids in weapons of mass destructions, entirely ruining any believability.

Also AoT is really just a super power shounen, and trying to shoehorn some "2deep4you" messaging in season 4 actively backfired.

@SoumyaUkil73 "kid characters = childish" is usually true. Child characters don't have the life experience to not be childish. At least not without a massive dissonance in the plot, like how the mecha genre always shoves kids in weapons of mass destructions, entirely ruining any believability.

Also AoT is really just a super power shounen, and trying to shoehorn some "2deep4you" messaging in season 4 actively backfired.

@jacobPOL Never giving up is like a Pokémon tier messaging lol
There is a lot of pseudo intellectual rambling in this show that's for sure, but it's more of a "I'm 14 and this is deep" sort of thing.

I am aware of that lol. I mean there is a big difference between a Feudal Society, and my Usbore Children's history books, on the Middle Ages, that I still have...somewhere. I wasn't talking about YA vs Adult. I am just stating, that I think engaging in media, to become "smarter" is a dumb reason to engage with media. If I want to learn about the world, I am just going to read accredited books....about the world.

No? The focus is really on the relationship between Ashe and Eiji. Every story of course has discussion about their wider world, however, the focus is different. YA works tend to focus more on the relationships side of things (can be friends, romantic interests etc). I mean this is pretty subjective regardless, so say this is "fake" is kinda nonsense lol. I am just giving the perspective of myself, and people I have talked to about this matter. On average, YA media in this industry is very relationship focused. Banana Fish also isn't a typical shojo work regardless, and is a series I would recommend to someone more skeptical of anime as a medium.

I am talking about the aggregate, and how long someone probably will stay invested in the medium. Banana Fish isn't the average shojo, Kimi ni Todoke is.

@JaniSIr Just because something has a kid as a cast does not mean childish. Look at hunter x hunter for example, series filled with grusome violence, feautiring body horror, themes of morality what is right and wrong, revenge, moral grey area, sacrifice, the meaning of life, and more.


https://imgur.com/a/vPWxwrv

https://imgur.com/a/RDfcSOX

https://imgur.com/a/aCkIrH3

https://imgur.com/a/oMJ4wpA

https://imgur.com/a/id1917H







Also shonen has nothing to do with it, this just determines in what original source material was published in the magazine, authors within shonen magazines can also target adult audience since they stands for teenage boys of the age of 13 to 18.

Look at kaguya sama and bochi the rock both are series published in shonen magazine yet do not cover mature topics because the reason? these series are slice of life in which this is the actual GENRE. Shonen/shojo/seinen/josei are just demographics in which once again determines in what magazine original source material has been published in.

Just because a Book Is Set in a WorldBuilding that Is not your World Doesen't not Make you "not Smart"

Non-Fiction Books aren't my Food for the Mind. Unless It's a Non-Fiction But with Characters that are described in Furry/Anthropomorphic (Symbolic or Not) Ways or Furry in the Cover instead of Being Just human

No, Shonen Don't mean Teenagers. Shonen simply mean for Older Children like 8-15 AOT and Naruto In Japan are Marketed as Shonen for Children. Content like Violence and Blood Doesen't matter for the Acessibility of Child's view It's the Author Who Really Matter

???World building? I am just saying if you want to learn about science, philosophy or history, just go read books on that subject lol. Also I probably should have used the word "knowledgeable" rather than "smart". They aren't the same thing.

Kay...however, if you want to actually gain knowledge about these things, you need to go read it. Authors may interpret those concepts, and give a degree of applicability however, you appreciate it more if you know what the author is referencing, and you still aren't going to learn the concept in full detail through fiction. The primary purpose of fiction is entertainment, and while it can educate, it really is only ever spark a interest, rather than give true knowledge.

HxH is very YA. YA often has violence or sex present pretty prominently in their works, because you know, teens like that stuff, which is why HxH has violent action content. It's published in Weekly Shonen Jump.... Also like I said previously, YA media can absolutely hit on "higher minded" topics however, how the work approaches that is different, compared to adult media.

Kaguya Sama Love is War is published in Young Jump, a seinen magazine. Plus Kaguya still feels demographically appropriate, some of the jokes are aimed at an older audience (what kids are going to get jokes about Rose of Versailles?) and I think older audiences appreciate meta genre narratives, which is what Kaguya is.

@JaniSIr I have never read the books, only watched the movies and they didn't appear childish to me (atleast not the later ones), and I do feel AOT is more mature than Harry Potter either way. No point arguing on this topic, we have different opinions.

???World building? I am just saying if you want to learn about science, philosophy or history, just go read books on that subject lol. Also I probably should have used the word "knowledgeable" rather than "smart". They aren't the same thing.

Kay...however, if you want to actually gain knowledge about these things, you need to go read it. Authors may interpret those concepts, and give a degree of applicability however, you appreciate it more if you know what the author is referencing, and you still aren't going to learn the concept in full detail through fiction. The primary purpose of fiction is entertainment, and while it can educate, it really is only ever spark a interest, rather than give true knowledge.

HxH is very YA. YA often has violence or sex present pretty prominently in their works, because you know, teens like that stuff, which is why HxH has violent action content. It's published in Weekly Shonen Jump.... Also like I said previously, YA media can absolutely hit on "higher minded" topics however, how the work approaches that is different, compared to adult media.

Kaguya Sama Love is War is published in Young Jump, a seinen magazine. Plus Kaguya still feels demographically appropriate, some of the jokes are aimed at an older audience (what kids are going to get jokes about Rose of Versailles?) and I think older audiences appreciate meta genre narratives, which is what Kaguya is.

@stefanoiulli1999 Wikipedia says otherwise. People of the age of 13 to 18 are teenagers it's very different from kids of the age of well... 3 to 11.





They also have kodomo demographic, demographic for children for the age of 4 to 11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_anime_and_manga

@BilboBaggins365 Well gintama is in weekly shonen jump and has a lot of adult jokes, di** jokes, man walking naked with visible di** albeit censored look at this scene for example in which what makes it funny they were airing in daytime slot.

And also throwing shit, throwing up alongside other adult jokes.

Did you read what I previously wrote? YA is taking adult stuff, and presenting it in a way, that is enjoyable to teens. That is basically the idea of YA. Your example doesn't at all disprove that unless you are trying to argue "dick jokes" (does MAL's mods actually care on here lol?) aren't enjoyed by teens. I don't get your point? Plus crass humor, is different from more high minded, dry adult humor, though that is more niche I guess.

Secondly Gintama's audience, at this point, I bet is pretty old.

Kay....

@BilboBaggins365 Well, because once again authors can target adult audience in shonen magazines in the same ways just like authors within seinen magazines.

Gintama is perfect example of it, look at also the recent report of shueisha published in 2019 showing that 29% of the readership of weekly shonen jump are people of 25 years old or older.



Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekly_Sh%C5%8Dnen_Jump#Circulation_and_demographic

@JaniSIr
Ofcourse, because watching one's friends die over and over (on top of dying oneself) is the same as losing a Pokemon battle.

@SoumyaUkil73 Alright, look, I like Harry Potter, but it's not adult literature, even if the later books got darker.
And the movie adaptations doubled down on it, because they left out all the silly stuff because they compressed both a 300 and a 700 page book down to the same 2 hours runtime, while making the color palette way darker to appear more serious.
The fact that it's still rated somewhat highly says more about the other stuff you watched and not Harry Potter itself. ><

???World building? I am just saying if you want to learn about science, philosophy or history, just go read books on that subject lol. Also I probably should have used the word "knowledgeable" rather than "smart". They aren't the same thing.

Kay...however, if you want to actually gain knowledge about these things, you need to go read it. Authors may interpret those concepts, and give a degree of applicability however, you appreciate it more if you know what the author is referencing, and you still aren't going to learn the concept in full detail through fiction. The primary purpose of fiction is entertainment, and while it can educate, it really is only ever spark a interest, rather than give true knowledge.

HxH is very YA. YA often has violence or sex present pretty prominently in their works, because you know, teens like that stuff, which is why HxH has violent action content. It's published in Weekly Shonen Jump.... Also like I said previously, YA media can absolutely hit on "higher minded" topics however, how the work approaches that is different, compared to adult media.

Kaguya Sama Love is War is published in Young Jump, a seinen magazine. Plus Kaguya still feels demographically appropriate, some of the jokes are aimed at an older audience (what kids are going to get jokes about Rose of Versailles?) and I think older audiences appreciate meta genre narratives, which is what Kaguya is.

You read a Book set in a imaginary World Which talks about History, Geography and Science different from your World but still in an Educational context?

The thing is, even a majority of shit outside of the "mainstream" can feel pretty juvenile. You’ll see shit like female characters casually grabbing each other’s breasts in a regular seasonal releases and that’s not something you’d see in everyday Japan. Anime tropes are baked into the medium regardless of popularity. From chibi-style characters to stereotypical kawaii fashion, that juvenile streak shows up everywhere, even in mature-themed titles.

Sure, someone can pull a bunch of titles out of their ass and drop a long-winded list like a deuce of string candy, but that likely won't change their opinion if their history has been limited to only "mainstream" shit for an extensive amount of time.

Beyond actual titles meant for children, I couldn’t convince someone that well over half of all anime out there is basically flooded with the occasional brief incidental panty shot scene, even for shit targeting female audiences. Where if one actually watched a significant chunk of anime from the 70s to today, it’s pretty glaring. Most people won’t notice this unless they’ve spent decades consistently consuming this shit. lol

But for the sake of argument, I can shamelessly drop a few random favorite titles that are definitely not meant for children... "Agent AIKa", "Abashiri Ikka", "Desert Punk", "Goblin Slayer", "009-1", "Golgo 13 (TV)", "Hellsing", "Ikkitousen", "Jormungand", "Lupin III: Part II", "Mad★Bull 34", "Megazone 23", "Najica Blitz Tactics", "Ninja Scroll", "No Guns Life", "Space Battleship Tiramisu", "Devilman Lady", "Venus Wars", "Violence Jack", "Wild 7", etc... lol

This sentence doesn't seem coherent to me lol? Yes dude, reading an actual physics book, is going to teach you more about physics than science fiction. Yes dude, reading books about geopolitics/history is going to teach you more about the subject than Naruto or even Legend of the Galactic Heroes (I will give it a pass for citing Gibbon uncritically).

Yes however, the goal is still to write a work, that captures their target audience, which is teens ages 12-18. Bakuman has a whole section of the story lambasting the characters for going outside those bounds.

What it shows, is that adults still enjoy YA media, like me lol. I am not coming to anime, usually, if I want high minded stories. Anime has a specific kind of story, it largely does well, and I enjoy that form of writing.

@BilboBaggins365 I recommend this video about manga demographics. It's fun. Just because the story is mature doesn't mean it will be seinen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_bBKm2gkE&t=

Also if a Shonen contains Blood or Death Doesen't mean It's exclusively for Teens and Children canno't watch. Again Shonen & Seinen are Neither Genres & Age Ratings. They are Demographics Children can Access any Shonen even also the More Bloody or Grounded.

Shonen mean Older Children
Kodomo mean Very Young Children
Seinen mean Late Teens to Young Adults

@stefanoiulli1999 It is also with shonen since once again it stands for teenage boys for the age of 13 to 18 and in Japan considered legal age of adult is 18. Meaning once again, authors within shonen magazines can target adult audience.

@jacobPOL but this Doesen't mean That Shonen is just PG-13 or R-17 Stuff.

Shonen Can also Be Rated G or Could be having Very Family-Friendly Tone

@BilboBaggins365 I recommend this video about manga demographics. It's fun. Just because the story is mature doesn't mean it will be seinen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y_bBKm2gkE&t=

I would argue that most seinen works would classify as "New Adult" fiction, so I am not even claiming that. Anyway I think we are just speaking past each other...so yeah. I am aware of all this stuff dude...you aren't addressing a single thing I am saying.


Sorry to tell you that ain't educational lol. Who cares if you know the fictional history of the Gundam universe? History is useful in order to understand current geopolitical or cultural realities. Metaphors, allusions or allegory are only useful if you understand what is being referred to.

Also "your" universe...what universe are you from lol?

@BilboBaggins365 Simple. There's something called Lore.

Also what you say doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist in the Gundam Universe. It's just treated differently from our world.

@Killjoy_Kora it's a completely vacuous statement that in the time it took you to give me an answer hentai images on Pixiv have already promoted three/four series kins of the one I'm currently watching (I had no idea the Precure IP had all this assortment of knockout ladies, particularly of the blonde, blue/purple eyed kind, the same kind the japanese animes apparently have put me into) AND I'm enjoying plenty the series I'm currently watching even outside the sexual side. I've tried three times to get into this IP, I had lost all the interest in getting into it because I felt that it wasn't my thing (which in reality it isn't, as this is good for magical girls fans AND tokusatsu fans alike), the p0rn aimed at adults you so much despise finally did the trick. And if I'm ever going to spend money on this IP in the future, it will be because of the promotion the free online p0rn did of the current precure season and of the preceding ones.

I am sure you impressed your social studies teacher, with knowledge of such things.

@ProudElitist I think it's great for you that you're so proud of jacking it to child characters. You've totally won this conversation buddy.

@Killjoy_Kora correction, I jerk to child characters like my beautiful wife Pan AND adult ones. The last to which I jerked (one from what will most certainly be the next pretty cure series I'll watch, goddamn I love sexy blondes with blue eyes) is, more or less, an adult rendition of a character from that series, at least if the size of her boobs are of any indication. See, cartoon characters have no age, they can be in child's bodies and be older than mathusalem. Didn't Kaioshin from DBZ teach anything to you?

@ProudElitist Well, for one I think you're a freak weirdo, but for two I think DBZ sucks ass so I suppose that's the end of this "discussion."

@LongAnimeEnjoyer No, as I said that's more akin to what 8 years old thinks mature is, because they confuse that with being edgy.