Why are Bleach fans content with poor character drama?

Roronoa said:
Yhwach was introduced in episode 1, slaughtered multiple fodder characters using the Sternritter, we get barely any background to the suffering he went through by the hand of Yamamoto yet we are supposed to be emotionally invested in this "thousand year" grudge? It seems like Yamamoto was only brought in to emphasize on the power Yhwach carries.

The only successful attempt at character drama I have seen Bleach manage is in the fullbringer arc, when we see Ichigo break down. But we all know that it is one of the worst arcs in shounen history next to 4GNW from naruto, since it threw away all that emotional build up just to bring back the Gotei 13 because they are what carry Bleach.

Bleach fans will use the excuse that there is a lot of depth but it's not for "surface level" readers when in reality they over analyze bad writing to make it seem good.

What are your guys thoughts?

Roronoa said:


LOL by all means point out where I said I want to sympathize. It seems like basic comprehension is difficult for most Bleach fans

Animorphimagi said:
I think Bleach has the most subtext of any series ever made. It is never outright stated what it's like to live hundreds of years with minimal drama, and then Ichigo shows up and pulls his stunt, and then in thr middle of that you find out someone you knew for a few hundred years was a super traitor and killed all of you high government officials to manipulate your whole country(which is like 30 square miles. I was shocked to get any backstory for Yamamoto because at the end of the day he's simply the symbol for what Soul Society has been since its inception, with Ichigo representing a change after all this time. (ichigo/Aizen and yamamoto also can be seen as a representation of pre-WW2 Japan vs post ww2 Japan). This all might sound like it's reaching, but I can't even imagine doing this for Naruto, My Hero Academia, or Soul Eater. Bleach pulls inspiration from a lot of sources, and while the story itself is basic, the thoughtfulness for how it was made is very mind blowing.

Datweeb1 said:

I'm guessing you're blind or just lying because I said clearly in my response earlier that sympathising with Yhwach or Yamamoto is subjective to the audience. It's not forced. They both had different circumstances and eventually ended up in different paths. Yhwach was taken advantage of when he was a child until he regained all of his senses by the Soul Society and holds a rightful grudge against them for changing the original state of the world by sealing away the soul king. Yamamoto lost most of his comrades in the first battle from 1000 years ago and all of them were cold blooded murderers. However, Yamamoto grew older and became more attached to people like Sasakibe, Ukitake and Kyouraku. He stopped taking advantage of people and that eventually became his downfall (Yhwach specifically singled out of the time he sacrificed his arm in the battle against Aizen and didn't ask Orihime to heal him who had the power to do so). Yhwach is the rightful heir to the Soul King and the soul reapers and noble clans stripped him away from it by dividing the world and sealing away the soul king.

There are reasons to understand their actions and paths but no one is necessarily telling you to sympathise with them.

Roronoa said:


LOL by all means point out where I said I want to sympathize. It seems like basic comprehension is difficult for most Bleach fans

Datweeb1 said:

YOU want to be "emotionally invested" in this grudge for what other reason then? You have 6 episodes out so far and are complaining about things that will eventually reveal themselves. Everything But The Rain, The Blade is Me, Friend, Squad Zero and the final battle WILL sort these things out.

Datweeb1 said:

YOU want to be "emotionally invested" in this grudge for what other reason then? You have 6 episodes out so far and are complaining about things that will eventually reveal themselves. Everything But The Rain, The Blade is Me, Friend, Squad Zero and the final battle WILL sort these things out.

Roronoa said:


You are clearly cherry picking what is defining sympathy, you mentioned that he grew close to those such as Sasakibe, even demonstrating that kind of relationship is getting readers to sympathize. Are you claiming what you just said is subjective? If so, ironic.

Roronoa said:
Yhwach was introduced in episode 1, slaughtered multiple fodder characters using the Sternritter, we get barely any background to the suffering he went through by the hand of Yamamoto yet we are supposed to be emotionally invested in this "thousand year" grudge? It seems like Yamamoto was only brought in to emphasize on the power Yhwach carries.

The only successful attempt at character drama I have seen Bleach manage is in the fullbringer arc, when we see Ichigo break down. But we all know that it is one of the worst arcs in shounen history next to 4GNW from naruto, since it threw away all that emotional build up just to bring back the Gotei 13 because they are what carry Bleach.

Bleach fans will use the excuse that there is a lot of depth but it's not for "surface level" readers when in reality they over analyze bad writing to make it seem good.

What are your guys thoughts?

Roronoa said:


Unfortunately for you, wanting to be emotionally invested in the plot has little do with wanting to feel sympathy, and you are clearly missing the point in what it means to create a story.

Datweeb1 said:

Oh yeah, me and millions of others don't but you definitely do. Got it, thanks for your opinion but turns out you're just being salty over its rating on this website. You've clearly made that much clear to me.

Roronoa said:


Why would I care about the rating? I saw something I disagreed with and made a thread for it, there are obvious trolls who prefer to send personal insults then hold meaningful conversation and I decided to reply to them. You seemed to believe that the meaning behind the thread was lost at that point.

ShamankinguYoh said:
I knew the second Bleach’s anime return was announced the old big 3 wars would start up again. Part of why I wanted the series to stay gone, but it does deserve to wrap up in anime form. My take is that I never really could understand people’s interest in the series beyond the style and character design. The biggest problem is that the character roster is so insanely huge and constantly expanding that I couldn’t even begin to care or have any interest in literally any of these characters. The character drama is poor because Kubo expects us to have deep attachment and interest in tons and tons of shallow character conflicts that have no real depth. This is a problem the vast majority of the series has but this last arc is absolutely terrible with it. When people say that this is the best arc in the series I cannot even begin to fathom why that would be the case for some. I always thought that the character roster should reflect the series’ relatively smaller scope, but for some reason we had to have millions of characters running around because Kubo just loves to draw characters and then come up with stuff for them to do in the plot after the fact. One last thing, Bleach fans seem incapable of understanding or accepting the strange idea that their series isn’t some flawless misunderstood masterpiece and that other people have legitimate criticisms. On this thread and many others I’ve seen you guys dismiss criticism just to explain why people just don’t understand this super deep nuanced series and why they’re wrong for thinking any aspect of it was poorly executed or could’ve been handled better. I get that your favorite series is back but man, the reluctance to accept criticism and the fact that others have a less than stellar opinion of the series reeks of late 2000s fanboyism, just more in depth. The discourse goes nowhere because Bleach fans don’t want to view their favorite series as anything but perfect.

Roronoa said:
But we all know that it is one of the worst arcs in shounen history

Ionliosite2 said:


I call that a complete crap take lmao, the Fullbinger arc was slow at the beggining then it got good. I don't know how someone can actually consider it one of the worst Shonen arcs when it isn't even the worst Bleach arc.

Ionliosite2 said:


I call that a complete crap take lmao, the Fullbinger arc was slow at the beggining then it got good. I don't know how someone can actually consider it one of the worst Shonen arcs when it isn't even the worst Bleach arc.

VelxonY said:


He forgot about Skypiea and Thriller Bark lmao...

Roronoa said:


Funnily enough i didn't forget, those are my least favorite arcs of the series. Add Punk Hazard and you're good, anyone was free to diss those arcs and I would have no problem agreeing.

Roronoa said:
Apply your supposed critical thinking skills to real life bro and stop defending these shit tier writing with your life

VelxonY said:


Respect, Thriller bark has the best scene in op even though its the 2nd worst arc. The moment that shows you that dogshit backstory of Zoro doesn't compare to his action and love for his captain. Moment Zoro became my fav too.

Adampk said:
I don't think bleach is good at world building as one piece like even ichigo's father being shinigami came out of nowhere with much prior foreshadowing. But lets not talk as one piece as some perfect thing, oda foddered everyone whose name is not Kozuki, scabbard or oruchi in wano

Roronoa said:
Yhwach was introduced in episode 1, slaughtered multiple fodder characters using the Sternritter, we get barely any background to the suffering he went through by the hand of Yamamoto yet we are supposed to be emotionally invested in this "thousand year" grudge? It seems like Yamamoto was only brought in to emphasize on the power Yhwach carries.

The only successful attempt at character drama I have seen Bleach manage is in the fullbringer arc, when we see Ichigo break down. But we all know that it is one of the worst arcs in shounen history next to 4GNW from naruto, since it threw away all that emotional build up just to bring back the Gotei 13 because they are what carry Bleach.

Bleach fans will use the excuse that there is a lot of depth but it's not for "surface level" readers when in reality they over analyze bad writing to make it seem good.

What are your guys thoughts?

Ace-Seiei said:




These types of threads seem to only be designed to stir flame wars with Bleach fans. What people have done for years because they get off or something in that similar fashion is pissing off Bleach fans. Bleach for the first time in years finally has some positive buzz around it, and some people still seem so angry with that. Or at least it seems like that. And a word to the wise if you want to have a real conversation and not just a yelling match between people. Try not to write your OP in the most hyperbolic way possible.

And the reason Bleach fans are so hyper-sensitive to these types of needlessly negative criticisms is that for years Bleach Bleach was the but of everyone's joke in the anime community, and fans were seen as losers for liking. People like eyepatchwolf made a whole career shitting on Bleach, and even to this day still spread falsehoods about the series, so I cannot blame people that when Bleach is having a big revival threads like these show up, and they seem just to upset people and make fun of fans who have been made fun of for years.

I originally had a sentence in this post pointing out that you were actually respectful with detractors, but after looking at this thread again I can see you are being super rude and beyond unbearable. So I going to assume the very worst of your intentions, and that being you are someone looking to start a flame war because being shitty on popular things makes you help someone, and you want to continue the trend of Zoro having the worst fanboys on the face of the planet.

Roronoa said:


Again, someone who believes that the minute I decide to reply to shit talkers by shit talking the whole point of the thread is gone.

I don't have to be respectful to those who aren't, when I made this thread there would be toxic people no matter how I worded it. So I decided to poke fun at them and lo and behold, it pissed them off to no degree.

Roronoa said:


Again, someone who believes that the minute I decide to reply to shit talkers by shit talking the whole point of the thread is gone.

I don't have to be respectful to those who aren't, when I made this thread there would be toxic people no matter how I worded it. So I decided to poke fun at them and lo and behold, it pissed them off to no degree.

Roronoa said:


He had multiple ANTAGONIST flashbacks for previous arcs, Soul Society with Kenpachi and Byakuya. Arrancar with Grimmjow and Stark. Where is the consistency in his logic? Not to mention that because they were given that sort of background, they ended up becoming many people's favorite.

ShamankinguYoh said:
I knew the second Bleach’s anime return was announced the old big 3 wars would start up again. Part of why I wanted the series to stay gone, but it does deserve to wrap up in anime form. My take is that I never really could understand people’s interest in the series beyond the style and character design. The biggest problem is that the character roster is so insanely huge and constantly expanding that I couldn’t even begin to care or have any interest in literally any of these characters. The character drama is poor because Kubo expects us to have deep attachment and interest in tons and tons of shallow character conflicts that have no real depth. This is a problem the vast majority of the series has but this last arc is absolutely terrible with it. When people say that this is the best arc in the series I cannot even begin to fathom why that would be the case for some. I always thought that the character roster should reflect the series’ relatively smaller scope, but for some reason we had to have millions of characters running around because Kubo just loves to draw characters and then come up with stuff for them to do in the plot after the fact. One last thing, Bleach fans seem incapable of understanding or accepting the strange idea that their series isn’t some flawless misunderstood masterpiece and that other people have legitimate criticisms. On this thread and many others I’ve seen you guys dismiss criticism just to explain why people just don’t understand this super deep nuanced series and why they’re wrong for thinking any aspect of it was poorly executed or could’ve been handled better. I get that your favorite series is back but man, the reluctance to accept criticism and the fact that others have a less than stellar opinion of the series reeks of late 2000s fanboyism, just more in depth. The discourse goes nowhere because Bleach fans don’t want to view their favorite series as anything but perfect.

Roronoa said:
Bleach fans will use the excuse that there is a lot of depth but it's not for "surface level" readers when in reality they over analyze bad writing to make it seem good.

Roronoa said:


Unfortunately for you, wanting to be emotionally invested in the plot has little do with wanting to feel sympathy, and you are clearly missing the point in what it means to create a story.

Roronoa said:


If you look through the thread I reply to people who happen to disagree with me, the goal is discussion which is what half of the people complain about not having enough of when there's review bombing threads.

DeltaF-x said:
I think many of the bleach fans here arent understanding what Roronoa is doing. He's not here to crap on bleach, he does not seem like the person who engages in pointless dialogue. He might be wondering what caused bleach, the most hated of the big 3, to being the favorite of the big 3 in current anime era, and how it became a series that could compete with FMAB, one of the most beloved series on MAL.

I dont like bleach or one piece, you can see that i rated both of their mangas very lowly because I'm more of a visual novel and light novel fan, so you can't accuse me of saying I'm hating on bleach due to one piece.

To answer what I think @roronoa wanted, I think Bleach went from being hated to loved mainly due to generational gaps. I remember back in 2005, naruto was the most praised, and i didnt hear much praise about OP, Bleach or HxH. By 2011-2015, People had thought naruto had fallen off, and HxH became the supreme king within that time period. By 2015 to 2020, one piece manga was most loved, and hxh was forgotten, and naruto became hated after boruto. But now, from 2020 to present, it seems Bleach has taken off, and it is getting its time to shine. This generational gap could have people rethink what "good" drama is. Think about it, compare how each genre of fiction changed over time. Take horror as an example, Psycho 1960 as a horror film is not the same as the jump scare horror films we have today, and it isnt black and white in contemporary era. There is a generational gap between the different pieces of media in different timelines.

The people who loved OP and Naruto must be the later half of the millennials and early half of Gen Zers. The people who are liking bleach now are most likely the second of half of Gen Zers or the early half of the Gen Alphas. And because of this generational shift, there are different preferences. In the end, I think the people who like Bleach now, weren't bleach haters from the past, but a new generational demographic of new people in the current anime era.

You'll need to realize that likes and dislikes are never constant, as technology increases, morality changes, and when morals change, beliefs change, what people like and dislike are beliefs, and they change alongside with technology. How people view drama today is not the same as in the past. Anime has became so mainstream these days, i remember it was not seen as impressive back when I was in middle school, but now, many people are interacting with it. I overheard praise for demon slayer back at my old job at a warehouse from some 30-40 year old guy, things change man, and we as anime fans have to be responsible enough to accept it.

DeltaF-x said:
I think many of the bleach fans here arent understanding what Roronoa is doing. He's not here to crap on bleach, he does not seem like the person who engages in pointless dialogue. He might be wondering what caused bleach, the most hated of the big 3, to being the favorite of the big 3 in current anime era, and how it became a series that could compete with FMAB, one of the most beloved series on MAL.

I dont like bleach or one piece, you can see that i rated both of their mangas very lowly because I'm more of a visual novel and light novel fan, so you can't accuse me of saying I'm hating on bleach due to one piece.

To answer what I think @roronoa wanted, I think Bleach went from being hated to loved mainly due to generational gaps. I remember back in 2005, naruto was the most praised, and i didnt hear much praise about OP, Bleach or HxH. By 2011-2015, People had thought naruto had fallen off, and HxH became the supreme king within that time period. By 2015 to 2020, one piece manga was most loved, and hxh was forgotten, and naruto became hated after boruto. But now, from 2020 to present, it seems Bleach has taken off, and it is getting its time to shine. This generational gap could have people rethink what "good" drama is. Think about it, compare how each genre of fiction changed over time. Take horror as an example, Psycho 1960 as a horror film is not the same as the jump scare horror films we have today, and it isnt black and white in contemporary era. There is a generational gap between the different pieces of media in different timelines.

The people who loved OP and Naruto must be the later half of the millennials and early half of Gen Zers. The people who are liking bleach now are most likely the second of half of Gen Zers or the early half of the Gen Alphas. And because of this generational shift, there are different preferences. In the end, I think the people who like Bleach now, weren't bleach haters from the past, but a new generational demographic of new people in the current anime era.

You'll need to realize that likes and dislikes are never constant, as technology increases, morality changes, and when morals change, beliefs change, what people like and dislike are beliefs, and they change alongside with technology. How people view drama today is not the same as in the past. Anime has became so mainstream these days, i remember it was not seen as impressive back when I was in middle school, but now, many people are interacting with it. I overheard praise for demon slayer back at my old job at a warehouse from some 30-40 year old guy, things change man, and we as anime fans have to be responsible enough to accept it.

_Equilibrium_ said:

This is false. FMAB is probably the most despised anime on this platform because everyone on MAL and on social media are already aware of the fact that in actuality this anime statistically does not even belong in the top 10 today. Actually, FMAB is so infamous that there are JPG memes mocking its fraudulent and memeworthy #1 rank. There are even YouTube videos on the notorious vote-bombing that it's associated with and you can't go a comments section related to the anime without vote-bombing being brought up against it. The consensus today is that this is an average shounen that has nothing remarkably good nor remarkably bad about it. Unlike most other shounen that excel in at least one thing at the cost of at least one other thing, this one instead offers you everything at an average quality. It's an easily digestible feel-good shounen that lacks any nuanced writing or meaningful themes with basic dialogue whilst catering to the younger end of the shounen demographic, hence why most of its fanbase (what little of it is still left) are underage beginners to the medium (though less and less people are even using it as an entry-level anime now) that grow out of it with age and greater exposition to the medium. Besides, the only reason it became so popular back in the 2000s was because it used to be the best thing airing on Toonami.

Miraculously, an anime like this is sitting at #1 a decade later, but it all makes sense once you quickly and inevitably realize it's due to vote manipulation (not by the power of FMAB bots alone mind you, because FMAB struggles to even compete against niche series like Gintama in number of fans today as a result of it losing all of its popularity and relevancy over the decade thanks to successfully being overshadowed; but largely in part due to incompetence by the MAL moderation team in regards to the rating system which constantly gets brought up). This explains why the FMAB forum is a desolate wasteland where you will mostly just see people promoting their taste while putting down FMAB for being low-hanging fruit with a tiny and undead fanbase. It also explains why FMAB is the only anime with such a large member count that decreases by multiple points every year (3 years ago it was at 9.2).

People believe MAL ratings have lost all their integrity because of FMAB, and indeed the score ceiling for anime on MAL would be even higher than it currently is for manga if it weren't inauthentically, forcibly lowered. You'll find out that every other season something blitzes past it only to suddenly drop in score below the title while it takes a few points off of it as well in the initiated vote-bombing war. This season it was BLEACH and CSM, with the former peaking at 9.3 rating and the latter at 9.2 within a couple hours of their premiere I believe. FMAB dropped by 2 points since last month if I'm correct. By next year this anime will have lost any margin between the titles below it. It will become increasingly easier to pin down for good in the future as a result, especially because the two most dynamic titles of this season in BLEACH and CSM have more cours incoming for it to go to war with again alongside other titles such as AoT.


The rest of your post I won't comment on. I don't agree with all of it, but it's an interesting proposition.

Adampk said:

That's way too subtle. It may be one of his ideas in mind. But he didn't integrate that into the story properly regardless.

Adampk said:

The entire problem which this situation isshin being such a important shinigami. Multiple gotei officer have gone in and out of ichigo house. Yet they didn't recognise him. It just contrived overall. And the forshadowing u are all mentioning is not convincing or well planned enough to counter that.

DeltaF-x said:
I think many of the bleach fans here arent understanding what Roronoa is doing. He's not here to crap on bleach, he does not seem like the person who engages in pointless dialogue. He might be wondering what caused bleach, the most hated of the big 3, to being the favorite of the big 3 in current anime era, and how it became a series that could compete with FMAB, one of the most beloved series on MAL.

I dont like bleach or one piece, you can see that i rated both of their mangas very lowly because I'm more of a visual novel and light novel fan, so you can't accuse me of saying I'm hating on bleach due to one piece.

To answer what I think @roronoa wanted, I think Bleach went from being hated to loved mainly due to generational gaps. I remember back in 2005, naruto was the most praised, and i didnt hear much praise about OP, Bleach or HxH. By 2011-2015, People had thought naruto had fallen off, and HxH became the supreme king within that time period. By 2015 to 2020, one piece manga was most loved, and hxh was forgotten, and naruto became hated after boruto. But now, from 2020 to present, it seems Bleach has taken off, and it is getting its time to shine. This generational gap could have people rethink what "good" drama is. Think about it, compare how each genre of fiction changed over time. Take horror as an example, Psycho 1960 as a horror film is not the same as the jump scare horror films we have today, and it isnt black and white in contemporary era. There is a generational gap between the different pieces of media in different timelines.

The people who loved OP and Naruto must be the later half of the millennials and early half of Gen Zers. The people who are liking bleach now are most likely the second of half of Gen Zers or the early half of the Gen Alphas. And because of this generational shift, there are different preferences. In the end, I think the people who like Bleach now, weren't bleach haters from the past, but a new generational demographic of new people in the current anime era.

You'll need to realize that likes and dislikes are never constant, as technology increases, morality changes, and when morals change, beliefs change, what people like and dislike are beliefs, and they change alongside with technology. How people view drama today is not the same as in the past. Anime has became so mainstream these days, i remember it was not seen as impressive back when I was in middle school, but now, many people are interacting with it. I overheard praise for demon slayer back at my old job at a warehouse from some 30-40 year old guy, things change man, and we as anime fans have to be responsible enough to accept it.

__Son_Gohan said:
To put it simply. People take Bleach for what it is. This will cause you to see it in either a bad light or a bright one. It being a part of the Big 3 causes it to be even more controversial given it's status.

That being said, the Fullbringer Arc is written beautifully from start to end. And over analyzing a story isn't really a thing. You'll find more and more to love about a series the more you discover about it. Especially a series like Bleach where your curiosity cannot be tamed if you love the creative world envisioned by Kubo.

Shinuki_n_Reborn said:


"the Fullbringer Arc is written beautifully from start to end"

Bruh, just no, the Fullbring Arc was literally what ruined most of Bleach reputation and sales at the time, i read this weekly and even many hardcore Bleach fans had a hard time following it every week, it's not like it's the worst thing ever but was painfully slow, characters with hardly much charisma, weird powers, the plot was way out of Bleach tone, not to mention how weak all of the Fullbrings were in the end, it's basically Bleach's black sheep, and i know that if read all at once or watched the anime adaptation it feels way better but saying it's beautifully written is a big stretch.

Shinuki_n_Reborn said:


"the Fullbringer Arc is written beautifully from start to end"

Bruh, just no, the Fullbring Arc was literally what ruined most of Bleach reputation and sales at the time, i read this weekly and even many hardcore Bleach fans had a hard time following it every week, it's not like it's the worst thing ever but was painfully slow, characters with hardly much charisma, weird powers, the plot was way out of Bleach tone, not to mention how weak all of the Fullbrings were in the end, it's basically Bleach's black sheep, and i know that if read all at once or watched the anime adaptation it feels way better but saying it's beautifully written is a big stretch.

Shinuki_n_Reborn said:


"the Fullbringer Arc is written beautifully from start to end"

Bruh, just no, the Fullbring Arc was literally what ruined most of Bleach reputation and sales at the time, i read this weekly and even many hardcore Bleach fans had a hard time following it every week, it's not like it's the worst thing ever but was painfully slow, characters with hardly much charisma, weird powers, the plot was way out of Bleach tone, not to mention how weak all of the Fullbrings were in the end, it's basically Bleach's black sheep, and i know that if read all at once or watched the anime adaptation it feels way better but saying it's beautifully written is a big stretch.