So I'm a Spider, So What? (light novel)
dejablu said: That is fine but what people are taking issue with is that you make up headcanon based on information the anime DIDN'T provide, at all. For example, you are the only one among dozens and dozens of anime only viewers posting on the episode discussions that invented a subplot about the Demon lord needing to sacrifice an army to kill the hero. When I pointed it out to you, you deflected it ignoring I was obviously talking about anime only viewers and not source readers. You seem to be entirely missing the fact I pointed out I was wrong in my next post. dejablu said: A cursory look at the episode discussions suggests that plenty of anime only viewers notice those hints and connect the dots without any need of knowing the LN. Plenty of anime only viewers identified the two timelines before they were explicitly revealed, for example. Anyways that doesn't explain how rather than missing information you make up information that isn't in the anime in the first place. It's hard to say whether they figured it out based on what anime provided them with that information or they simply searched for answers across this forum, etc. I even agree that I misunderstand this anime, and making my own conclusion as anime doesn't tell me anything. dejablu said: The anime gave plenty of evidence that the RPG logic is not to be taken at face value either, spelling it out when episode 7 revealed the existence of administrators. This was noticed by plenty of non-source readers, so your usual argument that you must have novel knowledge to pick up those hints won't work The existence of Administrators is explicitly a JRPG logic. It works under RPG mechanics, of course, it has Administrators. dejablu said: Yes it did, and most anime only viewers realized that. The timelines presented at the same time suggested that to most anime only viewers; seeing Kumoko's actual form from Ronandt's perspective suggested Kumoko's perspective on herself was biased, just to name two examples. You don't need the context of source readers to get those two scene suggests bias (not hallucinations or dreams, those are your strawmen) There is nothing suggesting that the information we are provided isn't true. Kumuko still killed Rolant's unit before he teleported away. Fact that Kumuko doesn't look small and cutesy to humans is actually irrelevant to the mechanic how the skills work. |
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dejablu said: Moving goalposts: that reply was strictly about your affirmation that "You won't get any of it [explanation of skills, which another user was asking about] out of the human part... If Kumuko didn't explain skills in her rants, it isn't explained at all." The important point is that you stated "at all". Those I posted were some random examples of explanations provided first in the human segments. They are sufficient to disprove your claim that skills weren't explained "at all" in the human perspective. I never claimed that the relevance of the second timeline is limited or even primarily about explaining skills. This thread is about understanding the anime (or misunderstanding it) that's why I moved the post here instead of replying. And Shun's part didn't add anything to understanding the anime so far, adding mostly incomplete or redundant information, aside of Rolant scene which was synchronized with events of Kumuko's timeline. I pointed out, repeatedly, this is only about understanding anime. Or misunderstanding it, but that's a part of the deal. Most of the people that react me are something like "LN is such a masterwork and so well throughout, everything makes sense there" which ... actually, I don't refute. I am not reacting to the novel. I don't even necessarily criticize it, you don't need to defend's author honor or whatever you are trying to do. |
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dejablu said: For the record it wasn't really the next one, you first said you rewatched that segment and came to the same conclusion, tried to deflect my response into a rant about people supposedly suggesting you to read the novel (?) and only later you conceded. I admitted, even repeatedly, I was wrong, and even warned people beforehand I may be grossly misinterpreting information anime gives me. Which is exactly what happened it in that case. An events of the show proven me wrong, and I went back to rewatch the meeting segment if I didn’t misheard something. I didn’t. I simply came to wrong conclusion. Events as described in anime is canon, I was wrong. I never claimed I am always right. You must be mistaking for someone else. dejablu said: Sure, but the probability that ALL of them did so, and you are the only one who didn't seems pretty low (not to mention that as a manga reader you are technically "spoiled" in random unintended ways). I’ve read the manga. However, manga entirely leaves out Shun part of the story. While all people who read the novel agrees that narrative weight of the story lies on Shun’s part, which makes my pre-knowledge about the events in the manga practically irrelevant to this discussion. Also, it is not entirely clear whether manga itself is canon, and not a spin-off with a different take of the events of the story. As such, for purpose of this exercise, I consider anime only source of information. I can be wrong. I read the entire meeting scene wrong (at it wasn’t in manga, I didn’t get it from there) so I can be wrong again. Why you are angry at me for being wrong if I repeatedly admitted I was wrong? dejablu said: I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here. Can you name examples of isekai where administrators interfere with the RPG mechanics of the world and watch over the main character's struggles? I'm not saying Kumo Desu Ga is unique in this respect, I'm sure there are plenty other cases, but what I meant by not taking the RPG logic at face value was that it doesn't seem to be just a "natural" law of the world that you're not supposed to question in any way. Kumoko herself questions exactly that in episode 7, after all; that doesn't mean that *everything* is a "lie", though. From what I understand Administrators and Gods are synonymous in this setting, and many other shows have protagonist as some form on “Chosen One” selected by powers that be. I have no problem with this arrangement. I have no issue with harems, fan-service, overpowered protagonists and so on. I have only problem with things that aren’t explained in satisfactory manner. It doesn’t even need to be explained immediately, I understand gradual revelation of information as they become relevant. Problem is this show is unique in the fact it doesn’t have that, with jumping on timelines and views. We aren’t restricted to what protagonist can learn. We can’t be even sure who protagonist is. dejablu said: That's what everyone has been telling you: there is narration bias, not outright lies. There is evidence of narration bias, such as Kumoko seeing herself differently from how she is. This doesn’t justify the seemingly missing information and inconsistent delivery of the information… And I stress out, delivery of information, not inconsistency of information itself, where show explains something then ignores something else. dejablu said: What I see is in this thread is that people often show you how things make sense in the *anime*, using *anime* examples that other anime only viewers are catching just fine, and you deflect by bringing in the need for novel knowledge or greater context where it isn't really needed. If anything I think you would have about the same experience reading the novel, since it presents information in about the same way and order as the anime Someone mentioned it before, I’ll say it again – if it was meant to be a confusing puzzle in a light novel format, and it is confusing puzzle as an anime, then fair enough, it is staying true to the spirit of original work. But if it is meant to be confusing puzzle, it warrants the existence of the treads like this as people with their own bias interpret the sparse information differently. Why can bias be used as justification for characters, but not from readers? Why I can’t have bias? |
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antigraviton said: Weak writing withholds information to try to keep the audience in suspense: it's weak because when withholding information leaves readers/viewers confused, disoriented, or frustrated, that removes the motivation to keep reading/watching, which is not a good result if you're interested in keeping the audience engaged. Stronger writing instead controls the audience's perceptions of the information it's feeding them, rather than withholding information to leave otherwise expected story elements vague. In Kumo desu ga the only actual moment of "weak wrtting" serves the purpose of not info dump us. In the anime Taboo showed random imgs and that's all, in the novels we didn't get anything, but taboo is a infodump skill which would make everything exposition, that's why it's presented later in a slightly less infodumpy way. I'm not saying you think the writting in this show is weak, just giving an example of it and why that is as it is. oh, on sensei ruler skill usage, she wouldn't explain it to Shun and it was actually explained with Kumoko, it just didn't make sense since we're missing info. beast_regards said: I wonder ... How can the story be about Kumoko if they are wasting so much time on boring characters like Shun? How can the story be about Shun if they named the show about the spider? It certainly can’t be about one specific thing as it is far too unfocused and rely too much on misdirection with avoidance of meaningful answer. Etc. As far as I can tell, I assume story is supposed to be some obnoxious anti-escapism message ... but I can't tell that from anime sources, I conclude it from the rants saying that "nothing is real". Nothing is real huh... this reminds me of a famous italian leader. I'll put it here, you can think what you want about it. beast_regards said: Someone mentioned it before, I’ll say it again – if it was meant to be a confusing puzzle in a light novel format, and it is confusing puzzle as an anime, then fair enough, it is staying true to the spirit of original work. But if it is meant to be confusing puzzle, it warrants the existence of the treads like this as people with their own bias interpret the sparse information differently. Why can bias be used as justification for characters, but not from readers? Why I can’t have bias? Oh no, please have a bias, it is entertaining. You and other anime onlies complaining about important bits and making theories about stuff is cool, makes me nostalgic. |
Primo_Itoko said: "Grants the ability to exceed the W system and interfere with MA field" Which explains nothing about removing skills. It explains nothing at all, as we don't know what any of those words mean. Actually, even Taboo skills don't explain the terms. The show does this constantly, drops random terms, expecting readers to somehow know what they mean. |
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Primo_Itoko said: Nothing is real huh... this reminds me of a famous italian leader. I'll put it here, you can think what you want about it.. "To say nothing is true is to realize the foundation of society is fragile and we must be shepherds of our civilization..." Shun the Shepherd of Civilization! "to realize we are the architects of our actions and we must live with their consequences whether glorious or tragic" We didn't see any consequences yet. They may be some in the future. |
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beast_regards said: Primo_Itoko said: "Grants the ability to exceed the W system and interfere with MA field" Which explains nothing about removing skills. It explains nothing at all, as we don't know what any of those words mean. Actually, even Taboo skills don't explain the terms. The show does this constantly, drops random terms, expecting readers to somehow know what they mean. hey, don't quote me on that, I didn't say it lol They don't expect anyone to know of it, not even Kumoko knows about it, when she learns we will also learn, that's the gist of it. Just like what happened with magic, she had the skill but didn't know how to use it There are always consequences, some just take longer than others... |
Primo_Itoko said: hey, don't quote me on that, I didn't say it lol They don't expect anyone to know of it, not even Kumoko knows about it, when she learns we will also learn, that's the gist of it. Just like what happened with magic, she had the skill but didn't know how to use it... Voice of the system said this when Kumuko queried what the skill does. It wasn't meant to be copied in your quote, but whatever, you may as well dub the system too. Either way, none of those has been explained as it is now. |
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Abredon said: I admit the anime did a poor job with Oka removing Hugo's skills. It left out Oka describing the cost to her of doing that. Since Oka is the only character to know how to do it, that means we don't learn about it. This also means we don't learn certain things about Ruler privileges (which are granted by the "Ruler of X" titles). This doesn't really matter much to the story as this is pretty much a one time event, but it is a loose end that isn't dealt with. As I said, it was forgotten. Abredon said: The whole "who is Kumoko?" is a mystery that is intended to be revealed piecemeal over time. It doesn't have a single clean answer. Like everything in this story it is the "Yes, but also No" that is commonly used as the answer/non-answer to avoid spoiling things. Question of "Who is Kumiko" is slowly but surely losing its importance as more and more LN readers repeat that 80% of anime will but just Shun and harem. |
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| So if I'm understanding this discussion correctly so far, most of you conclude that the writing is mostly fine, including how and when information is revealed. Further, you seem to be saying that despite one or two problem spots, information is being withheld mostly in ways that make sense from the characters' limited points of view, and if some parts are unclear or potentially misleading, it seems logical because in those places the characters lack information or context, and the absence makes sense at that point in the story. In other words, you don't think that the anime is presenting information poorly. I'm also getting the impression that the editing in the anime isn't as good as the writing: That it's possible timeline could be presented linearly without much loss or problem, and that the story might be less confusing if told linearly from the beginning rather than jumping back and forth between the different time periods. At least from what people are saying about the structure used in the manga, it sounds like maybe starting with the spider story and then getting to the nobles later on would work just as well if not better - at least in the anime version. Still, there are trade-offs: With the current non-linear structure, we at least learn early on that this is not just a story about the spider. (As someone else said, there's more than one protagonist.) If the anime were strictly linear, I'd probably find it pretty jarring and disorienting when the story suddenly switched from just being about the spider to being about a bunch of other characters and their larger world and political contexts. But I'm not convinced yet that either structure (linear or non-linear) would resolve all of the apparent problems you've been discussing. Maybe the story would work better if it switched to showing the different characters but at the same points in time as the spider story? (Showing us snippets of the life of toddler Shun, and young boy Shun, e.g.) That could show some of their growth and development concurrently with the spider's, rather than leaping ahead 15 years just for those other characters (which is definitely confusing - at least it was to me in Ep. 1, as it doesn't orient the viewer with any indication of the time shift). In that case, if it showed those other characters at least briefly, we'd still get the sense that this is a story about a bunch of people and not just the spider, and the editing wouldn't be as problematic (or maybe the right word is "controversial"). |
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dejablu said: antigraviton said: Weak writing withholds information to try to keep the audience in suspense: it's weak because when withholding information leaves readers/viewers confused, disoriented, or frustrated, that removes the motivation to keep reading/watching I know you are talking in general and you haven't watched this anime yet, but this sounds terribly dogmatic; if I take it literally, every murder mystery would be an example of weak writing because it withholds information about who is the murderer, and not knowing it "removes the motivation to keep reading/watching"? If anything the fact the score of this anime started rising precisely after the episode that revealed it was a mystery and the audience was given reasons to make theories based on withheld information suggests the opposite to me. It might be a good writing recommendation in some contexts, but I don't think it applies to the mystery genre . I think you're equivocating here (without meaning to); mystery stories are no exception to the notion that the withholding of information has to make sense to the reader/viewer. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough before, so let me take another stab at this: No story can give all information to the reader/viewer all at once. (The genre is irrelevant; this applies to mysteries as much as any other story.) In a well-written story, information that is not available is absent because the characters haven't discovered it yet. Who Aincrad's final boss is in SAO, for instance: The characters are unaware of that until near the climax of the first major story arc, and the viewers don't get that information any sooner than the characters do. But that makes sense to us viewers, because it makes sense that the characters don't know it until they do. So it's a mystery, to both them and us, for most of that cour - but it's a mystery that makes sense. It's not a weakness of the writing. When withholding of information is a weakness of the writing is when it's done only to keep the viewer in suspense - when we get the sense that it doesn't make sense in the context of the story to withhold the information. Again, it doesn't sound like most of you think that So I'm a Spider is doing this, which is a good sign. (But pointing out that the ratings increased significantly once a certain episode revealed some vital information seems like evidence to the contrary, suggesting that the story was more confusing before that point, at least for some component[s] of the story.) g- |
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nakkki said: Do you watch GOT? Game of thrones?? Now imagine if the story of Cersei lannister and daenrys were told linearly from the time they were both born... Do you honestly think you would have enjoyed it?? Nope; I haven't seen GoT. So I can't respond to your question "Do you honestly think you would have enjoyed it??" I can, however, respond to your implication that I'm being or would be dishonest. I'm asking honest questions and attempting to discuss this anime and people's ideas here calmly and in earnest. When you responded, if you had calmly explained your point using a reference to GoT to show how a rearrangement of that story would have weakened the story and made it less enjoyable, and therefore by analogy how that also would be a bad move for the So I'm a Spider story, then that would have helped me understand the point you were trying to make much more effectively (and made me and others much more willing to listen) than impugning my character or reacting with a hostile tone does. xorion said: Most novel readers agree, at least from what I've seen in the kumo desu discord, that the way the manga has presented the story is inferior and strips most of the story of the strengths it has from its non-linear structure. The novels actually do what you suggest in that they show the perspectives of characters when they were younger early on, but I believe this was cut from the anime due to time constraints. I think this is for the best, but it'll be easier to more accurately assess the anime for what it is after the season is complete. I suggest watching more before jumping to any conclusions, as there isn't much to go off of from the first episode apart from the premise and introduction of characters. I appreciate your response, xorion. I'm trying not to jump to conclusions; that's why I'm here. :-) I also agree that it's much easier to judge an anime (or any work) after seeing the whole thing. Context is important. (But I also think it's valid to say "this is confusing me" if people are experiencing that, and to try to figure out why - is it the writing/editing, or is it just me? :-) I mean, I hope we can agree that some stories are better-written than others, right? Having said that, I'm sure we also agree that every viewer brings a somewhat different context to the show and has a somewhat different experience with it, so it's okay that some people will like a show more or understand it better than others. (To paraphrase: Anime can please some of the people some of the time.... ;=) g- |
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antigraviton said: So if I'm understanding this discussion correctly so far, most of you conclude that the writing is mostly fine, including how and when information is revealed. Further, you seem to be saying that despite one or two problem spots, information is being withheld mostly in ways that make sense from the characters' limited points of view, and if some parts are unclear or potentially misleading, it seems logical because in those places the characters lack information or context, and the absence makes sense at that point in the story. In other words, you don't think that the anime is presenting information poorly. Exactly antigraviton said: I'm also getting the impression that the editing in the anime isn't as good as the writing: That it's possible timeline could be presented linearly without much loss or problem, and that the story might be less confusing if told linearly from the beginning rather than jumping back and forth between the different time periods. At least from what people are saying about the structure used in the manga, it sounds like maybe starting with the spider story and then getting to the nobles later on would work just as well if not better - at least in the anime version. Still, there are trade-offs: With the current non-linear structure, we at least learn early on that this is not just a story about the spider. (As someone else said, there's more than one protagonist.) If the anime were strictly linear, I'd probably find it pretty jarring and disorienting when the story suddenly switched from just being about the spider to being about a bunch of other characters and their larger world and political contexts. But I'm not convinced yet that either structure (linear or non-linear) would resolve all of the apparent problems you've been discussing. Maybe the story would work better if it switched to showing the different characters but at the same points in time as the spider story? (Showing us snippets of the life of toddler Shun, and young boy Shun, e.g.) That could show some of their growth and development concurrently with the spider's, rather than leaping ahead 15 years just for those other characters (which is definitely confusing - at least it was to me in Ep. 1, as it doesn't orient the viewer with any indication of the time shift). In that case, if it showed those other characters at least briefly, we'd still get the sense that this is a story about a bunch of people and not just the spider, and the editing wouldn't be as problematic (or maybe the right word is "controversial"). It could be linear, kinda, but I honestly thing it'd be inferior.... a lot of the mystery elements would just be gone, and the humans who don't know anything about it would feel like a real hindrance to the narrative (I know some people think this already, but imagine if it all started on season 2 and you had to watch a whole season of it without Kumoko)... Showing it alongside Kumoko raises a lot of questions and keeps their progress steady, when the plot comes for Kumoko it will also come for them and we would assume it is connected and question how/when. Their job is worldbuilding and giving info out of context (sometimes context without info, but this is interchangeable with Kumoko), after they've done their share they will also participate in the plot, but, we don't know what the exact plot is yet sooo.... writing them after Kumoko's prologue is done is like writing two different prologues for two different stories that need a crossover to finish their narratives. It's counterproductive As people said the source shows us Shun's infancy and childhood which helps a lot with this sense of "ohh, the whole class has been reicarnated, this is not only about the spider" as well as the political structure of the kingdons, shame that it was cut but it's not the end of the world haha The important parts will be (re)said at some point. |
Primo_ItokoMar 28, 2021 8:46 PM
Primo_Itoko said: It could be linear, kinda, but I honestly thing it'd be inferior.... a lot of the mystery elements would just be gone, and the humans who don't know anything about it would feel like a real hindrance to the narrative (I know some people think this already, but imagine if it all started on season 2 and you had to watch a whole season of it without Kumoko)... It would be more interesting to see whether would people like Shun season more than Kumuko's one, it would ultimately show whether Shun's is better and really holds all narrative weight as LN readers claim. They might as well release both anime at the same time, and just let the people decide whether they indeed want this "full image" we heard for so long. Considering Shun adds nothing to the story to Kumuko's story, there is no reason to mix those two together anyway from the very start. So why it is there? Especially if it puzzle, and we are supposed to dig the secret hints to make sense of the story, wouldn't it be better if it was somewhere easier to find later on? So far, I have a suspicion that the generic harem protagonist simply had to be there as the story wouldn't be sold without him, as the prevalently male audience wouldn't project into the spider. So they are given the surrogate they can project into. This also explains why is Shun just so boring, along with his harem. They certainly aren't doing any worldbuilding as we didn't learn anything that isn't generic JRPG setting from them However, it is possible that Shun will now head to some region he didn't have a chance to learn about in 15 years and wasn't included in the school curriculum, so gradual revelation and worldbuilding becomes relevant. |
beast_regardsMar 29, 2021 2:52 AM
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| A prologue argument ... By the way, season 1 certainly is not a prologue. If someone claims it is, he doesn't know what prologue means. Prologue usually contains the scene relevant to the plot but doesn't introduce the main characters. If Lord of the Rings is about hobits' journey, then the prologue is Sauron's defeat and how the ring was lost. And guess what? Lord of the Rings movie has such a scene, it has an actual prologue! Taking years and years before the actual conflict of the story started (and conflict is ring resurfacing and journey to destroy it) This anime, however, doesn't have any of that. If Shun & Harem are the hobits of this story, then Kumuko is Sauron, and Prologue would be entirely about Kumuko. And it certainly is not about Kumuko, since we wouldn't have this discussion. Season 1 actually introduced us to the protagonist (Shun & Harem) and to the conflict of the story (Demon Lord is back and new Hero must rise to defeat her) ... If anything, the first season (12 episodes) is chapter 1 of the story instead! Which is fine, at this point you can object that I can't be expecting to get all answers in Chapter 1, and I will have to agree with you, conceding that I can't indeed expect everything explained from the start. But then, why is Kukumo even there? I understand why the story is named after her. Lord of the Rings certainly isn't Frodo, title is referencing the main antagonist instead. But why we can't have her early days told separately? |
beast_regardsMar 29, 2021 3:38 AM
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dejablu said: There is no hard rule the main character of a story can't be in the prologue, especially an extended one (random example, without bothering other mediums: Vinland Saga). The anime audience calls four seasons of Attack on Titan a Prologue. Basically, everything that isn't the finale, is a prologue, in their mind. And as far as Vinland Saga goes, I didn't watch all of it, but obviously, nothing past 1st episode is a prologue. I would even question whether Vinland Saga has a prologue, as the death of the protagonist's father is clearly inciting an incident. dejablu said: Obviously not, since Shun's perspective is part of Kumoko's story and mainly exists to present the main conflict of Kumoko's story. Everyone has been telling you that Shun is not the *protagonist* and his side of Kumoko's story is 100% about Kumoko even if it isn't revealed yet how she is involved in it (it will by the end of season 1), but you keep misrepresenting what people tell you. . People are not only telling me that Shun is analogous to hobits in Lord of the Ring, i.e. protagonist and main character, they are also telling me 80% of the anime is Shun antics, which confirms that. It's actually what people project for a second season. We will see whether they are right. dejablu said: The fact you understand Shun's character yet you don't even consider the possibility that he isn't written to be liked by the audience (yeah, that shot of the feast Shun and Co. were having in episode 1 transitioning to Kumoko's eating poison was totally there to make you root for Shun, right?) gives all sorts of red flags you aren't arguing in good faith (add to that how you constantly misrepresent other people's arguments). He is a harem protagonist. An audience surrogate. I am not supposed to like him even in the absolutely best-case scenario, I am supposed to imagine I am him and all ladies in the world are into me. This is not necessarily a problem as I watched the harem anime before, and I don't have a problem with a concept of a harem show, however, there is clearly an option to the more unique and interesting story here other isekai don't have. Note that most of my arguments would disappear if they made two anime out of it, and handled it in the same way as Certain Magical Index / Scientific Railgun Everyone would watch both, or watch the part they connect with more. Actually, it would be even much better as there would be a visible choice of two kinds of stories in one setting which do relate, but go their own direction while indirectly influencing each other. |
beast_regardsMar 29, 2021 5:11 AM
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dejablu said: The entire first season is the prologue, the rest of the story timeskips and follows the MC's adult life, introducing a different main conflict. I don't remember if the last episode of the anime ended with "end of prologue" screen (probably it did, I just don't remember), but the manga did. I suppose anime imagines prologue differently. Eastern storytelling structure is different, so an image what consist of a prologue could be completely different. So, if season 1 is a prologue, then I wonder what actual story would be. dejablu said: 80% is a bit of an exaggeration, but I understand their exasperation. At least now you acknowledge nobody mentioned "harem" antics, which is how you misrepresented their argument in your previous post. They also were talking about the second cour, not the second season; a second season (eps. 25-48) would have zero Shun perspectives (Elf sensei would have a minor role in it though), since by that time the frontloading of the main conflict would have achieved its narrative purpose. Shun would return in a third season. Which I wouldn’t know, because I didn’t read the novel. I’ve read the manga, but manga doesn’t cover it either, and you argue that manga practically isn’t a canon story, so I have a right to be confused with the limited information I have dejablu said: I can't believe you are seriously arguing this in good faith. I can, because I still can’t understand why Shun even is the story since the start, it started this entire thread. So I can just make wild, and probably wrong, guesses, and that's pretty much it, as it relies on the knowledge from the novel to actually prove me wrong. You can prove me wrong anytime by bringing in the novel, that's the point. |
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beast_regards said: Note that most of my arguments would disappear if they made two anime out of it, and handled it in the same way as Certain Magical Index / Scientific Railgun Everyone would watch both, or watch the part they connect with more. Actually, it would be even much better as there would be a visible choice of two kinds of stories in one setting which do relate, but go their own direction while indirectly influencing each other. It has literally nothing to do with Index structure. Toaru Majutsu no Index is the main series, while Railgun builds on top of it. Human Side and Kumoko Side are intrinsically connected and the story doesn't work without one or the other, you NEED both sides, they're ONE story. |
AiHikari said: It has literally nothing to do with Index structure. Toaru Majutsu no Index is the main series, while Railgun builds on top of it. Human Side and Kumoko Side are intrinsically connected and the story doesn't work without one or the other, you NEED both sides, they're ONE story. Then I hope anime will reveal how they are connected in the next 12 episodes. |
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I'll call a prologue everything that needs to be said before we start the main plot, but we can differ here, that's not the point. beast_regards said: Considering Shun adds nothing to the story to Kumuko's story, there is no reason to mix those two together anyway from the very start. So why it is there? Especially if it puzzle, and we are supposed to dig the secret hints to make sense of the story, wouldn't it be better if it was somewhere easier to find later on? Hey there, now now, Shun adds nothing to the story? You wouldn't know about the war without him(since they would have no reason to show Demon Lord side without his), you wouldn't know the Hero title goes to a next person after the hero is dead, you wouldn't know the church wants everyone to raise their levels, you wouldn't know the elves want everyone to have as few levels as possible, you wouldn't know Kumoko was not the only one reicarnated from that classroom, you wouldn't know she was not the only one not reicarnated as a human, you wouldn't know the old geezer is an important magician for the human empire, etc etc etc Would it be better, especially if it's a puzzle? why would you debate who is Kumoko in the future without a future perspective? why would you debate if the is a time difference if there's nothing to compare it to? why would you be suspicous of ruler skills if sensei didn't use one? beast_regards said: So far, I have a suspicion that the generic harem protagonist simply had to be there as the story wouldn't be sold without him, as the prevalently male audience wouldn't project into the spider. So they are given the surrogate they can project into. This also explains why is Shun just so boring, along with his harem. They certainly aren't doing any worldbuilding as we didn't learn anything that isn't generic JRPG setting from them Except everybody loves Kumoko and agrees that she carries the show while a good number of people hate Shun... People said, myself included, that this story needs both perspectives since, unlike Railgun where best girl has her own conflicts, Shun's and Kumoko's are the same. But this is coming from source knowledge, you don't need to agree with us since it doesn't make sense yet. If you choose not to trust it that's fine as well, we can come back to this debate later |
Primo_Itoko said: Hey there, now now, Shun adds nothing to the story? Shun adds nothing to the story of Kumuko. Kumuko adds very little to the story of Shun as it is now. Most connections are only references that only make the story more puzzling. Both stories, as they are now, can be easily told separately without missing anything really important except knowing what they are referencing, which really has very minor importance. Because it's Shun-story that confirms there were multiple people reincarnated in this world. You assume Demon Lord is his classmate, whether it is true is irrelevant. You don't even need to know who Kumoko is to watch Shun's story! You even admit that greater connection requires the novel. At this point, I should've either go read the novel, or quit anime in frustration. I did neither, which is counter-intuitive behavior in this case. That's why we have this conversation. I am curious where anime actually makes a meaningful connection between the stories, if ever. And to do that, I actually shouldn't read the novel until I watch 24th episode. |
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beast_regards said: Shun adds nothing to the story of Kumuko. Kumuko adds very little to the story of Shun as it is now. Most connections are only references that only make the story more puzzling. I made sure to say everything that I remember that HAS connections to Kumoko's story, but ok. And like taking it out would make this story not a puzzle at all, just two generic isekais that would have a good pay off at the end but would also scare away generic isekai fans after the tone change... beast_regards said: You even admit that greater connection requires the novel. At this point, I should've either go read the novel, or quit anime in frustration. I did neither, which is counter-intuitive behavior in this case. That's why we have this conversation. I am curious where anime actually makes a meaningful connection between the stories, if ever. And to do that, I actually shouldn't read the novel until I watch 24th episode. It does require, you will have it. That's why I said we can come back to this later. And AGAIN, reading the novel DOES NOT help, if you quit the anime in frustration you would quit the novel sooner(specially the WN). I'm talking about future knowledge that willl come to you eventually not what has been skipped since is nothing insanely important. |
Primo_ItokoMar 29, 2021 9:25 AM
ShururuRuun said:
Three of those points come from the human side of the story, so it works independently from Kumoko's part of the story and doesn't even require knowledge that Kumoko herself exists. The last point - an effect of Taboo skill - is the main motivation for Kumoko and has very little effect on the human side of the story as they don't know anything about the skill other than it exists and its wielders must be killed. Not to mention that others are already saying that Taboo skill is lying, which invalidates this point even more. At best, it creates tension between Yuri and Shun and Fei, but what the skill really does is irrelevant to them. |
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ShururuRuun said: Also, what you have seen until now is that Kumoko has direct and measurable consequences for the human side, albeit most of them unintended: For example, Ronandt successfully defends the human fort he was in. But this is only possible because he has seen the "nightmare of the labyrinth" 15 years ago, and knows that there are monsters out there with far greater magic abilities than he has. Barely surviving, he has enough time after that event to plan and train accordingly for the future. I think he even remarks how he was arrogant in the past. It is an indirect impact that has a little effect on the story so far other than being a cool reference as I mentioned. And knowing about the threat from the monster is ... actually, kinda irrelevant, as the story doesn't feel like there is any real threat despite how powerful Kumuko actually is. Also, it's kinda ironic how Kumuko is a threat when the Elf Teacher can remove skills on will and uses her skill against what should be nominally their side. Ultimately, Kumuko can only kill you, she doesn't remove who you are. |
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beast_regards said: ShururuRuun said: Also, what you have seen until now is that Kumoko has direct and measurable consequences for the human side, albeit most of them unintended: For example, Ronandt successfully defends the human fort he was in. But this is only possible because he has seen the "nightmare of the labyrinth" 15 years ago, and knows that there are monsters out there with far greater magic abilities than he has. Barely surviving, he has enough time after that event to plan and train accordingly for the future. I think he even remarks how he was arrogant in the past. It is an indirect impact that has a little effect on the story so far other than being a cool reference as I mentioned. And knowing about the threat from the monster is ... actually, kinda irrelevant, as the story doesn't feel like there is any real threat despite how powerful Kumuko actually is. Also, it's kinda ironic how Kumuko is a threat when the Elf Teacher can remove skills on will and uses her skill against what should be nominally their side. Ultimately, Kumuko can only kill you, she doesn't remove who you are. Skills, skills huuh.. Well on the threat level, at this point Kumoko isn't even close to her Mother in terms of strength, even tho she's very powerful. |
beast_regards said: Ultimately, Kumuko can only kill you, she doesn't remove who you are. Hey now, don't go hating our spider, she can do more than just kill. And removing skills doesn't remove who you are it just... removes your skills. |
AiHikari said: Skills, skills huuh.. Well on the threat level, at this point Kumoko isn't even close to her Mother in terms of strength, even tho she's very powerful. Kumuko's mother roams somewhere around the dungeon, or in the dungeon, yet the team led by Rolant missed her on the way in. They also missed Araba and two other named dragons Kumuko avoided. I can entirely rule out they don't have any detection skills helping them avoid the encounters in the same way Kumuko avoids the other two Earth dragons, but they didn't see Kumuko hanging from the ceiling... When Julius traveled to the labyrinth he stopped by the academy which means the academy full of children (children of supposedly important people) is close to the area that a huge spider roams. The school doesn't feel like it is in danger of huge spiders, or any monsters for what matters. dejablu said: This is another red flag you are arguing in bad faith.. Debating in bad faith mean insulting the opponent, which I believe I didn't do... |
beast_regardsMar 29, 2021 1:28 PM
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Primo_Itoko said: Hey now, don't go hating our spider, she can do more than just kill. And removing skills doesn't remove who you are it just... removes your skills. In a world working entirely under an RPG game logic, who are you if not the sum of your skills and stats? |
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If I complain about what is in the anime and then used information from the manga, it would be hypocritical, wouldn't it? |
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beast_regards said: Primo_Itoko said: Hey now, don't go hating our spider, she can do more than just kill. And removing skills doesn't remove who you are it just... removes your skills. In a world working entirely under an RPG game logic, who are you if not the sum of your skills and stats? Oh yeah who cares about personality, what a bunch of losers.... I never thought that videogame logic would be such a diservice to tabletop RPGs... |
Primo_Itoko said: Oh yeah who cares about personality, what a bunch of losers.... I never thought that videogame logic would be such a diservice to tabletop RPGs... Did everyone write the character's biography in your D&D session? (Finally, this is not a complaint about anime, but since there is no episode this week I may be bored) |
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beast_regards said: Primo_Itoko said: Oh yeah who cares about personality, what a bunch of losers.... I never thought that videogame logic would be such a diservice to tabletop RPGs... Did everyone write the character's biography in your D&D session? (Finally, this is not a complaint about anime, but since there is no episode this week I may be bored) I don't know about the people you play with but the one time I played D&D, yes they did. I usually play GURPS, but my group cares about that. And to say it's not only my group there is Vampire: The Masquerade, a system that values interpretation and character drama, as well as all the horror systems, Call of Cthulhu being the most famous. |
Primo_ItokoMar 29, 2021 2:01 PM
Anime describe the Ruler skill as "Grants the ability to exceed the W system and interfere with MA field" and no one explains what either of those terms really means. It's a pretty vague definition. Primo_Itoko said: I don't know about the people you play with but the one time I played D&D, yes they did. I usually play GURPS, but my group cares about that. And to say it's not only my group there is Vampire: The Masquerade, a system that values interpretation and character drama, as well as all the horror systems, Call of Cthulhu being the most famous. oh, active roleplayers. That's good, I guess. |
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