RealTheAbsurdist said: How is it strange? A lot of the arguments I'm seeing on this thread are along the lines of, "Well, the creators intended it so that the characters don't look like a specific race." Why does the creators' intention matter? It is strange because the idea that the "death of the author" argument pushes is that it is up to each individual reader to come up with an interpretation, that everybody can find their own meaning in a text and that there is no "right interpretation". Of course this position is debatable but the fact that you use this exact argument although it proceeds from a logic that goes against the rest of your argumentation is weird. RealTheAbsurdist said: That argument is self-contradictory: if Usagi from Sailor Moon is not supposed to look white, why does she look white? Light skin (although this trait isn't exclusive to whites), blonde hair and blue eyes, those last two, are white traits. The thing is she is not supposed to look non-white, not anymore than she is supposed to look white : she is supposed to look cute and iconic. You perceive those traits as white traits, but the Japanese, and many MAL users, don't perceive these traits, in the context of anime, to necessarily have that meaning : there is a difference between reality and fiction. In anime, little girls can be sharpshooters, grandpas can jump from buildings to buildings, and non-white characters can have light skin. It's as simple as that. RealTheAbsurdist said: By that logic, can't Afro from Afro Samurai be interpreted as Asian? He's an anime character, which are, according to the responses on this thread, are meant to be abstract. Nobody ever says what Afro's ethnicity is. He's from Japan. So by that logic, shouldn't he be Asian? The difference here is that his being an "African-looking" person is actually relevant, as it is even present in the title. But if it isn't explicitly stated that he is actually of African descent, then in fact nothing prevents you from believing he is actually part of another ethnic group but looks this way because of some weird genetic event or for whatever reason you may imagine. Also, is it that hard to conceive that with time, white and Asian characters have come to often look very similar in anime because of a high concern for variety in the designs, but that this doesn't in any way mean that the same has happened with black and Asian people ? You can't just take this kind of thing in a vacuum and look at it with your own personal logic if you want to understand it, you have to take context into account. |
thizlasNov 24, 2019 3:58 PM
| Why don’t you ask the Japanese. Here. This guy from bungo stray dogs is Russian, but dose he look any different from the Japanese?  |
Old_School_AkiraNov 24, 2019 3:52 PM
| HACKs! 🤢🤮 |
RealTheAbsurdist said: Actually, I agree that they often look white to me, as someone who grew up in the United States. If you were to give me a giant stack of photos of all sorts of people and ask me what a given character might look like, for a good number of anime characters I would probably pick someone who's white.GlennMagusHarvey said: Color defined rather strictly by reflected/emitted light wavelengths ranges. Race isn't defined like this. Race is defined by a series of traits, only two of which are hair color and eye color. You may note that she doesn't share eye shape, nose shape, or mouth shape with any white person, even if she may share approximate hair color and presumed hair texture (albeit not hairstyle) and eye color with some white people. Race is more complex than just hair and eye colors. Heck, it's not even just visual traits. True, race is more complex than that, but anime characters' facial and nose structures do not resemble actual people to begin with: their faces are often too triangular, and they barely have noses. I've heard that people argue that small noses and more linear facial structures are Asian traits, but this is a case where its exaggerated to a point where it doesn't even resemble the real thing. I think we're miscommunicating what we're trying to debate: I'm trying to argue that anime characters look white, while you (correct me if I'm wrong) are trying to argue that anime characters' race don't matter. However, the fact that a Japanese person may look at the same character and think they're Japanese, shows that different people are using different standards/expectations to discern race/ethnicity of anime characters. So, to answer your opening question: how to differentiate between white and Asian characters? Well, first, ask yourself if that difference is meaningful (in a fantasy setting, for example, it probably isn't). If it is meaningful, then there's generally some context clues to tell you, beyond the characters' appearance. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
RealTheAbsurdist said: WHY white and Asian anime characters look similar has nothing to do with my argument: my argument is, "anime characters look white." Well, that's how you perceive it, but factual evidence shows that the Japanese and many other people (me included) don't see them as "white" (if by white you roughly mean of European descent). |
thizlasNov 24, 2019 4:10 PM
I don't know if I am very qualified to answer that question but here are some hypotheses : -The first reason why that could be is that a character being white makes it very easy for any person who hasn't a very tan skin to project their own ethnicity onto it. -Another one could be that, manga being drawn in black-and-white, Japanese people have grown accustomed to this kind of indifferenciation in character designs between what in real life are a lot of different skin colors, and have come to presuppose that every character that doesn't have an explicit enough reason not to be Asian is Asian. -Character-designs often being rather abstract, explicit contextual information is almost always privileged to infer what race a character is. And most characters that you find to look white do in fact have Japanese names, speak Japanese, act Japanese : there are a lot more explicit reasons to believe that they are Asian than there are to believe that they aren't, because nearly everybody sees hair and skin color as being variable in anime by convention, whereas a lot less people consider that Japanese culture could just as well be manifested by an entire setting which isn't actually Asian, except when it is, again, explicitly stated (as in Fantasy). -If you showed the character-designs to people in a vacuum, results would probably be a bit more contrasted, as some people would try to tell the ethnicity of the character by looking at their specific features (eye shape, etc.). But I still think most would identify the general "anime-style" with Japan subconsciously and thus infer that the majority of characters that look even remotely close to Asian people are Asian. If you asked the question to people who don't know about anime, most people might guess they are actually white, but anyone who has had contacts with the culture that surrounds it is has chances to be influenced by it and lean towards the "they look Asian" guess. |
thizlasAug 22, 2023 10:28 AM
| you cant as they are drawings and dont have actual races |
| Easy, asians don't have blue eyes nor blond hair |
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RealTheAbsurdist said: De fuck you mean the complexity of what goes into character design doesn't matter. If the design process doesn't matter then what steps do you take in order to make sure a character looks a specific way and in model to what they are supposed to look like according to the mindset of the author when creating the character in the first place which you are using to say said character has to be this race because in real life those traits will be found in these ethnic groups The complexity of character designs is completely irrelevant to the discussion, thus, the analogy of the square and circle makes sense. We're not talking about how complex anime characters' designs are, we're talking about whether they look like a specific ethnic group. RealTheAbsurdist said: Nih just asking but you don't think asians are yellow skinned right?If racial features don't matter to the creators, why are they implementing racial features? Light skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, these are racial features. Because when I look at my skin pigment and the skin pigment of my asian friends its not any different as far as my eye can see. Because I'm honestly starting be heavily complexed about why you bring up light skin tone like if that tells you if a character is asian or not be it real life or not Again no one is disagreeing with you that in real life blonde hair and blue eyes are commonly found in Caucasian people But why is it so hard for you to understand that even if you can find those things in real life the authors aren't using those traits to say a character is this ethnicity when it comes to their depiction of characters physically They are using whatever colours they think fits the character and makes them appealing Do you think Hata was thinking I have to make sure these characters look ethnically Japanese for the readers to know they are Japanese despite them living in Japan, speaking Japanese along with going to Japanese school  The abstraction is using whatever colours and features they think fits and can put to mind regardless if you can find a in real life counterpart or not when depicting the human form in their work RealTheAbsurdist said: I didn't say only the uniforms tell you. Its seeing the context of what is happening. Do you need to actually see the uniforms to understand that basically everyone who gets killed here is Japanese and those killing them are BritanianAgain, your argument for Code Geass demands that we are told by the story whether a character is Japanese. In a visual medium, we should have a basic idea of what a character's ethnicity is, without it being told, but shown through basic visuals, aka, the character designs. As for the uniform thing, the characters aren't always in their uniforms, so how do we tell who's Japanese/Britanian then? Also, the only way of being able to differentiate between characters' ethnicity through uniforms is a cheap way of differentiating between different ethnic groups. Do you need to be able to racially profile every single character like if its real life in this scene to truly know we didn't see a Japanese character kill a Britanian Nih? Again you see who is what visually too even if we ignore uniforms if paying attention to the context of what someone is doing on screen along with natural dialogue of course I admit since thats not a bad thing to be included |
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RealTheAbsurdist said: Because they're not using the same set of race-reading traits as you are.GlennMagusHarvey said: However, the fact that a Japanese person may look at the same character and think they're Japanese, shows that different people are using different standards/expectations to discern race/ethnicity of anime characters. Okay, so I get why people think anime characters are Japanese based on what the story of the anime says, but why do they think anime characters look Japanese? For example, you're going "light skin, blond hair, blue eyes, must be white", while someone else is going "light skin, narrow nose, rounder face structure with softer jawline, appears in anime, must be Japanese", or something like that. The video you posted actually has people highlighting just how generic a number of anime characters look, to the point where you can run off with various combinations of observed traits and choose your own interpretation. |
GlennMagusHarveyNov 24, 2019 5:13 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
RealTheAbsurdist said: I think the part you're missing is that "looks like" is actually partly a function of the viewer.@Deknijff An analogy doesn't have to have the same level of complexity as the thing it's being compared to. Simple analogies have been used to explain something much more complex before. I didn't say that light skin is exclusively a white trait, I said that it's a racial trait: whites, Asians, some Latinos, have light skin. I don't care why Japanese creators make the characters have traits that in reality only whites have, my argument is that anime characters look white. Wouldn't it be much more effective in Code Geass, if the characters actually looked like the ethnicity they're supposed to represent? I don't understand why you want to argue about this part. In other words, what you think looks like a given race/ethnicity isn't necessarily what someone else thinks looks like that. And it's actually rather common for people to perceive a generic-looking character as a default race similar to their own or similar to a race they're used to seeing in real life. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
RealTheAbsurdist said: I can't say whats more effective or not since it doesn't even matter when it comes to the plot developments of the show nor my understanding of whats happening since there is nothing hard to understand when seeing the show itself@Deknijff An analogy doesn't have to have the same level of complexity as the thing it's being compared to. Simple analogies have been used to explain something much more complex before. I didn't say that light skin is exclusively a white trait, I said that it's a racial trait: whites, Asians, some Latinos, have light skin. I don't care why Japanese creators make the characters have traits that in reality only whites have, my argument is that anime characters look white. Wouldn't it be much more effective in Code Geass, if the characters actually looked like the ethnicity they're supposed to represent? I don't understand why you want to argue about this part. Ah well if you don't care then I guess I wasted all my time on someone who didn't want to understand and just want to say characters look slightly like a specific type of caucasians sometimes in their eyes thanks Nih  |
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RealTheAbsurdist said: But you might not be able to tell what make or model or style it is. Or, depending on how you draw it, whether it's even a car, or, say, a station wagon or an SUV.GlennMagusHarvey said: I think the part you're missing is that "looks like" is actually partly a function of the viewer. In other words, what you think looks like a given race/ethnicity isn't necessarily what someone else thinks looks like that. How? If I draw a very complex, detailed, abstract car, it will still look like a car. I can add bumps, triangle parts, but the fact of the matter is, it looks like a car. Or, well, you almost certainly can since you're the one drawing it. But someone else, no necessarily. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Steiner1411 said: I have come to the conclusion that they are just asian characters who look white for some reason Sounds like hapa. Keanu Reeves had a bit of an anime look earlier in his career and people have been begging for him to play Spike for years. |
RealTheAbsurdist said: nanimeanswhat said: ^ This person here has given just the right answer but the OP is somehow ignoring it lol Why do I have to respond to literally every post for everyone to know I read every post? Woah calm down I've never said that you had to respond to every post. Geez... |
| If you read Eleceed you're automatically my friend. |
| Through names or mentions about their origin. Seriously, I don't even care what their ethnicity is. It doesn't translate they'd be interesting enough of a character. |
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| For one, anime characters don't even look human, let alone like white or Asian people. Nobody has bug eyes 1/3rd the size of the head, pointy chins that could pierce into the earth's core, or dots for noses. Anime characters also have blue, green, pink, and even rainbow colored hair with gradients, doesn't mean they're feminists or came straight out of an 80's disco. Anime character designs were initially inspired by Disney characters, but later became their own thing with highly stylized designs and even more exaggerated features, more for the sake of efficiency (easier to draw, animate, and create multiple characters without coming up with a unique face each time) than to realistically represent any particular races. So most of the times, the only way to know if a character is white in a typical "anime" looking anime is if the anime itself tells you that they're white, especially when it comes to females. |
| One of those things is a skin pigmentation, one is a region. There are asians with lighter skin than caucasian western people. This just comes off as more obsessing over race and ethnicity. I guess if I'm going to answer the question, I'd say: By their names. Assuming you mean white = western. Also whenever this topic comes up I post this video: Notice how many Japanese people look for indicators other than skin color? Yeah. Interesting that. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| @YossaRedMage I never said that light skin is exclusive to whites, but the theory of anime characters being designed to look racially vague as possible contradicts itself when they have traits that are racial: light skin is a trait that whites, Asians, and maybe some Latinos, possess. Blonde hair and blue eyes are white traits. The fact that anime characters have traits like purple hair, green hair, is irrelevant. In the video, the "indicators" were very vague: things like, "whites having bigger noses" doesn't make sense, because most anime characters barely have noses to begin with. White anime characters who do have a more clearly designed nose, their nose doesn't look any different than a Japanese person:      |
| @RealTheAbsurdist LOL so I went to google and image searched "Japanese people" becuase I can't say I spend much time looking at noses so I wanted to have a look and see if they seem smaller or anything. Can I say first of all how weird it felt to stare at noses for like two minutes. It got the point where ther faces just looked like giant noses lmao... Anyway, I really can't imagine this is one of those smoke without fire situations, but at the same time I can't say for sure if I can tell any difference between Japanese noses and western ones. ... So I googled specifically asking if Japanese noses are smaller and there's enough people talking about it that I have to believe that, on average, it's true. As to the thing about racially vague designs, it's been a while since I watched the vid myself and I don't want to watch it again, but I think I rememeber what was said. Either way, the point I think is that anime characters are designed in a way that is racially vague, but that isn't the specific intention, just a byproduct. Light skin happnes to be a Japanese beauty standard so they design most anime characters to be more on the fair side, but still not a complexion which Japanese people can't have sometimes, though it's rare. Either way the main point is how some of the Japanese people in that vid thought it was a strange thing to do because they're anime characters and not designed to look like real people most of the time. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
I don't really care what race a characters is. I'm more interested in their personalities, their actions, and what they have to say. Something like Fate/Aporcrypha is interesting because there's some racial/cultural diversity amongst the servants like: William Shakespeare (English), Avicebron (Jewish), Karna (Indian), Atalanta (Greek), Semiramis (Assyrian), Vlad Tepes (Romanian), Jeanne d'Arc (French), and even a coloured skin Shirou (Amakusa) Kotomine - who's interesting (to me) because he's trying to save the whole of humanity. He wishes for everyone to throw away their selfishness and create a world where everyone is saved and happy. He simply wished the happiness of all mankind, for innate goodness to be found in the heart of all humanity and the annihilation of Angra Mainyu: All the Evils of the World. Wow, that's my kinda guy :D |
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