Maou_heika said: Them getting offended isn't hypocritical, because in their society dogs serve a different role from the role they serve in chinese society. As I explained before, granting special protection to one or two species of animals and pushing them into the pet-role makes a lot of sense and isn't an arbitrary practice itself, even if you randomly select the pet-species from a host of viable candidate-species (such as chicken).Railey2 said: As someone who has pet chickens let me just ask you how much have you interacted with chickens? How much do you know about how they behave, how they react to situations and display their emotions? Chickens make good pets, I can tell you that from personal experience. I've also had dogs in the past but I always ended up getting more attached to my chickens compared to my dog.chicken aren't as emotionally relatable because they aren't mammals, so they're probably worse suited than house cats. Not to say that they would make bad pets, but there's certainly better. In any case, they (perhaps predictably, given their usefulness) fell into a different role, and one that doesn't come with privileges. Again, I don't see how this is hypocritical. Chicken clearly have properties that make them different from cats and dogs. Only because they'd hypothetically also make good pets, doesn't mean that it's hypocritical, because unlike cats and dogs they're also good meat- and eggfarms. So that's what they're mainly used for. Actually I changed my mind slightly upon further consideration. The thing is that even if chicken and dogs were completely equal in any way shape or form, it still makes sense for society to specialize and exclusively use one species as pets while exclusively farming the other. Because at the end of the day, we want to eat meat, but we also want to own pets. It doesn't make psychological sense to muddy the waters by having both species as both meatfarms and pets simultaneously. Either way, the role that is assigned to the species would dictate how they will be treated, so even if the roles are arbitrarily assigned, it STILL doesn't mean that you'd be hypocritical for treating one kind differently based on the arbitrary role. Then why do other countries take offence against the Yulin festival? The Chinese have arbitrarily decided that dogs can be eaten, is it not hypocrisy on part of those who try to stop them (unless they are vegan or vegetarian)?Because we have to have the roles one way or another if we want it all. And we do want it all. It'd be hypocritical if they got offended at the Chinese and then turned around and ate dogs themselves. |
| *lampoons inwardly* |
Peaceful_Critic said: traed said: Oh, I wasn't specific. I was talking about the general topic(I agreed with you). The difference between you and the predator is that they need to eat meat and are important, to control invasive species. It's more moral just to painlessly kill them, and stop breeding them for food(Cows, chickens and pigs). The meat and dairy industry are killing large portions of animals indiscriminately(not just for food). Is palm oil environmentally bad? Yes, but that isn't the topic. You are deflecting. Palm oil being bad doesn't excuse meat and dairy(How it's been negatively affecting the enviorment).You're reading into the grammar wrong. I said not everywhere not everywhere they do not. No predator in wild means environmental harm which in turn harms animals. Predators in wild means harm to the animals. Keeping the meat industry means harm to the animals. It's a lose lose lose situation there. Harm is unavoidable in the given circumstances and in all scenarios is caused by human choice. So the real ethics question doesn't lie in the ethics of if causing the death of an animal is wrong because here it's unavoidable. It's a matter of what is the best as a whole in the short and long term for animals including humans. You know what the other major environmental damage is? Palm oil manufacturing. That isn't a meat or animal byproduct. That is in no measure by any stretch a scientific fact as far as I am aware. Oysters have a central nervous system so they can respond to external stimulus but they lack a brain to process that information as pain as we know it is what the normal view of understanding is. As I already explained in another post if you extend the notion of the possability of something feeling pain that isn't commonly accepted by science majority as such then you have to admit plants may also feel pain. This means any root vegetables and so on are immoral to eat. There even is evidence to support they might. It should not be simplified to a matter of pain vs no pain but rather a spectrum of pain. A fish doesn't feel pain like a dolphin would. Pain is a weak argument against meat and byiproducts, to begin with anyway because there are painless ways to kill animals or you can genetically modify them to feel no pain. Plants don't even have a nervous system unlike oysters who do, so there is a higher chance oysters do feel the pain. Though I do admit both don't have a brain and don't move, so they'll have no need nor the ability to process it. The ability to feel pain is being questioned as a reason not if they got killed painlessly. Killing is immoral in other ways. However, if you need to eat anything, it's best to eat something the least likely to feel pain. I don't see why this will be a bad philosophy to go by. The more nuanced answer isn't always the correct one. Palm industry wasn't argument for animal and animal byproducts. It was an argument of how not all harm to animals comes from the meat, dairy and egg industries. While some vegans and vegetarians consider this many do not. Keep in mind there is a difference between pain responce and cognition of pain. So it's not just what feels pain but the type it feels. Though understanding of mortality holds an importance of factor as well. For example elephants mourn the dead so they seem to understand what dying means. Dogs sometimes seemingly mourn the loss of their owners and act depressed if a dog they were close with is no longer around . Why this has to be a factor is I am unsure if there is a direct correlation between level of inteligence and level of pain. We know some humans are born with a defect that causes them to feel no pain yet they show no signs of cognitived disability. There are some nutrients or forms of nutrients that are better absorbed and bioavailable that only exist in animals. For example creatine, taurine amd heme iron. Creatine our bodies make but it's questiinable if we make enough for optimal health. Even more suspect is taurine which is likely not made in our body enough. The only vegan way to get taurine is synthetic lab made taurine which is not exactly an environmentally friendly method. The other way is use l-cysteine but this can not be obtained from plants only non meat source is the hair and feathers of animals. Again since these are not edible it would require heavy processing. The only other way is get cysteine through methionine or serine. Methionine however also converts to homocysteine which is bad for heart health and methionine is known to exacerbate schizophrenia and bipolar symptoms. Going from serine to cysteine to taurine isn't all that efficient because part of the cysteine becomes glutathione. Non heme iron doesnt absorb efficietly enough which is why heme iron is prefered. Though I suspect since it's a metal it should be able to be harvested somehow. i dont know how though. DHA doesn't come from plants but is vital for the brain. It can come from alpha lipoic acid which can be from plants but it's inefficient of a conversion so levels of DHA are lower in vegetarians and vegans. However DHA and EPA can be sourced from algae but problem here is with the algae comes carageenan which is a suspected carcinogen and intestinal irritant so you have to pick between that and harvested DHA EPA supplaments from an algal source but that comes with the increase on environmental damage. Though i suppose algae can be genetically modified to remove some of the bad aspects. Though i should note red algae has a carageenan that may have a pharmaseuticle application. So it's difficult to weigh. Oysters move and so do plants. Unless by move you mean walk or slither or crawl. |
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| The reason is mostly cultural. Different animals are eatable in different cultures. |
  Never explain, Never retract, Never apologize Just get the thing done And let them howl |
WatchTillTandava said: A donkey stew or donkey ragu over pasta is very tenderly made and popular in northern Italy (cities like Verona). I can see why eating certain reptiles or insects or even some seafood variants like gangly cephalopods can feel strange and alien, but I don't get why anything about donkey would seem more strange or off-putting than a pig or a chicken. damn i actually didnt know that. nice to know now |
 |
Peaceful_Critic said: traed said: I'm assuming you mean the harm coming from deforestation. Environmental vegans do, health and ethical vegans wouldn't care as that wouldn't be their reason for being vegan. Palm industry wasn't argument for animal and animal byproducts. It was an argument of how not all harm to animals comes from the meat, dairy and egg industries. While some vegans and vegetarians consider this many do not. Keep in mind there is a difference between pain responce and cognition of pain. So it's not just what feels pain but the type it feels. Though understanding of mortality holds an importance of factor as well. For example elephants mourn the dead so they seem to understand what dying means. Dogs sometimes seemingly mourn the loss of their owners and act depressed if a dog they were close with is no longer around . Why this has to be a factor is I am unsure if there is a direct correlation between level of inteligence and level of pain. We know some humans are born with a defect that causes them to feel no pain yet they show no signs of cognitived disability. There are some nutrients or forms of nutrients that are better absorbed and bioavailable that only exist in animals. For example creatine, taurine amd heme iron. Creatine our bodies make but it's questiinable if we make enough for optimal health. Even more suspect is taurine which is likely not made in our body enough. The only vegan way to get taurine is synthetic lab made taurine which is not exactly an environmentally friendly method. The other way is use l-cysteine but this can not be obtained from plants only non meat source is the hair and feathers of animals. Again since these are not edible it would require heavy processing. The only other way is get cysteine through methionine or serine. Methionine however also converts to homocysteine which is bad for heart health and methionine is known to exacerbate schizophrenia and bipolar symptoms. Going from serine to cysteine to taurine isn't all that efficient because part of the cysteine becomes glutathione. Non heme iron doesnt absorb efficietly enough which is why heme iron is prefered. Though I suspect since it's a metal it should be able to be harvested somehow. i dont know how though. DHA doesn't come from plants but is vital for the brain. It can come from alpha lipoic acid which can be from plants but it's inefficient of a conversion so levels of DHA are lower in vegetarians and vegans. However DHA and EPA can be sourced from algae but problem here is with the algae comes carageenan which is a suspected carcinogen and intestinal irritant so you have to pick between that and harvested DHA EPA supplaments from an algal source but that comes with the increase on environmental damage. Though i suppose algae can be genetically modified to remove some of the bad aspects. Though i should note red algae has a carageenan that may have a pharmaseuticle application. So it's difficult to weigh. Oysters move and so do plants. Unless by move you mean walk or slither or crawl. Why not consider both? Even then most meat eaten by the west are mammals with that cognition of pain(i.e cows, pigs, and chickens). Cysteine isn't essential("Cysteine is a non-essential sulfur-containing amino acid in humans,")as is Taurine(...produced in the body via biosynthesis). Which in the nutrient world means there's already ways aside from food to get it(usually by the body). Most people aren't health nuts trying to be the healthiest in the room. If you can sustain from eating Cysteine, Taurine, and Creatine without experiencing any side effects than it isn't needed. Absorption of iron can be boosted with vitamin C(Proof)So as long as they have a carrot with chickpeas it'll be fine. Taurine can be found in smaller amount in plant sources. As for DHA and EPA, you are picking between two evils environmental wise, but ethically I'll argue for the algae. If in order, to fulfill a nutritional need, you have to harm the environment, then it'll best to do what you offered here: "Though i suppose algae can be genetically modified to remove some of the bad aspects." Regardless, it's unquestionable that you can be perfectly healthy as a vegan if you planned the diet correctly("Vegetarian and vegan diets can be healthy, but they can lack certain nutrients. You may have to use a little creativity to ensure you get enough protein, calcium, iron, and vitamin B12.") Yeah, that's what I meant, they can't get away from danger, so feeling pain would have no use for them. eh Im unsure of the exact inteligence of chickens but its sure less than a pig or cow so I wouldnt even place it on same level. The info you just gave is redundant. I already explained methionine or serine can become cysteine and cysteine can become glutathione and taurine. Something being non essential just means what you said. Non essential does not inherently mean the body is able to synthesize enough under normal conditions. It's possible as I already said but difficult due to the large amount of serine that would have to be consumed and methionine to have a good level of taurine. Creatine is synthesized via arginine + glycine + methionine. Glycine has no plant sources as far as i know so it has to be synthesized from serine. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Metabolic-pathways-involved-in-the-biosynthesis-of-glycine-from-serine-and-its-use-for_fig3_23959817 To be a vegetarian or vegan you basically do have to be a "health nut" since without adequate knowledge they are more likely to have malnutrition or excess of certainn nutrients. I already know of vitamin c helping absorption of non heme iron. Vegetarian/vegan sources still require a higher intake of iron. Though this isn't too big an issue with the right sources of iron but it depends on the quality of the soil. Soil low in iron will yeild lower content of iron in what is grown in it. Not necisarilly. Take a tortoise for example. It can walk but many species are far too slow to run from danger. Instead the tortoise hides in it's shell. Like the tortoise the oyster can not run so it hides in it's shell. Though this is a simpler reaction with the oyster as it will close it's shell by any touch not necisarilly anything that would be painful if it felt pain. Plants surprisingly have more complex defense systems than a oyster. The tomato plant for example releases different fragrances depending onw what is eating it thata attracts predators of these specific insects. Considering pain is a responce to damage this is technically a pain reaction. |
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Peaceful_Critic said: Never said they were as intelligent just that they also have cognition for pain. Serine is also nonessential("Serine is a non-essential amino acid in humans (synthesized by the body)") and soy protein(something that isn't uncommon in the vegan diet) is quite high in it. Methionine has plant sources such as nuts and seeds. Arginine is produced enough to meet your adult body's needs, plus common plant sources exist(Proof). Glycine, in particular, can be found in Legumes(Proof) This seems like a lot at first glance, but they are mostly are non-essential. Which by the way, does means under normal circumstances they can be enough produced, which is true of semi-essential vitamins as well. On top of that, the sources of them are just normal, vegan protein foods(such as nuts, soy protein, seeds, etc). So they are probably already eating the sources of it for an actual essential vitamin(such as iron). Your average person is overweight and isn't watching what they eat at all, so I bet deficiencies and overdosing on sugar and unhealthy fats are common. A lot of people really only care about health as it concerns with veganism. I can tell this, the second they say: "What about protein? Vegans can't get that." Not that I'm saying you're one of them. This just seemed like a good time to rant. You started off as if you disagreed and I was expecting you to tell me something that'll contradict what I say. However, you agreed("can not run") after I stated yes, that this is what I meant: "Unless by move you mean walk or slither or crawl" I mean plants probably don't feel pain, so it'll be incorrect to say it was a pain response. Damage =/= pain You completely missed the point which I already explained. I intentionally stopped once I hit nutrients with plant sources I was aware of. Point I was making is it's easier to obtain enough of a nutrient directly than through biosythesis of other nutrients because further away up the chain it is the less likely you can have enough. No the average person is not overweight. Think globally not America or the UK... I spend a lot of my time researching the relationship between nutrients and disease. Primarily mental illness. I was explaining how some plants have just as strong as if not a stronger argument for their ability to feel pain as an oyster. You're confused because this is something I have dual views with so I can switch my stance I argue for or against on a whim. I only admit possability an oyster may feel pain but see a better case for some plants. No you're not quite correct. Pain is merely a chemical responce to extrernal stimulus that denotes damage or danger of damage (emotional pain aside) that is unrelated to the damage itself. The mechanism of chemical response to external forces in plants although different from how it is in animals has the same components to it. Did you know that mushrooms are genetically mmore similar to animals than plants? Animals, plants and fungi have common ancestry. So it's reasonable to consider the possability of an alternate pathway for the same design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| Many people don't realise you can have a chicken as a pet, or a cow, lamb or any other farmed animal, it's because of this that they see them as being just food, dogs and cats are seen as just pets, so thus they can't imagine other people eating pets. |
HopesedgeSep 1, 2019 6:02 AM
Hopesedge said: Many people don't realise you can have a chicken as a pet, or a cow, lamb or any other farmed animal, it's because of this that they see them as being just food, dogs and cats are seen as just pets, so thus they can't imagine other people eating pets. Inspired observation of a common oversight. There's a number of people in Iowa and other Midwestern states, particularly in farming communities, with pot-bellied pigs as pets. And if ever questioned, they'll swear up and down they make the perfect pets. They're highly intelligent and versatile. Honestly it just comes across as devaluing other forms of life when people place dogs and cats on a pedestal to the exclusion of all else. A pig is smarter, is certainly sentient and can feel pain, but countless are condemned to die miserably daily and the people who munch bacon and pork chops without a second thought think of the "taboo meat" as some sick evil in their heads. People should choose to eat or refrain from eating whatever they want, but it's the hysterical double standards, cognitive dissonance, and total moral inconsistency and hypocrisy on this issue that pisses me off. It's so obviously not an argument based on facts but cultural inheritance, superstition, and ignorance. |
WatchTillTandavaSep 1, 2019 6:20 AM
| Simply the culture, for example in India you can't touch cows because they are sacred animals, or Muslims don't eat pig meat. There isn't logic, it's culture and habit than change our nutrition |
| There shouldn't be a difference when it comes to animal meat. You're free to have your own restrictions but don't impose them onto others. photophobic said: raises the question as to why people are so against cannibalism - it's just another type of meat, isn't it? Self-preservation of our species. We value the lives of our own species over others. That's common sense, you should know this already. Might be morally wrong to not really give a shit about other species but we humans are selfish, ourselves come first. However maybe it's that nature that has allowed us to survive for so long. Railey2 said: Them getting offended isn't hypocritical, because in their society dogs serve a different role from the role they serve in chinese society. As I explained before, granting special protection to one or two species of animals and pushing them into the pet-role makes a lot of sense and isn't an arbitrary practice itself, even if you randomly select the pet-species from a host of viable candidate-species (such as chicken). What is hypocritical though is them imposing their societal rules onto others while disregarding those of other societies. Hindus don't eat beef, Muslims don't eat pork, the West don't eat dogs etc. Either compromise and follow the eating habits to satisfy all societies (impossible) or shut up and mind your own business. |
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