SakuWolf said: Now that I think about it when you put it that way, I do agree. Also lets not forget the part where Ciel is dressed up as a girl and that loon took him. I won't denied I was kind of creeped out. Yeah Im not going to denie its sexist. But it doesn't mean I hate it now. Ill still be a fangirl and love it. Apologies for truncating the post, I didn't want to make a quote tower. I just wanted to ditto the bolded part. My intention was, of course, not to attack anyone for liking Black Butler or some other anime of choice, just to clarify what was meant by the whole peadophilia thingie. I would expect that all of us have some guilty pleasures (though, do I hate that term so much) and that's perfectly fine. Also, even works that are far from being called guilty pleasures may have questionable elements in them, elements which we may be unlikely to notice the more we love said works. I am of the opinion it can actually be quite interesting to see/read differing views/criticism of the things we love. It really shouldn't diminish our love, but it may just make us more perceiving. Wait, what was I saying? I feel I am going off on a tangent, but yeah, I wanted to say in the most roundabout way possible that I actually agree with what you wrote. EDIT: On Wolf Girl and Black Prince...the moment I glanced the male MC description on Wiki, I knew this thing is something I should stay away lest it starts galling me after the first ep. Wiki said: He may look like a sweet person, but he is actually a sadist. Gradually he starts to care for her and becomes jealous whenever she gets close to other guys. He also develops a protective attitude towards Erika. He is actually more of tsundere hiding under the disguise of a sadist. No, fok you, anime. |
metamorphiusNov 5, 2014 9:53 PM
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| I agree. It's really interesting to read different perspectives on works we love, and of course, a lot of them will have problematic elements since the creators come from our society, but better to be aware. Also, I just watched the first three eps of Yona! Loving it so far! |
| Now if only someone explained it to the gaming community that saying something is problematic doesn't mean you shouldn't like it. |
Earwen said: Now if only someone explained it to the gaming community that saying something is problematic doesn't mean you shouldn't like it. Gamers, like the 'hardcore' gaming community, are a lost cause. Nothing can be explained to them. |
| It's not a matter of how much you like gaming. Just like the anime community there are the people who get somethings and other that don't. With the danger of comming close to the #notallgamers bullshit going on around i do feel that in this case I have to state the obvious. It's not a matter of hobby, being a bigot is a matter of personal responsibility. Also anime and manga always had sexist undertones, overtones w.e all the 90s low budget mass produced ovas are not exactly the pinacle of gender equality. |
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Amberleh said: Earwen said: Now if only someone explained it to the gaming community that saying something is problematic doesn't mean you shouldn't like it. Gamers, like the 'hardcore' gaming community, are a lost cause. Nothing can be explained to them. That's a very broad generalization. And I wouldn't call anyone a lost cause. You have to remember that most (but not all) people who get angry at feminist critique are pretty young. Plenty of them grow out of their persecution complex. Lot's of examples of it in this thread. anyway I think we have a thread on gaming so this is kind of off topic. |
EarwenNov 6, 2014 1:18 PM
iristella said: Also anime and manga always had sexist undertones, overtones w.e all the 90s low budget mass produced ovas are not exactly the pinacle of gender equality. True. Yeah, I think it was just a selective memory. @Earwen: Yeah, it's amazing how people evolve. My own views have changed considerably over time. But as for gaming, at least we players can avoid jerks by finding better communities, but I feel bad for professionals or aspiring professionals in the industry. It is really discouraging knowing you might be in danger if you decide to go into a field that's supposed to be simply artistic, techy, and entertaining. |
engalleons said: Earwen said: I have finished the VN some time ago and I wanted to talk about Steins Gate for a while now. [...] Just noticed this reply. I have some disagreements, so I'll respond more fully in a day or two once I've organized my thoughts on the issues - at this point it has been several months since I've seen it, and obviously I dislike it enough that I try not to think about it often. But for now I just wanted to thank you for putting the effort in - I've shown my post to others in a few different places since I posted it here and haven't gotten any real responses. So replies like that are really helpful in pushing and developing my thinking about issues like this. I'm looking forward to it then! |
| Anyone else actually read Naruto? I'm still catching up, for now I wouldn't put it on the list. I'll report back in a few months :P I don't know anything about the second anime/manga but it does sound bad. |
EarwenNov 7, 2014 6:30 PM
ryoudoru said: tbh all those gender bender yuri anime are really sexist. but especially Kämpfer, it's an ecchi that highly sexualises women and homosexuality, and they have women fall for women just because of their bodies. I agree. But I avoid those anime so I don't know specific examples of it. |
| Kampfer is crap par excellence. The stars had to align in a very specific ominous manner for it to be created. It being ecchi may be the least of its problems. |
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| Wandering Son and Tokyo Godfathers are still the only anime I've seen that depict transgender people in a way that wasn't horribly fetishized. Or just handled stupidly (I read one chapter of Kashimashi and I was just like...yuck, the way this does EVERYTHING is wrong). I've heard that Simoun and Kuragehime are worth watching, but I've yet to get to them. |
| Yeah, I personally think Kuragehime is worth watching. It's pretty charming, though the ending is far from great, due to the manga still being published (I had to pick up the manga after watching the anime). However, the character I presume you're referring to isn't really transgender, but a cross-dresser (or maybe this counts, I am not really sure when it comes to transgender, so excuse me if I make a dumb comment). I liked the fact that his reasons for cross-dressing go deeper than your usual anime hijinks and excuses to include traps. |
metamorphiusNov 8, 2014 4:04 AM
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| Yes he isn't transgender, he just cross-dresses. |
| I'll get back to you when I can. |
| Does anyone mind if I add Blue Submarine No. 6 to the list? Has very rapey scenes for no reason except "fanservice" I guess. Like ew. NSFW-ish:http://i.imgur.com/P8gUtds.png http://i.imgur.com/Duwtquk.png |
| Go for it. That's a bummer though, I remember it airing on AS and always meant to watch it but never got around to it. |
| Added. If it makes you feel better it wasn't all that interesting anyway. |
Earwen said: Does anyone mind if I add Blue Submarine No. 6 to the list? Has very rapey scenes for no reason except "fanservice" I guess. Like ew. NSFW-ish:http://i.imgur.com/P8gUtds.png http://i.imgur.com/Duwtquk.png Go ahead, Earwen. You'll be saving people from a lousy anime to boot. ETA: Saku is right. I think I will add Desire Climax, if no one has objections. |
new_userNov 9, 2014 1:48 PM
| Gantz any work by Jiro Matsumoto |
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| Agreed with Gantz. I don't know the other guy though. Anyone? |
| Sexism aside, I didn't care much for Blue Submarine. The badly-aged CGI is the least of its problems, I think. Based off a manga written in the 60s, the degree to which it bungles the understanding of the Earth's magnetic field is laughable. Indeed, if only our resident evil "genius" knew that stripping it off would also cause the oceans to be stripped off, which is basically what happened to Mars. Unfortunately, far too much of the drama is rooted in this sort of pseudoscience. I liked the main character fine, while realizing he's another iteration of the "grim, misunderstood warrior" trope, but the main female character, Kino, just comes across as a nasty, short-sighted whiner, and basically everybody else gets too little screentime to make an impact. It was an ambitious series, I recognize, but I thought it was a mess. I don't think you're missing anything by skipping on it. And yeah, I can't believe somebody didn't think of Gantz earlier. Definitely in favor of that POS landing on the list. |
Earwen said: He's basically rape and violence. A very good writer and artist too, but he doesn't portray women in a very good light, he doesn't portray anyone in a good light for that matter.Agreed with Gantz. I don't know the other guy though. Anyone? If you want to see what I'm talking about read the first chap of Freesia |
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| Since somebody mentioned Naruto, I'll rant about the ending. Warning spoilers for the ending, also I'm very anti-sasusaku. As you can probably tell if you read the spoilers, I think it's pretty anti-feminist. Okay, these are a fraction of my thoughts, if somebody badly wants to rant about me with Naruto, we should make a separate thread, because let's face this, we could rant about it for years. Or just private message me. |
| Hello, everyone :) I'd add Bakuman and Katekyo Hitman Reborn to the list. Sexism in Bakuman was very blatant and aggressive even. I somehow made it through the show, but at the cost of getting perpetually angry every episode. The girls in this show were treated so horribly I could barely believe the good rating it has. In KHR, the only one of Tsuna's guardians, who was unable to do anything on her own, was of course the only girl among them, Chrome. Tsuna's female classmates didn't serve any other purpose than being boys' love interest or them having main protagonists as their interest, not to mention they spent every other episode cooking for the boys. There were few strong-ish females (such as Lal Milch) but it certainly didn't outweigh the rest. |
daarkraiNov 11, 2014 10:11 AM
| hi people can i add Shigurui, i haven't seen it but just reading the bibliography explains it and also my friend said its very sexist towards women |
| What? Why? I watch more seinen than shoujo or josei. I don't think we should exclude anime from the list just because "women are unlikely to watch it". That said I'm not adding Shigurui until someone who actually watched the show says something about it. |
| Oh yeah you can add it. My opinions on most everything have changed since I first started this club, ahaha. |
| I agree about Bakuman being sexist. Here are some articles I found: http://www.mangatherapy.com/post/1543578362/sexism-in-japan-bakuman https://watashiwabucho.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/why-i-wont-be-watching-the-third-series-of-bakuman/#more-101 http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/09/i-hate-you-because-i-love-you-shonen-jump-boys-club-edition/ http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1893973.html ---- I'd also like to suggest the manga: Please Save My Earth because the girl is in love with her rapist. There's also implied pedophilia between a young elementary boy and a teenage girl (I think an 8 yr age difference or something) |
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| I added Bakuman (because I couldn't not, after seeing that panel, Daisy) and Shigurui (because yeah, the women are mostly victims or damsels). I think Amberleh had the right idea though. We probably should limit the list in some way... Stick to popular titles? |
| Since Bakuman was already added, this comment is superfluous, but I just wanted to say I agree. I watched the anime in its entirety and sexism, among many other things, always bugged me. The "men have dreams that a woman wouldn't understand" thing appeared very early in the anime and not just on a single occasion, but I brushed it off and decided to continue it. That was an exceptionally stupid idea on my end as I ended up wasting time on 75 (in letters: seventy fucking five) episodes of said anime. I don't know what compulsion made me do it, but I guess I can try to pretend it was worth it because of the manga industry aspect and stuff I learnt about it. Yeah, that should work. P.S. Poor Iwase, Bakuman never let her off the hook. |
metamorphiusNov 12, 2014 9:44 PM
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| I think that Shigurui is a well-done series. I remembered thinking that the direction of the fight scenes was excellent, which, given that the adaptation was directed by the same man who made Texhnolze, does not surprise me; the tension is palpable and the camera angles do a great job of highlighting that. I remember thinking that it was an interesting take on samurai politics also, and one of the few samurai dramas I've seen that didn't romanticize the subject at all. It's also full of sexual abuse, and the women aren't much more than objects to be thrown around by the male characters. I'm not sure in what part it's due to the habitual abuse of women in the body of seinen manga, and in what part it's a reflection of the history, but neither of those justifies the sexism nor means that it isn't worth a warning. That show, Berserk, and Code Geass are probably the only shows on this list that I will admit to liking, to be honest (though there are plenty I haven't seen). I will chime in my two cents about what we should and shouldn't include. I don't think it's fair to not include titles that aren't at all targeted at women, since I think the gender divide between readership/viewership isn't especially great these days (a simplification, but I think it works). It's more true in Japan now, and it's especially true in the US. As for obscurity, I know that I often stumble upon lesser-known titles and watch them out of curiosity. I'm certain that there are other people who do that, also, and on the off chance one of us has seen something obscure that's also sexist, I imagine that those people, if they're worried about that, would appreciate our warning. Sometimes, one thing that frustrates me is a lack of dialogue about a given show; when I write reviews for obscure anime, one of my motivations is to put SOMETHING out there about them on the internet (that people can read and agree with, disagree with, respond to, etc). That sounds horribly pretentious.... |
| So bakuman, aside from being boring as shit is sexist? |
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| If we are going to limit the list I suggest we don't include pure fanservice/harem shows unless they are rated highly. Say, in the top 1000. |
Earwen said: If we are going to limit the list I suggest we don't include pure fanservice/harem shows unless they are rated highly. Say, in the top 1000. then To Love Ru Darkness must count Anime Score: 7.99 (scored by 33312 users) Ranked: #504 Popularity: #461 Members: 60,594 Favorites: 745 Manga Score: 8.19 (scored by 7722 users) Ranked: #547 Popularity: #159 Members: 15,894 Favorites: 1,225 btw: i rated it 10/10 |
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| Welp. Not sure what to do with that one. I mean I'm pretty sure most everyone knows what they're getting into when watching To Love Ru Darkness. Unless it's sexists beyond just fanservice/ecchi , I think we can leave it off the list. |
SarcotarascusN said: I think that Shigurui is a well-done series. I remembered thinking that the direction of the fight scenes was excellent, which, given that the adaptation was directed by the same man who made Texhnolze, does not surprise me; the tension is palpable and the camera angles do a great job of highlighting that. I remember thinking that it was an interesting take on samurai politics also, and one of the few samurai dramas I've seen that didn't romanticize the subject at all. It's also full of sexual abuse, and the women aren't much more than objects to be thrown around by the male characters. I'm not sure in what part it's due to the habitual abuse of women in the body of seinen manga, and in what part it's a reflection of the history, but neither of those justifies the sexism nor means that it isn't worth a warning. I liked Shigurui too. It seems gratuitous rather than historically accurate when the violence is sexual, unusual, and inflicted on multiple characters in the same show. (NSFW: I really doubt women were tied up in this way. It suggests fetish.) Although I agree a lot of the dynamics are true to life, e.g. the samurai overlooking the leader's mistreatment of his daughter. You raise a good point about the list. Maybe we can still discuss the obscure stuff but limit the list itself so it doesn't get unwieldy. Then again, there's always Ctrl+F, lol. What do you think, Amberleh? I was also thinking that we could have a legend and some symbols indicating what it is about each show/manga that's objectionable. |
| Yikes, forgot about that scene. Definitely fetishism.... |
| In my opinion I always see fanservice in anime as anti-feminist ... but the main reason is because the characters are almost always under 18 years old and it really creeps me out. |
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