| Ironically Gone Home is the only game I would call realistic. Reminder that we have a video game thread for those who want to continue this discussion. |
| Weren't you the one who raised the topic? XD Hm, the original link isn't working for me, eggfish. |
| I was. But I don't want this to be a huge derail, hence the link. |
new_user said: Hm, the original link isn't working for me, eggfish. Looks like the tumblr got deleted. edit: looks like it was moved isitconsensual.tumblr.com/ |
| Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but does anyone have an opinion on Kill la Kill? It looks interesting, but I know there's tons of fanservice. How bad is it? How are the female characters? Is any of the fanservice sexually-assult-y or just big boobs-y? |
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Bolingbroke said: Just created an account to jump in here, some cool discussions going on! I'm curious as to why Marmalade Boy (anime) was put on here. I would say the female leads are pretty well developed. Is it because of the relationship between Meiko and Nomura? Or is it because Miki is pretty melodramatic? And if we're including trans-unfriendly anime on the list, then possible Ranma 1/2 and Inuyasha? All the transgender characters in those stories are called and usually depicted as perverts and/or violently insane (despite how much I love Jakotsu, it's problematic). Marmalade Boy is on the list because of hebephilia. The relationship between the best friend and her teacher was glorified far too much and REALLLY made me mad. |
| I really like how there are more specific markings to the list by the OP. Would you consider adding another marking for anime that has male-gaze fanservice(panty shots, boob/hip closeups, etc)? That is something that always bothers me in any anime. I'm also curious, why is Shota in one of the markings? I guess if it's shota traps, I can understand... One anime I've liked in the past that I have been questioning is Katekyo Hitman Reborn... It's not particularly misogynist in a hostile way per se, but you get a feeling that all the females in the show are essentially weakened to a point they can never be on par to the males, even the ones who do fight seem handicapped or always fail(Chrome and Lal). It also kind of gives a message that females must support the males by being housewives and cheerleaders(Kyoko and Haru). And, as much as I love Hetalia and the guys in it, I felt like there aren't really many genuinely admirable strong females. There are some, but moreso they're reliant on the males(Liechtenstein relies on Switzerland, Ukraine and Belarus rely on Russia, Seychelles relies on France, etc). Sure it's true in real life, but he could have just gender-swapped them and made some of the females be the ones being relied on instead... Free! is another anime I love but that also lacks in feminism. The females are all support, even though they could have at least made a female who was a pro swimmer like them or something. I'm not too irked about it though, since it's essentially a sports anime(I don't watch any other sports anime, so maybe it's normal), and they didn't have anything hostile/demeaning against the girls. I can really appreciate an anime that can include girls who DON'T have any romantic relations or act as male-gaze fanservice/male hero's reward. So, maybe in a way it is kind of feminist? More-so just "made for girls". Inu x Boku SS is something that is a bit borderline for me, because it's one of those romance anime that looks like a mix of both Seinen and Shoujo... It has pretty bishounen males and moe loli-looking girls. Both fight, but I can't really decide if it's more offensive or empowering. It may be that I just hate lolicon, and the girls just look way too young along-side the tall adult-looking men. Ririchiyo looks 10-14 next to Soushi who looks 20-something. Maybe it's just the art style? PS: Is Inuyasha considered a shoujo? I never considered it such when I was watching it, but then I realize it has a very shoujo vibe to it along side the action/adventure. Maybe it's a mix. |
PikangieApr 21, 2015 5:20 AM
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| I don't think purely having fanservice is enough to say a show is sexist. 90% of anime have some form of it. And most of the show you listed are kind of a grey area imo, like I wouldn't put them in either list. If you look really hard you can find problematic stuff in any anime. I think the list should be just the worst offenders. Inuyasha is shounen. But it's one of the series that is super popular with teenage girls despite that. And it's written by a woman. |
| Good points, Pikangie. I think someone else mentioned Katekyo Hitman before... I see the older guy-younger girl casting in anime from time to time. It seems like it's a holdover from the idea that where men and women are present, a male must be the leader, "guide" women, etc. Naturally, puberty -specifically different rates of growth- thwart this, so some writers try to stick to the paradigm by writing the male lead older. But not all of them, thankfully. I see quite a few school shows where the leads are the same age. |
Pikangie said: PS: Is Inuyasha considered a shoujo? I never considered it such when I was watching it, but then I realize it has a very shoujo vibe to it along side the action/adventure. Maybe it's a mix. It serialized in a magazine with a young male demographic (Weekly Shounen Sunday), but that may reflect that fact that practically all of Takahashi's series have serialized in male-targeted magazines more than the actual inclinations of the series. I was lucky enough to take a class on manga in college, and the teacher's opinion was that with a few exceptions, it's difficult to have your manga be accepted in magazines targeting the other gender demographic once you've been serialized in one (she cited CLAMP as one of the few exceptions to this). I remember reading that Takahashi had said that she'd hoped Ranma would appeal to both boys and girls, and also that it ultimately had a stronger following among female readers. I'm under the impression that her series are intended to have a fair bit of crossover appeal. I don't have any more comments beyond that, since I've never actually watched any of Inuyasha, but I hope that helps. And it's written by a woman. There are a few decidedly shounen series written by women. The classic example is FMA (and the same author's Silver Spoon), but I can also think of Magi (as much as I dislike the anime version), and Toward the Terra. Though I can't really think of any shoujo series penned by men, aside from some early series (Osamu Tezuka drew manga targeting both demographics at various points). |
lukanicolettaApr 21, 2015 4:47 PM
| Why are you asking why shouta is in the rankings? Shoutacon and Lolicon are one in the same. Both are equally bad. A child is a child regardless of gender and if you think otherwise I suggest you rethink your values. See, this is something I see a lot that makes me mad. Female fans complain about fanservice, talk about how awful lolicon is, but then apparently shows like Black Butler and other even more disturbing series featuring shoutacon are still 'cute'. Shoutacon and Lolicon are equally bad. They go hand in hand. Young boys can be victimized, groomed, manipulated, and abused JUST AS MUCH as young girls can. |
AmberlehApr 21, 2015 8:27 PM
| I wish people didn't treat males different then females. |
| added the fourth most popular anime onto this site |
Pikangie said: One anime I've liked in the past that I have been questioning is Katekyo Hitman Reborn... It's not particularly misogynist in a hostile way per se, but you get a feeling that all the females in the show are essentially weakened to a point they can never be on par to the males, even the ones who do fight seem handicapped or always fail(Chrome and Lal). It also kind of gives a message that females must support the males by being housewives and cheerleaders(Kyoko and Haru). I support this, specially the last bit. It's one of the reasons why I stopped reading Hitman. |
| If it has solution, don't bother; and if it hasn't, why bothering? Do you like manga? http://gunjoteam.com |
| Sounds a bit like Naruto actually. Maybe it's a common thing for shounen? |
Earwen said: Sounds a bit like Naruto actually. Maybe it's a common thing for shounen? Meh, in Naruto from time to time you get cool female characters, like Temari or Kaguya-Hime (was it written like that?) or they evolve and are at least more useful than at first, like Sakura and Hinata. But yes, sadly is a common thing, maybe it's because Japanese society is very traditional and hostile towards women. On the other side, when you find exceptions it makes them shine much more. |
| If it has solution, don't bother; and if it hasn't, why bothering? Do you like manga? http://gunjoteam.com |
| Sakura was great in the first arc in Shippuuden though. Especially her and the old lady vs. Sasori. Then it went downhill fast. |
| I think the ratio is much worse in sports series, where the only girl is usually the manager. Well, I guess it's hard to do it differently when sports are usually gender-divided. Maybe except for martial arts clubs. |
| How you could handle that in sport series. One series I remember was about a football (soccer) team. The girl was once again the manager but she was a good player of her own. She even joined the team for a match I think. e: It's called Whistle! if you are curious |
Steppenfuchs said: I think the ratio is much worse in sports series, where the only girl is usually the manager. Well, I guess it's hard to do it differently when sports are usually gender-divided. Maybe except for martial arts clubs. Yep, martial arts are usually the exception. All-Rounder Meguru has some really cool female characters |
| If it has solution, don't bother; and if it hasn't, why bothering? Do you like manga? http://gunjoteam.com |
| I can think of some girl-centered sports anime, like Taishou Baseball Girls and Aim for the Ace...and I've heard people make a case for Chihayafuru being structured like a sports series, though I haven't yet seen it. The only sports anime I've actually seen all of is Ping Pong: The Animation, and in that series, the only two female characters were the (awesome) elderly proprietor of a ping-pong parlor (who used to be pro herself), and the sorta-love interest of one of the characters. Still a series I love. |
| Well, as far as most people are concerned, while shotacon may not fall under the primary motivation of feminism, it's still within the same type of offense (sexualization or hypervictimization of an already misrepresented and exploited group), and many people who'll react strongly against tropes/issues in the list will also react strongly against shotacon, so there really is no downside to including it. It's nice to have it cataloged, as well. |
| I'm a bit appalled that you all are saying shotacon isn't a feminist issue. It is. Shoutacon and lolicon are the same thing, who cares if it's a young boy as opposed to a young girl. And engalleons, look at pikangie's favorites. Black butler is there. She doesn't want shotacon on here because she likes it. I hate that double standard. A child is a child gender doesn't matter what matters is IT'S A CHILD. I'm very sorry for the outburst, but this really, REALLY upsets me. I am someone who both sympathizes with pedophiles because they are born that way (I do not sympathize with those who act on it however), but is disgusted by the way anime has made pedophilia mainstream in a way. And engalleons and 103rdwhatever, I know you're both just trying to come up with a logical explanation and I appreciate that, but I think this is a case where someone doesn't like it being on the list because she enjoys it. Which is disgusting I'm sorry I'm very accepting but if you like lolicon or shotacon you need professional help. Again, I am VERY passionate about this subject. Sorry. |
| Amberleh, you paint Kuroshitsuji as if sexualising a young boy (and pairing him with a demon) was the center of the story, it's not like that. It's only an interpretation of a part of the fandom, personally I think it's disgusting and I perceive relationship between Sebatian and Ciel differently. Please don't suggest that if someone likes Kuroshitsuji he or she needs professional help. |
| Obviously, I cannot confirm this because I cannot read moonrounes and thus cannot look for info in Japanese, but I've been told on at least three occasions by Kuroshitsuji fans that Yana Toboso, the mangaka, originally intended for Kuroshitsuji to be a yaoi story of Sebastian and Ciel. One of the people who told me this was a Kuroshitsuji fangirl who said she had read that piece of information on Yana's personal blog, Devil's 6th Day. She went on to say that the mangaka eventually changed the original idea because, obviously, one couldn't possibly print that kind of stuff in a shounen magazine. This could very well be some story that the fans conjured out of thin air and it then spread (I'd be very much interested in seeing some trustworthy source either debunking or confirming this, so if anyone knows, do let me know). However, the fact that the mangaka used to write yaoi manga and some Kuroshitsuji official art I've seen (heck, the corset scene shit was in both the manga and the anime) just makes me believe that yaoi undertones are not entirely fans' delusions. I have actually been reading the manga for years and I used to like it because I'm a total sucker for Victorian settings and mysteries (I'll have you know I have the awesome, Umineko-themed, max mystery achievement on MALgraph). Well, I still more or less like it but I feel that it's not really progressing (Harry Potter school arc contributed like 1.5% to the plot progression). I really want this manga to stay true to what I see as its roots, a Faustian story, but I cannot turn a blind eye to the little tidbits here and there that make all shotacon claims plausible. Of course, fans can and do make a mountain out of a molehill, but I have to say that in this case I see the theory, if not as the author's intent, then at least her acceptance of the perceived fanbdom's interpretation. As they would say, if it sells, roll with it or something...oh, why cannot they already just make a William and Grell spinoff where they'd go around collecting souls and acting like a tsukkomi and boke and forget fucking Ciel? |
metamorphiusApr 28, 2015 5:09 AM
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| For the whole "Is shotacon, and its prevalence a feminist issue?" debate: It is. Directly. (I've given it a second thought.) Its popularity and apologetics go hand-in-hand with lolicon, which is definitely a feminist issue. More importantly, it seems to usually exploit gender roles. The sexualized portrayal of shotacon, especially in yaoi or along the lines of Kuroshitsuji (with overtones but no explicity, as far as the others have said), seems to hinge on their youth and weakness. Which, if my knowledge serves, is often directly compared to femininity in the works. (see: that one point in Kuroshitsuji where Ciel cross-dresses to go under cover, also I'm pretty sure Boku No Pico features it... I really don't want to research this...) Of course, I think that shotacon, like any form of fetish trope, could hypothetically be utilized in a way that isn't intrinsically offensive and harmful to feminism and the human race, but most people who write it probably wouldn't be considering those ramifications. And yeah, pedophilia is way too common in the anime community. It just shouldn't be making this kind of money, even if it was better handled. |
| I didn't know either, engalleons. I thought she was questioning the relevance of shotacon/lolicon to a list of sexist anime. This has always puzzled me because I suggested racism as another criteria, and that was dismissed even though sexism and racism are quite frequently linked and more directly. Maybe not in anime though. Shrug. |
| Thanks Tensaiga and cipheron. I'll probably check it out then. Fanservice bothers me less if they go both ways, and even less so if the girls are characters, not just fanservice tools. :) |
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| Hmm... Hey (I don't think I ever posted here, so hi!) about Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun, I have a problem with it being here. I mean, I understant the thing with the rape joke but I dont't think that is enough to make it sexist. (First we would have to argue within the fact that "shall not joke about rape" thing) Because, while I see that it could offend some, by calling it sexist you diminish the fact the main character is a really strong woman, that is the opposite of your average shoujo MC (and also her constantly mentined mother as her role model for being independent). I really don't think it should be on this list. Also, have someone watched/readed Gakuen Alice? I get pretty mixed feelings about it, as it portays strong female characters (such as Hotaru and Mikan's mother) but some of them NEED protection, and Natsume's constant abuse over Mikan. |
Kiarika said: Hmm... Hey (I don't think I ever posted here, so hi!) about Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun, I have a problem with it being here. I mean, I understant the thing with the rape joke but I dont't think that is enough to make it sexist. (First we would have to argue within the fact that "shall not joke about rape" thing) Because, while I see that it could offend some, by calling it sexist you diminish the fact the main character is a really strong woman, that is the opposite of your average shoujo MC (and also her constantly mentined mother as her role model for being independent). I really don't think it should be on this list. Also, have someone watched/readed Gakuen Alice? I get pretty mixed feelings about it, as it portays strong female characters (such as Hotaru and Mikan's mother) but some of them NEED protection, and Natsume's constant abuse over Mikan. I read Gakuen Alice and you have a point. Mikan developes into a strong character and saves Natsume from time to time, but she also needs to be salved many other times. There are many other strong female characters (like Mikan's mother) but it's like them all have this other really vulnerable side, same as Mikan. I have mixed feelings. |
| If it has solution, don't bother; and if it hasn't, why bothering? Do you like manga? http://gunjoteam.com |
Nidhoeggr said: I don't think. Berserk is sexist per se. Sure, the rape scenes are common but let's not forget that this applies to males as well and is in many instances not just for shock value/gore. Caska is an obvious example, but we have several characters like Luca (the prostitute in the Conviction arc), Charlotte, Farnese, the children in the Lost Children arc and Sonia who are imho good examples of various female characters and tropes in such a setting. I won't deny a certain moe factor in regards to Schierke, Isma and a few others, though. Still, while it's certainly not a series that wins the "feminist of the year" award, it is not strongly sexist in its approach either. Actually, I'd vote for Luca as a character belonging on the relations list for this club as I liked her strong and independent attitude during the events that unfolded. Stuff like this happened in that era it's inspired from anyway. |
| added the fourth most popular anime onto this site |
| So I hate to suggest this because it's one of my favorite series, but... I think we need to add One Piece. It's sexism is... particularly bad, and it's almost heavy-handed about it. Most recently, the 'development' with Rebecca is just... SO offensive and ridiculous. Not to mention the fight with Franky, Senior Pink and the Factory Manager. She's big and powerful and as soon as Franky kisses her she turns into a blushy fangirl, and he outright SAYS he only did it to shut her up and she just sparkles and says how manly he is. I'd like to keep Vivi on our relations, but she is literally the best written female in the show. Robin and Nami are alright, but the way Oda treats every single other woman is honestly kind of repulsive. Again, I really hesitate to do this because I LOVE One Piece, but it's just SO sexist that I can't ignore it anymore. |
| Oh, I'm totally for adding One Piece. The scenes you mentioned, the fact that most of the female characters after timeskip have the same body type, and especially the lack of development of Tashigi's character were disappointing for me (she's my favourite and I think she had plenty of potential). Also, in the current arc women have barely fought, Robin only does some protecting and we have a princess healing with the power of tears. SERIOUSLY. Relevant post, mainly about Sanji, Zoro and Tashigi: http://askzotash.tumblr.com/post/30943237081/beware-giant-sexism-in-one-piece-rant-behind Post about female characters designs: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40831&page=41&p=3166273&viewfull=1#post3166273 |
| Honestly, I could forgive the character designs if the women were decently written- Or even just normally written- But the way oda writes women is so sexist that is actually seems intentional. As I said before, Vivi is the ONLY ONE I can think of that was actually empowering, and thinking about it this makes sense. I feel like One Piece got MORE sexist as it went along, and Vivi was in the very early part of it. She was actually a well written character- She infiltrated an organization that was hurting her kingdom and got very high in their ranks. She also fought alongside the crew and was accepted as a member, she was never talked down to for being a woman. Luffy and her even exchanged punches- Luffy saw her as enough of an equal that he threw a punch at her (he was trying to get her to be her strong self again because she had a breakdown). And this worked. She became strong again, and when she had to make the choice between going and having fun and being a pirate with her new best friends, she overcame these desires for the sake of her country, to continue to protect it and train to be the next heir to Alabasta. Vivi is genuinely awesome, so it really baffles me how Oda can treat so many other females with such disdain in his series. And, as the post you linked points out, Zoro's backstory actually has a really good empowering message. But then he goes and later refuses to fight girls seriously and treat them as lesser beings. So, admittedly, when I initially added One Piece females to the relations, I was not caught up. I was still in the areas where the women were pretty awesome. I don't know what happened to Oda in these past almost 20 years to make him so unbelievable and intentionally sexist, but it's seriously upsetting because the series started with so much promise, and had a few good messages and female development at the start. Although, with all that said, Dadan is still super awesome and she was a more recent female, so there's that. Bonny also seems cool though I don't know enough about her yet to say anything difinitive. But yeah, I think we should go ahead and add it. |
| Firstly, hi to all from the recently joined :) It was nice to find this club. It's hard to find anyone who has the same "taste" in anime, so to speak, so I'm very happy. Finally I can ask others what they think of some things I've thought of for years. For example, I want to ask people's opinions on Byousoku 5 Centimeter. It's very famous and people say it's a masterpiece. I watched it long ago, and while some elements of those stories were very good, I found some that were offensive stereotypes, too. E.g. there was a girl there who was in love with a boy who was just too smart for her, having dreams that she couldn't fathom, and she couldn't even hope to bridge that gap. It sounds trifle as I relay it, but in the anime it was portrayed like a stereotypical thinking about girls as being too stupid to have complicated dreams like boys do. It wasn't just that the guy was smart, it was how normal it was supposed to be for a girl to be incapable of understanding that boy's mind and dreams at all. Like, she was a down-to-earth girl and capable only of mundane desires, and he, as a boy, was destined for something else. I never watched anything by this famous Sinkai guy after that movie. The very same stereotype I found in Mayazaki's adaptation of Howl's Moving Castle, even though I usually love his works. It pictured a woman who clearly couldn't bridge a gap, so to speak, when Howl was doing some important work flying in the sky and she didn't even dare ask what it was about. It gave me the same feeling of you women are too mundanely-oriented, leave all great things to men. Usually I can't voice these thoughts, because I'm sure people will not understand why I feel that way. Also I see that people here praise Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. I think it has the very same issue at the ending. The main hero just leaves his girlfriend for no sane reason, just to travel the world. As if she's too mundane-minded to ever want to travel and broad her horizons along with him and would never understand why he needs that. Heck, she doesn't even get asked, as if it's obvious she's not interested. So he travels and she patiently waits at home, because that's the only thing a woman can be interested in, I guess. In being at home. Then he comes back and she receives him back, as if he didn't abandon her for years, and they have kids. Ugh. Actually, about this ending I talked with a male friend of mine, and he agreed that it seemed wrong. |
a-naoto-fanMay 29, 2015 4:05 AM
| I think people tend to overlook that in FMAB because of the other women in the story, such as Riza, teacher lady, or the other Armstrong (look, I haven't finished the series yet and I haven't read/watched FMA in ages. It has elements which aren't perfect, but it tends to make up for it in the eyes of the beholder. (Again, I cannot speak personally, as I haven't finished it...) |
| Welcome, Ginevra! Ginevra said: Yes, of course women aren't interested in exciting things. Women are only interested in diapers, lol. Men are adventurers. /s Distasteful trope.As if she's too mundane-minded to ever want to travel and broad her horizons along with him and would never understand why he needs that. Heck, she doesn't even get asked, as if it's obvious she's not interested. I'm curious about what you said about 5cm and Howl since they're lauded so much. I haven't seen them yet. Not that the dreamer partnering with the person forever playing catch-up isn't real, but in anime, it's always the male partner who's the dreamer. Probably reflects on the abysmal penetration of women into the Japanese workplace. It probably is men following their career dreams and women at home there. |
| I can see why you think that about Howl, but the thing is that Sophie was like that only in the beginning of the movie- And the further along the movie got, the more courageous and brave Sophie became. The movie was about her overcoming her own self-loathing and the idea that she could only have mundane desires. As for FMA:B- Here's my thought on that. If a majority of the women in the show did the same thing Winry did, it would be an issues. HOWEVER, only two women I can think of- Ed and Al's mom and Winry- did that. And some women truly are like that. The other women in the show however are very different, such as their teacher, the Armstrong sister (I love her), Riza, etc. |
| About FMA:B and Winry. Winry didn't stay at home the whole time. She left her home to persue her dreams of becomming an automail mechanic (I don't remember the name of the city, but it was the automail central of the world). The anime/manga never says she doesn't go back or that she isn't continuing her work in her hometown, which was her expressed desire from the very beginning of the series. Also, what is the matter with being a stay at home wife and doing simple things? If it's not portrayed as something lesser or the only option women have in a story, I have absolutely no problem with it. It's actually really sad to see women that think wanting a traditional female's lifestyle as bad because they want kids instead of a career. Winry wants both and got both. Sophie from Howl's Moving Castle goes from insecure to more confident. She also manages to be useful without having any powers and using traditional feminine strengths. I haven't seen the other one. Though, I get what you mean about the trend. We definitly need more female characters with large aspirations and goals and that are the most powerful or the chosen one and not supporting roles (even if they are totally awesome in that role). So, I totally get your fustration there. |
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| I see what you're all saying about FMA:B having great women. It's definitely true. Although I really didn't' like Lust being a woman, lol. It's just like in Bioware games the Desire Demon was always a woman. I can say that for me that's impossible, as I'm no lesbian, and it's jarring when women are portrayed as desirable by default. I just happen to desire men, you know... PaladinAlchemist said: Winry didn't stay at home the whole time. She left her home to persue her dreams of becomming an automail mechanic (I don't remember the name of the city, but it was the automail central of the world). Is it manga? I really don't remember that in anime. But I watched it long ago. Right now all I remember is how shocked I was at the ending and why. Also, what is the matter with being a stay at home wife and doing simple things? If it's not portrayed as something lesser or the only option women have in a story, I have absolutely no problem with it. It's actually really sad to see women that think wanting a traditional female's lifestyle as bad because they want kids instead of a career. Winry wants both and got both. There's nothing wrong with it, of course. I myself am very timid and passive, in other worlds, like "helpless heroines" in many anime. My only asset is that I have an analytist type of brain. So I understand that demanding from all women to be energetic and confident is unfair. All kinds of women are ok. It's just that I really didn't see and don't remember that Winry pursued her own career somewhere meanwhile, that she had her own reasons to not travel and see the world, so for me those ending scenes looked bad, like outright dismissal of women being interested in anything not mundane. Who wouldn't want to go see the world and how others live, though? If they had a chance, I'm sure everyone would. Sophie from Howl's Moving Castle goes from insecure to more confident. She also manages to be useful without having any powers and using traditional feminine strengths. It's just the contrast. She did become strong without any powers, and yet Howl was portrayed as someone with super powers and job that Sophie didn't even dare to ask about. Perhaps it irked me so much because I read the book long time before and can say that Howl's job that required some superpowers was a pure fantasy. There was never any job he did that would be so far above Sophie's level. That's why I wonder why Miyazaki felt a need to distort the original in such a manner :( He's usually so good about portraying women. |
I have huge issues with Lust being the only traditionally female looking homunculus. At least Envy isn't supposed to have a gender at all, so that makes things a bit better. It's the one place I think the 03 version actually did better than the 09 version with female characters because Sloth is a girl too in 03. It's in the anime and the manga. It's called Rush Valley. Winry works there to inprove her automail skills. It's the place where we meet Paninya, the thief girl with the automail leg, and where Winry helps deliver the baby.Ed and Al go to do their own thing and Winry chooses to stay instead of follow them because she's persuing her goals while they persue theirs. My personal belief for why Winry didn't go is because she was running a business. Ed works for the military, so it's okay if he travels. But Winry runs an automail shop so she can't just up and leave when she feels like it. I personally would love to travel too, but I'm sure there's some people, like my brother, who would hate it. I read the book a long time ago and I remember it being really different, but I don't remember Howl being less powerful. I don't know if the issue is so much Winry and Shopie as characters as that female characters almost never get to be the most powerful or chosen one or even the main character in something other than a romance. And when they are, you get characters like the Major from Ghost in the Shell, who is cool and all, but she acts so much like a guy I can't relate to her on any level. All I want in life is a gemale character who's not just a dude with boobs or some plucky girl who never lets life get to her be a main character who's the chosen one. But it seems like that's too much to ask for. |
PaladinAlchemistMay 30, 2015 7:57 AM
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engalleons said: Plus I found the only other two Shinkai films I've seen (Garden of Words and The Place Promised In Our Early Days) pretty horrific overall, especially in their depictions of their female characters. So ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if most or all of his works belong on this list. Oh so that's how it is. And everyone admires Shinkai so much :( It's hard to explain to people that the messages he sends are wrong enough that I can't consider him a genius. Art sends messages by touching our emotion directly. PaladinAlchemist said: I have huge issues with Lust being the only traditionally female looking homunculus. At least Envy isn't supposed to have a gender at all, so that makes things a bit better. It's the one place I think the 03 version actually did better than the 09 version with female characters because Sloth is a girl too in 03. Could you please clarify what you mean? What is 03 version and 09 version? I was not aware than Envy is genderless... That explains a lot, though. :) I don't know if the issue is so much Winry and Shopie as characters as that female characters almost never get to be the most powerful or chosen one or even the main character in something other than a romance. I guess it all comes down to 1) habit and wanting to self-insert; and 2) thinking that female protag won't be commercially successful, because boys won't watch. And when they are, you get characters like the Major from Ghost in the Shell, who is cool and all, but she acts so much like a guy I can't relate to her on any level. How is that anime like from a feminist perspective? I admit I never watched it, her first appearance scared me away. She seemed too feminine for the robot or whatever she was supposed to be, as if I was supposed to be attracted to her body. All I want in life is a gemale character who's not just a dude with boobs or some plucky girl who never lets life get to her be a main character who's the chosen one. But it seems like that's too much to ask for. Blood+ is perfect for you then. She starts out rather scared and weak, but changes quickly. Then you can try Slayers, although the art is old and might hurt your eyes. It's kind of a shame that there is an ocean of choice for boys and men when it comes to any genre. Even romance is dominated by them, if we count endless harems as romance, and why wouldn't we. It's romance, just not very romantic, with ecchi and stuff. |
PaladinAlchemist said: And when they are, you get characters like the Major from Ghost in the Shell, who is cool and all, but she acts so much like a guy I can't relate to her on any level. What do you mean? I think she's relatable (as much as you can relate to soldier androids). |
Steppenfuchs said: PaladinAlchemist said: And when they are, you get characters like the Major from Ghost in the Shell, who is cool and all, but she acts so much like a guy I can't relate to her on any level. What do you mean? I think she's relatable (as much as you can relate to soldier androids). Well, she's a fine character as a character, but I can't relate to her. It only gets problematic because she's the only female character of importance in the show and she acts like a dude. Even another character asks why she doesn't just get a male body because she acts exactly like a male. As a female who thinks like a standard female, I just don't relate to her much. I've only seen Stand Alone Complex though. |
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