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| Damn Kaname was the MVP of this episode. He's propelling the romantic progression of this show. The talk with Chisaki and telling Sayu that he'll take her feelings into consideration. Sayu also saved Kaname from his loneliness and misery, which was very sweet. The feels when he started to break down........ Chisaki needs to stop guilt tripping and give in to her feelings for Tsumugu, but I'm sure she'll be fine now. Now let's see how the Hikari, Manaka, Miuna triangle resolves! |
| Combating against hoax MAL accounts and intentional down voting of objectively great anime. Pls join |
L-Ryoshi said: Thess said: @L-Ryoshi: Again with the "sibling" chemistry when Kaname himself pointed out he was the one who Chisaki regarded as a sibling. Having the chemistry of a traditional married couple is different from a pair of siblings (Kaname and Chisaki are now an offiical and canonical example of how non related siblings actually behave for their society standard ;) ). Also it's difficult an unfair to compare a highly traumatized young woman like Chisaki and a person who lost her ability to love like Manaka with a girl who barely suffered any trauma outside a convenient one for her to get a shot with her crush like Sayu. Even if I am a Kaname x Sayu shipper, you can't just compare the hurdles and the eventual payoff of the main set up relationships: Manaka x Hikari and Chisaki x Tsumugu. That, as any good drama, will not resolve until the very end. That's why obstacles are created to be overcome. Tsumugu loves that temper of Chisaki, he can handle her. He doesn't seem to take offense or actually believe her obvious denial. He faces her without breaking a sweat. Hikari's still devoted to Manaka, while his understanding of her is a little more immature (because unlike Tsumugu, he didn't figure out Manaka's feelings), his affection is sincere, so was Manaka's support to "Protect him" in the past. I'm sorry, I just don't see how knowing how and when to move in and out of a kitchen or where everything in the house is placed shows the chemistry of a traditional married couple. At best you could say that they've lived together long enough that they understand each other's habits, but again that does not imply they make a great couple. If you've live in a dorm, a training camp or a boarding house with the same people long enough and you'll come to understand and learn everyone's tendencies, and the results would be similar to what we witnessed in the kitchen scene. I don't see it as anything special. The body language and domestic intimacy isn't proper of roommates, but of a couple of love birds. Are you Japanese? If you aren't or you haven't lived in Japan to know their customs, then you obviously don't understand how much of a big deal that held and why everyone commented on them being a couple (except the oblivious characters like Hikari). It was how they do it, the language they used and their overall chemistry. You go and watch Kaname and Chisaki tea scene as contrast. That was a pair of siblings, complete zero chemistry or intimacy between them. |
Turtlewack said: is anyone still shipping tsumugu x manaka? I know its impossible now but i just want to know if anyone else is sad the way things turned out. Haha, I'm still aboard the ship! I mean, it has long been sunk and sitting at the bottom of the ocean, but I'm still on it! I'll grow to accept Tsumugu x Chisaki because I am sure it is canon, but I will probably never like it. Unfortunately, Tsumugu x Manaka will probably (almost definitely) not be canon so alas friend, we must find our fanfiction and doujinshi to fill our hearts and minds. But they are my OTP of this series, for sure. |
| Tsumugu was rejected, but he will not give up, Chisaki then assumes that likes him, but she plan leave him hope they can stay together, I twist for this couple since the first episode Sayu confessed and finally Kaname understand your feelings, this couple was already expected Akira was also rejected, this scene was very esgraçada Hikari, Miuna and Manaka still in a standoff and still have another Ofunehiki, lot of things will still happen .. _________ Tsumugu foi rejeitado, mas ele nao vai desistir, Chisaki depois assume que gosta dele, mas planeja deixá-lo espero que eles possam ficar juntos, eu torci por esse casal desde o primeiro episódio Sayu se confessou e finalmente Kaname entendeu seus sentimentos, esse casal ja era esperado Akira também foi rejeitado, foi muito esgraçada essa cena Hikari, Miuna e Manaka continuam em um empasse e ainda terá outro Ofunehiki, muita coisa ainda vai acontecer .. |
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Thess said: L-Ryoshi said: Thess said: @L-Ryoshi: Again with the "sibling" chemistry when Kaname himself pointed out he was the one who Chisaki regarded as a sibling. Having the chemistry of a traditional married couple is different from a pair of siblings (Kaname and Chisaki are now an offiical and canonical example of how non related siblings actually behave for their society standard ;) ). Also it's difficult an unfair to compare a highly traumatized young woman like Chisaki and a person who lost her ability to love like Manaka with a girl who barely suffered any trauma outside a convenient one for her to get a shot with her crush like Sayu. Even if I am a Kaname x Sayu shipper, you can't just compare the hurdles and the eventual payoff of the main set up relationships: Manaka x Hikari and Chisaki x Tsumugu. That, as any good drama, will not resolve until the very end. That's why obstacles are created to be overcome. Tsumugu loves that temper of Chisaki, he can handle her. He doesn't seem to take offense or actually believe her obvious denial. He faces her without breaking a sweat. Hikari's still devoted to Manaka, while his understanding of her is a little more immature (because unlike Tsumugu, he didn't figure out Manaka's feelings), his affection is sincere, so was Manaka's support to "Protect him" in the past. I'm sorry, I just don't see how knowing how and when to move in and out of a kitchen or where everything in the house is placed shows the chemistry of a traditional married couple. At best you could say that they've lived together long enough that they understand each other's habits, but again that does not imply they make a great couple. If you've live in a dorm, a training camp or a boarding house with the same people long enough and you'll come to understand and learn everyone's tendencies, and the results would be similar to what we witnessed in the kitchen scene. I don't see it as anything special. The body language and domestic intimacy isn't proper of roommates, but of a couple of love birds. Are you Japanese? If you aren't or you haven't lived in Japan to know their customs, then you obviously don't understand how much of a big deal that held and why everyone commented on them being a couple (except the oblivious characters like Hikari). It was how they do it, the language they used and their overall chemistry. You go and watch Kaname and Chisaki tea scene as contrast. That was a pair of siblings, complete zero chemistry or intimacy between them. I'm not Japanese, but I am from an Asian part of the world where customs and body language is similar, and also have had the fortune to have been raised in a place where I've come into contact with both Eastern and Western culture and customs. With that said, I have to ask what sort of body language and domestic intimacy you are referring to, because aside from the Kitchen scene, which I did not find any hints of intimacy, I do not recall any one scene where the body language would be placed in the category as inappropriate of two good friends/childhood friends who know their way around their best friends houses. At best I would put it in terms of a close knit family tie, but nothing which could be accounted for as intimacy. Perhaps a bit of the conversation over non-alcoholic prune juice, but even that can be construed as banter with close family. Who knows, perhaps its because I was lucky enough to be raised in a close-knit family/community setting where friendly banter and things like this happen more often than not. Remember, Chisaki herself was not in a position to be intimate, and she shirked away from it even up to this episode. Tsumugu had the emotional intimacy of a rock prior to his confession. Yes, she is comfortable with Tsumugu, but not to the point of intimacy as you mentioned. So, yes, its from a decidedly Asian viewpoint which I am basing my argument from. |
L-RyoshiMar 20, 2014 11:17 PM
HESTIA   APPROVES |
Yven said: https://24.media.tumblr.com/82e09895238e14424e91bde94f32acce/tumblr_n2rtwcr3uk1razgwso4_1280.jpg Black Stone... He knew it yet he tried, props to Kaname. that's a nice pic of Kaname's crotch |
KillerBee721 said: Zeally said: Yven said: https://24.media.tumblr.com/82e09895238e14424e91bde94f32acce/tumblr_n2rtwcr3uk1razgwso4_1280.jpg Black Stone... He knew it yet he tried, props to Kaname. that's a nice pic of Kaname's crotch I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not lol...he's holding a black stone o.o Shit i didn't even notice the black stone til i stared at the screen. I was too mesmerized by Kaname's crotch o_o. |
| Well done Sayu, I feel really happy for you right now. This Episode was agan filled with a lot of emotion, as you das Chisaki and Tsumugu, Sayu and Kaname, Hikari and Manaka, Miuna and Hikari, yes everyone has an eye on someone, let's see what is actually going to happen. Akira got rejected by Manaka how cruel! |
L-Ryoshi said: Thess said: L-Ryoshi said: Thess said: @L-Ryoshi: Again with the "sibling" chemistry when Kaname himself pointed out he was the one who Chisaki regarded as a sibling. Having the chemistry of a traditional married couple is different from a pair of siblings (Kaname and Chisaki are now an offiical and canonical example of how non related siblings actually behave for their society standard ;) ). Also it's difficult an unfair to compare a highly traumatized young woman like Chisaki and a person who lost her ability to love like Manaka with a girl who barely suffered any trauma outside a convenient one for her to get a shot with her crush like Sayu. Even if I am a Kaname x Sayu shipper, you can't just compare the hurdles and the eventual payoff of the main set up relationships: Manaka x Hikari and Chisaki x Tsumugu. That, as any good drama, will not resolve until the very end. That's why obstacles are created to be overcome. Tsumugu loves that temper of Chisaki, he can handle her. He doesn't seem to take offense or actually believe her obvious denial. He faces her without breaking a sweat. Hikari's still devoted to Manaka, while his understanding of her is a little more immature (because unlike Tsumugu, he didn't figure out Manaka's feelings), his affection is sincere, so was Manaka's support to "Protect him" in the past. I'm sorry, I just don't see how knowing how and when to move in and out of a kitchen or where everything in the house is placed shows the chemistry of a traditional married couple. At best you could say that they've lived together long enough that they understand each other's habits, but again that does not imply they make a great couple. If you've live in a dorm, a training camp or a boarding house with the same people long enough and you'll come to understand and learn everyone's tendencies, and the results would be similar to what we witnessed in the kitchen scene. I don't see it as anything special. The body language and domestic intimacy isn't proper of roommates, but of a couple of love birds. Are you Japanese? If you aren't or you haven't lived in Japan to know their customs, then you obviously don't understand how much of a big deal that held and why everyone commented on them being a couple (except the oblivious characters like Hikari). It was how they do it, the language they used and their overall chemistry. You go and watch Kaname and Chisaki tea scene as contrast. That was a pair of siblings, complete zero chemistry or intimacy between them. I'm not Japanese, but I am from an Asian part of the world where customs and body language is similar, and also have had the fortune to have been raised in a place where I've come into contact with both Eastern and Western culture and customs. With that said, I have to ask what sort of body language and domestic intimacy you are referring to, because aside from the Kitchen scene, which I did not find any hints of intimacy, I do not recall any one scene where the body language would be placed in the category as inappropriate of two good friends/childhood friends who know their way around their best friends houses. At best I would put it in terms of a close knit family tie, but nothing which could be accounted for as intimacy. Perhaps a bit of the conversation over non-alcoholic prune juice, but even that can be construed as banter with close family. Who knows, perhaps its because I was lucky enough to be raised in a close-knit family/community setting where friendly banter and things like this happen more often than not. Remember, Chisaki herself was not in a position to be intimate, and she shirked away from it even up to this episode. Tsumugu had the emotional intimacy of a rock prior to his confession. Yes, she is comfortable with Tsumugu, but not to the point of intimacy as you mentioned. So, yes, its from a decidedly Asian viewpoint which I am basing my argument from. I'm sure your shipping bias is not affecting your misconception of the relationship, hmmm? They both have mutual romantic feelings for each others and while they do not act on it consciously, it's plastered in all their gestures when they lower their guards in their routine. Do you also cry full of emotions when your brother calls you beautiful? That is the reason why Chisaki was blushing full of emotional tears in episode 15. Do you feel guilty because your brother caught you arriving late after seeing your old flame? That was a guilty housewife caught red handed scene, pretty mimicked by Chisaki. Do you call yourself your brother's lonely housewife? Do you storm off because your brother didn't take the hints and couldn't deal with your own feelings (and dive into the sea)? Maybe in an incest show. I am very sorry you didn't catch the obvious sexual tension of their domestic life. I gave you examples that did not involve other people, but everyone with two working braincells in the cast can and has noticed them. Kaname noticed them as soon they walked together. Two people with domestic intimacy who are blatantly in love with each others who are trying to ignore the elephant in the room. Everyone in the village, according to Sayama, refers Chisaki as the lonely housewife. It is because of Tsumugu leaving her alone. Hint. This wasn't exactly subtle. The intended way the scriptwriters wanted us to read their relationship was blatantly telegraphed in the first episode of the timeskip. Your alternative, loose theory is just colored by subjective bias and ignoring blatant authorial intent which isn't even found in a slippery storyboard (well, there too), but found in the very first scenes with Chisaki. The show established one familial relationship between Tsumugu and Chisaki: as his housewife. Everything else you perceived was obviously wrong. This wasn't kept under wraps, it was specifically stated and reinforced including by Chisaki so there would not be misunderstandings for those slow in the uptake. Personally I don't believe you are slow in the uptake, but you are and were purposefully blinding yourself because you did not want to accept the fact they have and had romantic feelings for each others and that was a way to show their chemistry. You're still trying too hard to dismiss this when the show already established the one Chisaki treated as her brother is Kaname and the way she treats Kaname is very different to her treatment of Tsumugu. Chisaki and Tsumugu are the show most popular couple in Japan. For a good and solid reason: to the vast majority of the fanbase, they acted like a married couple. |
ThessMar 21, 2014 12:12 AM
| I find Chisaki denial mode and especially the fact that she thinks she'd betray sea people if she accepts Tsumugu's feeling unrealistic, for me it's ridiculous(and maybe too forced), i mean come on, her friends are already back, and the rest is just hibernating(they're not dead/suffering), why does she feels like betraying them?. I doubt a real life girl whose personality & situation similar to Chisaki's will act like that. |
Ravenix said: I find Chisaki denial mode and especially the fact that she thinks she'd betray sea people if she accepts Tsumugu's feeling unrealistic, for me it's ridiculous(and maybe too forced), i mean come on, her friends are already back, and the rest is just hibernating(they're not dead/suffering), why does she feels like betraying them?. I doubt a real life girl whose personality & situation similar to Chisaki's will act like that. It's an excuse, although it's probably worsening her state with her guilt complex. She's afraid of change. There's nothing unrealistic about it because it's always been her big obstacle. She refused to make moves on Hikari for the same reason. She didn't want anything to change, it wasn't the fear of rejection. She was angry when Manaka was trying to help Hikari notice her. |
| Manaka's character development is really suffering because of all this supernatural stuff (not being able to love). She's all spaced out most of the time and in her own world :c. |
| OHyeah! Sayu x Kaname it's happening. I really love that scene I have a feeling that either Chisaki or Miuna will be the sacrifice. I can't see this as a happy ending. I mean it better not be a happy ending I think it's better as a depressing feels ending. |
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Thess said: Ravenix said: I find Chisaki denial mode and especially the fact that she thinks she'd betray sea people if she accepts Tsumugu's feeling unrealistic, for me it's ridiculous(and maybe too forced), i mean come on, her friends are already back, and the rest is just hibernating(they're not dead/suffering), why does she feels like betraying them?. I doubt a real life girl whose personality & situation similar to Chisaki's will act like that. It's an excuse, although it's probably worsening her state with her guilt complex. She's afraid of change. There's nothing unrealistic about it because it's always been her big obstacle. She refused to make moves on Hikari for the same reason. She didn't want anything to change, it wasn't the fear of rejection. She was angry when Manaka was trying to help Hikari notice her. I agree! I love this episode, I just do.. nearly cried. LOL I love Sayu! just wow.. You go girl! Please make Kaname happy! I love Kaname so much he's too precious! And my poor Tsumugu TAT.. I worry about Manaka and Hikari.. Hopefully things will work out in the end. 2 episodes left and I'm hoping for happy tears! |
"Even if it's only one person go out and find someone unique" ☆ Anime List ★ Manga List ☆ Feel free to recommend me some anime! Thank you! (o⌒．⌒o) |
Yven said: Damn, I just thought it was a random black stone at first, but now I realized it's actually a Black rock from the sea slug. So he knew hes feeling were from.https://24.media.tumblr.com/82e09895238e14424e91bde94f32acce/tumblr_n2rtwcr3uk1razgwso4_1280.jpg Black Stone... He knew it yet he tried, props to Kaname. Chisaki bashing getting tiring, glad I like every character and not bashing any of them. |
| Melon |
Thess said: I'm sure your shipping bias is not affecting your misconception of the relationship, hmmm? They both have mutual romantic feelings for each others and while they do not act on it consciously, it's plastered in all their gestures when they lower their guards in their routine. Do you also cry full of emotions when your brother calls you beautiful? That is the reason why Chisaki was blushing full of emotional tears in episode 15. Do you feel guilty because your brother caught you arriving late after seeing your old flame? That was a guilty housewife caught red handed scene, pretty mimicked by Chisaki. Do you call yourself your brother's lonely housewife? Do you storm off because your brother didn't take the hints and couldn't deal with your own feelings (and dive into the sea)? Maybe in an incest show. I am very sorry you didn't catch the obvious sexual tension of their domestic life. I gave you examples that did not involve other people, but everyone with two working braincells in the cast can and has noticed them. Kaname noticed them as soon they walked together. Two people with domestic intimacy who are blatantly in love with each others who are trying to ignore the elephant in the room. Everyone in the village, according to Sayama, refers Chisaki as the lonely housewife. It is because of Tsumugu leaving her alone. Hint. This wasn't exactly subtle. The intended way the scriptwriters wanted us to read their relationship was blatantly telegraphed in the first episode of the timeskip. Your alternative, loose theory is just colored by subjective bias and ignoring blatant authorial intent which isn't even found in a slippery storyboard (well, there too), but found in the very first scenes with Chisaki. The show established one familial relationship between Tsumugu and Chisaki: as his housewife. Everything else you perceived was obviously wrong. This wasn't kept under wraps, it was specifically stated and reinforced including by Chisaki so there would not be misunderstandings for those slow in the uptake. Personally I don't believe you are slow in the uptake, but you are and were purposefully blinding yourself because you did not want to accept the fact they have and had romantic feelings for each others and that was a way to show their chemistry. You're still trying too hard to dismiss this when the show already established the one Chisaki treated as her brother is Kaname and the way she treats Kaname is very different to her treatment of Tsumugu. Chisaki and Tsumugu are the show most popular couple in Japan. For a good and solid reason: to the vast majority of the fanbase, they acted like a married couple. Woah, I never thought I'd actually have to come back to this. First off, I'm not here to argue, but to air my own point of view as I see them. For one, whilst I do admit that I had a previous bias against Tsumugu (in essence I considered him the unnecessary fifth wheel), if you have read my posts from way back since before the time skip episodes up to now, I do not "ship" anyone bar the canon couple of Hikari and Manaka, which have nothing to do with the disparity in viewpoints which you and I seem to have on hand. I may have previously mentioned in passing that I preferred Chisaki with someone else, however if you re-read any posts which I'd made I have made it blatantly clear that based solely on analysis, it was clear that Tsumugu and Chisaki were destined by the author to be together in the end. On pure analysis, I had long since deduced that Kaname had no chances with Chisaki already, way back since the end of the first arc. I did not take any particular stance in analyzing the situations which you have so mentioned above. I simply followed the flow of things as according to the anime timeline and the issues that the characters were dealing with during those times. I'm not simply looking at two people, but the entire picture here, and I have been doing my utmost to refrain from what you conveniently call shipping bias. My sole disagreement with your viewpoint seems to lay in not in whether the pair in question have feelings for each other, but AT WHICH POINT IN TIME did they start have feelings for each other and acting upon those feelings. Back in Episode 15, Chisaki was wracked with guilt over having to face Hikari again. Sure there may have been underlying signs that Chisaki may have had feelings for Tsumugu at that point in time, but the fact was that she did not truly resolve her feelings for Hikari up until episode 19. The crying and conflicts in emotions which you described were mostly due to her confusion and conflicted emotions regarding what she herself thought were her lingering feelings for Hikari AT THAT POINT IN TIME. Her "guilty housewife" act after meeting up with Hikari was also a case in point whereby she was still in denial that she deserved happiness (at that point in time Hikari was the only one who had awoken) with anyone (not just Tsumugu or Hikari, but anyone). Real case scenario: My niece gets all flustered when I or anyone else complements the way she dresses, does that mean she's in love with me or whoever is complementing her? I think not. She also storms off when she doesn't get the attention that she believes she deserves. Again does it show sexual tension? Or just a childish behaviour towards someone familiar with you? Can you really say that all such reactions from Chisaki are mature reactions? Can you really say that she's been actions and mindset have been completely mature during the whole second arc? I think not. When both Kaname and Tsumugu caught her putting on her old school uniform, she did not so much as blush for either of them as just get agitated and shoo them out of her room, no sign of romantic embarrassment there (that would have been the most obvious scene ever). You state that you give only the portions where only the two of them were shown together alone, but you didn't take into account of all the issues and things going on in the background DURING those periods in time. Between episode 14 to episode 18, Chisaki was still sorting out her true feelings for Hikari (which were resolved in episode 19 after her return with him to Shioshishio with her realizing that her "like" for him wasn't truly "love"). You also mentioned about how people around them were teasing Chisaki by calling her a "housewife". Think about it for a second. It's been five years since her friends and family have all vanished, and before anyone awakened from hibernation, there was always a distinct possibility that no one would ever wake up. What could the people of the village do to console a traumatized girl with no true family and no links to the surface? Obviously they would do everything in their ability to ensure that said girl moves on with her life. The fact that she was living with Tsumugu after the sad events pre-time skip just made her the butt of all jokes around the village. It's not like everyone in the village was purposely encouraging them to get together, as opposed to trying to make small talk to show that she was "one of the townsfolk". Its all friendly banter with your fellow neighbors whom you have gotten to know after 5 years time. We're talking about Asian communities here, and despite the stereotype that we don't explicitly show emotions and are all reserved introverts, not all such banter necessarily have hidden innuendos. It doesn't necessarily mean that everyone and their uncle were trying to put those two together. Look mate, as I said before, it's a discussion, and not an argument. I won't even bother responding to your "anyone with two working braincells" jibe because I'm not dumb enough to get riled off on forum comments. Yes, Chisaki and Tsumugu may be your ship, and they may end up being the most loved couple for their "familiarity routine" in all of Japan, or in all of the world for all I care, but in my own analysis of the bigger picture, none of the so-called sexual tension started happening until a certain point in time (personally I say after episode 19, but then she didn't show up in the next few). That's all I've been trying to say since the start. To that end, I am merely raising the points that not all interaction between two familiar people cohabiting together for an extended amount of time necessarily equates to "Love" or "sexual tension". |
L-RyoshiMar 21, 2014 2:17 AM
HESTIA APPROVES |
| Nice to see that Sayu has balls for a girl! She's the hero and Kaname is the heroine!! LOL!! But I'm seriously glad there's an official couple after 24 episodes. Who'll be the second couple? How I see it, the odd one out would most probably be Miuna. Tsumugu could either end up with Chisaki (most probable) or Manaka... Then Hikari could also end up with either Chisaki, Manaka (most probable), then his last choice would be Miuna.. There's more probability that Chisaki and Manaka will land with either of the 2 guys. but with Miuna, the only guy for her is Hikari. So, if Miuna would be the odd one out, she could always end up with her unnamed classmate.. Well, that's what I think. |
You can just be yourself. Do things your own way, one step at a time. You'll get there. Just be yourself, you'll be fine." ~Fruit Basket |
| Well that was short-lived with Chisaki and Tsugumi. At least she let out her feelings for him, though she needs to be honest with herself if she really liked him or not. Besides, isn't it weird that she is an adult while Hikari is a teenager. How cute when Akira giving Manaka a letter to her though getting rejected as a result XD. but she has something up her mind of what "Love" is. Miuna's feelings have been raised. Tsugumi has something up his sleeve for helping the Sea God and Manaka's feelings back. Damn, perfect moment for Sayu and Kaname. Let Ofunehiki be a success :D. |
L-Ryoshi said: First off, I'm not here to argue, but to air my own point of view as I see them. For one, whilst I do admit that I had a previous bias against Tsumugu (in essence I considered him the unnecessary fifth wheel), if you have read my posts from way back since before the time skip episodes up to now, I do not "ship" anyone bar the canon couple of Hikari and Manaka, which have nothing to do with the disparity in viewpoints which you and I seem to have on hand. I may have previously mentioned in passing that I preferred Chisaki with someone else, however if you re-read any posts which I'd made I have made it blatantly clear that based solely on analysis, it was clear that Tsumugu and Chisaki were destined by the author to be together in the end. On pure analysis, I had long since deduced that Kaname had no chances with Chisaki already, way back since the end of the first arc. And again, you were wrong, weren't you? The unnecessary fifth wheel has always been Kaname. The "odd man out" to quote him. Tsumugu was Manaka's first crush, Hikari was Chisaki's first crush, they developed serious feelings for the opposite man. Kaname's always been a fifth wheel that never matched the parallelism and mutual growth and set up of the first half of the show. Kaname breached the narrative set up and Chisaki always ignored him and favored Tsumugu's company until Kaname followed her again. It was unfair to Kaname. But it's also true, he realized it fairly early. He finally admitted it. Good for him. I did not take any particular stance in analyzing the situations which you have so mentioned above. I simply followed the flow of things as according to the anime timeline and the issues that the characters were dealing with during those times. I'm not simply looking at two people, but the entire picture here, and I have been doing my utmost to refrain from what you conveniently call shipping bias. My sole disagreement with your viewpoint seems to lay in not in whether the pair in question have feelings for each other, but AT WHICH POINT IN TIME did they start have feelings for each other and acting upon those feelings. Anime timeline established Chisaki was a lonely housewife in episode 14. No, you're not looking at the "big picture" but blatantly ignoring the text to pursue some off-wall interpretation. The series is not really that subtle. Miuna has her uncle family issues addressed. Meanwhile everyone in that village and who meets Tsumugu and Chisaki evoke this. Back in Episode 15, Chisaki was wracked with guilt over having to face Hikari again. Sure there may have been underlying signs that Chisaki may have had feelings for Tsumugu at that point in time, but the fact was that she did not truly resolve her feelings for Hikari up until episode 19. It was never about Hikari. He was just an excuse to shield her feelings for Tsumugu but Tsumugu calling her beautiful makes her blush and tear up (And yes, the storyboard specifically points out it's Tsumugu's voice that evokes this reaction flood and zero mention of Hikari :P), she feels ashamed for coming late and face Tsumugu. Again, Hikari's just an excuse she clings. If you like Chisaki and actually read her real feelings, you should have guessed this before Kaname gave her a sermon about her self-deception. Because, get this, she's afraid to change. She hasn't been in love with Hikari for years. This is canon. Real case scenario: My niece gets all flustered when I or anyone else complements the way she dresses, does that mean she's in love with me or whoever is complementing her? I think not. She also storms off when she doesn't get the attention that she believes she deserves. Again does it show sexual tension? Or just a childish behaviour towards someone familiar with you? Can you really say that all such reactions from Chisaki are mature reactions? Can you really say that she's been actions and mindset have been completely mature during the whole second arc? I think not. I don't know your niece or care about it. You're still ignoring the fact the relationship was meant to read as his housewife since the beginning of the timeskip. It's fun to see you look up ludicrous real life scenes to justify your selective blindness and taking them out of context. When both Kaname and Tsumugu caught her putting on her old school uniform, she did not so much as blush for either of them as just get agitated and shoo them out of her room, no sign of romantic embarrassment there (that would have been the most obvious scene ever). Yeah and that's why she immediately tried to convince Tsumugu she's a grow girl who can handle alcohol? Once her little brother was tucked in bed. ;) When Tsumugu caught her naked, she was embarrassed and she was shy to face him. Kaname of course isn't even a factor, but she immediately tries to make herself the big girl in Tsumugu's eyes. Cause and effect. He seemly ignores her. Cause and effect. She dives in the sea and feeds her delusional fantasy she "loves Hikari" because Tsumugu foolishly hurt her feelings (Also her fear of change). You state that you give only the portions where only the two of them were shown together alone, but you didn't take into account of all the issues and things going on in the background DURING those periods in time. Between episode 14 to episode 18, Chisaki was still sorting out her true feelings for Hikari (which were resolved in episode 19 after her return with him to Shioshishio with her realizing that her "like" for him wasn't truly "love"). She wasn't sorting out anything, not sincerely. She already knew she loved Tsumugu, she was using Hikari as her emotional crutch (and again, the storyboard is quite helpful and handy of how to interpret scenes, there's no feeling of "love" evoked by Hikari from Chisaki). Now she's using Manaka. Her non-existent old feelings for Hikari are not the issue and neither are Manaka's lack of love, Chisaki's issue is her change phobia increased up to eleven by the survivor's guilt complex she nurses. Now, I understand people getting alternative interpretations but Chisaki's always been a cowardly liar who envies and resents Manaka's honesty and courage. Of course she was behaving in this craven manner. The people who bash her now are those who never understood her or her arc in the first place (not you in particular but the general hate). Look mate, as I said before, it's a discussion, and not an argument. I won't even bother responding to your "anyone with two working braincells" jibe because I'm not dumb enough to get riled off on forum comments. Which I referred to the show cast, who you know, know better than your "family experience" or even my observation because they see them interact. When all town is calling her like that is for a reason. |
ThessMar 21, 2014 2:51 AM
RioFoxx said: (blatant inability to discuss from a response of a longer post that pretended to not 'argue' while actually arguing and inserting their personal life experience in a show rather than actually interpreting what was stated on screen and picking on the obvious storyarcs by taking into account the character's personalty including their flaws) I am feeling generous. I would also suggest to surf more good stuff in there, because the Chinese fandom always scans everything. :p |
lpzwei said: RioFoxx said: Thess said: (Long ass post that most sane people would just skim through, especially considering the overly-haughty tone of your response.) So, where exactly can one find these storyboards you keep waving around like your trump card? While I do think that it's meaningless to try to convince people who don't want to be convinced, the storyboards exist and they do show that the staff was planning Chisaki->Tsumugu for a long time. Check the thread number 103962173 in the /a/ archive (the link to the tieba thread the storyboards were taken from is also there). But really, these arguments here won't lead to anything, everyone just keeps getting butthurt over how to interpret which ships (romance anime really bring out the worst of the fandom). Did someone from /a/ translate it because if not, I might. I saw them in my haunts of Baidu. I look up everything there since I found rare Hellsing fanart years ago and then all the Macross Frontier goodies. It's a very handful website once you learn how to surf it because it's a source of reliable scans of everything speedy. The Japanese fandom hates piracy, so they rarely scan. Edit: Just in case people need help. Main website: forum. Gallery folders. |
ThessMar 21, 2014 3:36 AM
| *dodges cannonballs in this naval battle* I hope Tsumugu and Chisaki will have another chat soon. I'm guessing I'm in the vast minority that prefers them over the other pairings, but I like how domestic and calm (some flashier people would say boring) they are when they're not going through plot forced drama. I also like how they fell in love slowly over time, while anime usually caters to the sudden crush crowds. Not to mention they don't subscribe to the kinda odd 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' idea that Sayu and Miuna do (while I like the girls, I just don't get what's so wonderful about Kaname or Hikari that they'd pine after them for five years). Anyway, I've enjoyed this anime and its pretty visuals enough to not really care who ends up with who if the ending is otherwise satisfying :) |
lpzwei said: I think they did part of what was translated into Chinese, but it's scattered across the thread, so if you want, I don't think a nicely arranged translation would hurt (it's always good if someone who knows Japanese can confirm everything) :D I'll try to work on it. When I'm back from work. No promises because I'm busy, but I mean not just the Chisaki/Tsumugu scenes but the other storyboards scattered around. If these ones already got attention, it's better to look for the unloved ones. |
Thess said: lpzwei said: RioFoxx said: Thess said: (Long ass post that most sane people would just skim through, especially considering the overly-haughty tone of your response.) So, where exactly can one find these storyboards you keep waving around like your trump card? While I do think that it's meaningless to try to convince people who don't want to be convinced, the storyboards exist and they do show that the staff was planning Chisaki->Tsumugu for a long time. Check the thread number 103962173 in the /a/ archive (the link to the tieba thread the storyboards were taken from is also there). But really, these arguments here won't lead to anything, everyone just keeps getting butthurt over how to interpret which ships (romance anime really bring out the worst of the fandom). Did someone from /a/ translate it because if not, I might. I saw them in my haunts of Baidu. I look up everything there since I found rare Hellsing fanart years ago and then all the Macross Frontier goodies. It's a very handful website once you learn how to surf it because it's a source of reliable scans of everything speedy. The Japanese fandom hates piracy, so they rarely scan. Edit: Just in case people need help. Main website: forum. Gallery folders. You still don't seem to understand where I'm coming from in this issue, and then you have the gall to call my response overly-haughty. Then you go about with your argument by saying "this is canon" and "this is from the storyboard" as as your response, in a way too overly-haughty and borderline insulting manner, I might add. First off, you have analysis from storyboards, but not the entire story from the author of the work. Also when you say canon, whose canon? Yours? Did the author explicitly state all the points out, which you so blatantly dismiss as obvious to everyone because somehow they are obvious to you, as Canon? Quite the arrogant response there. I may not have access to the storyboard, but I do have experience in dealing with people and sufficient intelligence to make observations. To take portions of my arguments out of context and then to justify your argument, without reading it through just shows that you are hell bent on proving others wrong to stoke your ego. I can only laugh at the ridiculousness of some of these people trying to put others opinions down simply because they don't conform to their own interpretations. If you read my previous post, the housewife handle was a joke from the towns people, something that even Chisaki would lightly banter with the townsfolk about. After living 5 years in a village where everyone knows everyone else you would imagine closer friends and acquaintances whom you've met all the time to make light of the living arangements between Tsumugu and Chisaki. The fact that Chisaki wasn't blushing her ass all the way home in episode 14 just goes to show that she doesn't really mind the jokes and the banter because after 5 years, she's been assimilated into the community. She feels a part of the Tsumugu family, just not under the housewife tag which you seem hell bent to imprint into her. Simple as that. In any case, that was my interpretation of the housewife tag. This is a free world, and the last time I checked I was still allowed to make an honest observation and state an obvious opinion without having someone insult my tone or intelligence. Dare you to refute that claim? As for your blatant refute of "she wasn't sorting anything out, she was mindlessly in love with Tsumugu". You have an opinion that they were together already from since the start of the time skip, and that Chisaki already "knew" about it. That's your opinion, yours alone. All I see that you are doing is trying to foist your opinion onto the fans in this thread simply because you have a serious want for your opinion and observations to be "canon" or "right, and that there are some storyboards out there that support your argument. I have my own observations, and Chisaki pushing Tsumugu away in this latest episode kinda agreed with what I had previously observed, is all. Things aren't all so rosy in the Tsumugu house. I never said I was completely right in my observations, and I never said that every word I said was canon, I don't even claim to have any sources like some interview with the author that will definitely prove once and for all that my ideas are right and yours are wrong. However, could I even say the same for you and the arrogant way in which you are trying to seal your argument? If making yourself sound like you know every single thing about the an anime stokes your ego that much, then just go ahead and enjoy it. I have no need to do such a thing (like I said, I only based things on my observations and my lifetime of experience), and I really can't be bothered to give another response seeing as I can practically see the arrogance bleeding through your words. If you enjoy telling others that your words are canon and that every observation you make is right and any disparity in opinion will be met with overly haughty backlashes as responses, well have fun. I'll just sit back and enjoy the show with my own opinions and observations intact. Peace. |
L-RyoshiMar 21, 2014 4:14 AM
HESTIA APPROVES |
L-Ryoshi said: (my interpretation based on my personal family experience is more canon than what the writers type about the scenes or what is stated on screen b-b-because I say so in a long post of again off base interpretation to suit my self-inserting needs for an unknown reason! Oh and I'll also pretend I actually read your arguments and remember things of the show, like for instance, Chisaki actually blushing and being taken aback by the nickname, or even understanding what you mean because I am so frustrated about Kaname being a fifthwheel rather than Tsumugu! Look at me pretending to be so mature and not caring with walls of text! Not caring at all) Peace. That's all I read about. Obviously you can't talk to a wall who thinks they are right when they are blatantly wrong and refuse to acknowledge it. So let's leave the pairing talk aside. (And of course I'll be smug, the episode and the storyboards proved my interpretation right while all those whiny Peter Pan syndrome shippers without a lick of sense of Chisaki's struggle got soundly told). Let's talk about Chisaki (and this also goes to her bashers). Chisaki's not 'sorting out her feelings' in the sense you believe she is. If you actually believe that, you don't know a single thing about her character or her storyarc and need to seriously re-watch this show. She's not an indecisive person. She's a cowardly one. (There is a big difference. Manaka was uncertain about her feelings for Hikari and Tsumugu and, when she was sure, she was going to go for it. On the other hand, Chisaki had a certainly but refuses to go for it unless the plot makes her grow a spine). She knew she loved Hikari in the first half but she refused to act because she didn't want things to change, she gained more courage in the end. But trauma just augmented her complexes. Now she knew she loved Tsumugu, it's in the goddamn EPISODE you just watched (Kaname, bless his heart, even told you flat out Chisaki's been into him since before the timeskip), but she's afraid to face this fact and progress in her relationship, she made a lot of excuses to avoid it. Just like with Hikari. This has nothing to do with which boy she likes. Chisaki's the problem here. This isn't romance related, but romance is a medium that conducts the trauma to be addressed because of the relationship drama. Chisaki's not indecisive, she's a coward. She's always overwhelmed by her fear and insecurities, specially those related to change. This is not a 'sudden' change or flaw, most of the people who bash her never actually paid attention to her. This has been her struggle since the beginning. She'll never be able to progress romantically or as a person until she is willing to face her fears. Her walls are crumbling down at last. |
ThessMar 21, 2014 5:13 AM
| Umm aren't you guys getting all worked up for nothing? The episode was so good :3 i think Chisaki is pretty weird for behaving like that. Hikari go get Manakaaaaa. Sayu's confession was the best, Miuna should learn a thing or two from her, shes such a coward |
| "If you don't love anyone, it'll make your life easier. But, I don't want to believe it's useless to love anyone" - Hikari Sakishima |
| Man, this show is getting dark as fuck lately. Manaka losing her ability to love. Everybody involved in some kind of love drama. The ofunehiki being repeated all over again. Very interested to see how this is going to end in these final 2 episodes. The story is just absolutely incredible. I will say this though: Chisaki - worst fucking female character in history. Everything about her is just SO awful. When she almost said she wanted to be the next ofunehiki sacrifice, I was like, yes please. Just do it and die you're annoying. Such a shame since she's voiced by Kayano who's just about my favorite female voice actress. On the plus side, good to see the Sayu x Kaname thing kind of took off finally. I honestly didn't really expect it either. It just seemed like something the creator threw in there to get people thinking and to stir up the drama pot, but nothing would ever come of it. Kind of like the Miuna x Hikari relationship. Actually glad to see I was wrong on that though. |
| It's amazing how people vehemently argue their position, describing the huge wall of text. And they say with one hundred percent certainty. But this anime is not always predictable, is not it? |
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