Why Do People Like Sena So Much?

Takuan_Soho said:


Sena's fault is in her personality; since she is an elite, she will never lose that obnoxious arrogance of hers. Yozora's problems (and there are many) have a cause, and in having a cause there is hope that there is a cure, and once cured, Yozora would be a pretty awesome person. The cause will become clearer in Vol. 9, but the clues were there in Next (and I wrote about it back when the series ended).

If you want a truer insight into the two characters all you have to do is to see how they react to the games they play: Sena and her eroge, and Yozora with the galge. I would also point out the episode where they watched the homoge, the lines that Yoroza remembered, and the lines that Sena read. That was where their true personalities shown forth.

Another area she is superior to Sena is with her self-honesty. Yozora doesn't pretend to want friends, she doesn't pretend to like people, in contradistinction to Sena who claims she wants girl friend, but it soon becomes clear that she doesn't. Yusa helps to show this, but the real indication is when Sena goes on about how much she "loves" Kobata, she shows no real empathy with Kobata, instead becoming a stalker whose main goal (as the eroge showed) is for Kobata to serve as her lust object.

Yozora actually isn't bitter. Saying she is bitter implies some sort of resentment, but it isn't like Yozora tried to be popular and failed, making her bitter; the scenes where she acts the most pathetic actually have a meaning behind them. Yozora actually has some severe psychological issues made evident by her inability to be out in public, her reaction on the train when they said she both "looked like a girl" and was cute (this realization drove her into only wearing sweatsuits when out in public), and her collapsing after confronting Yusa, all show that there is something in Yozora's past that is causing her to act this way.

Far from being a "failed main character", Yozora is the one who is driving the action. In short she is the true protagonist of this series. Kodaka is merely riding on her coat-tails.

MDL98 said:

The real indication is when Sena goes on about how much she "loves" Kobata, she shows no real empathy with Kobata, instead becoming a stalker whose main goal (as the eroge showed) is for Kobata to serve as her lust object. You said that. If Sena shows no empathy with Kobato then why did she buy all of the BD's for her favourite show? She even said in NEXT that she bought them so when Kobato comes over next time they can watch it together. You present good points on everything else but I think you missed the ball on this one.
PS: They way you present your points is bias but that's only natural :)

MDL98 said:
The real indication is when Sena goes on about how much she "loves" Kobata, she shows no real empathy with Kobata, instead becoming a stalker whose main goal (as the eroge showed) is for Kobata to serve as her lust object. You said that. If Sena shows no empathy with Kobato then why did she buy all of the BD's for her favourite show? She even said in NEXT that she bought them so when Kobato comes over next time they can watch it together. You present good points on everything else but I think you missed the ball on this one.

MDL98 said:
And also, only Kobato see's Sena actions as stalkerish not any of the other characters UNLESS it was presented that way purposely for comedic relief.

Takuan_Soho said:


Do you really thinks this shows empathy? Sena bought the BD's not because she liked the show, but because she wanted to use them to get close to Kobata; Kobata called her out on this point at the park.
Sena knew that Kobata loved that show and she then pretended to be a "big fan" in order to score points with Kobata; far from showing empathy there, it would be closer to cynical manipulation.

Of course I am not saying that Sena is either of them, she is merely at a loss at how to get close to Kobata never having this issue in her past (and having Pegasus as a father). But that demonstrates my point, Sena lacks empathy because she has never needed to relate to people (and quite possibly being a natural elite she cannot anymore than she can understand why people cannot score perfect on tests by merely paying attention in class); that is her particular reason why she cannot make friends.



Not quite accurate, when Kodaka invited Kobata to join him when he went to Sena's house to study, he silently acknowledged that Sena had caused Kobata to hate her, he also is fully cognitive that Sena is stalking Yozora. He specifically wanted to tell Pegasus this in the bathroom that episode, and he also references this at the theme park. Yozora also makes a comment on Sena's obsession with Kobata during the birthday party, when she comments on Sena always going too far.

As for my bias, as I stated above I think that Rika is the best character as of now, but the author has made it very clear that Yozora is where the "character development" of this series lies. So when I respond, I factor this into my statements making me seem more "Yozora-esque" than I am.

MDL98 said:
Don't really want to admit this but I just got served, very very nice points raised. My previous thoughts are still pretty much the same though.. it's just you added more accurate ones.

Takuan_Soho said:


I don't think this site keeps score, so no worries.

Another thing on Sena, above I referenced that Sena's fault is that she cannot relate to normal people both because she IS superior to most people (looks, grades, athleticism, money, status, etc), but also because she believes that these things make her superior and is arrogant about it. In order for Sena to become the "best girl", it is this second thing she has to lose; otherwise despite all her positive qualities she would be an insufferable bore. The trouble is that there is only two ways for Sena to learn this: one she needs to meet someone superior to her (which is going to be difficult) or two she needs to be knocked off perch by someone. In this show Kodaka has provided the first (when he rescued her at the pool and then dominated her verbally on the bus), while Yozora has served as the perch knocker. The "progress" that Sena has shown during this series has come from these two sources (her being able to love Kodaka, and Yozora forcing her to be more honest about her desires).

Both methods though require that she suffer some sort of humiliation in order to humble her, whether it was her feeling of helplessness before the guys at the pool, or the various humiliations she suffered from Yozora (and eventually Kobata). In order Sena to really improve though as a character, she is going to have to suffer something pretty severe, something that crushes the arrogance out of her, and finally will allow her to relate to common people. Yozora was providing this in small doses, however Yozora in the last couple of episodes has been knocked out of this game, and this will cause Sena to backslide.

This is why a couple of posts back I said that Yozora is better than Sena in this regard. Yozora's issue is that her past is weighing on her like a ton of bricks, suppressing her true character (as seen in the Galge and when she was Sora), remove this burden and the true Yozora will be able to come out; Sena though since her problems are internal, will need some major external ordeal in order to become a better person.

The writer has made it clear that Yozora relief is on the block, so we will start seeing improvements in Yozora's character (though it will be a slow process); the author has shown us nothing regarding how Sena will overcome her issues, though he has shown that Rika and Yukimura have broken out of their issues (both have true friends, Rika has Kodaka, .

MDL98 said:
You make me a hell of a lot more interested in the show that i previously was. Shame there hasn't been any change or "Improvement" in Sena's character. But hopefully it will come soon.
PS: Sorry I can't debate you, I have only seen the anime and I watched it casually with my mind off so I take in as little as possible.

Takuan_Soho said:


If I made you more interested in the show I am completely happy. I really like this show, I think the author is extremely good and has a clear understand of where he wants to go, so I really have fun drilling down to very trivial matters because in this series, the trivial things matter, so it is like catnip for me (if I were a cat).

I should say that I don't really debate, that isn't my purpose. I don't care if I win or lose, I don't care if my speculations are proved completely wrong. I like to argue because putting a position out there and suffering attacks makes me have to re-exam what I think; its the fastest way of learning both my mistakes, but more importantly forces me to consider something I never thought of before. Granted I sound confrontational, but I am not trying to confront people, rather I want people to confront me (and if possible defeat me). This used to be the primary method of learning (before the idiotic idea of "self esteem" took over), so when I post think of it in that regard. So don't worry, throw out any idea you have, I will always treat it seriously and answer seriously, but ultimately for me (and others I hope) it is really a game.

As for Sena, her issues lie with her parents. Both Pegasus, but more importantly, with her mother. You will know that Sena's time has come (as a character and her development) when her mother comes back. My guess this will happen in volume 11. An interesting difference between Sena and Yozora is that Sena is still trying so hard to live to her image of her parents (Sena has basically been neglected, and rather than admit her parents suck (which they do), she justified their selfishness as a virtue, this is the source of her problems today); whereas Yoroza has no illusions about her parents. They were horrific and she knows it (and suffers from it). We get a little of this in Vol 9 (with Yozora), but I expect the writer will develop this more in future volumes.

MDL98 said:
If what you say Sena's problems are with her parents, then as an anime watcher I'd like to think there is definitely going to be a solution. Also, is there going to be a female character that Kodaka choses? Has the author hinted at any?

Takuan_Soho said:

In 9

As for Sena's parental problems. While there have been multiple animation hints (Sena never having been to an amusement park, Pegasus hanging out with similar aged girls (Kate), and the mystery as to why Sena did not attend Junior High School at their current school) the animation really hasn't covered it. I had thought Sena's mother was dead until I read the Light Novels and discovered that she is living in France and the specific reference that Sena thinks that superior people don't worry about things like, well their children (i.e. Sena), is because they are superior. Its little things like this that make the characters so much more appealing.

TDarkNight said:
A little disappointed that Yozora is the female in the lead but oh well. Sena still seems to be the most interesting character to me. Also, as a person who was read the light novels, how true is the anime to the light novels?

Xelythia said:
She's unique. You don't find many other people like her in other anime, and that makes her entertaining.

Raziel1991 said:
I really think the logic of some anime fans is hilarious. Yes Yozora is a bad person but that doesnt mean she is a bad character, its like saying villians cant be good characters and that just wrong. Like I said Yozora has tons of flaws but thats exactly what makes her an interesting character.Sena on the other hand is just your generic, uninspired and perfect otaku waifu.

Raziel1991 said:
I really think the logic of some anime fans is hilarious. Yes Yozora is a bad person but that doesnt mean she is a bad character, its like saying villians cant be good characters and that just wrong. Like I said Yozora has tons of flaws but thats exactly what makes her an interesting character.Sena on the other hand is just your generic, uninspired and perfect otaku waifu.

elkensteyin said:


Actually, you have them pretty much reversed. Yozora is your classic former childhood friend tsundere, like SO many other female protagonists in Anime. And as such, everyone assumes that she should be the one who 'wins' in the end when she finally warms up to Kodaka.

Sena, on the other hand, is not really you're typical 3rd wheel in a love triangle. While there have been several characters similar to her in other anime (Ami from Toradora comes to mind), she really is much more of a unique character than Yozora.

Also, stop looking at it from you're perspective, and try to look at it from the perspective of the other characters in the show. Yozora still hasn't made the tsundere transition, she still mean to Kodaka, and while the other major characters are friends with her, they generally keep their distance, with Kodaka really only looking at her as a continuation of his childhood friend. With Sena, like I said in a previous comment, she has shown that she truly loves Kodaka, he knows it, as do the other characters.

Based on this, I really hope the author (forget his name) doesn't take the tired old route and have the main character end with the tsundere. it'd be so much refreshing to have Kodaka with Sena, since it's a much better match anyway.

TDarkNight said:
Is Yozora meant to be tsundere? I personally didn't see her character like this. I am assuming you have seen NEXT but from what I have gathered over the course of the 2 seasons is that Yozora has some kind of loss issues. She still hasn't been able to come back into social society after Kodaka left her at young age. This is shown when Sena confesses to Kodaka. The facial expressions show loss for words, shock etc. and her natural response to it is to run away. Which is obviously the easiest thing to do in their situations (Both Yozora and Kodaka do this from Senas confession). Personally I agree that I don't want Yozora to be "The Chosen One" and would like to see Sena be it, however I think the most satisfying ending would be a neither. Remember, the point of the show is the same reason why 'The Neighbours Club' was created, to make friends. I know that the group themselves have made deep friendships but the point of the show isn't for Kodaka to chose a female character. If it was, and he was to chose the most complete character as of now would be Rika but we all know that, that isn't going to happen. Also on your note of Sena not being your typical third wheeling character, once again I see this completely differently. In the sense that no one is third wheeling. In Ami's case in ToraDora, yes, you are completely right on that but "Love" relationships haven't happened between either Kodaka and Yozora or Kodaka and Sena so far so we can't really say anything about a third wheel. And Sena being a unique character? Umm.... really? I don't think there are many unique characters left to make but a - Rich girl, good looks, smart, weird fetish (Eroge) archetype doesn't seem to unique. However in my 80+ different shows that I have seen (I know rather small) I haven't encountered one. But perhaps someone else can challenge you on the Unique argument? Thoughts?

elkensteyin said:
You make some good points there. However, yes, I do see Yozora as a tsundere, albeit one that hasn't made the public transition to being affectionate. And yes, I did see the next to last episode when she looked to almost break-down during Sena's confession. I actually liked seeing that, not because of any negativity towards Yozora, but actually finally seeing her show a human, feeling side.

As for your comment on neither, I guess my issue is that I like seeing closure on series, and I would really like to see the series end with a situation where Kodaka is dating/marries to Sena (or dating Yukimora), as well as able to continue to be friends with Yozora. I'd also like to see more of Kobato's interactions with her middle school classmates (possibly evern a spin-off), since she's so popular but has some social issues.

Takuan_Soho said:


Yozora is not tsundere. Yozora has no desire to be Tsun to Kodaka, indeed it is very much the opposite in that she is trying her best to be a dere with him. Pretty much since she discovered that he remembered Sora in season one (which was long before he knew Sora was Yozora), she has been trying to ask him out. If anything Kodaka is the Tsun of this series and he has been it to ALL the girls.

Also Yozora has shown her "feeling" side multiple times. She was the one who said that they were using Rika too much and canceled the movie because they weren't there, she also had the look of relief when Sena recovered from the Fortune Telling scene, and multiple times in the first season she could have destroyed Sena (actually taping her like Rika did to Kodaka, actually changing the Karaoke location, etc), but she had always pulled back from being that mean (this is why the fortune telling bothered her so much, she feared she went too far). This isn't too say that Yozora doesn't come off as mean a lot of times, but she often has a human face.



The series isn't close to closure yet. The next volume has been released with at least several more to come. High level spoiiler:

Manganese said:
How'd you know that? It's translated already? Or you hear it from some alternative source? o_O

Takuan_Soho said:


No, I read the original. My Japanese is barely good enough to understand what is going on, and fortunately Hanagai's writer is pretty straight forward when he writes, otherwise I would have serious doubts about my comprehension.

If you want to know what is going on the "LOL YOZORA LOL." thread gives a lot of spoilers if you care. If you have specific questions feel free to write me.

elkensteyin said:
As for your comments on how Yozora could have destroyed Sena, I'm going to have to disagree. One of the things that you notice, here and there, in the series, that Sena tries to hide, is that she allows Yozora to bully her. Why, there are multiple reasons, but one that I know is that she actually has friends. Another is that she has found an equal in Yozora, one whom she cannot get rid of simply with the threat of power and money, as she implied to Rika in the next to last episode.

Yes, Sena is flightly, and she can get all worked up and run out crying, but I actually find that as an attraction to her character. However, when needed, Sena will change, almost on a dime, to the strong, arrogant rich girl if the need arises. Those are some of my favorite scenes in the series.

Manganese said:

On your point that you raise about Yozora "Destroying" Sena, I think she already has. She obviously isn't going to humiliate her to the point where she would not come to school, be depressed etc. because she isn't a b*tch and understands that, that isn't cool. Yozora has done many bad things to Sena however in the many cases it only escalates to a certain degree due to Sena's innocence. She believes nearly everything Yozora says and even goes so far to be happy that Yozora isn't being mean to her. A lot of what Yozora does/says to Sena is obvious sarcasm or bullsh*t but Sena doesn't pick up on it and in ultimately it is her fault.

Manganese said:

On your point that you raise about Yozora "Destroying" Sena, I think she already has. She obviously isn't going to humiliate her to the point where she would not come to school, be depressed etc. because she isn't a b*tch and understands that, that isn't cool. Yozora has done many bad things to Sena however in the many cases it only escalates to a certain degree due to Sena's innocence. She believes nearly everything Yozora says and even goes so far to be happy that Yozora isn't being mean to her. A lot of what Yozora does/says to Sena is obvious sarcasm or bullsh*t but Sena doesn't pick up on it and in ultimately it is her fault.

TDarkNight said:
On your point that you raise about Yozora "Destroying" Sena, I think she already has. She obviously isn't going to humiliate her to the point where she would not come to school, be depressed etc. because she isn't a b*tch and understands that, that isn't cool. Yozora has done many bad things to Sena however in the many cases it only escalates to a certain degree due to Sena's innocence. She believes nearly everything Yozora says and even goes so far to be happy that Yozora isn't being mean to her. A lot of what Yozora does/says to Sena is obvious sarcasm or bullsh*t but Sena doesn't pick up on it and in ultimately it is her fault.

elkensteyin said:


Again, like I stated to Takuan, I disagree. Yes, Sena can be quite innocent, and she may not pick up on everything Yozora does, but that doesn't mean she's totally unaware of what's going on. While Sena believes much of what Yozora tells here (i.e. hair style, fortune telling), primarily because she wants friends and it makes her happy, she is much stronger than you think. Think about what she told Kodaka in episode 3 of the first season regarding 'Meat'. And also, the last several episodes, when Yozora wasn't always strong, Sena took over a bit. Yozora gets away with much of what she does to Sena because Sena allows it. Based on that, she is far from being 'destroyed', and in retrospect to some of the things Takuan stated, she's quite possibly stronger than Yozora - think about the one time that Sena made Yozora run off crying, and what Yozora said.

TDarkNight said:

So what you're saying is, is that Sena allows her self to be bullied? Be treated that way from Yozora? In the final few episodes (NEXT) true she does step up but thats to Yusa Aoi. She has stepped up to Yozora before but it happens once every 6 episodes and the rest her being tormented from stupidity by Yozora. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I hate Sena, in fact I like her more than Yozora but her flaws if you want to call them that are very clear.

elkensteyin said:


For the most part, yes, she allows herself to be bullied. Oh, there are times that she's caught off-guard, but I keep going back to the fact that she mentions here and there that she's happy. I also won't disagree that she has flaws, all the characters in the series have flaws, which is one of the reasons why it's so enjoyable to watch, since it's not your everyday Slice or Life or Harem. That being said, I will keep to my opinion that she is a stronger character than Yozora, although I think I'd have to say that Rika is probably the strongest character in the series.

TDarkNight said:

Haha I agree with you on that! I think I shall end this discussion here as I don't think there is anything else to say. The reason why I am saying this is because it was a fun discussion and you weren't being immature like some of the other users are. So hats off to you Sir.

elkensteyin said:
Thanks, and the feeling is mutual there. I know what you mean about immature users. Deal with them all the time on a variety of issues. I'm going to take Takuan's advice and read the light novels, since I have some time now due to the government shutdown. Maybe that'll throw some light on things I didn't know.

itazuranamelody said:
It's because there are a lot of people in this world who like big boobs. I'm with you all the way; I don't like Sena either.

lazyboy0337 said:
This entire thread in a nutshell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGTPjD4TKkA

fueille said:
0/10 meat confirmed for worst girl

TDarkNight said:
Found something super interesting whilst I was re-watching Haganai Season 1. On episode 9 21:22 - 21:27 Stella (Sena's butler) started singing the traditional American wedding song. Is this an anime only thing? Other why's this could be some serious foreshadowing? I think in context it is just Stella making fun of Sena's dad but from what we find out later on in the serious, it might not be?