Did Claude's feelings change?

Sep 17, 2010 1:35 PM

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WARNING! THIS DISCUSSION CONTAINS SPOILERS!

Before dying, Claude said that if Alois, as Sebastian said, really controlled him from the beginning and was such a presence in a demon's long, boring life, then his soul was probably worth devouring.
Also, before dying Claude says he's dying over bocchan's soul, but Sebastian laughs and tells him that's not true because Alois wanted him to die that way, and Claude is dying because Alois planned it.
Then Claude said his last words, and I'm pretty sure he was going to say he was the Trancy butler because in his little usual speech about turning things into something else, he was clearly referring to Alois when he said "turn the street dog into an Earl".
Then Ciel asks Alois if he's satisfied, and it seems as if Alois cannot believe what just happened, and says he prefers not to know (and he smiles happily). Then Hannah bursts into tears of joy, telling Alois that finally Claude "acknowledged him" (whatever that means).
Then Hannah said "Jim, Luka, Hannah and Claude, the love of the four of us will create an eternal nirvana". She's referring to Claude's love too, yeah, but love for what? For who?
Then I read an interview in which one of the producers said, about Alois and Claude: "the two of them are dependent on each other, so after a while you can't understand anymore who is the spider and who is the butterfly. I thought it might be erotic to portray such a sticky relationship."
I guess it means that Claude caught Alois in his spider thread by killing him, but Alois did the same by "killing Claude" (because he knew Sebastian was gonna kill him) so he could bring him with him in his nirvana.
Then the interview with the producer went on (I thank Nayama for the translation): --It's the exact opposite of Sebastian and Ciel's unyielding relationship. It kind of reminds of a heterosexual relationship.
Okada - Yes, that is extremely subtle. Seb and Ciel are constantly rating each other. If one of them were to lose his value they would discard him right away, basically. For Claude and Alois it works the same, but indeed, it tends to feel like some kind of romance. To be sincere, maybe when I portray Alois I'm sympathizing with him from the point of view of a woman's feelings. Like, "It's painful, but yeah, you do end up clinging to him". I wanted to create a pitiable and wretched handsome boy, for once. I was writing the screenplay thinking that I would really wish for Alois to find happiness.
In short, I'm asking you to take all this elements in consideration and give me your opinion: did Claude have a change of heart and realized he and Alois are "dependent on each other" (as the producer said) and is now happy with Alois, or is he living an eternal of hell by the side of a kid he can't stand?

Sep 17, 2010 1:42 PM

EarlCiel

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I'll answer this when I don't have a headache and my head is twirling around and around.

Sep 17, 2010 1:48 PM

Astrid_

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Ok... I'm counting on it, don't worry XD you should take some rest now, istead of staring at the computer screen.

Sep 17, 2010 2:04 PM

EarlCiel

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After watching his death about 5 times, I will have to admit that he may have had a change in heart.

"If he made a ripple in the long, long lazy life of a demon,
then Alois Trancy's soul also was worth cracking open, per...haps..."

"Passion to insincerity, Lies to reality,
A stray dog into an Earl.
That is...the cy's butler"

With this, he may have had a change of heart, but it...cost Alois his life and Claude's life to make him change...I do believe Alois is obviously dependent on Claude,
but then how is Claude dependent on Alois?
As for the last part...I honestly don't know. I just need a lot of clarifications before I say something...

1) How is Claude dependent on Alois..?

2) maybe Claude was acknowledging Alois...he admited it, He admitted his errors.
Is this what a villian in shows always do..don't the confess?
It's rare to see a villan admit they are wrong, but I bet this is a question they left for us, just like they did last season...so no one really knows..o___o

/going to take a break and then after coming back, I will read my post and say,"WHAT THE HECK AM I BLABBERING ABOUT! I SOUND LIKE A DRUNKARD! /SLAPS FOREHEAD"

Sep 17, 2010 2:09 PM

EarlCiel

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"Passion to insincerity, Lies to reality,
A stray dog into an Earl.
That is...the cy's butler"

translates into >>
"Strong feelings and emotion into the quality of not being open or truthful.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true to the state of being actual or true.
Jim McCain into Alois Trancy.
That is the Trancy's butler."

translating into>>
Claude was not being truthful to his feelings and emotions and they turned into him not being open and truthful about his need for Alois (?)

EarlCielSep 17, 2010 2:13 PM

Sep 17, 2010 2:13 PM

EarlCiel

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Lol I'm trying to translate (decipher) his last few words.

Sep 17, 2010 2:14 PM

Astrid_

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EarlCiel said:
After watching his death about 5 times, I will have to admit that he may have had a change in heart.

"If he made a ripple in the long, long lazy life of a demon,
then Alois Trancy's soul also was worth cracking open, per...haps..."

"Passion to insincerity, Lies to reality,
A stray dog into an Earl.
That is...the cy's butler"

With this, he may have had a change of heart, but it...cost Alois his life and Claude's life to make him change...I do believe Alois is obviously dependent on Claude,
but then how is Claude dependent on Alois?
As for the last part...I honestly don't know. I just need a lot of clarifications before I say something...

1) How is Claude dependent on Alois..?

2) maybe Claude was acknowledging Alois...he admited it, He admitted his errors.
Is this what a villian in shows always do..don't the confess?
It's rare to see a villan admit they are wrong, but I bet this is a question they left for us, just like they did last season...so no one really knows..o___o

/going to take a break and then after coming back, I will read my post and say,"WHAT THE HECK AM I BLABBERING ABOUT! I SOUND LIKE A DRUNKARD! /SLAPS FOREHEAD"

Claude is dependent on Alois because he cannot get away from him. Even when he killed Alois, he needed his soul for something, and after Alois was dead, he found a way to come back, take control of Ciel's body, make Claude travel in a labyrinth, make him do it again when he gave the wrong answer, and then he orchestrated his death in order to imprison him in his nirvana, along with Luka and Hannah.
I think what Claude means about Alois "making a ripple in his life" is that Alois proved himself to be more than a common soul, because he revealed himself to be a great fighter when he wants something.
I personally would like to believe that Claude had a change of heart because it's been a whole season that I'm waiting for this sodding ClaudexAlois romance, but there are things that need to be clarified.

Sep 17, 2010 2:16 PM

Astrid_

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Sebastian said "As whose butler did you die?"
I think he was asking Claude if he was loyal to Alois or to Ciel.
EarlCiel, are you SURE he said "..cy butler"?

Astrid_Sep 17, 2010 2:19 PM

Sep 17, 2010 2:19 PM

EarlCiel

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Yeah, a LOTT of clarifications. I think it was smart for Alois to answer as he did.
Ciel asked him if he was satisfied, and Alois answers that he preferred not to know.
Our little Alois has become more and more independent. =) <33
lol

Sep 17, 2010 2:21 PM

#10

EarlCiel

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Astrid_ said:

EarlCiel, are you SURE he said "..cy butler"?

After re-watching it, I believe that's what he said. Unless you want me to re watch it
another 8 times. lol

Sep 17, 2010 2:25 PM

#11

EarlCiel

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EarlCiel said:

Astrid_ said:

EarlCiel, are you SURE he said "..cy butler"?

After re-watching it, I believe that's what he said. Unless you want me to re watch it
another 8 times. lol

NEVERRR MINDDDD. Lol must be me and my weird fantasies. I'm hearing things.
but I bet he meant to say Trancy's butler. After all, that is his 2nd most popular phrase, lol.

Sep 17, 2010 2:28 PM

#12

Astrid_

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EarlCiel said:
Yeah, a LOTT of clarifications. I think it was smart for Alois to answer as he did.
Ciel asked him if he was satisfied, and Alois answers that he preferred not to know.
Our little Alois has become more and more independent. =) <33
lol

Alois probably doesn't want bad karma to hit him so he prefers not to comment about things he thinks are simply impossibleXD but if Claude really had a change of heart, Alois must be happy.
What confuses me is that "love" Hannah talks about, the love that created the nirvana. I mean Claude must have feelings of love if his soul is there, right? But love for who?
If we really want to be positive, we may interpret things this way:
Claude said "passion to insincerity", meaning that he decided to pursue Ciel and suppressed his passion for Alois (that could also mean that what he was saying in the labyrinth was true, he did kill Alois both in order to obtain Ciel, and because of his passion, which he clearly wants to suppress because when he started talking about it, his eyes went red and then he started ranting about Ciel), then "lies into truth" meaning that he lied when he told Alois he wanted to devour him, but that then that feeling became real, his passion became real.
Also, he suppressed his feeling when he was dying, saying that he was dying in the name of Ciel's soul, but then Sebastian laughed and said "Don't make me laugh. You've always been controlled by Alois" (and this would also explain why the producers say in truth Claude is also dependent from Alois), meaning that Claude is only hiding the fact that the person he's really bond to is Alois, not Ciel.

Sep 17, 2010 2:29 PM

#13

Astrid_

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EarlCiel said:

Astrid_ said:

EarlCiel, are you SURE he said "..cy butler"?

After re-watching it, I believe that's what he said. Unless you want me to re watch it
another 8 times. lol

NEVERRR MINDDDD. Lol must be me and my weird fantasies. I'm hearing things.
but I bet he meant to say Trancy's butler. After all, that is his 2nd most popular phrase, lol.

what's the first one? XD
And it's IMPORTANT because it answers Sebastian's question "as whose butler did you die?" it means where Claude's loyalty lies.

Sep 17, 2010 2:32 PM

#14

EarlCiel

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Astrid_ said:

EarlCiel said:

Astrid_ said:

EarlCiel, are you SURE he said "..cy butler"?

After re-watching it, I believe that's what he said. Unless you want me to re watch it
another 8 times. lol

NEVERRR MINDDDD. Lol must be me and my weird fantasies. I'm hearing things.
but I bet he meant to say Trancy's butler. After all, that is his 2nd most popular phrase, lol.

what's the first one? XD

"Yes, Your Highness."

Sep 17, 2010 2:37 PM

#15

Astrid_

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"Yes your Highness, Yes your Highness, Yes your highness"
buhahah, no really, the only moment I felt sympathetic towards the demons was during that ridiculous maze with the little bunnies, the roses and the hearts. Alois was really just pulling their legs for fun XD

Sep 17, 2010 2:38 PM

#16

EarlCiel

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rofl, yeah

Sep 17, 2010 2:53 PM

#17

Astrid_

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I tried to think of why Alois didn't want to become a demon (this way he could have stayed with Claude for all eternity), but then I realized that if he did become a demon, Claude would have always had the chance to run away and decide to never acknowledge him. Alois orchestrated everything so that finally Claude died the way he wanted him to die, and this way he could "chain" Claude to his nirvana and never let him go. Also, he didn't want Claude to eat Ciel's soul because he's jealous.
Also, it seems that demons don't have feelings for each other, and Alois wanted Claude's love, and he can have it once Claude doesn't have the desire to devour souls anymore (meaning when his demon body dies).
He's getting pretty smart, I must say XD after all the entire ending was his fault. He was a bit harsh on Sebastian, I must say, but well... he never claimed to be a saint.
Though I know this is the best ending, I can't stop thinking that it would have been quite hot to see Claude and Alois as demons XD

Sep 18, 2010 6:52 AM

#18

EarlCiel

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Yes, also if Alois were a demon, he'd never have a chance to see Luca.
That's what he really wanted, a chance to be with Luca..the brother he never had a chance to protect. The brother that meant everything to him, so much that when he left the world, Alois was screwed...depressed...err...lost in the world.

Sep 18, 2010 6:55 AM

#19

EarlCiel

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Also, I'm guessing that Alois may have accepted the fact that Claude doesn't really care about him...perhaps that's why he preferred not to know when Ciel asked him?
Perhaps Alois thought to himself,"Well, if he's not going to like me as I am now, I'll drag him with me, and together with luca and hannah, we'll love each other there.."

Or something like that. Maybe Alois wanted to bring Claude with him so Claude could develop feelings for him. Alois didn't give up hope in having Claude love him, maybe he brought Claude with him and saw it as a chance, an opportunity?

Sep 18, 2010 7:07 AM

#20

Astrid_

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EarlCiel said:
Also, I'm guessing that Alois may have accepted the fact that Claude doesn't really care about him...perhaps that's why he preferred not to know when Ciel asked him?
Perhaps Alois thought to himself,"Well, if he's not going to like me as I am now, I'll drag him with me, and together with luca and hannah, we'll love each other there.."

Or something like that. Maybe Alois wanted to bring Claude with him so Claude could develop feelings for him. Alois didn't give up hope in having Claude love him, maybe he brought Claude with him and saw it as a chance, an opportunity?

Alois wanted Claude, and in the end Claude said that after all Alois is not so bad etc. so Alois brought Claude along in the nirvana. I mean Claude has no choice but to bring himself to love Alois because he's in his power. He's dead and he can't get out of the nirvana, so in short Alois simply said "Well, I've got Hannah and Luca as backup, so even if I argue with you, Claude, now I'm not alone, and Ciel is out of the way so you can't cheat, and you can't leave me so... yeah I rule" XDXDXD I guess this was what the producers meant when they said that it's difficult to decide who's the spider and who's the butterfly between Claude and Alois.
After all, now they are a better couple than Sebastian and Ciel, who always seemed so perfect. Claude is a soul now, not a demon, so he doesn't hold the grudges Sebastian does because he has not desire to eat souls anymore.
Really, after all the misery and the mess Alois went through, I really didn't expect him to end so well O.O

Sep 18, 2010 7:12 AM

#21

Principles

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The spider and the butterfly...first the butterfly was Alois..then it was Claude..then it was alois then claude then alois then claude, & now, Alois is the spider..and then it goes on.
Basically, this describes one complicated relationship, lol

Sep 18, 2010 7:36 AM

#22

EarlCiel

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Principles said:
The spider and the butterfly...first the butterfly was Alois..then it was Claude..then it was alois then claude then alois then claude, & now, Alois is the spider..and then it goes on.
Basically, this describes one complicated relationship, lol

Did you say complicated?
I couldn't agree any more that this describes their relationship.

Sep 18, 2010 7:40 AM

#23

Astrid_

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If "master and demons relationship" counselling existed, Claude and Alois would be the ones I'd send to do the therapy XD

Sep 18, 2010 7:47 AM

#24

kataru

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Only sebby heared Claude's last word, and based from this...

Live the life that you love, Love the life that you live...
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. - The Buddha

Sep 18, 2010 7:51 AM

#25

Astrid_

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kataru said:
Only sebby heared Claude's last word, and based from this...

Yes he had to say Trancy because come on, if he said "I am the Phantomhive butler" to SEBASTIAN it means he wanted to be laughed at in his last moment XD

Sep 19, 2010 4:27 PM

#26

sugarspankhorn

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What I keep thinking back to is the ring on Hannah's finger. Was that Trancy's ring, or did it have some sort of deeper meaning? I d'know.

Though I really do think that in the end Claude admited his feelings for Alois, that's gotta be what Hannah meant by "he finally acknowledged you". Cuz honestly, what else COULD it mean? Ya, I thought so.

Sep 19, 2010 4:29 PM

#27

sugarspankhorn

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Oh, I forgot to mention how in his last moments, Claude asked for his glasses. That's gotta mean something

Sep 20, 2010 1:55 PM

#28

EarlCiel

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HimekaLeafNinja said:

Though I really do think that in the end Claude admited his feelings for Alois, that's gotta be what Hannah meant by "he finally acknowledged you". Cuz honestly, what else COULD it mean? Ya, I thought so.

Well, technically..he basically "gave in" and "admitted" to Alois..
it doesn't necessarily mean he admitted his feelings, maybe he wast just acknowledging Alois' cleverness or something along those lines...
but he could have admitted his feelings. Who knows?

As for him asking for his glasses...perhaps he wanted to die the way Alois seems him, as a Trancy butler..since he does take of his glasses when he's "technically" in demon-mode (if you know what I meannn ->creepy pink glow in eyes)...
perhaps..perhaps...

Sep 20, 2010 2:47 PM

#29

Astrid_

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EarlCiel said:

I think it would have been a bit OOC if he suddenly threw himself at Alois' feet and proclaimed that Alois was the only one capable to scratch the surface of the boring life of a demon and go deep inside, and for this he realized he's meant to stay with Alois forever after his death and wants to put his glasses on because for him it's a honour to die as Alois' butler (my jaw would have dropped to the floor if they'd made a scene like this). I mean... in a fashion Claude DID say these things, but in a different way.
It would have been very un-Kuroshitsuji-like to make this kind of scene because Kuroshitsuji is all about subtetly. The shounen ai fanservice, the romantic relationships, everything is very subtle. So this "Claude aknowledged Alois" and all the correlated comments from Claude about Alois being worthy etc. are a way to express the above mentioned sentiments in a Kuroshitsujiesque way.

Sep 20, 2010 2:52 PM

#30

Astrid_

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And in the end this means that Alois and Claude work better than Ciel and Sebastian, because if Claude really did have a change of heart, it means that he's now happy to be with Alois even if he's not a demon anymore and will not eat Alois' soul, while Sebastian, who ranted about Ciel's many charms for two entire seasons, now can't stand to look at him because Ciel will never be his meal.
The way things turn around...

Astrid_Sep 20, 2010 3:01 PM

Sep 20, 2010 4:29 PM

#31

Kannei

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Astrid_ said:

kataru said:
Only sebby heared Claude's last word, and based from this...

Yes he had to say Trancy because come on, if he said "I am the Phantomhive butler" to SEBASTIAN it means he wanted to be laughed at in his last moment XD

he died the trancy butler i knew it

[T.C.O

Sep 20, 2010 8:33 PM

#32

vampiresselena

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I don't think his feelings really changed. I think even at the end he'd prefer Ciel's soul to Alois but I believe those last words of his were just him giving Kudos to Alois for what he had accomplished (Which was totally fucking everyone over).

He obviously underestimated Alois and what he was capable of even after death. So he was kind of like "wow I can't believe that kid fucked up my plans.Kudos to him." I don't see that as his feelings really changing about Alois nor him really regretting his decisions nor really loving Alois in the way Alois wanted.

That's just my opinion though, it probably doesn't help that I really just don't like Alois and I don't blame Claude for going after Ciel after the pitiful failure of a Master Alois became.

Sep 21, 2010 4:29 AM

#33

Astrid_

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But what made me wonder was the fact that Hannah said "the love of the FOUR of us will create an eternal nirvana".
It means that the nirvana was built on Claude's love too, but it can't refer to his love for Ciel, because his love imprisoned him with Alois for all eternity.
Hey, I'm not saying I'm sure he had a change of heart, I'm only saying that I don't know how else his love, along with the others', may have created the nirvana.

Sep 21, 2010 4:39 AM

#34

Astrid_

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vampiresselena said:
I don't think his feelings really changed. I think even at the end he'd prefer Ciel's soul to Alois but I believe those last words of his were just him giving Kudos to Alois for what he had accomplished (Which was totally fucking everyone over).

He obviously underestimated Alois and what he was capable of even after death. So he was kind of like "wow I can't believe that kid fucked up my plans.Kudos to him." I don't see that as his feelings really changing about Alois nor him really regretting his decisions nor really loving Alois in the way Alois wanted.

That's just my opinion though, it probably doesn't help that I really just don't like Alois and I don't blame Claude for going after Ciel after the pitiful failure of a Master Alois became.

Believe me, I understand what you mean. Though I love Alois, I understand why people may prefer Ciel to him.
Because Ciel is more straightforward and he resembles an adult, while Alois is still a child.
But I like Alois because he's not aloof like Ciel. Such an emotional character is expected to have absolutely no power if compared to people who can reason straight, and Ciel and Sebastian always despised "love" and people who craved for it.
I think it's incredible that a person like Alois, who has such intense feelings and for this is despised by both Ciel and Sebastian, would be the one to f*** up their lives for all eternity. Both Ciel and Sebastian (and also Claude) certainly learnt a lesson.

Sep 25, 2010 11:44 PM

#35

FenixDragon43

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no. ;]

Sep 26, 2010 11:54 AM

#36

Inukko

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Mind you, I don't think he had any.
Seriously.. it all was a game to a Demon. :|

''Even if your throne crumbles and your shiny crown turns to rust. Even if the bodies pile up endlessly. Above the bottomless piles of corpses beside you as you lay softly down I will be, until I hear the words, check mate'' Sebastian Michaelis.

Sep 29, 2010 4:46 PM

#37

EarlCiel

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Astrid_ said:

But I like Alois because he's not aloof like Ciel. Such an emotional character is expected to have absolutely no power if compared to people who can reason straight, and Ciel and Sebastian always despised "love" and people who craved for it.
I think it's incredible that a person like Alois, who has such intense feelings and for this is despised by both Ciel and Sebastian, would be the one to f*** up their lives for all eternity. Both Ciel and Sebastian (and also Claude) certainly learnt a lesson.

100% agreed.
I don't know what the heck Claude and Sebastian saw in Ciel that made him more superior than Alois. Alois is so emotional, so real. You usually don't see boys showing that side of them, because to them it may seem like a weakness.
Yet this boy had a strong desire for love, you usually see girls day dreaming about love and doing anything for love.

Sep 30, 2010 5:04 AM

#38

Astrid_

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EarlCiel said:

In her blog, Yana Toboso said that many magazines wrote that Alois has a very feminine personality and that she agrees. Also, there is an interview with Mari Okada, the series composer, in which she says she sympathizes with Alois as a woman and that his relationship with Claude resembles a heterosexual relationship. Here I quote the translation:

"But this time, with Claude and Alois, I wanted to create characters who lacked that restraint, and suddenly all the things I had been suppressing so far overflowed (LOL). It actually started from the pun "kumoshitsuji" [note: kuroshitsuji=black butler, kumoshitsuji=spider butler], but the two of them are dependent on each other, so after a while you can't understand anymore who is the spider and who is the butterfly. I thought it might be erotic to portray such a sticky relationship.
--It's the exact opposite of Sebastian and Ciel's unyielding relationship. It kind of reminds of a heterosexual relationship.
Okada - Yes, that is extremely subtle. Seb and Ciel are constantly rating each other. If one of them were to lose his value they would discard him right away, basically. For Claude and Alois it works the same, but indeed, it tends to feel like some kind of romance. To be sincere, maybe when I portray Alois I'm sympathizing with him from the point of view of a woman's feelings. Like, "It's painful, but yeah, you do end up clinging to him" (LOL). I wanted to create a pitiable and wretched handsome boy, for once. I was writing the screenplay thinking that I would really wish for Alois to find happiness."

So yeah, they wanted to create a girly!character with Alois, and that's why he shows his emotions. But the other Kuroshitsuji characters seem to think that if you've got emotions, you're weak. I love the way Alois proves them wrong, because he's the one that triumphs in the end.

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