| I have had my problems with the way I thought this DB Guidelines was going to go but I want to congratulate all those involved in producing this. Its simple yet detailed enough. While I dont love the entire thing, I feel you guys listened to many of the concerns brought up recently and gave us something that is extremely fair. So good job all around. Thanks for your hard work. |
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| great job for all of your hard work everyone...... ^w^ |
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| There should be a rule against people making recommendations that already exist. If someone has already recommended that if you like X you might like Y, the next person shouldn't make the same damn recommendation for X and Y, especially if he/she is not bringing anything new to the table. |
| Why not? If I see the same recommendation-combination a lot, then I think it might be worth checking out if many people share those thoughts. I might check out a recommendation that's supported by many users rather than one done by just 2 users. |
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| I'm not sure if this had/has anything to do with the recent guidelines updates, but there's something I have a bit of a complaint about. Two manga entries: • Blame Gakuen! And So On — This used to be multiple different entries. Each of these one-shots were originally publish separately, then later published in a collection, AFAIK. Until recently they were listen by their separate entries. Why was this consolidated? I don't see anything in the M.D.G. about consolidating one-shots when they're released later in a tankoubon. This just makes it harder to keep track of which ones I've read, because which chapter is #1? #2? etc. • Robot — I also came across the entry for this one. I'm pretty sure this is a periodical, with some ongoing stories, some one-shots, all by different authors. I think each story should get its own entry, even though they are originally published together in each issue. We don't have a WSJ entry, do we? Why should we have a single Robot entry? Oh, and I'm also a little concerned with Manga Guidelines # 4.c.3: chapter numbering. Differently-numbered chapters are included in the total count? This will very likely get confusing, as '.5' chapters will gradually create differences between MAL's chapter count and the mangaka's. Then there's the task of going back into these 250+ chapter series and counting up all the extra chapters, and adding them in. It just seems backwards to me. Instead I suggest having a ' — extras' entry, eg "Naruto - Extra Chapters." |
脱ぎません！_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .  |
freedoleen said: @Mr_Panda As you failed to explain, even in your reply to me, what you meant by "create", I can only assume you meant what I iterated in my post. In which case, yes I mean "influenced". & a clarification offreedoleen said: Wrong. Anime isn't just an animation, is it. By creating I mean producing from scratch and that includes: directing, writing the script, planning, drawing the storyboard, producing the sound and music, planning, editing and much, much more (screenshot of the process of adding anime staff on MAL). And yes, of course also all jobs animators do. If anime is influenced by a Western work it solely means that the original work/concept isn't from Japan. However, please notice the difference between the original work and the actual work that needs to be done by the staff working on the anime. It's not like Shakespeare wrote the dialogues for Romeo x Juliet. Hence the "influenced" part. Of course not the whole staff has to be Japanese to see their work as an anime. But if all major work is done in USA, except for the jobs only animators do, it's more like the U.S. company hires the Japanese animators to animate the show for them. Credits of The Hobbit. Please notice that the Japanese names appear only (with one exception) beside the jobs related to animating. If I understand your posts correctly then your saying IGPX is not Anime because it was co-produced simultaneously by Cartoon Network (USA) and Production I.G (Japan). The Japanese created it but it was heavily influenced by American company's. The story was tailored to suit Cartoon Network's demands. We have several other micro series that fall into this mold. For example animatrix and the batman shorts all where written by Japanese but collaborated with westerners in the process of making them. Their anime no matter how you look at it but in your description and in the rules they would not be considered as such because westerners dabbled their hands in the process. I think the new rules for filtering out this type of stuff is wrong if the above is true. I also find it hypocritical that MAL would accept Korean and Chinese animation and consider it Anime, yet when an English company and a Japanese company collaborate it's not considered anime. Just because China and Korea are Asian doesn't mean it should be called anime lol. If your gonna allow China and Korea's animation to be labeled as Anime then you best be accepting other country's animation that fits the same visual mold as well. |
^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
freedoleen said: @DeathfireD: Please notice that I haven't said that anime cannot be heavily influenced by Western works/co-produced with a Western company. That's completely fine, as long as all the major work like directing, script etc. wasn't entirely done in US (with only animation being made in Japan) and the show was released in Japan. So both IGPX seasons stay, same with Animatrix and Batman. However, I'm unable to confirm if a said micro series was released in Japan. If it wasn't, it will be removed. If with that said you think that some questionable entries are still present in our database, I encourage you to report them. We will look into each case. Just because China and Korea are Asian doesn't mean it should be called anime lol. If your gonna allow China and Korea's animation to be labeled as Anime then you best be accepting other country's animation that fits the same visual mold as well. If you read all my replies to Mr_Panda you'll see that we don't actually think that Korean/Chinese animation is anime. And we also have manhwa and manhua in the manga database. That's good to hear. However I'll most likely never report questionable anime since I find anything that fits the visual mold, Anime. Regardless of where it was made, as long as the Japanese played some part in the making it it's anime in my eyes. |
| ^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
| i agree with shadow alex and i want to add saying you can't call something that looks like anime, anime that is probably made with the same programs, and could be even drawn by the japs for all we know, anime just cause it's not made in japan is like saying that if a japanese pop band like hey say 7 recorded an ablum it let's say LA but still sung in japanese and it was aimed at the japanese, you couldn't call japanese pop music cause it was made in LA not japan. Besides the non knowing outsiders and retailers still call teen titans and avatar, etc, anime, don't they? thats why you find it under anime in the rental and dvds stores, not under kids/family. Also dosen't freedom of speak allows us to call it what ever we want? anime is a world art from even although 85% is made in japan, i would still think that the studios and companyies outside of japan that make anime would call them anime. you could probably translate it into japanese and sit an okatu in front of it and he'll probably say thats anime until we tell him otherwise. okay after reading all comments i get the just and thanks for freedorleen for saying this. You should treat MAL as a resource for the animation created in Japan/Korea/China and released for their respective markets. Nothing more, nothing less. it makes it understandable from his point of veiw. after reading mr panda, mask guy and the face on the apple comments tells me my above points have all ready been made at least once although i still have a few questions. 1 what do we call these animes if we can't call them animes and don't say cartoons?(look up the def) 2 what do we call people who insult us and say that we are wrong? are they pureists,leaderists,ideaists,or racists. 3 why is the transfroms movie in the database? Mod edit: Please don't double post. Use the edit link if you want to add something to your previous post. |
BourskMay 23, 2010 4:40 PM
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| 1) You can call it whatever you want. As far as MAL is concerned they are works that aren't allowed in the database. 2) You don't call them anything. You're free to believe what you want to believe, just as those other people. If you don't agree, you can either try to hold an intelligent and civil discussion or just click away. I suggest you do the latter. 3) While transformers were aired in the west, a lot was animated in Japan. I would assume that this is the case here as well. The only two transformers movies I can find with a quick search are these two: http://myanimelist.net/anime/2265/Transformers_the_Movie:_Mokushiroku_Matrix_yo_Eien_ni http://myanimelist.net/anime/5289/Beast_Wars_Second:_LioConvoy_in_Imminent_Danger! I can't comment on the latter, but the former was animated by Toei, so that's legit for sure. I'm sure a DB mod will come back to you on the latter one if you post it in a thread over here: http://myanimelist.net/forum/index.php?subboard=2 |
| your sorry for sounding like i'm starting a war, i sort of said before i understand where your coming from with what you said earlyier. You should treat MAL as a resource for the animation created in Japan/Korea/China and released for their respective markets. Nothing more, nothing less. which made this website understandable. we'll if to find a website that is exactly like this site that allows to add anime-influenced animation to our anime lists we'll be happy. but following your quote wasn't the 1987 transforms movie made for the west the transforms headmasters series wasn't made in japan for jap until 9?. and listening to the interveiws on the dvd the west redid the sound blind but if the japs did do the animetion it would explain why they did it blind. and thanks to boursk for sorting out my post. but this just struck me if we bought a tv channel out in japan and started showing anime-infu anime on it, when they would if to consider giving them a page won't they? |
UFSmanMay 24, 2010 3:07 PM
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| Thanks to the revival of this topic, I've spent most of the day re-re-researching opinions on the definition(s) of anime. And in doing so, I came across Peepo Choo. Written and illustrated by an American, published in Japan alongside other manga. Definitely unusual, but food for thought. Not that the MAL policy should change, at least for now. |
| 脱ぎません！_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . |
| but disney movies are made in usa aren't they? well the old ones, princess and the frog maybe a jap. How about we prouduce or make a company, buy the rights and when put these animes on dvds to sell in those markets would that make them animes or only the ones that were made in japan animes? |
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| hey! I'm back guys!Haven't been active on the forums for some time. Glad to talk to you all again. Thanks UFSman for reminding me of this thread! So for: 1. We basically all agree that we don't agree on what should and what shouldn't be considered anime, BUT, this discussion has been productive in that the purpose of this social cataloging application - mal.net - has been made clearer. For more info on social cataloging: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cataloging_application 2. Just to toss some fuel on the fire: what about Incarnate (yeah, the Bleach plagia... , oops..... simmonsing, as it is now called)? 3. Thanks JadeMatrix, the case you mentioned really is food for thought. It attempts to blur the line. 4. I am glad there are people like this willing to debate stuff and not interested only in shallow "most moe character in anime x" style of threads. I remember being seen as eccentric (read: almost troll) for why I would ever think of this when I first tried to raise this argument on some other forum. |
alexvodaMay 31, 2010 3:06 PM
alexvoda said: Incarnate is an OEL (Original English Language), no doubt about it. It's not manga and it never will be.It has been brought to my attention that Incarnate is a comic and not OEL, since it's not marketed as manga. Thanks shin! ^^2. Just to toss some fuel on the fire: what about Incarnate (yeah, the Bleach plagia... , oops..... simmonsing, as it is now called)? freedoleen said: I think there's an entry in the DB where some French? animation company decided to uproot and move to Japan and start cooperating with Japanese to make anime. It think at the heart of the matter, to make anime, you're pretty much going to have to cooperate with the Japanese, for voice work, animators, script, etc. And then there's a culture gap, I wouldn't really expect a foreign "anime" to be very appealing to the Japanese and thus they probably need some Japanese input to make it more profitable. Most companies simply don't bother with this and aim global, violating the "for Japanese" part of the definition, making the discussing mostly moot.By our definition anime = animation made by Japanese for Japanese. So no, we cannot produce an anime. On the other hand, to make a manga, all you have to know is how to draw and write Japanese. There's plenty of non-Japanese who can do both so that's the reason for the discrepancy between the two databases. The manga DB defines by intended audience, not country of origin. If there's ever a pure non-Japanese anime, i.e. an animation mostly made by non-Japanese that's mainly targeted at Japan, then we might have to rethink the definition. |
kuroshiroiJun 1, 2010 10:50 AM
kuroshiroi said: Oban Star Racers, perhaps? That series gets brought up in every 'what is anime' discussion.freedoleen said: I think there's an entry in the DB where some French? animation company decided to uproot and move to Japan and start cooperating with Japanese to make anime.By our definition anime = animation made by Japanese for Japanese. So no, we cannot produce an anime. |
| 脱ぎません！_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . |
| Yes, exactly. Definitely an interesting case but still anime, at least going by our definition. Also the closest thing to a non-Japanese anime I know of. |
| BTW can any of the moderators or admins provide a list with all of the entries that have been deleted? And are they deleted for good, no way to recover, or are they still in some database backup somewhere? I would really like to check that list out. There may be interesting things to watch on that list too. |
alexvoda said: BTW can any of the moderators or admins provide a list with all of the entries that have been deleted? And are they deleted for good, no way to recover, or are they still in some database backup somewhere? I would really like to check that list out. There may be interesting things to watch on that list too. For manga, here's the original sweep. After that, you have to look at all the posts individually for things that "don't meet the db guidelines." They are not coming back and are gone for good. |
shinkeikaku said: alexvoda said: ..... For manga, here's the original sweep. After that, you have to look at all the posts individually for things that "don't meet the db guidelines." They are not coming back and are gone for good. I didn't mean if they might be coming back. It's just that I know many companies keep everything in the databases for at least 6 months or something(like Google and Microsoft and Facebook do with their online services).Even if it is deleted and not coming back it still is somewhere in the archives or the logs of the database.This really was more of a question about the architecture of the database than anything else. But never mind. I guess the situation is the same for anime. However, it would have been nice to have two nice and updated lists on this matter. Also for a bit more fuel on the fire(though i don't think there is anyone who doesn't consider them anime, I'm just playing devil's advocate): What about Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust - originally made in English, then translated Back into Japanese. And what about Trigun Badlands Rumble - screened first in the US because it is much more popular in the US than Japan. Arguably this can be considered a shift in the target population. |
| And I also meant the entries are gone for good as far as I know by now. The last part is to emphasize that there is no need to keep them anyway--they aren't coming back. alexvoda said: I guess the situation is the same for anime. However, it would have been nice to have two nice and updated lists on this matter. Why would we waste the time and effort tracking stuff (beyond what we already do!) that we already deemed doesn't belong here? It takes more than enough time processing the stuff that does belong. |
shinkeikaku said: Why would we waste the time and effort tracking stuff (beyond what we already do!) that we already deemed doesn't belong here? It takes more than enough time processing the stuff that does belong. Well it is just my personal philosophy that all information should be kept in one form or another just for the sake of it and that it has value even if it is outdated. Maybe because this doesn't usually happen many things had to be REdiscovered after they have been forgotten throughout history. Guess you could call it the archiving mania. |
| The title information is kept in that denial thread if it really needs to be rediscovered. So someone else can easily find more info if they really want to while we keep our current info and archives that belong separated. With the manga ids having passed 20,000 recently, we have our archiving mania fulfilled elsewhere. |
freedoleen said: I thought we're pretty clear about this in the anime guidelines after the update in January, was I wrong? Nah. As I stated earlier this discussion was productive as it made thing clearer. I was just trying to keep the discussion active as it was resurrected by UFSman. As I said, I was just playing devil's advocate. Ehh.. guess everything has to end at some point. /thread ?? P.S.: Sorry. My bad. During the hiatus of this discussion I forgot about the first post with the links to the lists. |
alexvodaJun 2, 2010 10:34 AM
| what about birdy the mighty decoder? seen here in this awsome amv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QI8f8Pm1xg |
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| The reason why you won't find it is because you call it 'Decoder' when it's 'Decode', UFSman. http://myanimelist.net/anime.php?q=birdy |
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My Messages said: Message Sent from kuroshiroi 01-20-10, 4:27 PM Anime Submission Denied Your submission for the anime: Kowarekake no Orgel has been denied by a moderator. Reason: We don't list doujin/independent anime in our database (unless they meet certain conditions), sorry. For further explanation, please read this. Eh... http://myanimelist.net/anime/9213/Kowarekake_no_Orgel and... http://myanimelist.net/anime/9265/Touhou_Niji_Sousaku_Doujin_Anime_-_Musou_Kakyou/ oO |
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| Anime pages are generated regardless if they were approved or not. Touhou is gone now. Orgel finally got in because it received a theatrical release. |
| So that is the so called "certain conditions" ? Because its still about the version from the comiket... So where will the theatrical release be? Its not added yet. |
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freedoleen said: Have you read the anime db guidelines you were linked to by kuroshiroi? "Certain conditions" are mentioned there. Yes, but I wasn't totaly sure about it, thats why I asked. freedoleen said: Theatrical release of Orgel will be basically a director's cut of the OVA, with several additional minutes. We have yet to decide if we'll add the movie separately (most likely we will). But since they're both essentially the same thing, OVA deserves to be mentioned in the database. I see...That's what i wanted to read. |
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| i agree with Mr_Panda the guidelines are absurd. Plus OEL, Manhwa, and Chinese/Korean anime, have no place here. |
| okay i want to change question why do you take down suff like Dramacon Manga and nightschool page, you had them up here before chirstmas and when someone told me that he couldn't find them on here it took me ages to fine him another site, anyway why did you take it down you have other oel up here like van von hunter form tokyopop did someone bleach copyright or something? Also what is an OEL anyway? Also does anyone know of a games website like i mentioned earlyier? |
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| An announcement about recent revisions to the guidelines can be found here. As such, thread locked. |
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