But Wild Arms is both. |
 Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
 COME ON Y'ALL. LET'S HAVE A WESTERN RPG THREAD. YEEHAW. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| I'll just wait a while then. Because I know MAL wants to talk about how awesome Wild Arms is.:') |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| Never played it. |
TurnipKing said: Never played it. You should be ashamed, pilgrim. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
ukonkivi said: No I shouldn't. Was busy playing good games on my PS1. Like Tekken 3 and Medievil.TurnipKing said: Never played it. You should be ashamed, pilgrim. |
| Clearly you have not played good games yet. (Even though I like those) |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| Medievil is the greatest PS1 title of all time. Why did my disc have to break? Why?! T_T |
Schezar said: I love it. |
 ~Vive La Miémorrina~ Play Lolita Caramel | Admire My Artworks Follow Me On Twitter | Read My Drawing Blog |
| tis okay |
| Only played 3. But it was quite nice. If it manages to evade so many of the awful old JRPG cliches like it did, it gets a bunch of bonus points from me. |
| Wild ARMs 2 was the best and will always be the best. |
| The first Wild ARMs was the first game I bought for my PSX and I enjoyed it, but I somehow doubt it holds up today. If anything, some of the music might be nice. I played a bit of 2 and it was alright, but nothing special. I might play the original again, but the sequels don't appeal to me. If I really want to immerse myself in a Western atmosphere there are better things to play... These are the only jRPGs I have any desire to play anymore: FFVI, Earthbound (which has enough "Eastern + Western" all by itself), Chrono Trigger, FFVII (only until I leave Midgar), Xenogears, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Chrono Cross, Valkyrie Profile, Skies of Arcadia (if only its battle system were a bit swifter), Dragon Quarter, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, Persona 4, Mother 3, and maybe a few others. I would like to try FFVIII with the Squall is dead theory in mind... The idea that this could potentially flip every cheesy moment on its head as a critique of the player via a character like Squall, suggesting it's all his fantastically self-indulgent dream -- that excites me. |
zenoslimeJun 14, 2010 7:15 AM
antitype said: Squall is dead That made my day. People these days. Wow. :o |
| The Wild Arms series is ok and has a few WTF moments, it's better than Lunar and Star Ocean but not as good as Final Fantasy, Chrono Series, and Suikoden series. |
 |
antitype said: Wow. And here I thought Ultimecia = Rinoa theory made the game more awesome.Squall is dead Seriously though, how fucking awesome would it be if they actually pulled a stunt like this in the next FF? Like the Evangelion of videogames or something. |
| <3 Wild Arms. Though for my money the original two were the best ones, and then seconded by Wild Arms 5. The stories always remained solid in all of them, but the gameplay really shined in the ones I mentioned. Didn't really care for the "XF" version. |
 |
Baman said: antitype said: Wow. And here I thought Ultimecia = Rinoa theory made the game more awesome.Squall is dead Seriously though, how fucking awesome would it be if they actually pulled a stunt like this in the next FF? Like the Evangelion of videogames or something. Well, Xenogears is already the Evangelion of videogames, more or less. If you just mean some kind of 4th-wall-breaking mindfuck, then we have plenty of those as well... Still, I like the idea the the "Squall is dead" perspective was intentionally implemented, and just subtle enough that it took people over a decade to figure it out -- mostly because people who play games like this and actually think about them are usually fans, and this theory subverts the whole fan-wank mentality. You know? Mopey loner goth dude gets impaled and in his moment of death experiences everything he wishes for. Even the title of Final Fantasy takes on renewed meaning: the dying dream of the introvert. Awesome. |
zenoslimeJun 14, 2010 12:13 PM
| Western meets shounen? do want. |
| If the Squall theory is true, while it does improve some things about the story or at least the pacing of which mysteries in the plot become resolved, it certainly leaves Final Fantasy VIII with a lack of resolution that I wouldn't much prefer. I do think that such thoughts, while a bit of a downer, could improve some of the areas post-disc one that many people would find lame. I do agree that the post-disc one storytelling isn't exactly very consistent or well thought out in my opinion. I mean, it is okay in many ways, it's certainly not horrible, but I think there were a lot better devices and developments that could have been used. It feels forced sometimes. And even though of this, I've been called a Final Fantasy VII fanboy before for bashing on it when in many instances I really enjoy the game. And I'm always not quite sure how to explain away some of the discussions of this nature, and so this article really explained for me a lot of the contentions with the game I often didn't know quite how to put into words. And some of the things like Ultimecia's words actually become deep instead of just wanting to look deep and creepy for the sake of a boss fight. When I see a trippy ending or things such as I have seen, I always want to assume that there's something actually bizarre and intricate behind it. So whether it's true or not, I think that theory will be a bit in my mind as I play the game again. Not enough to give me a downer, but it'll be on my mind. Just enough to make it more mysterious and therefor more fun. The Moombas part is just going for the comical. It's not so odd as it's just too much of an, in my opinion, tactless out of nowhere shounen trope about idiotic courage. I seriously got Game Over on my first try for cowardice because I thought Squall's thing was to be a cold collected logical thinker and not some hot-blooded idiotic luck persevering guy like Zell. And I don't think the beginning of the second disc on general was a very good way to resolve the conflict of the first disc. I always tend to hate it when they randomly pull a "you can't win" arbitrary situation in RPGs, as it messes with the mechanics RPG game which ought to be integrated better with the story(not to mention it often shakes you out of suspension of disbelief for a while), much less when they do it badly. And Final Fantasy VIII did it badly, like of all the ways I could think of to handle the situation before the Sorceress battle, that event completely shook you out of the general feeling of the story before that. It's just a bad situation to set that series of transitional events, and a lot of the areas are annoying, you get stuck in a long corridor escape for a while just as things in the game at the end of the first disc were just getting interesting. I always loathe popping in the second disc when the time comes. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| I think that a few people were actually speculating that that I know in real life but didn't quite understand that that was what they were getting at. But that it's just conclusively reached getting onto the internet now. I think it's something that was maybe just a little bit on some of our minds since the beginning, in some subconscious form or fashion, which would especially make sense if this theory was true. My friends' claims may not have been exact and concrete as this theory, but it was definitely something along the lines similar sometimes. I always for one did wonder how and why Squall lived through that disc one event, which was worse than what happened to Aeris. Even after shrugging it off after the next discs, but just got on with the game. It would be nice though if instead of this conclusion though, there was actually some resolution instead of just some "bad end". |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| This thread is supposed to be about Wild Arms, I am going to talk about Wild Arms again.:/ |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| I don't mind the "bad end" and that's a reaction I'd expect a fan to have. By "fan" I mean someone who needs some kind of emotional reinforcement from the work in question. I usually prefer to take something more meaningful away from things (or at least something pulpy and entertaining without being terrible), and if Squall dies at the end of disc one it makes FFVIII immensely more meaningful, instead of mawkishly vapid. Though still pretty maudlin. I think it's more enjoyable viewed as a nihilistic prank. Anyway, carry on... Wild ARMs, etc. |
| Horse battles and vehicle battles fuck yes. That was one of the main things that made me love 3 so much. Too bad there weren't very much of the air and sea(sand) battles. |
| I guess no one here has ever read FF8's Ultimania. Just get over it. FF8 is a lame love story with bad storytelling. |
BUTTHURT said: I guess no one here gives a shit about Ultimania. Just get over it. |
| canon>stupid fan fiction |
BUTTHURT said: But the canon in question is the game. And if the game leaves things open to interpretation...canon>stupid fan fiction Something added in a strategy guide that hardly anyone reads anyways obviously isn't vital o the story. |
BUTTHURT said: canon>stupid fan fiction See, the fun idea here is that this isn't actually fanfiction at all, shitforbrains. Pay attention. Anyway, Western-inspired jRPGs should be full of people who look like Jessiah Black.  |
antitype said: BUTTHURT said: canon>stupid fan fiction See, the fun idea here is that this isn't actually fanfiction at all, shitforbrains. Pay attention.  It seems that the creators of this theory were just attempting to find a reason to validate a story that, in certain areas, was poorly written and contained plotholes. Am I to assume that ever badly executed story I read is, in fact, not badly written but simply an alternate view of reality? If the plot of a novel or a movie is terrible, should I begin considering that what I am actually reading or viewing is actually some type of non-linear world, i.e., a dream, nightmare, vision, etc.? That is absurd. Why can't a poorly executed story be just that? The great discoveries of science and philosophy may, at time, required a more creative point of view, but those views were still grounded in what is empirical, observable and rational. |
| They weren't "attempting to find" anything -- they just happened to find that that was the best possible (i.e. most rational) explanation for the unclear result of Squall's injury at the end of disc one and the way the story shifted dramatically from there on. Seems pretty sensible to me, while you stubbornly cling to the more commonly appreciated view that it's just a poorly written romance blending sci-fi and shoujo. They haven't even ruled out the possibility that this is still the case, but as Baman said it appears to be quite readily open to interpretation -- if you'll just take a moment to use your brain instead of reacting like a typical fan. Butthurt: you, obviously. Why else are you so bent out of shape over what others think of FFVIII? |
| Just go and read the Ultimania written by Nojima himself. It clearly explains that this theory is nothing but a LIE. |
BUTTHURT said: It seems that the creators of this theory were just attempting to find a reason to validate a story that, in certain areas, was poorly written and contained plotholes. Am I to assume that ever badly executed story I read is, in fact, not badly written but simply an alternate view of reality? If the plot of a novel or a movie is terrible, should I begin considering that what I am actually reading or viewing is actually some type of non-linear world, i.e., a dream, nightmare, vision, etc.? That is absurd. Why can't a poorly executed story be just that? The great discoveries of science and philosophy may, at time, required a more creative point of view, but those views were still grounded in what is empirical, observable and rational. The thing is, though, that these people actually have analyzed and made a basis for this theory. And the truth is, FFVIII does actually allow these things to be speculated. You can't take a shitty movie like, say, Avatar and make some bullshit theory about being "all a dream" without some basis to this theory. Though I can't entirely disagree with you - I find this to be a shitty excuse for writing more than anything. I guess you can like to think that it means something on a spiritual level, but nothing is shown to have any ground for a legitimate truth. To me it's just bad writing. |
TurnipKing said: I thought it was final fantasy 7?Medievil is the greatest PS1 title of all time. Why did my disc have to break? Why?! T_T |
 |
SkyCrawler said: TurnipKing said: I thought it was final fantasy 7?Medievil is the greatest PS1 title of all time. Why did my disc have to break? Why?! T_T Nah. Xenogears, actually. |
DrewTheDude said: BUTTHURT said: It seems that the creators of this theory were just attempting to find a reason to validate a story that, in certain areas, was poorly written and contained plotholes. Am I to assume that ever badly executed story I read is, in fact, not badly written but simply an alternate view of reality? If the plot of a novel or a movie is terrible, should I begin considering that what I am actually reading or viewing is actually some type of non-linear world, i.e., a dream, nightmare, vision, etc.? That is absurd. Why can't a poorly executed story be just that? The great discoveries of science and philosophy may, at time, required a more creative point of view, but those views were still grounded in what is empirical, observable and rational. The thing is, though, that these people actually have analyzed and made a basis for this theory. No, that's not what it means to theorize. You don't draw an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere and try to twist meanings within the game to support it. You interpret actual events, not drawing an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere. Here's my favorite poorly made-up theory that I always throw against theories like this. Zell is constantly annoyed about not having hotdogs from the cafeteria. My theory is that that annoyance develops into hatred. Hatred against Garden. Hatred against all SeeD. He has knowledge of how a sorceress' powers are passed down. So he kills Rinoa and inherits her powers. And we know that sorceress powers changes your body. So in the same way Adel becomes masculine, Zell starts becoming feminine. The tattoo on his face changes shape to resemble the marks on Ultimecia's face. And we know that Zell knows about Adel's seal, so he seals himself till the future when he can hatch his plan to get revenge on SeeD. We know that he has used GF, so it's likely that he forgot she was ever Zell. That's why Ultimecia asks you to reflect on your childhood. She doesn't remember hers. But she knows to draw Griever from Squall because he was the one who asked him for the ring. So there, my theory is that Zell is Ultimecia. I used evidence from the game too. |
BUTTHURT said: DrewTheDude said: BUTTHURT said: It seems that the creators of this theory were just attempting to find a reason to validate a story that, in certain areas, was poorly written and contained plotholes. Am I to assume that ever badly executed story I read is, in fact, not badly written but simply an alternate view of reality? If the plot of a novel or a movie is terrible, should I begin considering that what I am actually reading or viewing is actually some type of non-linear world, i.e., a dream, nightmare, vision, etc.? That is absurd. Why can't a poorly executed story be just that? The great discoveries of science and philosophy may, at time, required a more creative point of view, but those views were still grounded in what is empirical, observable and rational. The thing is, though, that these people actually have analyzed and made a basis for this theory. No, that's not what it means to theorize. You don't draw an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere and try to twist meanings within the game to support it. You interpret actual events, not drawing an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere. Here's my favorite poorly made-up theory that I always throw against theories like this. Zell is constantly annoyed about not having hotdogs from the cafeteria. My theory is that that annoyance develops into hatred. Hatred against Garden. Hatred against all SeeD. He has knowledge of how a sorceress' powers are passed down. So he kills Rinoa and inherits her powers. And we know that sorceress powers changes your body. So in the same way Adel becomes masculine, Zell starts becoming feminine. The tattoo on his face changes shape to resemble the marks on Ultimecia's face. And we know that Zell knows about Adel's seal, so he seals himself till the future when he can hatch his plan to get revenge on SeeD. We know that he has used GF, so it's likely that he forgot she was ever Zell. That's why Ultimecia asks you to reflect on your childhood. She doesn't remember hers. But she knows to draw Griever from Squall because he was the one who asked him for the ring. So there, my theory is that Zell is Ultimecia. I used evidence from the game too. What evidence, exactly, are you using? And how did they draw some random conclusion out of nowhere when they actually went their way to show every bit of evidence they could to support their theory? It's ironic how you make this claim yet the very example you written is a very good example of what you claimed is the Squall is Dead Theory. What evidence do you have to support that theory? I certainly don't see any. |
| It's fucking Final Fantasy VIII. Christ. I mean, I'm not typically interested in fanfiction, either, but this theory and the notion that it's a concievably acceptable way of interpreting the story canonically is compelling to me. Some inane pseudo-theory about Zell's hotdog craving leading to his transformation into Ultimecia doesn't have anything at all to do with it. You interpret actual events, not drawing an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere. Concluding that being impaled by a huge icicle would kill someone hardly seems arbitrary, does it? Fanboys like you kill all the fun. |
DrewTheDude said: BUTTHURT said: DrewTheDude said: BUTTHURT said: It seems that the creators of this theory were just attempting to find a reason to validate a story that, in certain areas, was poorly written and contained plotholes. Am I to assume that ever badly executed story I read is, in fact, not badly written but simply an alternate view of reality? If the plot of a novel or a movie is terrible, should I begin considering that what I am actually reading or viewing is actually some type of non-linear world, i.e., a dream, nightmare, vision, etc.? That is absurd. Why can't a poorly executed story be just that? The great discoveries of science and philosophy may, at time, required a more creative point of view, but those views were still grounded in what is empirical, observable and rational. The thing is, though, that these people actually have analyzed and made a basis for this theory. No, that's not what it means to theorize. You don't draw an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere and try to twist meanings within the game to support it. You interpret actual events, not drawing an arbitrary conclusion out of nowhere. Here's my favorite poorly made-up theory that I always throw against theories like this. Zell is constantly annoyed about not having hotdogs from the cafeteria. My theory is that that annoyance develops into hatred. Hatred against Garden. Hatred against all SeeD. He has knowledge of how a sorceress' powers are passed down. So he kills Rinoa and inherits her powers. And we know that sorceress powers changes your body. So in the same way Adel becomes masculine, Zell starts becoming feminine. The tattoo on his face changes shape to resemble the marks on Ultimecia's face. And we know that Zell knows about Adel's seal, so he seals himself till the future when he can hatch his plan to get revenge on SeeD. We know that he has used GF, so it's likely that he forgot she was ever Zell. That's why Ultimecia asks you to reflect on your childhood. She doesn't remember hers. But she knows to draw Griever from Squall because he was the one who asked him for the ring. So there, my theory is that Zell is Ultimecia. I used evidence from the game too. What evidence, exactly, are you using? And how did they draw some random conclusion out of nowhere when they actually went their way to show every bit of evidence they could to support their theory? It's ironic how you make this claim yet the very example you written is a very good example of what you claimed is the Squall is Dead Theory. What evidence do you have to support that theory? I certainly don't see any. You clearly didn't understand what I said. I said that he uses In-game events, but he twists interpretations and make leaps in logic to get to his conclusion. You can't go from "weird stuff are happening" (even if you take examples from the game to show that weird events are happening) to "Squall is dead and it must be a dream." Anyways, fuck this thread. Just go read Ultimania. Everything is explained there, written by the man NOJIMA himself. No, I'm not being a fanboy. I'm just using facts. |
| Of course, this is also assuming that there is only one way to interpret these texts and that your interpretation is the only correct one. |
| yeah cuz th3 guy wh0 r0t3 th3 pl0t f0r ffv111 is liek totlyz wr0ng. |
BUTTHURT said: Urr, why should we pay more money to read some article where a bore who obviously can't write interesting plots for his life explains why the story has to be boring? Anyways, fuck this thread. Just go read Ultimania. Everything is explained there, written by the man NOJIMA himself. No, I'm not being a fanboy. I'm just using facts. No thanks, I'd rather keep my money and focus on the actual game rather than some "making of" rants. |
| Did you just say 'pay'? lololololololololololol |
| I can't be assed to read or care what he says either. While I'm definitely in the position to believe that the Squall is dead theory is just an excuse for bad writing, I'm not going to deny that it isn't something that can't be interperted as such. So I think the theory is valid even if that wasn't the authors intention or not. |
| What's the alternative? Download a .pdf or something? I'm only willing to hurt my eyes like that with the WH Codexes. |
| Yeah, I guess you can all just go with your own opinions. As long as you enjoy the game to the fullest, it doesn't really matter. It just bugs me that people try to go against the will of the person who wrote the plot for the game and say that what he says doesn't go and that this 'theory' can be valid just cause you don't accept what he says. Therefor, not really a theory, just a fan faction. |
DrewTheDude said: SkyCrawler said: TurnipKing said: I thought it was final fantasy 7?Medievil is the greatest PS1 title of all time. Why did my disc have to break? Why?! T_T Nah. Xenogears, actually. At one time I'd have been inclined to agree on Xenogears. I still might -- at least as far as PSX jRPGs go, that and Chrono Cross are my favorites. They both get pretty silly with their jRPG melodrama, but Xenogears still manages to speak to the soul, somehow (and all its NGE/Star Wars/Arthur C. Clarke/etc. influences are still fun), and Chrono Cross is simply a summertime dream. For my favorite PSX title of all, though, I suppose MGS is the one I've returned to the most, followed by Symphony of the Night and Silent Hill. I never played FFT more than once, but I'd say that's in the running as well. |
| But you should be able to understand a work of art (If you can even call it that) by viewing the thing alone rather than resorting to additional explanations and crap. If the author meant something but still willingly or unwillingly left enough ambiguity for someone to interpret it differently, then that's too bad, the author just failed. We can't say one interpretation is wrong just because that wasn't what the creator had in mind if it's all due to ambiguity or the author's failings. In terms of the game itself this theory isn't impossible, and no matter what any later additional stuff might say, that fact doesn't change. |
| Square has a habit of releasing an Ultimania for almost every title of theirs. So, I dunno. It's still considered canon material and should be considered as such. The purpose of the Ultimanias are for people to stop making such silly theories and get a clear view on what's really going on in the story. They don't add anything to the story, they just make it comprehensible for people to get rid of their doubts. |
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