will the Scott Pilgrim anime be added to the database?

@quercifolia Hey, I am legitimately curious. Can you explain why you think donghua are fine, but this isn't?

AI've already mentioned, but a lot of the executive producers are just from the production company of the book/live action which is standard practice.

And since you've said source material doesn't matter, and seem to think donghua is fine here, what else is the issue? The director and other producers are anime professionals, do they not count for some reason?

This is without even looking at how the 'BUt tHe PrOdUcErS' argument falls apart when looked at for more than two seconds.

Cyberpunk Edgerunners is on MAL.

The source material is western in nature, just like SPTO.

It was animated by a Japanese Animation Studio, like SPTO.

It was a Netflix Production, just like SPTO.

The Executive Producer was not Japanese, just like SPTO.

The Director, however, is Japanese. Just like SPTO.

Cyberpunk Edgerunners is on MAL.

Scott Pilgrim Takes Off should be on MAL.

It's that simple.

@BRSxIgnition I think you should stop replying to this quercifolia guy, he's not changing his mind.

@NekozillaMaru yeah, they're able to just stomach that 'Oh these east Asian cultures are allowed in the rules, I don't need to question it even though the logic flies in the face of what I've been saying this entire time!'

The issue is that MAL ignores it's own rules when it comes to animation by East Asians outside Japan, but applies them randomly for anything outside that slim categorization.

Whatever - I've wasted enough time on arguing the logic with this individual, they're happy with how things are because they like that Donghua are included - it's as simple as that. Status Quo 'benefits' them.

Done replying to them.

@Glordit
What are your thoughts on the Cyberpunk Edgerunners parallel listed above?

I'm not even an 'SP fan' - it's just the blatant hypocrisy that pisses me off.

The rules are the rules, the rule itself was never the debate. Why do you keep changing the subject?

I wouldn't call it convenient, just a fact.



Is it hypocritical to have Chinese but not (for example) Filipino animation works? Probably. Do the rules need to be updated for the times? Probably. But the quality of the rules wasn't the debate, it was whether or not SPTO fits the definition of anime under the current rules. Which you already know my opinions on that, so I won't keep repeating it.

But, I will say, yes it is true we don't know the exact level of involvement of them (or any staff). So we can only really go off face value of what has been billed in the staff and so on.



Cyberpunk Edgerunners has far more Japanese staff in more creative roles and roles in power.

Unlike SPTO.





I don't mind if you know something before or after. A well laid trap or whatever in a debate is clever (in my opinion) not that I'm saying that you did, but it's not a negative thing I don't think lol

From what I can see that is true, Eunyoung Choi helped to found and also bought Abel Góngora on board-- the two of them worked together for Ankama Japan which was an offshoot of a French company.

However, I'm not sure how this history of Science SARU particularly affects things here. In terms of MAL eligibility, perhaps being Korean would be a point in favor, though.

However, I would just like to point out the executive producers; and the fact that the rest of them them are indeed from other places. One is from Japan (Kohei Obara, Netflix's head of anime) and one from Korea (Eunyoung Choi, as we know) and the rest elsewhere.

As you say, most of them are from elsewhere. Out of eleven, that's only one Japanese voice and one Korean voice. An uneven split, a minority. Most of the people making a decision, they're Canadian, American. Even if only half of the total people actively participated, Japanese and Korean input is still outnumbered by around four to one.

If you're one of eleven, you don't really have very much control at all! You still have to go with the whims of the other ten. At least that's from my experience working on a committee before. No-one is really in charge, you have to discuss things and even go to a vote. Possibly a bit different for a creative studio, though.

As for top listed, on Wikipedia "Marc Platt" is first on the list, and Eunyoung Choi ninth. "Science SARU" is fourth on the list of producers. I don't know if there is an official listing of billed cast but the execs were listed the same order in the opening credits. 56 seconds in if you wanted to confirm, otherwise the opening theme is pretty good.

Also something I noticed, but all the voice actors credited are the English ones. I just remembered someone saying it was 'targeting a Japanese Audience' but... With credits all in English, that doesn't seem obvious.

@quercifolia bro that's just bs and you know it, we better go to sleep it's late good night

@NekozillaMaru yeah, they're able to just stomach that 'Oh these east Asian cultures are allowed in the rules, I don't need to question it even though the logic flies in the face of what I've been saying this entire time!'

The issue is that MAL ignores it's own rules when it comes to animation by East Asians outside Japan, but applies them randomly for anything outside that slim categorization.

Whatever - I've wasted enough time on arguing the logic with this individual, they're happy with how things are because they like that Donghua are included - it's as simple as that. Status Quo 'benefits' them.

Done replying to them.

@Glordit
What are your thoughts on the Cyberpunk Edgerunners parallel listed above?

I'm not even an 'SP fan' - it's just the blatant hypocrisy that pisses me off.

@quercifolia as stated above, you should make your specific pain point clear. What is it exactly that you believe disqualifies SPTO from qualifying as an anime?

Only reason I've tried arguing different angles is because you keep shifting the goal posts and making differing points of your own.

Before it was if the director qualifies as Japanese Industry Talent - I believe its been settled that they do.

Then you said not enough staff were Japanese. We then identified that majority of the staff are Japanese.

Your latest point has been that the 'controlling roles' are non Japanese, but it's been clarified that executive producers are often more just sources of information on the source material and not actually controlling every facet of production.

Im just trying to meet and rebuke each of your points as you raise them. No back pedaling or ass pulls here - you're just getting mad that I'm refuting each of your arguments.

Also, if you're arguing Science Saru isn't a Japanese Production Company, it's still very much a Japanese Animation Company, and Netflix has produced other Japanese Animated projects that are on MAL in partnership with other Japanese animation studios.

So, what new argument will you bring up now?

I feel I've identified the issues with your points above.

Everyone far too hung up on the animation production and not looking at the actual shows production teams. If you did, you'd see that Cyber Punk is way more "Japanese" than Scott Pilgrim.

The blatant hypocrisy is the constant hair splitting, and double standards being made by the users here.

@ukloim

I'm going off IMDB actually, where the main staff roles are clearly listed, and the majority are not Japanese.

Key animators, key frames, etc. We don't need to go into the nitty gritty of the studio and each separate employee. Unless you also want to do the same for Netflix and go, one by one, through every single netflix employee that was involved?

Again, outsourcing the animation to a studio doesn't equal a Japanese production. Otherwise, we really should be putting The Simpsons on here.

@BRSxIgnition I already linked the IMDB staff list, which has more effectively condensed the roles into main roles (instead of showing literally every single person that ever blinked or bought someone a spare pen during production)

The animating studio is only one single part of the production. Listing every single name on the studio doesn't suddenly mean they have majority control over production. It's important to look at all of the major roles, such as executive producers, directors, and so on, which are listed on IMDB.

Edit: (since you edited yours)

Things like 'episode director' are not relevant because they are working underneath someone else. Only the people at the top of the chain in the studio are really considered as 'controlling' anything.

@LegendaryRQA

Regarding your hypothetical, Abel Góngora isn't really any sort of lynchpin for me.

The main basis for me: the executive producers are overwhelmingly Canadian and American. In addition, the music was also composed by two Americans. Overall, the people with the most creative control in this production are American and Canadian.

For this show to be allowed, it would simply require a more even split in the production. More creative control for the Japanese staff, more Japanese involvement in general.

Currently, it just looks like some Americans and Canadians got together, said "hey, anime is cool right? we should make it look like anime!". And found a studio to make it happen.

@LegendaryRQA

Regarding your hypothetical, Abel Góngora isn't really any sort of lynchpin for me.

The main basis for me: the executive producers are overwhelmingly Canadian and American. In addition, the music was also composed by two Americans. Overall, the people with the most creative control in this production are American and Canadian.

For this show to be allowed, it would simply require a more even split in the production. More creative control for the Japanese staff, more Japanese involvement in general.

Currently, it just looks like some Americans and Canadians got together, said "hey, anime is cool right? we should make it look like anime!". And found a studio to make it happen.

@BiasBuddha

Regarding Donghua I think it's probably a more complex thing than just saying "They are all geographically close and influenced each other" as for why Japanese, Korean and Chinese are included on the site. Personally I don't really care about the inclusion of it. If someone wanted to be purist, they would include only Japanese productions period-- No co-produced series (like Afro Samurai) No Chinese or Korean etc.

Mainly it wasn't part of the argument here regarding SPTO, since SPTO isn't a Donghua anyway.



I'll just break this down since people seem to get stuck on it

Source Material is just what the thing is adapted from. It doesn't matter where the source material is from.

Donghua is a chinese production, and it's allowed in the rules, that's all there really is to say. Is Donghua anime? That's a whole new argument, but personally I see Eastern and Western animations as being different types of animation overall.

As for the director and other producers, their profession isn't a part of the decision either. It is merely whether they are Japanese (or chinese or korean, I guess) and how the work has been divided.

Is the creative work equal between all nationalities? etc.

"the music was also composed by two Americans."

Okay, better remove every anime that has any Western composers involved, Blood+ is going, Tekkonkinkreet is going, Interstella 5555 is going...

@quercifolia i compiled a bunch of quotes from separate interviews a while back, if you wanna go through it lol; science saru for sure had creative control over how they wanted it to look
the post

To be fair, I don't think that Blu-Ray is official. But I also think focusing on physical releases in 2023 is stupid as hell.

It is driving me up a wall that no matter how much information we provide it just gets ignored. Adjusting your viewpoints to new information is literally what any reasonable person would do, rather than sticking your head in the sand and pretending it just doesn't exist because it doesn't agree with you.

@Marids_Gift
I'm not particularly concerned with MAL's current Manga and Anime database guidelines (or exceptions they may or may not make to them), because they have an overly liberal interpretation of what qualifies as animanga. If it were up to me, Otosama and Boichi's authored "manga" would be removed. The guidelines need to be tightened, not loosened.

Might have to just repost everything collectively. Collected by various users. If no response after a while someone could just send it to a database mod. Hopefully i didnt miss any big ones

@quercifolia i compiled a bunch of quotes from separate interviews a while back, if you wanna go through it lol; science saru for sure had creative control over how they wanted it to look
the post

@quercifolia My point was less about her being Korean and more that she is the literal CEO and co-founder of Science SARU. Her influence couldn't be that weak. Though i suppose you already responded to that with your comment about committees.

@KYsBadTaste

From that post:



So, the showrunners went to Science SARU to oversee and supervise the production. Which indicates that Science SARU was working for them, and did not actually have final creative control over things. It also implies that if the work wasn't satisfactory they'd have to change or redo it.

@quercifolia So you're saying that these guys were so hands off they weren't even in the studio and didn't know what the characters looked like.
Sheesh, this needs to be added yesterday

@LegendaryRQA

The other showrunners visited the studio to check up on the work. That suggests the studio doesn't even have final creative control on what they're doing. Where did I even say someone was 'hands off'?

@LegendaryRQA Yes, that's what I mean. Within Science SARU the studio itself, she probably has a huge influence. But within the showrunners, she's just one person

@quercifolia I was referring directly to the quote. Sorry about that. The point is it can be interpreted both ways. Had it say something like: "[...]they seemed pretty off track with my vision, so i told them what to change" or something to that effect, maybe you'd be right, but there is nothing in that comment to prove their involvement one way or the other. It's silly to suggest they were quality checking for the same reason it's silly for me to say they were 100% hands off. It's non-falsifiable either way.

@quercifolia

You are arguing that Series Lead Director Abel Gongora; Series Lead Animator, Executive Producer and Science SARU CEO Eunyoung Choi; Series Lead Editor Keisuke Yanagi (prev. Jujutsu Kaisen); and Photography Directors Hikari Itou (prev. Yurei Deco and Yojohan Time Machine) and Yoshihiro Sekiya (prev. Your Lie in April and Girls Und Panzer films); directly controlled the direction, animation, composition and editing of the entire project but somehow did not have any creative control over the series.

This position is absolutely absurd and indefensible.

To be fair, I don't think that Blu-Ray is official. But I also think focusing on physical releases in 2023 is stupid as hell.

It is driving me up a wall that no matter how much information we provide it just gets ignored. Adjusting your viewpoints to new information is literally what any reasonable person would do, rather than sticking your head in the sand and pretending it just doesn't exist because it doesn't agree with you.

@thecactusman17


But... That is not what I argued.

The issue is not 'full creative control'. Nor did I say they have 'no creative control'.

It is about the balance of creative control.

One person (Eunyoung Choi, executive producer) out of eleven is not an even balance of creative control.


What is actually absurd:
All these people registering a new account/alt just to argue about whether Scott Pilgrim should be added to MAL. At least have the guts to own your opinions on your main lmao

@KYsBadTaste

From that post:



So, the showrunners went to Science SARU to oversee and supervise the production. Which indicates that Science SARU was working for them, and did not actually have final creative control over things. It also implies that if the work wasn't satisfactory they'd have to change or redo it.

This thread had brought up several arguments against adding it:

• It's based on a Canadian comic book set in Canada
  
• The script was written in English
  
• Many of the producers are Western
  
• Its existing fanbase is mostly Western
  
• The OP lists the English cast
  
• Director Abel Góngora, despite working in Japan for years was born in Spain
  
• It doesn't look like typical anime or have a typical anime plot
  

None of those facts disprove that it meets both of the key Anime Database Guidelines criteria for joint-productions:

1. The Japanese studio had staff in key positions of creative control of this series (I.2.2)
   
2. Netflix & Science Saru produced it for both the Japanese and global market (I.1)
   

Point 1: Aside from the script, staff based in Japan performed all creative work. They did all sound design, foley, storyboarding, character designs, animation, backgrounds, compositing, editing, the opening music, and directed every episode. The first teaser lists "Science SARU” and director Abel Góngora before anyone else; that doesn’t happen to outsourced studios. It more than fulfills MyAnimeList's requirement for key positions of creative control. MAL has no requirement that the script, story or franchise must originate in Japan, China or Korea. Credulous speculation that Western EPs removed creative control from Science SARU has no place in this discussion - if anything, they encouraged it.

Point 2: Both Science SARU and Netflix advertised it in Japanese on all their official socials. Japanese industry sites like Comic Natalie promoted the announcement. The series was available dubbed in Japanese by well known seiyuu on day-one. These concrete actions show a robust effort to target the Japanese market, in complete accordance with MyAnimeList's guidelines. Its commercial success in in Japan is immaterial.

It falls well within the requirements for joint-productions, more so than some titles already on the site. Consider Blade Runner: Black Lotus or Housing Complex C, both somehow qualify when their executive production staff is entirely American, they were produced for an American Cable channel, and they never aired in Japan. Afro Samurai has no Japanese dub. Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker was produced by Americans, the script written by an American, and was based on an American video game - only the animation was outsourced to Japan, which explicitly disqualifies it from MAL. This thread has dozens of similar examples.

I haven't seen a single convincing reason to disqualify Scott Pilgrim Takes Off under the current standards. Excluding it contradicts the guidelines as written and seems arbitrary. MAL can amend or reinterpret their rules, but until the text changes it's reasonable to expect that they'll follow them verbatim and add it.

@SiliconDon I'm worried your well written and formatted argument (that I agree with) will get buried in the bickering other users are doing.

Though tbh I doubt the mods are even trying to do damage control or checking what users are saying.

@quercifolia If your going to cherry pick quotes, how about one of the first listed in the post about that interview:


They literally state they made writing changes based on choices made by the animation studio.

How does that mean the animation studio had no control??



Did we even read the same post?