Tomodachi Game Episode 6 Discussion

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Oct 2017

110

RinTheWanderer said:

ROMARIOkkkk said:

Here you are making quite heavy assumptions and saying that is "flaw". Can't tell you much without spoiler, all I can say is that the Yuuichi was who really had the purest of the intentions in accepting to play the Tomodachi Game, he really just wanted to help his friends. Now about the others... we already "know" Tenji's motive.

Now I think Yuuichi did have reasons for make his assumption. Until the 6th period (if i'm not mistaken) they didn't know there were spaces where their debt would decrease. He based his assumptions on a real Sugoroku (i don't know how they work) and on how the game proposes the idea that if everyone cooperates, they can get rid of their debt. You can't play a damn game where you win 2 million yen if you clear it, but you lose more than that 2 million over the course of the game, even if you do exactly what you're supposed to do, cooperate.

In this part are you talking about the 2nd game or the Tomodachi Game as a whole? Anyway, when I said he tested Tenji's goal i was only referring to this 2nd game. I've already read the manga, but even so i don't think there could be any game where you use your debt to "buy" something. It would a bit inconsistent if you ask me. And would be such a bold of the traitor to think like that "oh, maybe the next games i'll need to have the largest debt in order to take the advantege and win". I mean, you only play the Tomodachi Game to reduce your debt, don't ya? Lol, why would you do the opposite of get rid of your debt at that moment lol.

His assumption that debt reduction spaces exist is because the game would be boring to the spectators otherwise. This assumption holds just as much weight before or after you see debt spaces and the optimal way of ending the game on 1 turn avoids all spaces and guarantees debt reduction.

I'm not making any assumptions. A person agreeing to play tomodachi game without prior knowledge with the goal of reducing debt is an idiot. There is no way around this. You'd have to be incredibly incredibly stupid to apply to the game to reduce debt unless you know how the game works (like being a previous player). That's the flaw of the story. By even agreeing to play the game in the first place, they have all proven they are irrational and dumb. The author just needs you to look the other way and accept that the characters magically assume they will be safe playing the game and that the game is fair and that if they win, the administrators will stick to their word and reduce the debt.

If the logical and smart tenji was the one that applied to the game, it's unthinkiable that it would be to reduce debt and without prior knowledge, because he isn't that stupid. He would be better served blackmailing Shibe's dad or something.

As to your last point, even if there isn't a way to use debt to your advantage in a future game, Yuuichi can't know that. If he correctly deduces that the traitor has prior knowledge of the tomodachi game, he can't predict the traitors actions, because he doesn't know how the future games will look.

For instance in kaiji very first game, you can use debt to your advantage. It's not even something that hasn't been done before in the genre. It doesn't matter if the actual game does it or not, because Yuuichi hasn't seen the rest of the game and the traitor may have.

The logic in this series is closer to misdirection than deduction. There's a lot of things the author needs you to not pay attention to or question in order for the story to proceed.

Tbh I feel very confused looking at some reviews or discussions that nitpick on the story's premise and some random flaws they came up with... Most of the time they think their found so called "flaws" are right without putting themselves in the characters' shoes or brainstorming seriously so they might miss some psychological aspects or crucial information.
Call the premise weird and charaters dumb. Cmon it's fictional, if you get tazed and kidnapped so professionally and were put in an unknown isolated and advanced facility, what can you really do? Fight for the cause? Barehanded? Yes, they are so naive to agree choosing to play the game, in order to save their friend in debt but:
-There are big diff between naivety and idiocy. (Excluding Shibe)
-Shiho, who thought her crush might be in debt, desperately urged everyone to proceed without asking.
-Tenji, now we know he had inferior motives.
-Yutori, weak-willed girl, came to agree upon seeing others' decisions.
-Shibe, he's dumb, don't expect anything from him.
-So only Yuuichi left, who hestitated but still went with the flow with doubts since he considered friends the most precious thing.
---
I'm sorry to RinTheWanderer in advance but I srsly think you miss some points of the game system.
It's a game specifically made to help its players clear their debt, so what's wrong with the numbers start with minus? Slowly win the games and get bonuses, ain't those are gains? Not to mention who applied for the game and successfully drag their friends into shit, his/ her self-proclaimed debt is automatically reduced cuz debts are evenly distributed among participants, ain't that a gain? Even the trick to cause disturbance and betrayals between friends also provides big sum of money, yeah?
Starting with debt is a nice concept tbh, they don't give away big sum of money for free. It's not a gambling story for ppl to have some kind of starting capitals. It's different from Liar Game that you had actually 0 or whatever at start but were lended 100M to start playing.
Fundamentally, they can CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY the game but our cast chose to do so. Once they are in, they can't easily get out, that's it. Srsly stop complaining about the premise and game system, it's pretty unreasonable.
Tbh and realistically speaking, you said that there were easier ways to escape debt with much lower risk then I'm sorry, money can't be born per se and 20M is NOT a small number, big money always come with big risk and the higher risk, the higher return.
---
Back to the 2nd game, I'm sorry to RinTheWanderer again, this time based on your found "flaws", I self assume that you might miss or unaware of some crucial points.
-Manabu clearly stated that the game is akin to normal Sugoroku but they advance by using the bad mouth papers and the spaces are decided by the survey system. It's Sugoroku so there MUST be plus - minus - no change - special effects. Yuuichi's deduction after few rounds wasn't lucky at all. That's why he intentionally proposed a flawed decoy plan not only to verify Tenji's motive was MONEY or NOT but also stall the game for everybody moving slowly toward the goal which reduce some debts occured in the 2nd game, additionally, one last chance for Tenji's change of heart for everybody to work together and proceed the 3rd game.
-His traps are all prepared and his goal was always to proceed the 3rd game alone.
-He also confirmed that Tenji was the traitor, applied and dragged them to the game and also the motive wasn't MONEY so he interrogated Tenji at the end, no?
-For some of your thoughts, assumptions or ideas, like slandering, read the rules again, you need to specifically slander someone to trigger the survey. You even have to prove the lies yourself and in some case it's hard to, the survey is once again the decisive factor. That's why Tenji kissed Yuuichi just to go along the 3rd game with him.
-For the idea of blackmailing Shibe's dad... Bro idk how you came up with that srsly, from what we've seen in Tenji's POV and monologue, was there anything related to Shibe's pop?
-Lastly, Yuuichi can never know how the future game will look, yes, I don't think most of the characters in High Stake Game or bigger, Battle Royale genres know what their next games look like tbh... Only skills, wits or sometimes plot armours (Especially in Death Game's char) can help them... At least our boy knows how to MANIPULATE ppl. He's on par with Akiyama Shinichi from Liar Game, it's just different type of methodologies and roots.
P.S. Tomodachi Game is a shounen manga but its storytelling type gives audience enough rooms and hints for being able to think themselves. It's shounen but don't expect some Dues ex machina or friendship power/ plot armour shounen bs. There are flaws, indeed, but not yet, not on things you said either.

May 12, 2022 12:42 PM

#152

Dark_Lord7

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Dec 2020

366

Lmao, this episode did some things that can't be comprehended by my single simple mind

May 12, 2022 1:04 PM

#153

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Oct 2018

141

"Dude, once again, they didn't accepted to play that risky game because they're dumb. You are making the dumbest assumption possible. Everyone there have their own motive to accept, and it's not "because i want to help my friend in debt"."

That is my point. You'd have to be dumb to do it just for helping a friend in debt. Since tenji isn't dumb, theres no reason he would agree to play the game, if he didn't have an ulterior motive (which he did).

"he may suppose but he could not be sure, even if Tenji is the traitor"

Again, that's the point. If there is a real possibility that the traitor played the game already, then there is a real possibility that their actions won't subscribe to any logic Yuuichi could come up with, because they have additional information that Yuuichi can't come up with (notable how the game works). Whoever the applicant is had to know about the tomodachi game in the first place and you can't know the limits of their knowledge about it. When you combine that with suspecting tenji and tenji uncharacteristically agreeing to play in the first place, it's not a huge leap to think tenji likely has knowledge of the game that the others don't.

"Cmon it's fictional, if you get tazed and kidnapped so professionally and were put in an unknown isolated and advanced facility, what can you really do? Fight for the cause? Barehanded?"

Leave obviously. Why would you stick around some psychos that professionally tazed and kidnapped you and run some weird gameshow. You'd be scared for you life. Trusting the people to do what they said is ridiculous.

" It's not a gambling story for ppl to have some kind of starting capitals." Yeah but the characters don't know that. They have no idea what is in store for them or what kind of games come up. They don't know if it's the same for every tomodachi game, they don't know how many other groups are doing it, they don't know who is running it or what their motives are, and they don't know if the game is actually fair or not.

"For the idea of blackmailing Shibe's dad... Bro idk how you came up with that srsly, from what we've seen in Tenji's POV and monologue, was there anything related to Shibe's pop?"

It's just one less risky way to get out of debt. Tenji has experience using spying equipment, knows Shibe's family is rich, and theres rumors around his dad being shady. It wouldn't be terribly hard for him to use that stuff to get blackmail on Shibe's dad and use that to get out of debt. It would be MUCH safer than letting a secret society kidnap you and force you to play games whose rules you don't know ahead of time. You could end up in a game that all but guarantees tenji loses. He has no reason to think otherwise, unless he's played the game already.

"-For some of your thoughts, assumptions or ideas, like slandering, read the rules again, you need to specifically slander someone to trigger the survey. You even have to prove the lies yourself and in some case it's hard to, the survey is once again the decisive factor. That's why Tenji kissed Yuuichi just to go along the 3rd game with him." That's why my example said "I think" and not just 1+1 = 3 but if thats your hang up just write 100 slanders about yourself, that you can easily disprove.

"storytelling type gives audience enough rooms and hints for being able to think themselves" It doesn't though because the series so far does have asspulls and faulty or incomplete logic. That's why I'm frustrated. I'm not just annoyed for the sake of it, I was thinking while watching the game and coming up with strategies but the real strategy is impossible to predict because it is wrong and incomplete (like not showing how he manipulated the turn order to have someone end in the last spot when people move unpredictably between 1 and 5 spaces per turn).

"storytelling type gives audience enough rooms and hints for being able to think themselves" Which he could have done turn one with his own strategy slightly modified. You say he interrogated Tenji but what did he actually learn about tenji's motives aside from not being money which already wasn't likely to begin with?".

And once again as myself and others have pointed out, there is no guarantee there was exactly 1 traitor. There could have been 2 or even 0.The host of the games could have made up there being an applicant.

May 12, 2022 1:05 PM

#154

Karinara

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Crazy Cat Lady

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Apr 2019

2442

The thread has been cleaned, please keep the discussion civil.

May 12, 2022 5:17 PM

#155

Moumoux8

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Feb 2021

Why does Yuuichi assume the traitor cannot be Shiho or Kokorogi if they wrote a common secret they share? They could have played him…

May 13, 2022 12:00 AM

#156

Droebie

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Feb 2022

446

I'll admit the confession scene surprised me and has my attention enough to keep watching despite not liking the first two games too much.

May 13, 2022 12:50 AM

#157

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Oct 2017

110

RinTheWanderer said:
"Dude, once again, they didn't accepted to play that risky game because they're dumb. You are making the dumbest assumption possible. Everyone there have their own motive to accept, and it's not "because i want to help my friend in debt"."

That is my point. You'd have to be dumb to do it just for helping a friend in debt. Since tenji isn't dumb, theres no reason he would agree to play the game, if he didn't have an ulterior motive (which he did).

"he may suppose but he could not be sure, even if Tenji is the traitor"

Again, that's the point. If there is a real possibility that the traitor played the game already, then there is a real possibility that their actions won't subscribe to any logic Yuuichi could come up with, because they have additional information that Yuuichi can't come up with (notable how the game works). Whoever the applicant is had to know about the tomodachi game in the first place and you can't know the limits of their knowledge about it. When you combine that with suspecting tenji and tenji uncharacteristically agreeing to play in the first place, it's not a huge leap to think tenji likely has knowledge of the game that the others don't.

"Cmon it's fictional, if you get tazed and kidnapped so professionally and were put in an unknown isolated and advanced facility, what can you really do? Fight for the cause? Barehanded?"

Leave obviously. Why would you stick around some psychos that professionally tazed and kidnapped you and run some weird gameshow. You'd be scared for you life. Trusting the people to do what they said is ridiculous.

" It's not a gambling story for ppl to have some kind of starting capitals." Yeah but the characters don't know that. They have no idea what is in store for them or what kind of games come up. They don't know if it's the same for every tomodachi game, they don't know how many other groups are doing it, they don't know who is running it or what their motives are, and they don't know if the game is actually fair or not.

"For the idea of blackmailing Shibe's dad... Bro idk how you came up with that srsly, from what we've seen in Tenji's POV and monologue, was there anything related to Shibe's pop?"

It's just one less risky way to get out of debt. Tenji has experience using spying equipment, knows Shibe's family is rich, and theres rumors around his dad being shady. It wouldn't be terribly hard for him to use that stuff to get blackmail on Shibe's dad and use that to get out of debt. It would be MUCH safer than letting a secret society kidnap you and force you to play games whose rules you don't know ahead of time. You could end up in a game that all but guarantees tenji loses. He has no reason to think otherwise, unless he's played the game already.

"-For some of your thoughts, assumptions or ideas, like slandering, read the rules again, you need to specifically slander someone to trigger the survey. You even have to prove the lies yourself and in some case it's hard to, the survey is once again the decisive factor. That's why Tenji kissed Yuuichi just to go along the 3rd game with him." That's why my example said "I think" and not just 1+1 = 3 but if thats your hang up just write 100 slanders about yourself, that you can easily disprove.

"storytelling type gives audience enough rooms and hints for being able to think themselves" It doesn't though because the series so far does have asspulls and faulty or incomplete logic. That's why I'm frustrated. I'm not just annoyed for the sake of it, I was thinking while watching the game and coming up with strategies but the real strategy is impossible to predict because it is wrong and incomplete (like not showing how he manipulated the turn order to have someone end in the last spot when people move unpredictably between 1 and 5 spaces per turn).

"storytelling type gives audience enough rooms and hints for being able to think themselves" Which he could have done turn one with his own strategy slightly modified. You say he interrogated Tenji but what did he actually learn about tenji's motives aside from not being money which already wasn't likely to begin with?".

And once again as myself and others have pointed out, there is no guarantee there was exactly 1 traitor. There could have been 2 or even 0.The host of the games could have made up there being an applicant.

3-Bro how is it supposed to be logical if you can easily leave after getting kipnapped? U srsly said that with all those arguments? You have some good points, indeed, but also a lot of bad ones ngl.
1-Sure, sure, opinion diff. For you, you don't. (For me, it depends on the friends of mine so I can agree to some extent). For them, they do, naive or impure ones.
Tbh, I'm pretty confident that majority of stories are fictional. Just say you don't like it starts, please, don't try to apply and compare it to real life scenarios... It's unreasonable tbf.
2-Tenji wasn't like himself, the smart, calm and collected mediator. He's mad sus, no?
A lot of ppl even were able to see that in first 2 episodes, knowing nothing abt the story, why couldn't Yuuichi?
He saved Tenji and Shibe for the last process of elimination because of that, m8. The most sus and the one who started the 1st screwed round of Kokuri-san Game.
Kokorogi is pretty safe since she was the last turn in 1st game but he needed the timing and she's a bit weak-willed; not to mention, Shiho proposed to work together so he needed time for preparations, theory testing with those traps. Shiho was even striked 1st and consecutively so if she did exactly as he planned and told her to, she's a reliable comrade, no?
Gj with theories and assumptions that Shiho is one of the traitor, even the motive wasn't money, is diving straight and alone to hell a wise strat? Gimme a break.
4-Mate, are we watching a same show? You clearly missed details, unwillingly or intentionally, I gotta say.
Saying they are dumb for not leaving after getting kidnapped, but blackmailing for getting rid of debt, r u srs? It's total contradiction in my pov.
Tenji's motive clearly IS NOT MONEY and there must be st going on with his obsession with Shiho. Watching his POV very early, there are even hints and indicators that st is going on (Even in the OP/ ED) and I don't want to emphasize cuz I might spoil ppl.
Additionally, Tenji knows how the game system work to an extent, it's his second Tomodachi Game, the admin stated that at the end of Ep.6, no?
With knowledge like that and some info collected during his stalker days, has it been an upper hand in the sleeves alrdy? Tell me how it's not. You have a good point that it doesn't guarantee his win or the game can proceed as he wishes but don't deny that he has reasons, basis and preparations for doing so.
5-1-There goes the 0 traitor theory again.
It's not a Death Game manga, you don't fight the system (And other participants, ofc). It's ppl you have to out-wit in High Stake Game.
The 0 traitor theory you guys came up with is flawed by itself, if there are no traitor, the 1st game's coin wouldn't move to No and the plan for everybody to work together (Which was an intentional flawed plan) and readjust the spacing for everyone to reach the goal at the same time would WORK somehow, not failed miserably like that.
5-2-2 traitor theory? Cool, it's complex.
Yo if traitors' motive are MONEY. They have 2 options:
A-Dumping the booby penalty on an innocent friend. It failed in the 1st game. There's no such condition in the 2nd game and unknown in the next ones.
B-Proceed the game. Win small but a gain is a gain. Pushing one to hell in the 2nd game is a fair strat, extra 1M for you. But you still need to opt to proceed the 3rd game anw, your debt is reduced if you succeed your plan in the 2nd game but there are still debts. Go next to find more opportunities. Eventually you have to move fast in the later half since Yuuichi has pointed out that early spaces have a lot of minus.
Speaking of MONEY, gl if your motive was money, Yuuichi has your nameplates hostage. Try to deny that, uwc.
If traitors's motive are NOT MONEY.
I say it's pretty safe to ally with Kokorogi who almost busted in the 1st game. She trusted Yuuichi with her nameplate and followed his instruction flawlessly, what do you expect more from an ally?
By that logic, Shiho was the target this time in the 2nd game. It's clearly absurb to say she's the traitor, she was striked consecutively. Even your motive wasn't money, what can you solve by leading the dive straight to hell by a large margin? Meh, prove me wrong.
Finally, we are left with Shibe and Tenji, if there were 2 traitors, must be them, right? And the motive wasn't money so try to explain me why Shibe volunteered for the Special Chance? He's dumb? It can't be helped? No no no, it just doesn't make any sense, logically speaking. The Special Chance exposed largely, even things unbeknownst to you, just remember Shibe's face when his father's doing appeared on the screen LMAO.
In a nutshell, screw the 2 traitor theory, it isn't legit tbh.
5-3-3 and above traitors?
You srsly think Yuuichi care about money since he's poor? Nope, it clearly indicated that he cares for his friends above all in the 1st game.
For 2nd game, it was always his plan to go on 3rd game alone, worst case. Let's say if he found 3 traitors or he couldn't found more than one friend to work with. Ez pz, submit lies that can easily self-proved and slowly moving in the later half. If debt is cleared somehow, stop playing the game right there and stay out of those traitors. If not and you want to save the last innocent friend who's in the lead, expose the lies and proceed the game by yourself (Or better, with your innocent and true ally). With his abilities, I don't think the decision to go alone can make it hard for Yuuichi.
Just ff but in 4 traitors case, it doesn't make sense but it's even easier to solve. Lay traps and lay low, watching those traitors fight among themselves and easily gain 1.4M and take a break. If 4 of them pushed Yuuichi straight to hell, pfft, I don't think he care and being scared at all. Screw those ah, Imma capable of clearing the game and reduce debts myself.

May 13, 2022 6:42 AM

#158

natsu0398

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Apr 2022

that kiss came outta nowhere lmaooo

May 13, 2022 7:17 AM

#159

PurpleMagic

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Jan 2021

686

Tenjin actually kissed him, holy crap that is commitment. Pretty obvious from our perspective that he's still lying about this, but dude has the make up for what he did somehow.

May 13, 2022 8:13 AM

#160

Mihaeroff

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Apr 2018

320

So many layers of mystery.

May 13, 2022 9:47 AM

#161

Shindz_17

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Jul 2020

178

Okay, time to go to game 3. I think it's going to be an interesting game there.

May 13, 2022 11:18 AM

#162

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564074

i know there's gonna be another bigger plot twist than this coming up because that was ao unexpected.

nah, but for real, after all, Tenji did, he turned to be gay?! I was screaming! Was that what he meant when he said he would get back at Sawaragi for stealing what's precious to him?' was that it?!💀

the episode was fire tho! really enjoyed it! man, can't wait for the next ep!

May 13, 2022 11:27 AM

#163

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Oct 2018

141

These responses are getting more and more scattered and tough to keep track of since new supporting arguments keep arriving. There's a few issues and one I forgot to point out last time. The debt is not 20 million dollars. it's 20 million yen. That's like 160k dollars.

Your responses to some things are strange. All of my points are talking about what Yuuichi should be thinking, based on the information he has. For instance, if tenji is the traitor, theres no way his motivation is money. From Yuuichi's perspective, Tenji would be smart enough to get out of the debt without needing to risk the tomodachi game. If Tenji is really a scumbag enough to drag his friends to this game and foist his debt onto them, then theres no reason he wouldn't instead make the better play to blackmail Shibe's dad. The sheer fact that Tenji agreed to play the game should both gaurantee that he is a traitor and that his goal is not money. Yuuichi should be all but certain of that from the very first episode.

Additionally you keep talking about not being able to leave so maybe you forgot but in the first episode, the tomodachi game people say they can just leave. They don't have to play the game, they can go home, and the application money is forfeit but thats it. IF, and the IF is important here, IF your goal was to reduce debt or save your friends from debt, you wouldn't play this game unless you were incredibly stupid and brave. So like, maybe Shibe would play but thats it. You put any rational human in the same situation, no matter how naive or stupid they are, and they will wake up in that location terrified and think only leaving safely.

The zero traitor option (it's not my theory, obviously I watched the show and know Tenji is the traitor) should have been something Yuuichi considered. Yuuichi just accepts that someone did actually apply to the tomodachi game from their group and that one of them is in debt. He doesn't have the information necessary to prove that when the game starts. Now, obviously people did turn on each other, but that doesn't mean they went into the game willingly, it could just be someone afraid of debt or someone with a grudge that sees this game as an opportune time. The semantics of traitor might be causing a misunderstanding between us, but I'm using it to mean people who willingly brought the other players to the game in the first place.

Let me clarify my issues because I've been debating with more than one person and it's gotten a bit muddied.

1. The start of the game is unreasonable, the author asks us, the viewers to just accept a poor setup. We need to just accept that humans would ever willingly play this game, that they would trust the game hosts to keep their word and make the games fair and not hurt them. We also need to accept that the characters just don't have a sense of danger in the start. No fear, no logic, just go with it. Usually I would be fine with this, but the characters actions in the beginning are interwoven into how they continue with the games. It won't just let us throw out this piece of the puzzle.

2. Yuuichi's plan in 2nd game does not correctly rule out Shibe. It's entirely reasonable that a traitor may agree to the bonus. As we saw, agreeing to it gave a lot of credibility. Acting devastated by a secret they revealed makes it look like you really expected nothing to come up, meaning it looks like you must not have applied to the game. I will go more into this later.

3. Yuuichi's plan in the 2nd game does not correctly rule out or even consider the possibility of 2 traitors working together. Their motives likely aren't money if theres two of them.

Those are my issues. If 2 and 3 didn't exist as issues, then issue 1 wouldn't really be a problem, but 2 and 3 both tie back into 1.

So lets go back to 2. The idea that Shibe could have been the traitor and not gotten discovered by Yuuichi's plan. The traitor for sure knows more about the game than anyone else because they had to know something about it in order to apply. Maybe they heard from someone else that played, maybe they played themselves, maybe they know someone running the game, who knows. What we do know, is that it's very possible that the traitor knows more about the game than Yuuichi. This means they might know more about what kinds of secrets will be revealed. Perhaps they know that they would never spoil who applied with a bonus round or perhaps they know that the goal of the game is to be entertaining to the spectators and that the spectators would be more entertained if the traitor was not revealed. Yuuichi even makes an assumption and tells the group that the game is likely to be fair, because it would be boring to the spectators if it was unwinnable. Using that same logic, it's at least unlikely that the traitor would be revealed even if they decided to play the bonus game. This means Shibe should not have been cleared just for that.

Now lets move to issue 3, the dual traitor possibility. It's not safe to trust anyone just based off the first game, even if someone looked like they were getting screwed over. Taking losses early into the game in order to feed the rest a false narrative is a reasonable play traitors might do, the same way an undercover cop might do something bad in order to gain trust. The same holds true in game 2. Even though Shiho was out front in first, remember what we actually learn about the game. The bad tiles are concentrated early into the game. Therefore moving through them as fast as possible, with as many 5s as possible, and then slowing down in the 2nd half, is actually the way to clear the most debt. Even better if you have a second traitor get caught lying on purpose and jump right in front of you, also skipping many of the bad tiles in the first half of the game.

By being out front at first, it makes you the least threatening, so it's actually fairly likely that if no one is specifically targeting you (like Tenji targeted Shiho in the actual game), that being out front first could be a good thing, and you'd actually be pretty likely to end up having others catch back up. Remember, Yuuichi even proposed to have everyone else catch up to the lead player.

The fact that Yuuichi has the nametag is a bit scary, but not something you can't risk. It doesn't really matter if he has the nametag if he doesn't find out you were the traitor.

Given that Yuuichi doesn't know how future rounds work, he also can't rely on increasing debt to deter a traitor. It's possible that later rounds allow you a bonus for having more debt or a way to pin all of your debt on someone else. Whether that actually is the case or not doesn't matter, because Yuuichi can't know whether or not it is.

Basically, the motivation for doing all the things you said a traitor wouldn't do, would be to gain the trust of the other players and thats reason enough to take even large risks.

My bonus 4th issue isn't really an issue, but just kind of an annoyance. Yuuichi did not learn how lies are handled before making his final move. He did and got lucky that it worked how he hoped it would. It's possible that turn would have still progressed even after he revealed his lie and Shiho also would have lost with him. He also just didn't abuse lying movement enough. Being able to jump in front of the lead player is OP and breaks the game.

May 13, 2022 11:27 AM

#164

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564074

PurpleMagic said:
Tenjin actually kissed him, holy crap that is commitment. Pretty obvious from our perspective that he's still lying about this, but dude has the make up for what he did somehow.

that's true. i was thinking maybe it could be that

May 13, 2022 9:12 PM

#165

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Oct 2017

110

RinTheWanderer said:
These responses are getting more and more scattered and tough to keep track of since new supporting arguments keep arriving. There's a few issues and one I forgot to point out last time. The debt is not 20 million dollars. it's 20 million yen. That's like 160k dollars.

Your responses to some things are strange. All of my points are talking about what Yuuichi should be thinking, based on the information he has. For instance, if tenji is the traitor, theres no way his motivation is money. From Yuuichi's perspective, Tenji would be smart enough to get out of the debt without needing to risk the tomodachi game. If Tenji is really a scumbag enough to drag his friends to this game and foist his debt onto them, then theres no reason he wouldn't instead make the better play to blackmail Shibe's dad. The sheer fact that Tenji agreed to play the game should both gaurantee that he is a traitor and that his goal is not money. Yuuichi should be all but certain of that from the very first episode.

Additionally you keep talking about not being able to leave so maybe you forgot but in the first episode, the tomodachi game people say they can just leave. They don't have to play the game, they can go home, and the application money is forfeit but thats it. IF, and the IF is important here, IF your goal was to reduce debt or save your friends from debt, you wouldn't play this game unless you were incredibly stupid and brave. So like, maybe Shibe would play but thats it. You put any rational human in the same situation, no matter how naive or stupid they are, and they will wake up in that location terrified and think only leaving safely.

The zero traitor option (it's not my theory, obviously I watched the show and know Tenji is the traitor) should have been something Yuuichi considered. Yuuichi just accepts that someone did actually apply to the tomodachi game from their group and that one of them is in debt. He doesn't have the information necessary to prove that when the game starts. Now, obviously people did turn on each other, but that doesn't mean they went into the game willingly, it could just be someone afraid of debt or someone with a grudge that sees this game as an opportune time. The semantics of traitor might be causing a misunderstanding between us, but I'm using it to mean people who willingly brought the other players to the game in the first place.

Let me clarify my issues because I've been debating with more than one person and it's gotten a bit muddied.

1. The start of the game is unreasonable, the author asks us, the viewers to just accept a poor setup. We need to just accept that humans would ever willingly play this game, that they would trust the game hosts to keep their word and make the games fair and not hurt them. We also need to accept that the characters just don't have a sense of danger in the start. No fear, no logic, just go with it. Usually I would be fine with this, but the characters actions in the beginning are interwoven into how they continue with the games. It won't just let us throw out this piece of the puzzle.

2. Yuuichi's plan in 2nd game does not correctly rule out Shibe. It's entirely reasonable that a traitor may agree to the bonus. As we saw, agreeing to it gave a lot of credibility. Acting devastated by a secret they revealed makes it look like you really expected nothing to come up, meaning it looks like you must not have applied to the game. I will go more into this later.

3. Yuuichi's plan in the 2nd game does not correctly rule out or even consider the possibility of 2 traitors working together. Their motives likely aren't money if theres two of them.

Those are my issues. If 2 and 3 didn't exist as issues, then issue 1 wouldn't really be a problem, but 2 and 3 both tie back into 1.

So lets go back to 2. The idea that Shibe could have been the traitor and not gotten discovered by Yuuichi's plan. The traitor for sure knows more about the game than anyone else because they had to know something about it in order to apply. Maybe they heard from someone else that played, maybe they played themselves, maybe they know someone running the game, who knows. What we do know, is that it's very possible that the traitor knows more about the game than Yuuichi. This means they might know more about what kinds of secrets will be revealed. Perhaps they know that they would never spoil who applied with a bonus round or perhaps they know that the goal of the game is to be entertaining to the spectators and that the spectators would be more entertained if the traitor was not revealed. Yuuichi even makes an assumption and tells the group that the game is likely to be fair, because it would be boring to the spectators if it was unwinnable. Using that same logic, it's at least unlikely that the traitor would be revealed even if they decided to play the bonus game. This means Shibe should not have been cleared just for that.

Now lets move to issue 3, the dual traitor possibility. It's not safe to trust anyone just based off the first game, even if someone looked like they were getting screwed over. Taking losses early into the game in order to feed the rest a false narrative is a reasonable play traitors might do, the same way an undercover cop might do something bad in order to gain trust. The same holds true in game 2. Even though Shiho was out front in first, remember what we actually learn about the game. The bad tiles are concentrated early into the game. Therefore moving through them as fast as possible, with as many 5s as possible, and then slowing down in the 2nd half, is actually the way to clear the most debt. Even better if you have a second traitor get caught lying on purpose and jump right in front of you, also skipping many of the bad tiles in the first half of the game.

By being out front at first, it makes you the least threatening, so it's actually fairly likely that if no one is specifically targeting you (like Tenji targeted Shiho in the actual game), that being out front first could be a good thing, and you'd actually be pretty likely to end up having others catch back up. Remember, Yuuichi even proposed to have everyone else catch up to the lead player.

The fact that Yuuichi has the nametag is a bit scary, but not something you can't risk. It doesn't really matter if he has the nametag if he doesn't find out you were the traitor.

Given that Yuuichi doesn't know how future rounds work, he also can't rely on increasing debt to deter a traitor. It's possible that later rounds allow you a bonus for having more debt or a way to pin all of your debt on someone else. Whether that actually is the case or not doesn't matter, because Yuuichi can't know whether or not it is.

Basically, the motivation for doing all the things you said a traitor wouldn't do, would be to gain the trust of the other players and thats reason enough to take even large risks.

My bonus 4th issue isn't really an issue, but just kind of an annoyance. Yuuichi did not learn how lies are handled before making his final move. He did and got lucky that it worked how he hoped it would. It's possible that turn would have still progressed even after he revealed his lie and Shiho also would have lost with him. He also just didn't abuse lying movement enough. Being able to jump in front of the lead player is OP and breaks the game.

Ah, with those clarifications, I came to understand your points br, sh.
1. Ikr.
Rationally speaking, they should have been panic and most ppl will choose to leave immediately. I understand the mindset "Why should I help a fk friend who drag me into this s*** just because of 2M he stole and 20M he owned sb?"- So basically you just hate this setup while I find it no problem since it's a shounen manga's premise.
I'm still sticking to my guns, with small friendly reminders:
- Shibe is purely idiot; Kokorogi, weak-willed; Shiho, naive + blinded by love; Yuuichi, value his friends over anything. The starting flow was completely under Tenji's anticipation.
- If real life logics are applied everytime, most of Battle Royale stories' premises are dumb, unreasonable and unbearable, ngl. That's why it falls under a very niche category and usually the thrilling factors and pacing are most helpful ones for ppl to stay, but only brainy and psychological aspects help some different and standing out from others.
2.Disagree, but got your points.
The 2nd game's rules are very clear. No dirty tricks. The rules by itself are dirty, making friends turning on each others. So no twist for sure, the only merit at that time for the volunteer in the special chance is looking good in front of his/ her friend, may be able to gain their trust. (As we know the existence of plus space is revealed way later so by that time, advancing far looked full of demerits)
On the other hand, u mean Shibe was acting? Cmon bro, everyone in that group know that there are chances that big sum of debts might come from Shibe since he's a rich kid (So likely spending issues) but it's low probability. The thing they understand the most abt him is the fact that he's a loose mouthed idiot. There's no way he can pull it off.
If you dragged ur friend into this game, and there is a small chance that you might get busted, can you confidently volunteer for that special chance? Not to mention being busted with high survey votes mean advancing super far ahead so if it happens, 4 of them might coop to turn against you, can you win a 1 v 4? Low risk, low return but it's mostly the end if risk really occurs.
So between an willing idiot who and a reluctant all bark no bite brainmaniac (I will protect you, Shiho blah blah blah), who's more sus?
As I aldry stated my points above, Yuuichi chose one by one for his process of elimination, pretty sure this is an ez case and he even let Shibe out of the circle until last round just bcuz of Shibe's idiocy and loose tongue. He chose the most 2 vulnerable who were already likely victims of 2nd and 1st game to proceed that.
Small reminders:
The idiot even stole the spotlight from a hestitated self-proclaimed guardian of Shiho and got self-destructed. Acting? No way meh. All that and in fact, the friendly guardian and usual mediator even took advantage of that and strike harder, making friends scattered, no?
We saw Tenji's POV so we knew even with basic knowledges of the game system, Tenji was scared of small odd being busted. I understand that you are putting yourself in Yuuichi's POV with that unknown but it's a fact, Tenji acted as he was protecting Shiho from potential betrayals but he HESTITATED big time on the special chance but was ABNORMALLY FAST at exploiting the result. Tenji was unlike Tenji and Shibe as the role of bad guy is just too absurd cuz he the want ppl don't want to share secrets the most.
3.Disagree.
If you are free and interested, please read my previous post, I quoted you btw.
In that, I've analyzed the 2 traitor theory, with money and not money as the motives. It just doesn't make sense with 2 traitors.
Emphasizing matter, GOING ALONE for 3rd game was always Yuichi's plan. He knew that revealing himself as a murderer automatically distance him from everyone with huge gap but he intentionally laid that trap.
Better scenarios, his intentionally flawed plan sh worked, he might proceed the game happily with some true allies but nope, already anticipated it would FAIL miserably to make Tenji let down his guard. Look all that pathetic acting, unlike the slap, that was real acting.
I broke down the 2 traitor theory above alrdy so once again, I should say it's impossible for Shiho and Kokorogi being the traitors.
Shiho, being traitor, diving straight to hell by a large margin? Is she playing a tragic heroine? Pfft.
Kokorogi, if 1st game was a gameover, she would have had 12M in debt with the booby penalty. G9 baby. (Assuming the 7.6M in debt Shiho told Yuuichi was a lie and everyone halved their debt already by moving the coin toward No)
On the other hand, if the 7.6M in debt was real and the 1st game is a gameover, Shiho is a victim again with large booby penalty.
As long as Yuuichi are with those 2 and they could follow his instruction, he has 2 reliable allies. So it's Tenji and Shibe left for 2 traitor theory, good luck with the special chance, I don't want to break down this anymore. Let's say even if Shibe was 1 of the 2 traitors with world class acting, he is saved for the last moment so Yuuichi's plan is unchanged at all, it doesn't matter. In fact, things got heated and he was pathetically isolated from everyone.
Why reliable allies? They followed his instructions flawlessly, what do you expect more from highschooler girls?
Shiho while suffered from all those slanders, holding his nameplate for the test, didn't look at it making debt doubled and even got slapped LMAO.
Both girls acted that they were against each others's throat, secretly read the notes and did Yuuichi's bidding, easily let him take control of the nameplate for the rest of the game. If that wasn't a definition of good ally, what is?
---
Tbh, I feel that you sh underestimated the 1st game's solution or simply complicate easy matters or we might have st uncommon in the definition of TRAITOR. At this point, mine is the one who applied and dragged them into the game.
4.Agree sh, LMAO. The 2nd game's solutions and plans were superb, but it required heavy timing. I used to have an issue with that when I read it for the first time but I'm more intrigued to the traps and solutions.
The author clearly wanted to twist the timing like that to make it more brilliant, more Dues Ex Machina in casual eyes or maybe he just wanted to simplify matters (Cuz there are easy solution for the timing by you and your allies submitting more lies if you feel the timing for your plan wasn't right when the game is closed to its end, not actually hard to correct the spacing with the lie exposure penalty).

May 13, 2022 9:20 PM

#166

Wakashimazu

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Jul 2010

Easy the best ep at here.

Visite my website <3

May 14, 2022 5:50 AM

#167

Manga18

Offline

Apr 2020

145

TheMangaManiac said:
I wonder what people who screamed about how "predictable" this show is have to say after today's episode. Oh, right... nothing.
Because admitting that you're wrong takes balls x) just like with reveal that Tenji doesn't love Shiho.

Duh.

The plan makes no sense (too many ways hit can go wrong) and the final lies can't be proven as lies so shouldn0t work

May 14, 2022 6:45 AM

#168

matias067

Offline

Oct 2008

13718

oh hey gey hellow kthxbai! lolz that was unexpected homo!
5/5!!!!!!!

May 14, 2022 7:56 AM

#169

Piromysl

Offline

Jul 2015

12301

Haha now people will think this is some sort of BL show. XD

I call BS on this one. We have seen Glasses-kun scheming from his POV and absolutely nothing implied he had a gay thoughts for MC. It is most likely more of his schemes.

May 14, 2022 1:18 PM

#170

hentailuvr42069

Offline

Mar 2016

234

bro why is this show actually insane! i came in thinking it would be mid and it has be on the edge of my seat every time.........the ending of this episode had me screaming out loud!! i would've never guessed this show would make me feel this way

May 14, 2022 1:53 PM

#171

Offline

Oct 2018

141

We are getting closer to an understanding. I again reiterate that I wouldn't have as big of a problem with the poor premise if it was isolated. The fact that we need to try and figure out the characters motivations all tie back into accepting to play the game in the first place. The premise is not isolated from the rest of the story so it bugs me greatly.

--

Your assessment of the Shibe traitor theory is basically that Shibe is too dumb, but that's not a reasonable assessment to make. Yuuichi's prior understanding of his friends wouldn't allow for any of them to betray the others so clearly Yuuichi's profiling of his friends is wrong for at least the traitor. It's perfectly reasonable to think that Shibe might not have ever been a dumb loudmouth with bad acting and had instead just put on that face publicly and with his friends.

There is a famous rule of mystery writing which is "everyone should be hiding something". I can almost guarantee if Shibe continues to be relevant to the plot, it will turn out there was more to him than we currently know. That will also be true of the other characters of course as well.

Let's also look at that bonus chance from a different perspective. What could tenji have done to avoid getting caught? There's only 1 thing. He would have had to gamble on the chance bonus clearing him. That's the ONLY way he could have won. Similarly, if Shibe was the traitor, he would have HAD to take that risk or get caught, there is no other option, and therefore it is the best option and reasonable to think a traitor may go for it.

--

The two traitor theory is entirely foolproof. The results of the first 2 games can't be used by Yuuichi to deduce anything. It's entirely possible one of them intentionally started losing in order to gain trust. That's even more true if they aren't concerned about money.

The definition of a good ally? There isn't one in these games. There hasn't been anything that could possibly have cleared any of them. There's simply not enough information available. The only fool proof plan thus far would be to use lie testing to figure out who applied for the game, but that wouldn't tell you why or if they acted alone.

Let's look at the most plausible 2 traitor theory. Shibe+shiho. Shiho pretends to work with Yuuichi but tells Shibe that Yuuichi is clearing them 1 by 1. Shibe sees the bonus chance come up and volunteers for it. If shiho had been the one to officially apply (and she had control of the money last before the game), then the bonus chance would have for sure cleared Shibe.

You also talk about them not being able to act perfectly because they are highschoolers before going to explain that both girls acted perfectly to fool tenji, so which is it? Can they act or not?

I'm not even really mad at that plan Yuuichi came up with or that it had holes. It's probably better than I would have done in such a situation. I'm mad at how the show presents it, as though it is this amazing foolproof strategy and that Yuuichi must be a genius manipulator evil villain to have devised it. If they had shown Yuuichi being uncertain but figured that this was his best gamble, or if they had acted like it was impressive despite some flaws for how hastily he had to throw it together, it'd be fine. The show didn't do that though, they gave him his cringe evil face before all the characters acted like he was a monster genius. He just didn't earn that reaction. If the show is gonna act like he is incredibly cunning and devious, I expect his plan to actually be cunning and devious and not fall apart when I think about it for more than 5 minutes.

May 15, 2022 12:13 AM

#172

Offline

Jul 2016

108

RinTheWanderer said:
I'm not even really mad at that plan Yuuichi came up with or that it had holes. It's probably better than I would have done in such a situation. I'm mad at how the show presents it, as though it is this amazing foolproof strategy and that Yuuichi must be a genius manipulator evil villain to have devised it. If they had shown Yuuichi being uncertain but figured that this was his best gamble, or if they had acted like it was impressive despite some flaws for how hastily he had to throw it together, it'd be fine. The show didn't do that though, they gave him his cringe evil face before all the characters acted like he was a monster genius. He just didn't earn that reaction. If the show is gonna act like he is incredibly cunning and devious, I expect his plan to actually be cunning and devious and not fall apart when I think about it for more than 5 minutes.

I really respect you for your logical thinking and reasoning. But bruh, this of all reasons is why you spent lots of your time trying your best to find flaws in Yuuichi's strategy? It's like saying people who get A grades don't deserve to be praised by anyone. Even if Yuuichi's in the spotlight, why would you get mad? It's not like the author personally comes to your house and tells everyone Yuuichi is smarter than you so you have to defend yourself and say "Nah im not impressed. He isn't that good".

Anyway, you got it wrong. Didn't Yuuichi himself say his methods had holes? The black-haired commentator also stated that his plan was extremely risky. She was impressed by his boldness to make those moves and the fact that he could manipulate his close friends without consideration, NOT because she thought his plan was perfect. The other commentator was impressed because ... she is dumb. And don't mind his exaggerated face. It wasn't a triumphant smile but just a thing to scare his opponents. Who does he want to score brownie points with when right after that he revealed himself as a murderer? This series never calls him a genius (idk if this counts as a spoiler) because someone else will earn that title. What it truly does is constantly reminding you Yuuichi is a horrible human being, an EVIL person. You still think he's not evil enough? Fair, just keep watching.

May 15, 2022 4:05 AM

#173

Offline

Oct 2017

110

RinTheWanderer said:
We are getting closer to an understanding. I again reiterate that I wouldn't have as big of a problem with the poor premise if it was isolated. The fact that we need to try and figure out the characters motivations all tie back into accepting to play the game in the first place. The premise is not isolated from the rest of the story so it bugs me greatly.

--

Your assessment of the Shibe traitor theory is basically that Shibe is too dumb, but that's not a reasonable assessment to make. Yuuichi's prior understanding of his friends wouldn't allow for any of them to betray the others so clearly Yuuichi's profiling of his friends is wrong for at least the traitor. It's perfectly reasonable to think that Shibe might not have ever been a dumb loudmouth with bad acting and had instead just put on that face publicly and with his friends.

There is a famous rule of mystery writing which is "everyone should be hiding something". I can almost guarantee if Shibe continues to be relevant to the plot, it will turn out there was more to him than we currently know. That will also be true of the other characters of course as well.

Let's also look at that bonus chance from a different perspective. What could tenji have done to avoid getting caught? There's only 1 thing. He would have had to gamble on the chance bonus clearing him. That's the ONLY way he could have won. Similarly, if Shibe was the traitor, he would have HAD to take that risk or get caught, there is no other option, and therefore it is the best option and reasonable to think a traitor may go for it.

--

The two traitor theory is entirely foolproof. The results of the first 2 games can't be used by Yuuichi to deduce anything. It's entirely possible one of them intentionally started losing in order to gain trust. That's even more true if they aren't concerned about money.

The definition of a good ally? There isn't one in these games. There hasn't been anything that could possibly have cleared any of them. There's simply not enough information available. The only fool proof plan thus far would be to use lie testing to figure out who applied for the game, but that wouldn't tell you why or if they acted alone.

Let's look at the most plausible 2 traitor theory. Shibe+shiho. Shiho pretends to work with Yuuichi but tells Shibe that Yuuichi is clearing them 1 by 1. Shibe sees the bonus chance come up and volunteers for it. If shiho had been the one to officially apply (and she had control of the money last before the game), then the bonus chance would have for sure cleared Shibe.

You also talk about them not being able to act perfectly because they are highschoolers before going to explain that both girls acted perfectly to fool tenji, so which is it? Can they act or not?

I'm not even really mad at that plan Yuuichi came up with or that it had holes. It's probably better than I would have done in such a situation. I'm mad at how the show presents it, as though it is this amazing foolproof strategy and that Yuuichi must be a genius manipulator evil villain to have devised it. If they had shown Yuuichi being uncertain but figured that this was his best gamble, or if they had acted like it was impressive despite some flaws for how hastily he had to throw it together, it'd be fine. The show didn't do that though, they gave him his cringe evil face before all the characters acted like he was a monster genius. He just didn't earn that reaction. If the show is gonna act like he is incredibly cunning and devious, I expect his plan to actually be cunning and devious and not fall apart when I think about it for more than 5 minutes.

Bro the moment I joined this debate, I've already known that we both had some understanding and respect for each others' arguments and reasonings. But I'm afraid that we might be a bit too self-concious (and stubborn, myself only) to come to a final mutual agreement. But it was truly a fun exp.
To sum it up, I'm the guy who don't like to complicate simple matters. So that's why for me:
1.As long as Yuuichi can find at least one reliable ally, cooperator. His plan surely can work. Let me get it straight, finding the exact traitor (Who was Tenji, applied for TG and dragged them in) is just a move for show. He made it btw.
Tbh, smoking the traitor out is UNNECESSARY to the true plan. The big plan always has it and if it works, it's good; if not, it doesn't really matter. I can see many ppl who obsess on the traitor aspect miss this crucial thing.
2.Remember Yuuichi's goal, FRIEND over MONEY. At some point he really wanted for everybody to proceed the 3rd game as true friends but at the same time, going alone was always one of his option and sole goal.
No matter how MANY traitors there are, I don't think it's a concern for his plan.
And I'm sorry I'm not leaving my gun after all those analysis with different POV, 2 and above traitor theories contradict per se.
3.Furthermore, look what happened when everything was in his hand at the end, he didn't even condemn Tenji, told others to ask him about it while casually going to the 3rd game with the Tomodachi Game system as his sole enemy in mind. Tenji betrayed everyone and the group's relationship was in shambles already but it clearly showed that Yuuichi still considered them FRIENDS. Look at his self-remorse at the end, thinking that revealing the fact that he is a bona-fide murderer means mostly no way to mend the relationship with them but still doing so to save them.
Quote:
"Well, that's a relief. Now you guys can forget about me and I'll forget all about you."
"In the end, I guess this is the only way I can protect them."
Ppl might hate him for the edgy expressions, I don't. His fundamental and methodology might be unrighteous, but is that so valiant of him?
---
Extra-Back to our debate, one last time, old and mentioned reasoning but I think I need to emphasize them once more.
-I srsly don't think feigning to be the prey, victim is a good strat. It might be good on paper or the like of board games but not here.
It's real and big money on the line, traps and booby penalty included. St could go wrong and it's a big goodbye. It's impossible for Kokorogi (1st game) and Sawaragi (2nd game) to pull it off.
-It's mostly pain and no gain just to outplay the sly guy by gaining his trust. Trust is hard to build but doubt is so easy to form. Pretending to join his alliance and proceed his plan just for plain info to outwit doesn't make sense. Trying to outplay a sly guy means admitting he's smart. If he's smart, he can surely notice details and abnormalities occured in the alliance thing and since 2nd game is long, it's enough room for counter moves. Even if the game is short, even better, he will let the double-cross traitor to die by herself while even having her nameplate in his hand to look at it and double her debt out of spite.
-Frankly, the double cross theory is so dumb, logically speaking. Yuuichi do st and Sawaragi gains his so called trust, few info and she can be reverse crossed by him anytime while clearly in the lead of spaces, big danger. Yuuichi do nothing, Sawaragi is simply dead.
-For Shibe's case, let's say he has been acting as an idiot to prepare for the game as one of the traitors. Just look at Yuuichi's 2nd game solution. He left the loose mouthing idiot (Exactly the facade) out of his alliance and moves until the last moment. Shibe being one of the traitor doesn't affect his preparations and plan at all. And that's the point of mine.
-As long as having 2 reliable helpers (Impossible being traitors) to work with, tbh if it was me, I wouldn't really care if there are any traitors at all. It was clearly a 3 v 2 for me and the gears have been working exactly as I wanted and even going into 3rd game is a pain, I would get what I wanted, saving my friends. (At least 2 at that time)
---
P.S. All that said, I hope ppl do realize and appreciate Yuuichi's true objectives instead of trying to find flaws in his plan with over complicated conspiracy theories, he just wanted to PROTECT his friends, no matter WHO they are.
And he succeeded, for a reason. It also wasn't cheap or Dues Ex Machina move either, they were well thought, prepared multilayer plans.

May 15, 2022 5:40 AM

#174

Thomas_york

Offline

Mar 2022

131

I have one question. I lost track of the discussion so i don't know/remember if you made this clear, but why would Yuuichi think about a second traitor? Everything leading up to the second game makes you think there's only one traitor, right? We as spectators of a mystery show would probably think there's another traitor, but why Yuuichi in that position think about that? Excluding their relationship before the game, he would only have reasons for suspect there's one traitor, Manabu made it clear that one of them applied to the Tomodachi Game, so any strategy he could had had would be based in only one traitor, right? Unless he is really paranoid, he wouldn't think of a second traitor.

--

Now about Tenji's motive i still think it's unreasonable for Yuuichi to think Tenji's goal wasn't money, but i don't think we will reach a agreement. I mean, how would Yuuichi deduce that? Just cause Tenji is "smart" enough to try other ways? What would guarantee that he didn't try other ways before? Plus, which way is safer? Blackmailing a rich man (Shibe's dad) who can use money to find you and kill you at any time or put your friends in a game where they can leave at first and where you can play the game again if it didn't work that time? CONSIDERING that MAYBE had crossed in Yuuichi's mind that this is the traitor's second Tomodachi Game, he could easily think he's goal is money, cause probably the debt the came from the first Tomodachi Game. Plus, would be forced to Yuuichi to think that Tenji could have tried to blackmail Shibe's dad.

--

Now about Yuichi strategy:
I'm not gonna lie, while reading in the manga that he used their nametags to make them follow his orders, I found it dumb cause would not guarantee nothing, Shiho and Kokorogi could've tricked him. But after I came to a conclusion that was actually quiet reasonable. Let's suppose Shiho was the traitor, and that her objective is to get rid of her debt, yes? By receiving a paper from Yuuichi asking her to help him in finding who the traitor is, what would be the most logical thing to do? Gain Yuuichi's trust of course. She did even say she wanted to help Yuuichi in the first game. So, if Yuuichi, trying to prove Shiho is clear, asks her to write a secret that only both of them know and asks for her nametag (Again, considering the traitor's problem was monay), the most logical think as traitor would be to gain Yuuichi's trust by doing what he asked. It would be meaningless and dangerous to write another secret with this in mind. Therefore if there were any other big reveal, it couldn't be Shiho. Of course she could try and write another secret but would not make sense logically speaking.
Of course there's flaws in his strategy and I doubt Yuuichi didn't think about these flaws, but again, it was the best strategy at the moment

Thomas_yorkMay 15, 2022 5:53 AM

May 15, 2022 5:42 AM

#175

Thomas_york

Offline

Mar 2022

131

newluminous said:

I think i quoted you by mistake, sorry lol

May 15, 2022 8:39 PM

#176

Tyreesama

Offline

Jan 2021

149

phantomfandom said:
It's a big win, LOVE WINS! Even if I have 100 chances to predict how this episode will end I would never predict that kiss, considering that I'm also BL too. I bet even the smart ass Yuichi didn't see this coming LOL.

I need more BL twist like this in other anime, don't let Tomodachi Game be the only one in this path (sure, it's not the only one, but still very rare). I need to make it normal to have a guy kiss a guy.

nah we dont needa make that normal at all😂

May 15, 2022 11:38 PM

#177

Ardi8

Offline

Jan 2022

355

This anime always give plot twist on every episode and I love it, although I can't keep up for what happened from the start until like 2/3 of this episode. That BL fanservice though...I'm speechless lol

May 16, 2022 1:12 AM

#178

samashi20

Offline

Jan 2020

3408

This is ridiculous. The plot twist is nowhere near interesting or appealing.

I sometimes forget to finish my sentences.

May 16, 2022 6:26 AM

#179

Keikya

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Sep 2020

Lmao tf Tenji suddenly 🗿

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May 16, 2022 8:57 AM

#180

Offline

Oct 2018

141

Was a little busy yesterday, anyway.

1.Why would Yuuichi assume theres another traitor? He wouldn't assume there is for sure, but it's a very real possibility, one he can't afford to discount.

2. Money? You guys are thinking too short term. Gaining trust is worth more than reducing some of your debt. All that matters is getting rid of ALL of your debt. Being blinded by temporary reduction is failing to think ahead.

3. Tenji money? It is 100% less risky to piss off one rich guy with shady connections than to enter a facility run by people that can kidnap you off the street and have the resources tomodachi game does. If tenji has already been in a tomodachi game and knows it's safe and trustworthy, then maybe it'd make more sense to bring people there, but only if he is sure he can win, which means he must have more knowledge about the game and how to win it.

4. Shiho betrayal ability. Yuuichi has the same weakness that Tenji does, he is stuck in the box for 3 minutes. Anything can happen during that time. Shiho could easily influence someone else to write a big secret in order to clear her, even if they weren't a traitor, just through normal manipulation. She could even give someone else the secret that only she knows and have them write that while she writes a bigger secret. By using the paper to talk to shiho, he also introduced the idea of using paper to talk in secret to shiho and she could use that to talk to anyone covertly.

Shiho is actually still very suspicious. She made a lot of suspicious moves, even deciding to play the game, and the reasoning is a sudden confession to Yuuichi, but that could easily be bullshit just to cover her tracks much in the same way tenji saying he loved Yuuichi was. She made a move to get the smartest person in the group aside from tenji who clearly has beef with her on her side right away. Wouldn't be all that surprised to learn she knew about the tomodachi game too, even if she didn't apply for it or work with tenji. As a viewer we have to assume tenji isn't just in love with shiho based on his willingness to go onto the 3rd game without her. He seems to have legitimate hatred for her. If we consider tenji as a somewhat decent person for going forward with Yuuichi, it stands to reason shiho probably isn't. Pair that with her suspicious early game movements and the idea that she was manipulating Yuuichi to trust her and I'm starting to get the idea she isn't so nice.

5. Prey/victim not a good strat. This is high stakes, thats the most important time to use the best strats. You don't apply for something as risky as the tomodachi game without being willing to take big risks for big gain. Being out in front in 2nd game in the first half only seems scary. How far ahead you are doesn't really matter until the 2nd half and again aside from trust, theres merit to skipping as many of the first half spaces as possible and going as slowly as possible in the 2nd half to hit as many debt reducing spaces as possible. There's also a silver bullet that was never used in the game, a way to assure you won't lose. Simply have lied to your friend all along. Doesn't even have to be too big. For instance, Yuuichi had told shiho he once didn't shower for a week, but that wasn't necessarily true. If Yuuichi had lied about that, then he could bust Shiho for lying on the card and force her in front. Any of them could have done that with the same method. Ask the person to badmouth you with something only they know, that you happen to know is a lie. Hell, you could even tell them a lie right there in the game and tell them to write it about you, only to reveal later it wasn't true and force into losing.

6. Bonus. Yuuichi's intentions of helping his friends over money could be used to defuse the nametag hostage as well. If he really wants to help his friends, even if they are betraying him, then it stands to reason he would never look at the tag and double their debt. His friends probably don't know that, but it means the nametags was a bluff all along.

7. Evil. Yuuichi has not displayed ANY evil methods yet. Nothing he has done is any more evil than the average game of werewolf or among us or whatever version of that game you want to use is. The game IS manipulating people, thats expected, theres nothing wrong with doing it in this context, and they weren't used for evil purposes either. If he had gotten 2-3 nametags and then commanded them to badmouth one other player in order to force that player to lose so Yuuichi could escape debt, that would have been evil, but he didn't do anything remotely like that. Granted, we will see what he does in the future, but if it was necessary to win and his goal is good, it's pretty much impossible for him to be evil going forward.

May 16, 2022 12:40 PM

#181

Rickydory123

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Dec 2016

1407

What's up with that ending, that was so unexpected XD

And that kiss scene was so comically animated XD

I'm really curious about why Tenji wants to continue this game so badly also they even said it's his second time playing tomodachi game.

But does that mean we won't be seeing the other characters anymore since they didn't qualify for the third round.

May 17, 2022 12:53 AM

#182

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Jul 2016

108

RinTheWanderer said:

7. Evil. Yuuichi has not displayed ANY evil methods yet. Nothing he has done is any more evil than the average game of werewolf or among us or whatever version of that game you want to use is. The game IS manipulating people, thats expected, theres nothing wrong with doing it in this context, and they weren't used for evil purposes either. If he had gotten 2-3 nametags and then commanded them to badmouth one other player in order to force that player to lose so Yuuichi could escape debt, that would have been evil, but he didn't do anything remotely like that. Granted, we will see what he does in the future, but if it was necessary to win and his goal is good, it's pretty much impossible for him to be evil going forward.

Just because the game expects you to do something bad, doesn't mean willingly doing so is justified. Imagine a survial game where you have to kill people to be the only one alive. Ik noone dies in this game, but it also involves real people, with real debts. It's not just a game for entertainment, and it could destroy lives.

I also think Yuuichi is not that evil. But he's definitely not a genuinely good person. Manipulating people is bad enough, not to mention doing that to your close friends, with no hesitation. Idk about you but that's fucked up to me. One doesn't need to do bad things for his own sake to be called evil. That's "selfish". What is the definition of "evil"? morally bad, cruel, unpleasant.

The end does not justify the means. Look at Light Yagami. He wanted to create a world with no criminals. Is his goal good? Yes. Before he encountered L, did he do what he thought is necessary to achieve his goal? Yes. Is he evil? Needless to say. So yeah, it not impossible for Yuuichi to be evil if he uses more extreme methods. Hell, Yuuichi might already be evil. It was confirmed in this episode he killed people.

newluminousMay 17, 2022 1:05 AM

May 17, 2022 5:18 AM

#183

opbt

Offline

Aug 2021

Guys I don’t get it How does Tenji Even like YUICHI
Flashback to ep 3,they show him stalking Shiho Like it’s his job and daily routine it has no signs of him Liking him.There was no evidence In the last other than the moment in ep 6 where he kissed yuichi.Anyone could have kiss YUICHI with no Concrete evidence of the past of liking him.
I just can’t understand how the act of kissing YUICHI is enough to tell him it’s a lie I DONT GET IT

May 17, 2022 7:01 AM

#184

Offline

Jul 2016

108

opbt said:
Guys I don’t get it How does Tenji Even like YUICHI
Flashback to ep 3,they show him stalking Shiho Like it’s his job and daily routine it has no signs of him Liking him.There was no evidence In the last other than the moment in ep 6 where he kissed yuichi.Anyone could have kiss YUICHI with no Concrete evidence of the past of liking him.
I just can’t understand how the act of kissing YUICHI is enough to tell him it’s a lie I DONT GET IT

Because liking/loving is an emotional thing. You can't concretely prove Tenji loves Yuuichi and you also can't prove otherwise. Now between stalking Shiho vs actually sexual assaulting Yuuichi by forced kissing, which is more extreme? Maybe it's still not enough to prove Tenji loves Yuuichi but it's believable enough for the "Gods" to tell his love for Shiho was a lie (they don't even know about the stalking, only we readers know). Anw, i think he doesn't love either.

newluminousMay 17, 2022 7:16 AM

May 17, 2022 11:09 AM

#185

Offline

Oct 2018

141

newluminous said:
Just because the game expects you to do something bad, doesn't mean willingly doing so is justified. Imagine a survial game where you have to kill people to be the only one alive. Ik noone dies in this game, but it also involves real people, with real debts. It's not just a game for entertainment, and it could destroy lives.

I also think Yuuichi is not that evil. But he's definitely not a genuinely good person. Manipulating people is bad enough, not to mention doing that to your close friends, with no hesitation. Idk about you but that's fucked up to me. One doesn't need to do bad things for his own sake to be called evil. That's "selfish". What is the definition of "evil"? morally bad, cruel, unpleasant.

The end does not justify the means. Look at Light Yagami. He wanted to create a world with no criminals. Is his goal good? Yes. Before he encountered L, did he do what he thought is necessary to achieve his goal? Yes. Is he evil? Needless to say. So yeah, it not impossible for Yuuichi to be evil if he uses more extreme methods. Hell, Yuuichi might already be evil. It was confirmed in this episode he killed people.

Context matters and people misunderstand end justifying the means. It's like the trolly problem. The end of saving 5 people justifies actively killing someone else even though the action you are taking is murdering an innocent person, you are still morally good. Killing someone in a survival death game is NOT an immoral action, it is justified. You have equal right to live as they do, so you have the right to fight to survive.

If a psycho kidnaps you and your family and says you have to kill your father or else he will kill both your father and mother, does killing your father make you evil? No.

And looking at less dramatic context, people are happy to manipulate and lie to friends in games. Theres games whose entire point is to do that.

When a hero asks the villain "so the ends justify the means for you?". This is talking about this specific scenario most of the time. Ends justifying the means is how everyone lives their lives. The ends of having a full stomach justifies the means of getting food and eating it. The ends of making yourself rich does not justify the means of murdering innocent people, presumably. Although you could make an argument that you could save more people than you hurt with all the money you made so even that isn't so cut and dry.

May 17, 2022 1:57 PM

#186

Offline

Jul 2016

108

RinTheWanderer said:

Ok i don't wanna dive too much into that "trolly problem" topic. My point is manipulating people is immoral. And by applying your logic, his doings aren't even justified because the game didn't even tell him to do so. The game just told you to badmouth people. Just stick to that and you can win while keeping yourself clean. Why do you keep bringing harmless board games where lies hurt noone here? I told you this is not a game just for entertainment and real lives are on the line.

Note that i added "willingly"/"without consideration"/"with no hesitation" when i talked about Yuuichi's actions. A genuinely good person even when forced to do something bad would think twice or even feel guilty. Yuuichi doesn't. He even enjoys seeing terrified and desperate faces after his victories which is unnecessary. This tells us something about his nature.

Back to my main point because this went too far from my goal. This show will continue label him as "horrible person", "low life", "monster", "demon", "devil", etc while letting you see good things in him. So keep in mind this show doesn't try to make him look better than you and whether you should defend him or not is up to you. Furthermore, this series is not all about Yuuichi outsmarting his opponents but how low he could stoop to achieve his objectives. Sometimes his methods are so dirty, underhanded and risky you don't even bother to find flaws in his plans. Hope this clears your misunderstandings about the series. Don't get mad over nothing. Stay cool and enjoy the show!

newluminousMay 17, 2022 2:04 PM

May 17, 2022 4:33 PM

#187

Offline

Oct 2018

141

My point is him manipulating people is NOT immoral. All actions require context before judging if it is or is not immoral. Killing someone is wrong, except when it isn't. Lying is the same way. If the actions you took were the actions you thought would achieve the best outcome, including the ramifications of your actions, it's a good and moral action. No action by itself is evil. There can always be a context that could justify it.

I am hesitant to think of what he even could do in order to be a monster in this game. Given the life altering outcomes, even murder could be justified fairly easily.

And this is on the scale of fiction anyway. You have characters like lelouch sacrificing MILLIONS of innocent people to achieve his objective. Literally enslaving them and then sending them into nuclear bombs. I'm pretty positive those actions will end up being far worse than anything in this series, and yet, there is a real solid argument to be made that lelouch was a good person.

So far it really feels like Yuuichi's title of horrible person and monster is completely unearned and it just feels pathetic of the author. Perhaps we will see some actually horrible actions later on but I'm pessimistic of it.

May 17, 2022 10:09 PM

#188

Offline

Jul 2016

108

RinTheWanderer said:
My point is him manipulating people is NOT immoral. All actions require context before judging if it is or is not immoral. Killing someone is wrong, except when it isn't. Lying is the same way. If the actions you took were the actions you thought would achieve the best outcome, including the ramifications of your actions, it's a good and moral action. No action by itself is evil. There can always be a context that could justify it.

I am hesitant to think of what he even could do in order to be a monster in this game. Given the life altering outcomes, even murder could be justified fairly easily.

And this is on the scale of fiction anyway. You have characters like lelouch sacrificing MILLIONS of innocent people to achieve his objective. Literally enslaving them and then sending them into nuclear bombs. I'm pretty positive those actions will end up being far worse than anything in this series, and yet, there is a real solid argument to be made that lelouch was a good person.

So far it really feels like Yuuichi's title of horrible person and monster is completely unearned and it just feels pathetic of the author. Perhaps we will see some actually horrible actions later on but I'm pessimistic of it.

Let's say hadn't Light Yagami encountered L, he would have kept doing what he thought would achieve the best outcome that is a world with no criminals: kill every criminal he sees from like pickpockets to murderers everyday. So are you telling me that's fine and NOT IMMORAL at all? omg that mindset of yours is unbelievable. wth did L think.

Deep down inside Lelouch may be a good person. But he knew his wrongdoings were immoral enough to feel guilty about it. His

wasn't in his original plan. It was something more selfish: revengence. Yes he sacrificed MILLIONS of innocent people for his own selfishness. Without what he did in the end which he didn't initially intend to do, would you support someone like him irl? Massacring a whole crowd by a car in order to kill one person then saving people from a car accident doesn't magically make his crime go away. That just means he is redeemable.

Bro you can like other fictions how you want to. But in Tomodachi Game world, by its standards Yuuichi's actions were immoral then they were immoral. And it doesn't really contradict with our real world standards so what's so hard to accept? A serial-killer being able to get away with their crimes while looking good in one work doesn't mean this series has to do the same. If anything, i find it better for this show to speak ill of Yuuichi than encourage ppl to manipulate their close ones thinking that's good for them.

With your mindset im honestly fraid even when later

, you would still think it's fine and good.

newluminousMay 17, 2022 10:54 PM

May 18, 2022 10:11 AM

#189

AhriTheS3xyFox

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Sep 2015

2661

It was obvious that Tenji would intervene and go with Yuichi to the next game, knowing that the reactions of the screen time only showed the reactions of the other two. It felt rather sudden as to why he liked Yuichi.

August 6th 2023: Biggest upset ever, deception, selfishness, or scammed, manipulated. Heavy damage costs, and more. Days since: 15 Last updated: 8/21/2023

One Piece Episode 1041 & 1042 & 1047 & 1048 & 95.75%/1049 & 1053 were a mistake and Uta brought the salvation -AhriTheS3xyFox

May 18, 2022 10:17 AM

#190