almozayaf said: I doubt those will get removed, because they have some traditional animation in them as well, just like Akiba-chan.so Bakemongatari and Kuchu Buranko will remove to :( On topic: there are also many anime on the database that have non-japanese source material, including Batman: Gotham Knight (American), The Moomins (Finnish) and Cheburashka (Russian) and many more. There are also anime with directors who originally came from foreign countries, most notably Tekkon Kinkreet, which was directed by American-born Michael Arias (although he might have dual-nationality with him living in Japan for so long). I accept that these anime may have differences from their source material with Stitch! and Demashitaa! Powerpuff Girls Z having major differences from their source material, but are these really more "anime" than a 100% Japanese stop-motion animation? EDIT: Before anyone misunderstands me, I am not saying those anime shouldn't be on the anime database, I am just saying that they are not "pure" anime. |
Rosa_FOEtidaOct 21, 2009 11:42 AM
Current FAL Ranking + Previous best::  [ |
shinkeikaku said: freedoleen said: Sorry, I know this is off-topic, but I DO want to point out that manga is only part of a very large series of manga that explore all sorts of literature in manga form. It's not getting special treatment--it was added to the db because someone read it. If I decided to buy Christmas Carol or Don Quixote, they would be added too.Regarding Waga Tousou, this isn't the time and place to discuss it, but allow me to ask - is Mein Kampf banned in USA? Because if it's not, I don't see why we shouldn't list the manga adaptation of it in our database. Seriously please dont refer to the works of Adolf Hitler as Literature. Your talking about a man who is directly responsibly for the murder of 10s of millions of people. Just because something isnt banned (in the USA) doesnt mean it deserves to be read or glorified. I dont see the value that it has and doesnt serve any purpose. It also may not be banned but I would bet you would have a hard time if not impossible task of actually purchasing a copy of it from a respectable bookseller. |
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ff_rubberducky said: technically nightmare and coralaine were NOT claymation. they were foam latex puppets. aardman is a different story I know but let's not confuse the unsuspecting bystanders further :P. Both are made using different materials but they are animated with the techniques of claymation. Since everyone knows of'em I used them to ring a bell. |
| In Riemann, Hilbert or in Banach space Let superscripts and subscripts go their ways Our asymptotes no longer out of phase, We shall encounter, counting, face to face. |
Skadi said: Seriously please dont refer to the works of Adolf Hitler as Literature. Your talking about a man who is directly responsibly for the murder of 10s of millions of people. Just because something isnt banned (in the USA) doesnt mean it deserves to be read or glorified. I dont see the value that it has and doesnt serve any purpose. It also may not be banned but I would bet you would have a hard time if not impossible task of actually purchasing a copy of it from a respectable bookseller. Whether or not it is literature, it has been adapted into a manga (or at least, portions of it have, the manga is largely biographical and doesn't cover much of Mein Kampf). We have a manga database. We keep track of manga. We're not here to make moral assertions. The entry serves a purpose, obviously - just as all the other manga entries serve a purpose. It has nothing to do with glorification. I can walk into any chain bookstore in the United States and purchase a copy of Mein Kampf. I could also check it out from any public library. It's quite easy. I think you are unfamiliar with the adaptation itself, though. If you had read it you would not be so offended. It's not propaganda at all, in fact it ends a rather nasty historical epilogue which attempts to reverse whatever positive feeling one might have found in the pages before it. edit: I think copies of Mein Kampf are legal in some areas of Europe when heavily annotated, correct? It's much like that. |
| I dont really want to come across as the PC Police on it. I think its odd that its listed. I think its humorous too that Mods are so gung-ho about removing non traditional and unoffensive animation from the database yet will defend the right of Hilter's work to remain. I havent read the manga and I never will, nor will I try to buy a copy. I dont know if you can buy it here or not. I have no desire to read it even though I have been called a Nazi on this site before because someone was upset at something I said. Despite the fact I am not even German. |
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tehnominator said: I still maintain that if they are not including stop motion, get CGI animation off this site immediately, because judging by the criteria you are putting forward, CGI cannot fall under the title of "anime". So remove Final Fantasy Advent Children (which they won't, because of the the fangirls and boys) and Appleseed. CGI looks nothing like anime, in fact it looks like video games, and they are utilising the medium used for creating VGs to create an animation. I maintain that if it's animation from Japan or animation that follows a specific generic style, then it must be anime. In fact, take off all of the works by Kunio Katou because he uses European art styles and techniques for his anime. Since it is not "anime" according what the MAL mods put forward and it's animation, then surely you'd remove it, right? And we're not asking for video games or J Dramas. We're asking for Japanese animation to be listed on a site for anime. Quoted for truth! |
Well one thing I've learned from this experience, is that a princess is still a princesss even when she is naked. |
Skadi said: I dont really want to come across as the PC Police on it. I think its odd that its listed. I think its humorous too that Mods are so gung-ho about removing non traditional and unoffensive animation from the database yet will defend the right of Hilter's work to remain. I havent read the manga and I never will, nor will I try to buy a copy. I dont know if you can buy it here or not. I have no desire to read it even though I have been called a Nazi on this site before because someone was upset at something I said. Despite the fact I am not even German. Take it to the manga support board please if you really want to continue, but Plate answered it pretty sufficiently. It's manga, we list manga. Literature isn't even my words, following the link I gave you, the "tag line" for that series contains "名作文学" which means "masterpiece literature." Highly questionable considering some of the works they list there, but take it up with THEM, not us, since we weren't the ones who made it into manga. |
| I hate to quote Wikipedia, but for a historical reference I will. Clay animated films were produced in the United States as early as 1908... In 1916, clay animation became something of a fad, as an East Coast artist named Helena Smith Dayton and a West Coast animator named Willie Hopkins produced clay animated films on a wide range of subjects... But by the 1920s, cartoon animation using either cels or the slash system was firmly established as the dominant mode of animation production. Increasingly, three-dimensional forms such as clay were driven into relative obscurity as the cel method became the preferred method for the studio cartoon. To me, this establishes stop motion/claymation anime as a true traditional animated style. Animation starting from 1908 and becoming something of a fad by 1916 sounds traditional to me, even considering its subsequent falls and rises in popularity throughout it's 101 year presence as an animated medium. I know if I was on an American animation social/list fan-site I would be appalled to find I couldn't add Rudolph or Frosty the Snowman to my list. I'm not saying that I'm even a fan of Japanese stop motion animation (except for Kotatsu Cat), but I might become a fan with adequate exposure. I just believe it wouldn't hurt anyone if it stayed, and it shows another side of Japanese anime while still on here, regardless of it being out of fashion atm. Taking it off just seems nearsighted, like removing Waga Tousou (threw-up in my mouth a little there) would be. I'm deeply offended by works that spew hateful ideologies as well as schoolgirls getting raped by tentacle monsters as an entertainment source for anybody, but I'd be more offended if it was removed because of the personal objections of people like me. I know you have your objections over Japanese stop motion animation, I respect them, but I see Japanese S.M.A. (even though this is only my personal opinion) as valuable to the community here, and anime as a whole. |
CorallineAlgaeOct 21, 2009 3:11 PM
| Why would they wanna take it off it they put it on here in the first place!? :s But anyways I think they should keep it on here because well its a form of animation! I mean sure people could debate for a long time about it but in the end its still a kind of animation weather it be drawn or acted out and stuff, I mean its one thing if its a live action but stop animation are different right......but i mean its like art some people don't consider anime a type of art but it is still art....I don't think this should even be an issue on here tho.......sorry for starting to ramble...^-^; |
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~Well said, CorallineAlgae...well said. I agree with you on all counts. The debate is an interesting one but I see the writing on the wall already. Those of us who admire the works of the Japanese masters, who have made themselves known through stop motion animation, well, though we be a small group...according the the MAL Mods, we don't know what animation truly is or do we? Of course we don't know what real animation is, I mean 'The Demon' was awesome, but does that mean anything? Nope. Of course not, so long as the popular forms of animation stay up. I like honestly like stop animation just as much if not more then your average CG flick. |
I won't be fooled by a mere 3-d girl!!! |
Skadi said: I dont really want to come across as the PC Police on it. I think its odd that its listed. I think its humorous too that Mods are so gung-ho about removing non traditional and unoffensive animation from the database yet will defend the right of Hilter's work to remain. In the eyes of many users we never do anything right anyway. E. g. you all scream 'consistency, consistency!' all the time but when we do something along those lines and it affects something you're this irrational and stubborn about, everyone's heading for the barricades. The points listed by my fellow moderators and admin are all very much valid and we are drawing the line here. |
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| First off, I would like to say that I don't have much to add to this discussion. I am neither an expert nor pretend to be one. However, After much discussion between the mod staff about this issue for the past few months, I back the decision 100% One thing that everyone has to remember is that MAL is in no way shape or form trying to define what Anime is as a whole. So all the arguments defining anime are very detailed, but not relevant to this discussion. What MAL mods are trying to do is define our database, define what can or cannot be listed. Every argument and point you are raising has been discussed or deliberated. This wasn't a decision that was made lightly. So I apologize for the staff if it feels like we are just glazing over your arguments. We definitely aren't. We have taken many many factors into consideration in reaching this conclusion, and the staff as a whole came to an agreement. This wasn't something that was decided between one or two people, but everyone came together to make a decision. Right now, this discussion is getting very repetitive. The same points are being made over and over on both sides. We totally and completely understand the points you all are making, I just hope you are taking the time to comprehend ours as well. omotenium said: Really, that's most of them? That few? Then why is it such a problem you have to remove them? Is anyone bothered by their inclusion? Currently the mod staff is working on defining the DB, as has been said on previous forum posts. Soon there will be guidelines that will be posted that define everything a bit more. As cyruz stated, users had been complaining lately that there hasn't been any consistancy. The Mod staff came together and agreed that there needed to be more set guidelines, and our previous belief system was a bit lax. The mods weren't on the same page, and it was decided we should be. In setting up these guidelines, it required that we evaluate even the smallest of instances in the DB. While there has been several discussions on change, this one happened to come about a bit sooner. |
AaranaOct 21, 2009 4:03 PM
| "Many users don't feel it's anime". So? There are people that don't even consider Mononoke (the tv series) an anime. As far as I know, stop motion is considered animation. Anime is the japanese word for Animation. Therefore stopmotion is anime. And isn't MAL dedicated (mainly) to that? Seriously tough, deleting those is ridiculous. I know I won't be very glad to have them removed from my list. |
| Nobody is disputing the fact that stop-motion animation is animation, we simply don't consider it anime. The two are not interchangeable. As has been stated before the definition for anime varies from person to person and from country to country. MAL's forthcoming official definition of anime is Kineta said: Could we have included stop-motion animation in that definition? Of course we could have, but imho it's simply too different from what I'd consider anime and actually closer to live-action than it is to anime....traditional or computer animation produced in Japan for a Japanese market. Anyway, this post by Kineta mirrors my own views of this issue. In the end, it's just a definition and our definition doesn't include stop-motion for the reasons already stated. |
| I can not really add alot to this debate that has preceded this - only yes they may not be mainstream and we could be in the minority of the MAL user community who appreciate such works and have a deep knowledge on the material but that should be one of the reasons J' SMA should be on the D/Base. The most important thing to me (apart from the users) is the database which should include all Japanese animation - thereby people can reccomend series, OVA etc.. to their friends etc.. which is I am sure it was created in the first place. But to decide that a handful should be taken down due to a few moderators opinion with out any dialogue/debate to the general MAL population is not only mis-guided but an abuse of their pseudo power. It should be obvious here that there is alot of people who are very upset - even in my own club people are debating the issue - and can not even comprehend the moderators decision. You have to also realise that there are alot of Eastern European users who were brought up on SMA and that is how they got into anime in the first place (though not East European it was certainly the road I went down to get here). And what is anime? The debate will go on forever and a day. All I hope is that the moderators get together and rethink their decision as obviously this being already the 61st post that we are not only very passionate about our Japanese Anime history but also the good work that MAL and its staff do. |
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| Stop animation is a form of animation. Whether it's just really limited animation, or claymation or whatever. Anime uses the 'limited animation' technique, which is pretty close to stop animation. It gets way too obscure when you try and separate the two. If full animation was better than limited animation, all of us would be watching cartoons instead of anime. Sometimes less animation is better animation. It's really not fair to say one thing is animation, and something else isn't, because of the animation quality. Frames per second and what you do to make it is irrelevant. Animating 3d objects is the same as claymation. CGI is also difficult to justify. Stop animation is as traditional as it gets. Here's the first animations to ever exist to give an example, and yes, it's animation. Does it kind of suck? Yes, but it's still animation whether I like it or not. The materials they use to make animation is irrelevant. Take a look at cartoon South Park, all paper cut-outs. So, it's not a cartoon? Just because there's no such thing as paper-cut-outmation. I think it's a cartoon, just a different type. Defining what is and isn't animation is just way too obscure and difficult for people that know anything about it. edit: Whenever I hear people argue on this site about what doesn't qualify as 'anime.' They always seem to say, "Anime is animation made in Japan." Or, "anime was created around the 1960s with Astro Boy." There's a lot of anime on this site that isn't considered anime. This includes older animation from the early 1920s and '30s. I think it's anime, and history books would agree.. |
Manga_samaOct 21, 2009 4:52 PM
Aarana said: Currently the mod staff is working on defining the DB, as has been said on previous forum posts. Soon there will be guidelines that will be posted that define everything a bit more. As cyruz stated, users had been complaining lately that there hasn't been any consistancy. The Mod staff came together and agreed that there needed to be more set guidelines, and our previous belief system was a bit lax. The mods weren't on the same page, and it was decided we should be. Okay, that I can get. The mods weren't on the same page, people were crying about inconsistencies, and you all put in the hard work to find a common understanding. That's actually really commendable! Great job to whoever decided to make that move. Honestly. I respect the hell out of that. I'd just like to see our opinions considered thoughtfully. I guess the matter was closed long before this whole debate started. It would be a kind gesture to see the staff bend on such a small issue. We really believe in our position. I suppose it looks like a small number of people who care about this. I guess if it meant the WHOLE STAFF would be on the same page about the scope of the site's database it would mean, in the end, that many more arguments like this would be settled by way of the newly written mandate, as opposed to fighting over it. Wise decision. You'll have a lot less personal defending of each point, and EVERYBODY will know just what MAL is and isn't. Seems obvious now (almost after the fact). I'm behind that 100%. I can't imagine it wasn't clarified sooner. MAL is what it is. It should be just that, and it should to be clearly stated. Still, we're all hoping you'll bend just a little. We're only asking you to include some Japanese animation titles. That seems like an entirely reasonable, and easily doable request. |
CorallineAlgaeOct 22, 2009 5:47 AM
| I haven't seen this topic yet, but basically the issue is; MAL Staff said "Stop-Motion Animation" isn't "Anime"? Or did some other issues involve? Could someone generalize the topic so I don't have to read all 4 pages of pixels? |
| One simple question here: Have the Japanese produced anything that's "stop-motion"? |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
KyuuA4 said: One simple question here: Have the Japanese produced anything that's "stop-motion"? READ BEFORE YOU POST. I have to disagree with the mods here, but I would rather have them write up some actual guidelines than have every mod with a different opinion approving different things. :/ |
Spunkie said: ff_rubberducky said: technically nightmare and coralaine were NOT claymation. they were foam latex puppets. aardman is a different story I know but let's not confuse the unsuspecting bystanders further :P. . lol! good point. sighs...i think at this point in the conversation we are at a standstill and i agree that things are starting to get a wee bit repeatative. neither side of the debate really wants to give in or seem to want to really listen to what the other says. but hey! isnt that how these things usually roll? i think im just going to sit back and watch how this plays out for the time being. but lord only knows something will be said that will have me bang my head agaist the desk and i wont be able to help making some kind of comment. ;) |
| I thought that anime (for those of us outside Japan) meant any animation produced by the Japanese for the Japanese audience. Apparently, here in MAL(MyAnimeList) it would be excluding certain animations because of quite arbitrary (but admittedly long thought out) opinions. That is - Animation from Japan is not anime in MAL's database if it is not cel or CGI animated (Kineta's post). Quite contrary to any intelligent person seeing the true meaning of anime. Some food for thought: 1. Kawamoto succeeded Osamu Tezuka as President of the Japan Animation Association. Kawamoto's name is pretty well established within anime circles in back home due to his position as President of the Japan Animation Association, a role he inherited from Astroboy creator and the grandfather of the modern manga Osamu Tezuka when he died in 1989. The JAA regularly put together programs to promote the newest and best of Japanese animation as well as old classics. 2. Other anime websites (AniDB and ANN) lists Kawamoto's works and consider them as anime. Of course, they would because it is anime! Perhaps you feel that you, mods, after thinking it over, should be different from them. These two sites are respected anime sites and are actually MAL's resources when adding to the database. 3. A few stop action anime does not seem to be jeopardizing the servers. Why not let it be? 4. We do want consistency in our database...and THIS is your answer? I'm not belittling your work. Far from it. I don't want to seem ungrateful for all the work and, for most of the time, the prompt response you give when I ask questions. It's just that, the definition that you gave 'anime' is quite arbitrary and flies in the face of common sense. Thank you for your time... |
cyruz said: Skadi said: I dont really want to come across as the PC Police on it. I think its odd that its listed. I think its humorous too that Mods are so gung-ho about removing non traditional and unoffensive animation from the database yet will defend the right of Hilter's work to remain. In the eyes of many users we never do anything right anyway. E. g. you all scream 'consistency, consistency!' all the time but when we do something along those lines and it affects something you're this irrational and stubborn about, everyone's heading for the barricades. The points listed by my fellow moderators and admin are all very much valid and we are drawing the line here. You know I am not screaming nor being irrational. I think the Mods are being just as stubborn. I am quite annoyed with the response I have gotten from the Mods. Its been lock step unity, I guess I can understand that, you made a decision and you have to show solidarity. However it seems almost every regular user has posted here is in disagreement of the official position. What ticks me off and I know it does others is you dont seem to even acknowledge that our viewpoint even counts or matters. I mean I am sure you all were regular users like us at one point right? I know that you think what your doing is right and will be an improvement for MAL going down the road. You know I like and care about this website as much as any of you do as well. Why not just make a separate category, you know how Series, Movies, ONA, OVAs are divided up, call it Experimental or whatever. Then it can be separated from the traditional forms. It can still be listed in the DB but it wouldnt be alongside the rest of the series. User could then find these films more easily or exclude them if they are uninterested. |
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| Across the 4 pages of this thread, i've seen users giving solid and backed arguments that definitely relates J'SMA animation to the 'anime' concept (especially regarding Kawamoto's work). Definitions of diverse animation techniques, opinions from art students, facts about the creators, etc. And every mod answer is "we won't include SMA because we decided it doesn't belong to the MAL database". And why? "because we decided it so". With answers like that, asking users to continue the discussion seems more like a sarcastic offense rather than an invitation to really talk about the matter. And the "because it's not popular" argument... ewww. In the end, you know the MAL Database's "aim". Looks like we don't. And if we aren't on the same ground, this discussion will remain useless. Please don't remove SMA. Not now. First show us the new guidelines and let the debate about "experimental" animation forms start then. Deleting stuff based on assumptions and decisions unknown to the users on a user-based website is wrong and disrespectful. |
CanopusOct 22, 2009 10:49 AM
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cyruz said: In the eyes of many users we never do anything right anyway. E. g. you all scream 'consistency, consistency!' all the time but when we do something along those lines But you dont. You dont do anything. A problem occurs, it's pointed out, we get a 'the mods discussed it' reply and the problem is swept under the rug. Dirty rug. I'm not gonna be staying in this thread, so my opinion before I leave: if it's made by Japanese for Japanese, then it's anime and belongs on a website called 'myanimelist'. Preconceived notions about what 'anime' is should be overridden by cold hard facts in this case. Besides, if we can have music videos, 'specials' that are actually worthless supplements to DVDs and the like, and if we can have the obscene monstrosity that is Appleseed: Ex Machina here, then we can have stop-motion anime too. Because as we are now all aware, consistency has been flushed down the toilet at MAL, there's no harm in adding another category of anime. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
Beatnik said: cyruz said: In the eyes of many users we never do anything right anyway. E. g. you all scream 'consistency, consistency!' all the time but when we do something along those lines But you dont. You dont do anything. A problem occurs, it's pointed out, we get a 'the mods discussed it' reply and the problem is swept under the rug. Dirty rug. I'm not gonna be staying in this thread, so my opinion before I leave: if it's made by Japanese for Japanese, then it's anime and belongs on a website called 'myanimelist'. Preconceived notions about what 'anime' is should be overridden by cold hard facts in this case. Besides, if we can have music videos, 'specials' that are actually worthless supplements to DVDs and the like, and if we can have the obscene monstrosity that is Appleseed: Ex Machina here, then we can have stop-motion anime too. Because as we are now all aware, consistency has been flushed down the toilet at MAL, there's no harm in adding another category of anime. Couldn't have said it better myself |
| I won't be fooled by a mere 3-d girl!!! |
TsukikageRan said: I thought that anime (for those of us outside Japan) meant any animation produced by the Japanese for the Japanese audience. Apparently, here in MAL(MyAnimeList) it would be excluding certain animations because of quite arbitrary (but admittedly long thought out) opinions. That is - Animation from Japan is not anime in MAL's database if it is not cel or CGI animated (Kineta's post). Quite contrary to any intelligent person seeing the true meaning of anime. Some food for thought: 1. Kawamoto succeeded Osamu Tezuka as President of the Japan Animation Association. Kawamoto's name is pretty well established within anime circles in back home due to his position as President of the Japan Animation Association, a role he inherited from Astroboy creator and the grandfather of the modern manga Osamu Tezuka when he died in 1989. The JAA regularly put together programs to promote the newest and best of Japanese animation as well as old classics. 2. Other anime websites (AniDB and ANN) lists Kawamoto's works and consider them as anime. Of course, they would because it is anime! Perhaps you feel that you, mods, after thinking it over, should be different from them. These two sites are respected anime sites and are actually MAL's resources when adding to the database. 3. A few stop action anime does not seem to be jeopardizing the servers. Why not let it be? 4. We do want consistency in our database...and THIS is your answer? I'm not belittling your work. Far from it. I don't want to seem ungrateful for all the work and, for most of the time, the prompt response you give when I ask questions. It's just that, the definition that you gave 'anime' is quite arbitrary and flies in the face of common sense. Thank you for your time... Probably the best post in this topic, even though I'm on the side that says excluding stop motion is a reasonable position. I'm curious how the moderators will respond to it, because there are a number of good points there. |
YoungVagabond said: Probably the best post in this topic, even though I'm on the side that says excluding stop motion is a reasonable position. I'm curious how the moderators will respond to it, because there are a number of good points there. Well so am I and others |
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| animation don't say the "tion" part, any wou get how so many retards pronounce "anime" so ya..... i don't consider stop motion animation as anime, but this is just 1 person. |
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| You know, Kawamoto's animations are really old...They're from the 1970s for the most part. It's like comparing the 1930s Japan cartoons to anime today. I'm sure if he made them today, they would've been computer edited, because it's a lot easier that way. If Akiba-chan is considered animation, because it's computer edited, then how come there isn't more stop-motion animation considered anime on this site? As for the argument, it's just not popular enough. I guess no one knows Domo-kun then? Guess not. There's animation like that that's longer, that's also not on this site even though it's computer edited SMA. Domo-kun short stop-animation anime. Maora said: animation don't say the "tion" part, any wou get how so many retards pronounce "anime" It's abbreviated form the way it's pronounced, not spelled. It's annoying how people say Anima though. |
Manga_samaOct 22, 2009 7:51 PM
| So....Kotatsu Neko being viewed by 144 people isn't enough fans for the Mods to care....so does that mean that we should delete every show that has 144 or less views. That seems fair to me. Besides wasn't it the mods who let the stop motion anime on the site in the first place? |
| I won't be fooled by a mere 3-d girl!!! |
| I think they should be kept because they can be considered animation. Just a thought. |
| Animation is the stringing together still frames of created art to make the illusion of motion mimicking live-action film, in the purest sense. Whether your art medium is 2D drawing, CGI, or even clay, it's still animation because you are "animating" inanimate objects. Anime is just another name for Japanese animation. Honestly, if the mods here think that only traditional anime fit that mold, get rid of CGI. Heck, get rid of experimental anime too, like Inaka Isha or Le Maison de Petites Cubes! And by extension, get rid of a good chunk of your userbase, including me, because the whole reason I use MAL to manage my anime list is because it allows ordinary people to make new pages for anime that they consider to be good anime. If some people find it to be anime, and it was made in Japan, and there is some sort of animation involved in the process, it should be on this site. Also, why do you (mods) even care? I can think of two reasons. 1. you're biased against stop-motion because you just don't like it (i.e. shouldn't be making this decision), or 2. you're elitist (i.e. shouldn't be making ANY decisions). |
Asteriks said: Asteriks said: It seems so. I honestly can't comprehend why all moderators here share the same thoughts.So, MAL moderators really don't have opinions of their own? You think a moderator that disagrees with the others would find it appropriate to express it here? I can see why you'd have problems comprehending a lot of things. |
Goes without saying. Doesn't mean there would be much point to disagreeing here, though. Anyone making an issue of all of the mods agreeing with each other is only trying to get one to disagree. Asteriks said: This seems as more appropriate answer. More appropriate than your previous attempt at quoting. Though you might want to reassess what you think "demagogy" means. |
| It seems my last warning wasn't heeded. I did politely request everybody stay on topic and stop being idiots. Some of you are being quite rude here, so this is my last polite request to be cool to each other; feel free to discuss the topic in a civil matter, but insults and flaming after two polite warnings will upset me. Nobody wants to see me upset. It's great some of you are passionate about the matter, but you do have to respect the db mods, how they decide to regulate submissions to the db and manage db classifications; they're willing to listen to intelligent argument, but some of you aren't arguing intelligently, it's degrading in to minor flaming (well, singeing perhaps). Be happy they're even willing to listen to your opinions on the matter, as opposed to just ignoring you. I personally don't care one way or the other, I'm a completely impartial party in this debate and I will also warn mods who step over the line (moreso, in fact, because they should know better). So please, be nice to each other. That means everybody. ^^ |
| It doesn't seem to me that there is a discussion going on here at all. This seems to a very one sided argument, with little give. I believe that anime deriving from it's previous title of Japanimation should include all animation from Japan. I think by discrediting this man's works (Kawamoto) we are all but spitting in the face of japanese animation, anime itself. I am very fond of this site because of it's large range of information, but what good is an encyclopedia that is missing a few chapters? It's suddenly not so accurate. |
| Well one thing I've learned from this experience, is that a princess is still a princesss even when she is naked. |
| Well, that was certainly a lot of posts to go through. Certainly a lot of repetitive posts to go through as well. As such, I'd like to summarize most of the previous posts and start off by laying a few ground rules about how this thread will continue in hopes that only discussions about the relevant topic will continue from here. 1. Saying that anime is any animation produced in Japan is but one way to define anime. This argument has already been addressed in innumberable posts. Please do not repeat it. I have quoted my previous answer below. 2. Bringing up other questionable entries in the DB is not the way to win an argument about stop-motion. If you are concerned about the validity of other entries, please address those concerns in a different thread. 3. Defining stop-motion as animation is irrelevant. We have acknowledged that it is animation from the beginning. 4. Please refrain from making posts such as "quote for truth" or "best post". It clutters the thread and makes it more difficult to see and address all true posts. 5. Let's keep the negative comments about the moderators out of the discussion, shall we? Trying to insult us and make us feel miserable does not help win your case either. In return, I will do my best to consider and address all of your points. Statements that begin with "The mods always..." are just asking for trouble. Posts about the first three points or including the fourth or fifth point will be ignored from here on out. We are doing our best to give you our attention and consideration by replying in this thread, so please give us some respect. Edit: seems Asako beat me to the punch, per se, on this :) __________________________________________________________________________________________ Now, onto the main topic. You are all very passionate in this thread, and I am always quite pleased to see people express their passion for something. However, that passion you are demonstrating in this thread falls quite short outside of it. We have 10 stop motion entries in our database, and eight of them are from Kawamoto Kihachiro. Are you telling me that 80% of all stop-motion produced in Japan are from Kawamoto? That these 8 entries are a comprehensive listing of all the works Kawamoto has completed? That 10 entries are a comprehensive listing of all of the stop-motion works produced in Japan? How about 50% of the stop-motion works produced in Japan? 20% of them? 10%? CorallineAlgae stated in his post that clayanimation has been around in eastern asia since 1916. Stop-motion techniques have been around for that long, and there are only 10 entries to show for it? And judging by the numbers on the anime tags, we didn't even have 10 entries 2 months ago. We had three. And all entries added since then are Kawamoto's works. This is an excellent demonstration of why low popularity is a problem. Less popularity means less people knowing and/or caring about it, which then leads to very few people submitting and maintaining that part of the database. Then, rather than demonstrating the Japanese stop-motion culture you are all fighting for, it merely clutters the database and makes it look like a handful of stop-motion entries were tossed into it by mistake. If it were merely as simple to say "oh, it's one entry, why not keep it?" then we would have added Avatar ages ago. I'd like to note that this does not mean that every entry with minimal users should be tossed out. But when by stylistic definition stop-motion animation is not anime, and we look at the quite sad statistics these very few entries have, there seems to be no point in both keeping them, and trying to add to or maintain them. As for creating a new taq with "Experimental" labelled on it: why should we create a tag for 10 entries? And how are stop-motion animations 'experimental'? I'm sorry, but I don't see how adding this tag benefits the database at all. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is looking to me like this is a discussion over whether Kawamoto's works are anime, not if stop-motion animation made in Japan are anime. |
KinetaOct 23, 2009 8:30 AM
| Kineta said This is an excellent demonstration of why low popularity is a problem. Less popularity means less people knowing and/or caring about it, which then leads to very few people submitting and maintaining that part of the database. Then, rather than demonstrating the Japanese stop-motion culture you are all fighting for, it merely clutters the database and makes it look like a handful of stop-motion entries were tossed into it by mistake. I'd like to note that this does not mean that every entry with minimal users should be tossed out. But when by stylistic definition stop-motion animation is not anime, and we look at the quite sad statistics these very few entries have, there seems to be no point in both keeping them, and trying to add to or maintain them. *sigh* You should have said that in the first place or at least earlier. This I could understand - lack of manpower to maintain the database. You make a definition and weed out the titles so it becomes manageable to you, who are maintaining the list. This makes more sense than your definition of 'anime.' I'd like to thank you, just the same. Because it is here in MAL that I became acquainted with the best of stop motion anime. Without this site, those animes would have just gone under the radar for me and I would have missed the richness that those films have to offer. It seems useless by now to say this, but the enthusiasm of the users who have seen the said films contributed to the adding of the list - generating fans which would have otherwise been ignorant of these anime gems. We are few now, that much is true and by eliminating these anime; you have ensured that we will, in effect, remain few; incapable of getting more enthusiasts so we could up our numbers and thereby getting that 'popularity' blessing so needed to remain in the database. Kineta said Correct me if I am wrong, but this is looking to me like this is a discussion over whether Kawamoto's works are anime, not if stop-motion animation made in Japan are anime. You are wrong. The greatest works will always filter through the ages. The best will be remembered and given due respect. The reason why Kawamoto's animes are mentioned is simply because he was a master of his craft. These titles are here (for now) because it was and still is great examples of stop motion anime. The chaff rarely withstands the test of time. None of us ever doubted that any of the works that you will exclude are not anime. You are the only ones who say so. We do not need to go by your definition but by your decision, MAL's database will have that definition to better maintain the database. Off-topic : I love you, Asako...Now, I'm going to my room and suck ice cubes in peace for a few hours. You rock, girl. |
TsukikageRanOct 23, 2009 9:12 AM
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