Phantomnocomics said: Pullman said: First of all who are 'they'? You were talking about users being against the inclusion of western titles and they were not even around when the decision to include korean and chinese works was made 12 or so years ago. What people like you don't seem to understand is that the question of 'will we add something new to the DB/guidelines' and 'will we keep something that is already in there' are two very different things. In one case the decision to include it would create a ton of work, in the other case the decision to include it would just maintain the status quo without creating additional work. It's not the same kind of decision unless you can travel back in time to the point at which they first decided to include korean and chinese anime. It is not a neutral decision between two equal options, because one of them is already in the DB, represented by 100s of titles that cost hundreds of hours of work. There needs to be no reason to include it except for the fact that it's already there so leaving it in doesn't hurt anybody. Unlike western series which would require a complete do-over of the DB and therefore require quite convincing reasons if you want to argue in favor of that. In one case the question is 'does it make sense to remove hundreds of titles and undo hundreds of hours to work just to make the DB limited to japanese media?' and in the other cast the question is 'does it make sense to decrease the consistency of the DB, create 10,000s of hours of additional work just to include western animation as well which is already extensively available in tons of other DB sites'. You can argue about whether the work it would take to include them and make the DB larger and more comprehensive would be worth the upside of making the DB larger and more comprehensive (I don't think so since there already are alternatives but that is another topic). But in what world does it make sense to create additional work just to undo past work and to make the existing DB smaller and less comprehensive? It just makes no sense to want to remove the korean and chinese entries at this point. You're right that including korean and chinese animation is contradictory in some ways but that's because it wasn't a conscious choice based on abstract rationalizations. It happened early on in the days before there were guidelines, when the site was very new and small. By the time they formalized the guidelines there had already been plenty of korean and chinese animations in the DB added by users who didn't differentiate between them, and the first generation of mods figured it would be more work and less functionality if they just removed them so they created the guidelines based on what the DB already factually looked like at that point instead of basing them around some idealization that didn't represent the reality of how the DB looked like. If the guidelines were created from scratch and the DB didn't already exist at that point, I'm sure they would not have included them and specified Japan instead, but it is what it is. You can't change history and the argument that it would just create more work for the sole purpose of undoing past work while also reducing the existing functionality of the site for anyone who already has korean or chinese anime on their list, is still valid. So it's not gonna happen and that part of MAL history will stay part of the guidelines because it's the least problematic way to handle the situation at this point. When it comes to western series none of these arguments apply, they aren't already in the DB because of historical reasons, so not allowing them in now doesn't undo years of work by creating even more work. It's just keeping consistent with the status quo. Not everything makes sense from a purely logical perspective, but often you need the historical perspective to understand certain things. That's the case for MAL as much as it is irl. my "people"?. boi is this gonna be fun. of all who are 'they'? none other than Garret Gyssler and his menions. You were talking about users being against the inclusion of western titles and they were not even around when the decision to include korean and chinese works was made 12 or so years ago. it started with japanese only and should have stayed so and that's the point. and contrary to popular beliefs it seems, there were actual co produced western titles with japan even back then What people like you don't seem to understand is that the question of 'will we add something new to the DB/guidelines' and 'will we keep something that is already in there' are two very different things lol, you screwed up so much at this one but for the sake of giggles. well, people like you don't seem to understand that the answer to those question of whether we should keep this or add this are the same. In one case the decision to include it would create a ton of work, in the other case the decision to include it would just maintain the status quo without creating additional work. It's not the same kind of decision unless you can travel back in time to the point at which they first decided to include korean and chinese anime dont need a time machine for that, either hire more staff and acknowledge that staff shortage is the real reason why this site DB is broken and aim to fix it, or come up with a lame excuse like too much work so no can do. im sure garret has more than enough in his packets to hire more staff. or if no can do since ( too much work/money) then just offer a temporal mod stat to users as a voluntray work You can argue about whether the work it would take to include them and make the DB larger and more comprehensive would be worth the upside of making the DB larger and more comprehensive so many tried yet so many failed, mal made itself clear that it aint letting users interfere with their business model (I don't think so since there already are alternatives but that is another topic). a one would be making regional options but meh (too much work/money) for the ones included for the time being but nope. But in what world does it make sense to create additional work just to undo past work really?, do i really have to point out how brokenly flawed this idea is?, sigh. and to make the existing DB smaller and less comprehensive? It just makes no sense to want to remove the korean and chinese entries at this point so what of it?, so what if the DB gets smaller?. thinking otherwise is appealing to a certain kind of people (who think is asian cartoon by this point) and for profit. less comprehensive?, give me a break. you are confusing what it is now with what it should be. and you already stated otherwise previously your last line is what makes no sense. the idea of it being nonsensical is a nonsense by itself. either keep them but region lock them or remove them. simple as that You're right that including korean and chinese animation is contradictory in some ways but that's because it wasn't a conscious choice based on abstract rationalizations. It happened early on in the days before there were guidelines, when the site was very new and small. By the time they formalized the guidelines there had already been plenty of korean and chinese animations in the DB added by users who didn't differentiate between them, and the first generation of mods figured it would be more work and less functionality if they just removed them so they created the guidelines based on what the DB already factually looked like at that point instead of basing them around some idealization that didn't represent the reality of how the DB looked like. If the guidelines were created from scratch and the DB didn't already exist at that point, I'm sure they would not have included them and specified Japan instead, but it is what it is. nothing new stated here, ever head of what an appeal to tradition is?, and the just because it was doesn't mean it should be? the meh too work is yet again, not an excuse. You can't change history ever heard of history is written by the winners? or in a more serious approach: (correcting history means changing it?). last time and the argument that it would just create more work for the sole purpose of undoing past work You do more future work to undo past work. simple as that while also reducing the existing functionality of the site for anyone who already has korean or chinese anime on their list Yes, they should be somewhere else. (in4 its for those users argument) , is still valid. So it's not gonna happen and that part of MAL history called it. and history change pal. be it mal or not will stay part of the guidelines because it's the least problematic way to handle the situation at this point. so less work more profit, amrite? When it comes to western series none of these arguments apply, they do but in your words (people like you avoid them like the plague) they aren't already in the DB because of historical reasons, you said this for the fourth time already, seriously dude. say something new? so not allowing them in now doesn't undo years of work by creating even more work. It's just keeping consistent with the status quo. so too much/less money < less work/more money amrite? It is not a neutral decision between two equal options, because one of them is already in the DB, represented by 100s of titles that cost hundreds of hours of work. There needs to be no reason to include it except for the fact that it's already there so leaving it in doesn't hurt anybody. Unlike western series which would require a complete do-over of the DB and therefore require quite convincing reasons if you want to argue in favor of that. cant convince a stupido who counters with: X needs to be Japanesely dubbed or based on a japanese because Y has the latter when when backed to a corner. save your excuses dude. Not everything makes sense from a purely logical perspective, but often you need the historical perspective to understand certain things. That's the case for MAL as much as it is irl. this doesnt make sense even from a common sense perspective. let alone a logical one. you already know what i typed about the was =/= should be. you made me realize the quote-unquote "how can you say so much yet mean so little" is a true thing wow you're dumber than I though. Enjoy your ignorance then, if you still don't get the basic points after all that there is really no helping you. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| o mommy!, this guy doesnt agree with me and proved me wrong!. so imma call them dumb and ignorant for doing so. dont need fake help, thank u not |
Knightmare_YK said: If they are rejecting Neo-Yokio then they should also reject animations made exclusively in China. Exactly since Neo Yokio was also co-produced by a JAPANESE studio Tropisch said: Are people forgetting the so called "Chinese anime" worked with Japanese teams to make them? It's the reason those are on here, same with other anime that was made from other Asian countries. And before someone mentions Radiant, yes, it's source material is a French comic, but Lerche, a Japanese studio adapted it into an anime, thus, it's on MAL. But Neo Yokio was co-produced by Production I.G, yet it's not on the site. HopefulNihilist said: I think MAL should add all animated series, regardless of country of origin. Anybody who has studied even a little Japanese knows that "anime" literally means "animation", not tied to a country of origin. Exactly so I don't understand why MAL only allows some and not all DarkSyndicate said: Relax with the elitist stance dude. It's not that serious. Anime is anime, wherever it comes from doesn't matter. If it has the same style as an anime, it's an anime. That's how Japanese people see it, I don't see why anyone else should see it different. But the thing is, there are shows co-produced by Japanese studios (Neo Yokio) that are not on the site Nemo_Niemand said: Imo "anime" is the name of oriental cartoons - Japanese, Chinese, Korean and some else. It's ok to consider Chinese and Korean cartoons "anime". On the other hand, western wannabe imitations like Avatar or RWBY should never be accepted as anime No Anime is the shortened form of "Animation" the term was created by the Japanese. Both the Koreans and Chinese have their own terms to refer to their animation. Since Anime just means animation I don't understand why MAL is cherry picking. |
-SP-Apr 13, 2019 12:28 AM
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-SP- said: No Anime is the shortened form of "Animation" the term was created by the Japanese. Both the Koreans and Chinese have their own terms to refer to their animation. Since Anime just means animation I don't understand why MAL is cherry picking. You are wrong. Anime can be a shortened form of "Animation" ONLY in Japanese language. Only Japanese people use this definition. The western word "anime" is a different term. A Japanese person can call a US cartoon anime. But we, westerners, can't |
Nemo_NiemandApr 13, 2019 5:25 AM
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Nemo_Niemand said: -SP- said: No Anime is the shortened form of "Animation" the term was created by the Japanese. Both the Koreans and Chinese have their own terms to refer to their animation. Since Anime just means animation I don't understand why MAL is cherry picking. You are wrong. Anime can be a shortened form of "Animation" ONLY in Japanese language. Only Japanese people use this definition. The western word "anime" is a different term. A Japanese person can call a US cartoon anime. But we, westerners, can't That logic doesn't really make sense. What about westerners who can speak Japanese? |
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| I dont see why it has any more right to be here than avatar. So yes. But it's not a very big deal, I just hope they dont add more. |
| Im not a fan of deleting stuff from databases or wikis which MAL kinda is. In my unqualified opinion they should get their own category though. A disney animation isnt an anime for me as well. The original meaning of the japanese word for anime doesnt concern me or my use and understand of the word anime. We could also make up a new word to distinguish japanese anime productions from cartoons, but its kinda to late for that now, and luckily the other thing happened - we call non anime cartoons. And Im fine with that. |
| "This emotion is mine alone. It is for Madoka alone." - Homura or how I would descripe Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. |
| I believe that the community should be more open to adding unconventional "anime". Chinese anime should definitely be allowed, as should some western shows like ATLA. A lot of people disagree with this, and that's alright. I just think inclusion is almost always a good thing. |
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| I'm glad I didn't read half of the replies on here before posting. You guys are so determined to protect the japanese culture on here, and yet I bet most of you posting aren't japanese. How about we let them decide what is disrespectful to their own culture instead of fighting amongst ourselves on the internet over who is "right". No one here has a right to determine what is "right" in Japan... so stop? |
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Talgikiwi said: I believe that the community should be more open to adding unconventional "anime". Chinese anime should definitely be allowed, as should some western shows like ATLA. A lot of people disagree with this, and that's alright. I just think inclusion is almost always a good thing. I don't. The more you include in the definition of a word the less that word means. It really is a slippery slope if you have that attitude. Anime goes from being Japanese, to being Asian, to be being wordwide. The art goes from 2D, to 2D with some CG, until you start getting disney moves included as 'anime'. For most of us, anime is Japanese and we are fans of anime in large part because of that. I have no problem with Chinese anime instinctively but thinking about how it could eventually spread to be a western thing really worries me. With all the money and cultural influence the west imposes on the world, I can't help but think westernization will water down anime to just mainstream bullshit. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
| Why not leave anime to mean what it already means? If you want to form a community for Chinese or western stuff, then form a community for that. The anime community formed around the idea that anime is Japanese. That's why the rules on MAL and on r/anime and even the dictionary definition of the word 'anime' descirbe it as Japanese. Surely it's better to have more communities such that each individual community caters to a specific taste, rather than one large community where half the people in there don't relate to the other half? What is important in a commnity? What gives it that sense of community? It comes from a shared belief, shared interests, the things which bring people together through similarities. By expanding anime to mean more different things, you inevitably alienate more and more people. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
YossaRedMage said: Talgikiwi said: I believe that the community should be more open to adding unconventional "anime". Chinese anime should definitely be allowed, as should some western shows like ATLA. A lot of people disagree with this, and that's alright. I just think inclusion is almost always a good thing. I don't. The more you include in the definition of a word the less that word means. It really is a slippery slope if you have that attitude. Anime goes from being Japanese, to being Asian, to be being wordwide. The art goes from 2D, to 2D with some CG, until you start getting disney moves included as 'anime'. For most of us, anime is Japanese and we are fans of anime in large part because of that. I have no problem with Chinese anime instinctively but thinking about how it could eventually spread to be a western thing really worries me. With all the money and cultural influence the west imposes on the world, I can't help but think westernization will water down anime to just mainstream bullshit. I can see your point to a degree. I'm not saying to open the flood gates and let anything that has been drawn be called anime. That would be ridiculous. Instead, I mean to possibly include media that has a sort of essence of anime. I can't speak for Chinese anime because I haven't seen any, but to go back to my example with ATLA, it has very heavy japanese and chinese influences. A lot of people that worked on that show were japanese, chinese and korean. So if they were to claim that ATLA was anime, would you have the right to tell them they were wrong? That's where I start to have issues is when people think they have the right to say "no, that isn't anime." Who gave them the right? They worked on the project absolutely none and they have no claim to the culture that they are complaining about. That's what doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what should be considered anime and what shouldn't because I'm not Japanese. |
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| If something is created in the traditional style of anime, then I believe it should be listed here, even if it was created by western-based companies. It's like if a doll was made in Scotland, and then a doll of the same style is made in China. They're both dolls that are alike, the only difference is that one was made in a certain place, and the other was made somewhere else. It doesn't matter about the ethnicity of whoever made anime, it's the style that truly matters. Chinese anime belongs if it has clear roots in traditional anime. |
“What are you scared of? Nothing good has ever come from fear.” – Kawabuchi Sentarou |
| I think if Chinnese animation count as anime Avatar etc. Should count as anime to... |
| Props for not having this thread removed with all of the toxic comments.~ My answer: No.~ |
 サディスティックな考え "JUST KILL ME." サディスティックマインド |
L_o_l_i said: Props for not having this thread removed with all of the toxic comments.~ My answer: No.~ I am surprised myself that people are still responding. |
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Platypus7 said: MAL's policy on what they add to the database is a bit complicated. They add Korean anime as well as the Chinese stuff and possibly some others that I don't remember. Personally I'm pretty happy with adding these non-Japanese shows as they are clearly 'anime' just with different origins. Anime being used to only describe Japanese animation is just outdated at this point, there's so many shows made in other countries that follow the same style and spirit. The only reason MAL hasn't started adding 'western anime' like Avatar, RWBY, Castlevania, Neo Yokio etc. is because it's difficult to separate anime and cartoons with a clear definition so there'd be endless debates about what shows should be included. So panty&stocking should not be here because it has an cartoon art style |
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| Like when they ban anime for the most random reason ever, yes we should. @ManyMaria111 Oi, why you revived this thread lmao. |
| If it looks like anime I don't see the problem |
| I think chinese, korean and Indian anime should be added on MAL. Also anime like "Devilman Cry baby and Baki" produced by both americans (Netflix) and japanese are also fine. I don't think series from solely the west (Europe and America) are needed in MAL (Castlevania). Unless the works are collaborations between the east and west. |
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| Im getting into those Donghuas and im enjoying it, i don't mind the voice acting at all so it's just like watching an anime to me, don't see why it wouldn't go into the database and is even listed as a Donghua not an Anime here in the web site. |
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| Like when they ban anime for the most random reason ever, yes we should. @ManyMaria111 Oi, why you revived this thread lmao.[/quote] lol i just found it and i thought i would answer. We are in quarantine soo why not xD |
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| Nope, don't you dare touch my Mo Dao Zu Shi |
-EnvyV2- said: i have never seen a chinese anime in my life, ima go search the one the person above me said xD I tried to watch the one, the person above you commented, but the voice acting was too bad. |
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