| So u were here, well, I read a little of your other points against the show, here I come: SSL443 said: It's all about the pacing. The in-world time-frame may or may not be realistic, but forcing it into such a small amount of screen time feels rushed. We have to get from Raphtalia being a traumatized kid who is viewed as nothing more than a tool by her owner to a Strong Female Protagonist capable of fighting wave enemies and acting independently. It's a lot of ground to cover emotionally and psychologically. Actually, it's not. It's all about Naofumi's point of view, he still views her as a child until the very end of ep 4, her change feels sudden to him, and since he's the protagonist and the story is narrated by his point of view, Raphtalia's change isn't supposed to be experienced gradually by the viewer as well. The pacing of Raphtalia's growth fits the situation quite well imo. |
vhagar8 said: Actually, it's not. Actually, it is. Look, I can make an undefended assertion as well. vhagar8 said: It's all about Naofumi's point of view, he still views her as a child until the very end of ep 4, her change feels sudden to him, and since he's the protagonist and the story is narrated by his point of view, Raphtalia's change isn't supposed to be experienced gradually by the viewer as well. The pacing of Raphtalia's growth fits the situation quite well imo. You realize this is the exact counterpoint that I disputed above? You've added exactly nothing to the discussion except waste my time. |
SSL443 said: vhagar8 said: Actually, it's not. Actually, it is. Look, I can make an undefended assertion as well. vhagar8 said: It's all about Naofumi's point of view, he still views her as a child until the very end of ep 4, her change feels sudden to him, and since he's the protagonist and the story is narrated by his point of view, Raphtalia's change isn't supposed to be experienced gradually by the viewer as well. The pacing of Raphtalia's growth fits the situation quite well imo. You realize this is the exact counterpoint that I disputed above? You've added exactly nothing to the discussion except waste my time. My bad, u took the trouble to bold it and spam it thrice so I guessed u'd hold that argument in high consideration, but if that comment was supposed to be a valid response against a point like the one I just made I guess I really wasted the time of both of us |
vhagar8 said: My bad, u took the trouble to bold it and spam it thrice so I guessed u'd hold that argument in high consideration, but if that comment was supposed to be a valid response against a point like the one I just made I guess I really wasted the time of both of us If you want to explain how such a large range of changes in a character can be adequately conveyed in such a short time, both in terms of the in-world time and on-screen time, I'm all years. However, I'm not interested in reading the same point about how it is supposedly because we are restricted to Naofumi's point of view again. We're not and I already responded to and debunked that idea. |
SSL443 said: If you want to explain how such a large range of changes in a character can be adequately conveyed in such a short time, both in terms of the in-world time and on-screen time, I'm all years. However, I'm not interested in reading the same point about how it is supposedly because we are restricted to Naofumi's point of view again. We're not and I already responded to and debunked that idea. That's not debunking. You're just disagreeing with the author deciding to make Raph's development fast due to the level/growth mechanic of demi-humans. |
VeryLTTP said: That's not debunking. You're just disagreeing with the author deciding to make Raph's development fast due to the level/growth mechanic of demi-humans. I'm not interested in reading the same point about how it is supposedly because we are restricted to Naofumi's point of view again. We're not and I already responded to and debunked that idea. |
SSL443 said: I'm not interested in reading the same point about how it is supposedly because we are restricted to Naofumi's point of view again. We're not and I already responded to and debunked that idea. Cool low-effort post. I would not be surprised if you merely copy/pasted your previous comment, and added a few words here and there to make it look "different". |
VeryLTTP said: Cool low-effort post. I would not be surprised if you merely copy/pasted your previous comment, and added a few words here and there to make it look "different". I actually copy-pasted and removed words. Reason being is that once again you somehow misread my post, so I figured I would help you re-read it. I can also make the font larger if you are having trouble with your eyesight. |
SSL443 said: I actually copy-pasted and removed words. Reason being is that once again you somehow misread my post, so I figured I would help you re-read it. I can also make the font larger if you are having trouble with your eyesight. Then that's just as bad. You just don't want to put in effort so you just make the discussion personal instead of argumentative. But sure, play that ad nauseaum card again. |
| Time to report this thread since it's become worthless. |
VeryLTTP said: Then that's just as bad. You just don't want to put in effort so you just make the discussion personal instead of argumentative. But sure, play that ad nauseaum card again. And you keep playing the non sequiturs card because I say one thing and you respond as if I said something completely different. You literally don't read what I'm saying, then accuse me of repeating myself when that's literally all I can do in the face of apparent illiteracy. |
SSL443 said: And you keep playing the non sequitur argument again because I say one thing and you respond as if I said something completely different. You literally don't read what I'm saying, then accuse me of repeating myself when that's literally all I can do in the face of apparent illiteracy. Actually, you made a non sequitor because you never addressed the part where I mentioned the demi-human growth/level-up mechanic and how it was the author's choice to make Raph's development fast. And at least I don't make things personal. But sure, go ahead and type your comments in a bigger font. I'm sure that will help your credibility. |
VeryLTTP said: SSL443 said: If you want to explain how such a large range of changes in a character can be adequately conveyed in such a short time, both in terms of the in-world time and on-screen time, I'm all years. However, I'm not interested in reading the same point about how it is supposedly because we are restricted to Naofumi's point of view again. We're not and I already responded to and debunked that idea. That's not debunking. You're just disagreeing with the author deciding to make Raph's development fast due to the level/growth mechanic of demi-humans. I specifically responeded to the argument that her development was fast because the story is supposedly from Naofumi's point of view. That's what I was referring to as debunked. But somehow you then equated that with my disagreement with the pacing of the story. How? Nobody knows. |
SSL443 said: I specifically responeded to the argument that her development was fast because the story is supposedly from Naofumi's point of view. That's what I was referring to as debunked. But somehow you then equated that with my disagreement with the pacing of the story. How? Nobody knows. Well, the show did depict Raph's development from his point of view (albeit briefly, but it explains why he thought a lot of people were lolicons) as well as from a 3rd person perspective. Not sure how you exactly debunked anything. Because you haven't exactly debunked anything, you are just expressing disagreement with the pacing in which that pacing was determined by an in-universe mechanic. Not sure how metaphorically shouting at the top of your lungs helps bolster your ad nauseaum fallacy... |
Killuan said: Time to report this thread since it's become worthless. Has it ever been worth something tho. Anyway @SSL443 whenever limiting the watcher to the protagonist point of view or not is completely up to the author, u can dislike it, no one is forcing u to do otherwise, but that doesn't make it good material for an actual critic to the show. |
VeryLTTP said: Well, the show did depict Raph's development from his point of view (albeit briefly, but it explains why he thought a lot of people were lolicons) as well as from a 3rd person perspective. Not sure how you exactly debunked anything. Because you haven't exactly debunked anything, you are just expressing disagreement with the pacing in which that pacing was determined by an in-universe mechanic. Not sure how metaphorically shouting at the top of your lungs helps bolster your ad nauseaum fallacy... The story is told from Naofumi's perspective, specifically third-person limited. However, it is not limited by his PERCEPTION as we see Raphtalia as an adult in episode 4. Conclusion: the fast pacing is NOT because his PERCEPTION of the time was fast. I am ALSO asserting that the pacing is rushed. This is a SEPERATE claim to the perspective, and limitations of the perspective, of the narrative. I don't understand why this distionction is hard to grasp. Thinking is hard, I guess. |
vhagar8 said: Anyway @SSL443 whenever limiting the watcher to the protagonist point of view or not is completely up to the author, u can dislike it, no one is forcing u to do otherwise, but that doesn't make it good material for an actual critic to the show. I never said it wasn't up to the author, that it shouldn't be up to the author, that it shouldn't be done, or that I didn't like it. |
SSL443 said: The story is told from Naofumi's perspective, specifically third-person limited. However, it is not limited by his PERCEPTION as we see Raphtalia as an adult in episode 4. Conclusion: the fast pacing is NOT because his PERCEPTION of the time was fast. I am ALSO asserting that the pacing is rushed. This is a SEPERATE claim to the perspective, and limitations of the perspective, of the narrative. I don't understand why this distionction is hard to grasp. Thinking is hard, I guess. No, the proper conclusion is that the fast pacing is due to the combination of Naofumi's perception due to his trauma as well as the audience's perception due to an in-universe mechanic. It's fast paced because it was meant to be that way. Your assertion is your opinion, though. There's nothing objective. If you think demi-humans growing fast when they level up quickly is a BS reason, then sure. But that's your opinion at the end of the day. Not sure why you're obsessed with needing to make personal jabs at every turn. Chill out, man. It's just a show. |
VeryLTTP said: No, the proper conclusion is that the fast pacing is due to the combination of Naofumi's perception due to his trauma as well as the audience's perception due to an in-universe mechanic. It's fast paced because it was meant to be that way. I'm not disputing that it was meant to be that way. I'm disputing whether or not that such fast pacing does justice to the characterization and story. VeryLTTP said: Your assertion is your opinion, though. There's nothing objective. If you think demi-humans growing fast when they level up quickly is a BS reason, then sure. But that's your opinion at the end of the day. I don't care about fantasy mechanics. I care about characterization and relationships. That is what is rushed here. I don't really care about nitpicking the fiction, even if it might be ass-pull. VeryLTTP said: Not sure why you're obsessed with needing to make personal jabs at every turn. Chill out, man. It's just a show. Probalby because I'm frustrated... you would be too if you felt like every comment you made was going through a 100-person game of telephone. |
SSL443 said: I'm not disputing that it was meant to be that way. I'm disputing whether or not that such fast pacing does justice to the characterization and story. Not sure how showing Naofumi's perspective doesn't do justice to the characterization and story. His trauma warped his perspective to the point that he still saw Raph as a child until after the dual. Raph extending her hand out to him was the start of his psychological healing. I don't care about fantasy mechanics. I care about characterization and relationships. That is what is rushed here. I don't really care about nitpicking the fiction, even if it might be ass-pull. However, the fantasy mechanics did play a role in the characterization and relationship. Raph's personality changed as she leveled up and as a result, also played a role in Naofumi's development. Probalby because I'm frustrated... you would be too if you felt like every comment you made was going through a 100-person game of telephone. I'm not frustrated at all because this is just a discussion. You can't just rely on repetition which has been the source of your frustrations, not the telephone game as you claimed. |
SSL443 said: vhagar8 said: Anyway @SSL443 whenever limiting the watcher to the protagonist point of view or not is completely up to the author, u can dislike it, no one is forcing u to do otherwise, but that doesn't make it good material for an actual critic to the show. I never said it wasn't up to the author, that it shouldn't be up to the author, that it shouldn't be done, or that I didn't like it. Your damn point is that we shouldn't be limited to Naofumi prospective so u sure as hell implied it shouldn't be done. That u didn't like it was just my assumption since u've been bitching about it for hours, if that's not the case it would be pretty hilarious tbh VeryLTTP said: SSL443 said: The story is told from Naofumi's perspective, specifically third-person limited. However, it is not limited by his PERCEPTION as we see Raphtalia as an adult in episode 4. Conclusion: the fast pacing is NOT because his PERCEPTION of the time was fast. I am ALSO asserting that the pacing is rushed. This is a SEPERATE claim to the perspective, and limitations of the perspective, of the narrative. I don't understand why this distionction is hard to grasp. Thinking is hard, I guess. No, the proper conclusion is that the fast pacing is due to the combination of Naofumi's perception due to his trauma as well as the audience's perception due to an in-universe mechanic. It's fast paced because it was meant to be that way. Your assertion is your opinion, though. There's nothing objective. If you think demi-humans growing fast when they level up quickly is a BS reason, then sure. But that's your opinion at the end of the day. Not sure why you're obsessed with needing to make personal jabs at every turn. Chill out, man. It's just a show. Goddammit, thanks god someone get it. The fast pacing isn't a flaw if it is meant to be that way. Whenever someone personally dislike it or not it's irrelevant |
VeryLTTP said: Not sure how showing Naofumi's perspective doesn't do justice to the characterization and story. . I'm not disputing that showing Naofumi's perspective does justification to the characterization and story vis-à-vis Raphtalia and her relationship with Naofumi. I'm suggesting that the PACING doesn't do justice to these elements. VeryLTTP said: His trauma warped his perspective to the point that he still saw Raph as a child until after the dual. Raph extending her hand out to him was the start of his psychological healing. I understood that already, but the audience is not privy to this information until this specific scene in episode 4. VeryLTTP said: However, the fantasy mechanics did play a role in the characterization and relationship. Raph's personality changed as she leveled up and as a result, also played a role in Naofumi's development. Then at that point it is a plot contrivance. How did she overcome her trauma and transform into a completely different personality in a week of off-screen time? Oh, because <insert fantasy mechanic here>. Once again, we come full circle to bad/lazy writing. VeryLTTP said: I'm not frustrated at all because this is just a discussion. You can't just rely on repetition which has been the source of your frustrations, not the telephone game as you claimed. You don't know what the telephone game is, do you. |
vhagar8 said: The fast pacing isn't a flaw if it is meant to be that way. Of course it is, or at least could be. You think every bad movie is just a series of accidents? Writers/directors make all sorts of poor creative decisions. Very deliberate ones at that, but that doesn't make them above reproach. |
Killuan said: Milennin said: Actually, I'd preferred the MC to stay solo. It doesn't even make sense he bought her as a slave, because: 1. she was sick. 2. she was mentally unstable. 3. she looked weak and like she could die any moment. 4. she's a girl. But if the anime gives us a character, I'd prefer that character to stay that character, unless there's been a good reason for them to develop and change. If they change a character from one episode to the next without notice, that's not okay. And how is she not a bitch when she points a blade in the face of the guy who saved her from a cage and treats her well? She comes over as a completely spoiled brat, but that doesn't make sense either, because the MC mentions lolicons in that very same scene to the shopkeeper and makes it seem he disapproves of those type of people. He wouldn't have spoiled her to the point she became like this. To me, it seems the writer has no clue what kind of character he wants the girl to be like. It makes sense because: 1.) He was convicted of rape and no one would party with him 2.) At this point he had severe trust issues 3.) He had 40 silver to his name 4.) Raphtalia was one of the four slaves he could afford. 5.) Naofumi knew he could cure her sickness and would likely be the easiest to use. 6.) After his anger subsided a bit he realized Raphtalia had a worse life than he did, so he started to treat her better. 7.) Who cares if she's a girl? It's fiction there is no rule stating men are stronger than women in fantasy. Often times it's the opposite. 8.) Naofumi could not fight on his own because he's the shield hero and that's why he needed a partner in the first place. There was a good reason. This anime is about revenge and fighting the waves. As well as the wholesome relationship between Raphtalia and Naofumi (and their other companions down the line) -- Raphtalia can not be his equal as a child, nor would it make sense for her to be a badasss in battle if she were a child. This isn't a relationship between a slave and his master, it's a relationship of two people who find solace in each others company who also happen to have a similar goal. Not to mention that's just how demi-humans are in this world setting. That's why they're enslaved and have the same legal standing as monsters. She didn't point a blade to his face...You must have turned the anime off before you actually saw the distance between the two while Raphtalia was holding the blade. Raphtalia is very grateful to Naofumi and if you actually gave it until episode 4 you would see to what degree. The thing about Naofumi referring to the town as a bunch of lolicons is also explained in episode four. Honestly, a lot of your issues with this anime are explained in episode four.  1. Buying a pet/animal companion goes around this issue. 2. Pet/Animal companion makes trust a non-issue. 3. He could grind more silver and buy something better later on. He's in a world based on an RPG. Grinding for resources is a common thing. In fact, it's often better to grind more to buy something of higher quality than to settle for the lowest you can afford the moment you got gold to spend. This is common gamer knowledge. 4. And she was clearly in terrible state. So, either he was getting a bad deal, or he simply had too little money to buy something of quality. In which case, more grinding for gold would've solved this issue. 5. I doubt he knew that for a fact, because he's dealing with a being he's never met before. Also, she was stated to have mental illness. You don't cure that. 6. So he becomes generic MC who takes good care of cute girl companion. While not terrible per se, it's not very interesting to see. 7a. She was a little girl. Sick. Still a child. Lack of combat experience. And at that point, he was unaware of her growth through level-ups, so he would've had to assume she was going to stay a child for the duration of their adventure when he bought her. That's poor decision making, no matter how you look at it. He lucked out that she did, in fact, turn out to physically grow as she levelled up. 7b. He was betrayed by a woman, so his trust issue was with females. That was how they ended episode 1. It would've made more sense to settle for either a guy slave or an animal companion. 8. Yes, so he would be far better off getting a healthy pet after grinding the gold for one. All I can see is how they made up all sorts of BS excuses to have him buy a little girl slave in episode 2, when he had so many better options to go for. Then to waste that entire episode on establishing the little girl only to then in episode 3 come up with more BS excuses to turn little girl into grown woman with an attitude that takes a complete 180. At this point, I guess I'll wait until this series has ended and see if my friend can tell me if it's worth watching to the end when he finished it. Because watching this on an episode by episode basis isn't going to do it for me when the writers can't make up their minds where they want to go with their characters. |
| Thanks OP Why do people keep hyping flavor of the week isekai like this? It's really annoying. |
| Can this garbage thread get locked already please? |
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VeryLTTP said: SSL443 said: I'm not disputing that it was meant to be that way. I'm disputing whether or not that such fast pacing does justice to the characterization and story. Not sure how showing Naofumi's perspective doesn't do justice to the characterization and story. His trauma warped his perspective to the point that he still saw Raph as a child until after the dual. Raph extending her hand out to him was the start of his psychological healing. I don't care about fantasy mechanics. I care about characterization and relationships. That is what is rushed here. I don't really care about nitpicking the fiction, even if it might be ass-pull. However, the fantasy mechanics did play a role in the characterization and relationship. Raph's personality changed as she leveled up and as a result, also played a role in Naofumi's development. Probalby because I'm frustrated... you would be too if you felt like every comment you made was going through a 100-person game of telephone. I'm not frustrated at all because this is just a discussion. You can't just rely on repetition which has been the source of your frustrations, not the telephone game as you claimed. this fanboyness is rare to see,specially for a trash show @dc22 good question, but every time some trash harem isekai like this shows up, they always think its something extra/unique, but its all the same pile of trash |
TsukuyomiREKT said: Can this garbage thread get locked already please? Seriously though, it's going nowhere just like that other thread. |
on SSL443 said: vhagar8 said: The fast pacing isn't a flaw if it is meant to be that way. Of course it is, or at least could be. You think every bad movie is just a series of accidents? Writers/directors make all sorts of poor creative decisions. Very deliberate ones at that, but that doesn't make them above reproach. Ok one last try to explain my point: SSL443 said: I'm disputing whether or not that such fast pacing does justice to the characterization and story. What ur saying here is quite interesting because it underlines the problem we're having pretty well imo: ur too bound to the "classical" way of judging anime, the one u see in many reviews here on mal, anime aren't as simple as that approach might make u think they are. Raphtalia characterization is rushed if u look at that alone (at least as we viewers see it) and I agree with u on that, my point has never been the opposite. The problem here is with the last word "if u look at that ALONE", in this particular situation being rushed rather than gradually characterized is actually a merit rather than a flaw, because it's used to help the viewers see Naofumi's prospective of Raphtalia development, which is distorted by his trauma while still giving though a timeskip enough time to make that happen in a reasonable way, even if it happens off-screen. U can't assume rushed = bad in any situation and u don't even look at the context, the "rules" to how to make a story aren't black or white, there's quite the number of nuances in the middle |
Milennin said: 1. Buying a pet/animal companion goes around this issue. 2. Pet/Animal companion makes trust a non-issue. 3. He could grind more silver and buy something better later on. He's in a world based on an RPG. Grinding for resources is a common thing. In fact, it's often better to grind more to buy something of higher quality than to settle for the lowest you can afford the moment you got gold to spend. This is common gamer knowledge. 4. And she was clearly in terrible state. So, either he was getting a bad deal, or he simply had too little money to buy something of quality. In which case, more grinding for gold would've solved this issue. 5. I doubt he knew that for a fact, because he's dealing with a being he's never met before. Also, she was stated to have mental illness. You don't cure that. 6. So he becomes generic MC who takes good care of cute girl companion. While not terrible per se, it's not very interesting to see. 7a. She was a little girl. Sick. Still a child. Lack of combat experience. And at that point, he was unaware of her growth through level-ups, so he would've had to assume she was going to stay a child for the duration of their adventure when he bought her. That's poor decision making, no matter how you look at it. He lucked out that she did, in fact, turn out to physically grow as she levelled up. 7b. He was betrayed by a woman, so his trust issue was with females. That was how they ended episode 1. It would've made more sense to settle for either a guy slave or an animal companion. 8. Yes, so he would be far better off getting a healthy pet after grinding the gold for one. 1.) What? What pet or animal companion? Would it even be intelligent to follow commands and kill things so he could properly level? What would it cost? It seems like some element you want to add to the story that was never in it in the first place. He does get Filo eventually but that was an extremely lucky gamble he did and it still cost him 100silver. Raphtalia was only 40 silver. 2.) Again, he wasn't presented with that option when he needed a companion. A slave trader confronted him, he had enough silver for a slave. He was short on time. He decided to purchase one of the only slaves he could afford. 3.) How is he going to grind when he can't kill anything? He could only make potions to sell because he gained levels. He was only able to mine for that crystal in the cave because Raphtalia was there to kill the dog monster for him. The anime made it very clear that he could not level on his own unless he spent weeks punching balloon monsters. he didn't have weeks, and eventually punching balloon monsters would not be enough to gain any levels. Purchasing Raphtalia makes far more sense than that. 4.) I already mentioned he had a specific amount of money. Just enough to purchase a low level slave. He had the most confidence in Raphtalia because she was not physically crippled, she was just sick. And he thought he could cure her with medicine, which he did. He can't grind by himself as the shield hero. You want to add an element to the story that doesn't exist in this anime. 5.) It wasn't a fact, but he thought he could. He also didn't expect Raphtalia to be such an asset. He was hoping she would help him to gain some levels for him. She just turned out far more valuable than he originally thought. 6.) I don't see what's wrong with a wholesome relationship as compared to an abusive one that's taking advantage of a little girl. I'm fine with slavery in anime, but there is literally no reason for it unless Naofumi was just a terrible person. But he's not, he actually has heroic qualities. Naofumi used the seal enough to help her overcome her fears, but it makes more sense to have a loyal companion then one who only does things for you out of fear. 7.)He didn't trust women the most. However, he trusted no one. The other heroes, the nobles, the king, the civilians. They all looked down on him because of what he was convicted of. Even though they had no real evidence. This slowly starts to change which is why Naofumi starts to lighten up a bit as the series progresses. 8.) Redundant but 1.a) He didn't even know pets existed at the time. I also don't agree to having a pet as Naofumis only companion. He eventually needed human interaction. A pet could not save him from his trauma. 2.a) He can't grind because he can't kill things. It took several punches for him to kill a lvl 1 monster. Raphtalia could do it with a single jab, and as she gained more levels she could kill several at once. Your plan is definitely the inferior plan. All I can see is how they made up all sorts of BS excuses to have him buy a little girl slave in episode 2, when he had so many better options to go for. Then to waste that entire episode on establishing the little girl only to then in episode 3 come up with more BS excuses to turn little girl into grown woman with an attitude that takes a complete 180. I don't think of a single one of your suggestions as a better option. You want the anime to be something it's not. You call them BS excuses but they make sense in the context of the story. And they're also used in future plot elements so they don't simply get tossed aside. Let me tell you the significance of Raphtalia. Originally, Naofumi despised women. Raphtalia was a little girl he could control. Their relationship could never develop properly if Raphtalia was a grown women at the start of the anime. Naofumi was able to bond with and sympathize with her because she needed him just as much as he needed her. This makes the payoff in episode four all the more meaningful. He was finally able to recover from his trust issues and see Raphtalia for the adult she's become; after she assured him that she would never leave his side. And she's not following him simply because she is his slave. Also, Naofumi needed a fighter. Demi-humans(while convenient) have the ability to age as they level. Now instead of Raphtalia being a child who needs constant supervision, she's become an adult who can be a true companion to Naofumi and aid him throughout his journey. At this point, I guess I'll wait until this series has ended and see if my friend can tell me if it's worth watching to the end when he finished it. Because watching this on an episode by episode basis isn't going to do it for me when the writers can't make up their minds where they want to go with their characters. Just watch until episode 4. Once Raphtalia is finished aging(eps 4) it doesn't happen again. Their relationship continues to grow, but it won't have any more transitions like the transition between episode 2 and episode 3. |
KilluanFeb 5, 2019 2:12 PM
SSL443 said: I'm not disputing that showing Naofumi's perspective does justification to the characterization and story vis-à-vis Raphtalia and her relationship with Naofumi. I'm suggesting that the PACING doesn't do justice to these elements. Again, you're relying on repetition. State what parts you particularly disagree with we go from there. Like I said before, chill out before you pop a vein. I understood that already, but the audience is not privy to this information until this specific scene in episode 4. And what's particularly wrong with that? Some like to have things unpacked gradually while others prefer to have things unpacked all at once. Then at that point it is a plot contrivance. How did she overcome her trauma and transform into a completely different personality in a week of off-screen time? Oh, because <insert fantasy mechanic here>. Once again, we come full circle to bad/lazy writing. More like you're just using "bad/lazy writing" as a mere buzzword. Make a claim, but never elaborate, amirite? And I already mentioned that it's your opinion and your opinion only if you think that's BS. I have little problems with it and that's my opinion. You don't know what the telephone game is, do you. Not an argument. |
vhagar8 said: What ur saying here is quite interesting because it underlines the problem we're having pretty well imo: ur too bound to the "classical" way of judging anime, the one u see in many reviews here on mal, anime aren't as simple as that approach might make u think they are. This shit isn't high art or some kind of avante garde new wave experimental genere. It is bound by the same story conventions as any other medium. Conventions can be broken, but not without good reason. And the author of Shield Hero is no genius. vhagar8 said: Raphtalia characterization is rushed if u look at that alone (at least as we viewers see it) and I agree with u on that, my point has never been the opposite. The problem here is with the last word "if u look at that ALONE", in this particular situation being rushed rather than gradually characterized is actually a merit rather than a flaw, because it's used to help the viewers see Naofumi's prospective of Raphtalia development, which is distorted by his trauma while still giving though a timeskip enough time to make that happen in a reasonable way, even if it happens off-screen. Okay, let's consider all of it TOGETHER. During episode 2, the storytelling is very linear and unassuming. There are no indications of how Naofumi is perceiving these events one way or the other. The standard assumption here is that the camera is showing us a third person perspective that is no different than if the viewer was there in person. Then episode 3 rolls around and Raphtalias character has changed drastically, as has the relationship dynamic between her and Naofumi. I fail to see where Naofumi's trauma has had any effect on the pacing of the story up to this point. Finally, in episode 4, there is a very clear, temporary transition to Naofmi's perspective, and we learn how he has seen Raphtalia up to this point. This doesn't retroactively fix the pacing of the story. There is no link between this perspective and what we've been shown so far. There are numerous ways that the author could have actually executed the story how you are suggesting. There could have been hard cuts, creating a more clipped, piecemeal documentation of the events in episode 2; there could have been internal monoglogue or flashbacks, or any other number of queues that indicate that the perception of a specific character is impacting the flow of the narrative. Instead, we get nothing. Dicking up the pacing and then coming back to say "oops, by the way that was all because of X" is not effective. vhagar8 said: U can't assume rushed = bad in any situation and u don't even look at the context, the "rules" to how to make a story aren't black or white, there's quite the number of nuances in the middle There's a difference between rushed pacing and using narrative queues to convey a sense of urgency or distorted time flow/altered consciousness. There are plenty of films and books that subvert audience expectations by witholding information, idienties, and creating plot twists. A good example is the 1966 film Blow-Up, which includes elements of questioning perception. There are a lot of unanswered questions, but the film acknowledges them. There are no instances where a plot hole emerges, only to be curdely patched by some later scene. |
Milennin said: Killuan said: It makes sense because: 1.) He was convicted of rape and no one would party with him 2.) At this point he had severe trust issues 3.) He had 40 silver to his name 4.) Raphtalia was one of the four slaves he could afford. 5.) Naofumi knew he could cure her sickness and would likely be the easiest to use. 6.) After his anger subsided a bit he realized Raphtalia had a worse life than he did, so he started to treat her better. 7.) Who cares if she's a girl? It's fiction there is no rule stating men are stronger than women in fantasy. Often times it's the opposite. 8.) Naofumi could not fight on his own because he's the shield hero and that's why he needed a partner in the first place. There was a good reason. This anime is about revenge and fighting the waves. As well as the wholesome relationship between Raphtalia and Naofumi (and their other companions down the line) -- Raphtalia can not be his equal as a child, nor would it make sense for her to be a badasss in battle if she were a child. This isn't a relationship between a slave and his master, it's a relationship of two people who find solace in each others company who also happen to have a similar goal. Not to mention that's just how demi-humans are in this world setting. That's why they're enslaved and have the same legal standing as monsters. She didn't point a blade to his face...You must have turned the anime off before you actually saw the distance between the two while Raphtalia was holding the blade. Raphtalia is very grateful to Naofumi and if you actually gave it until episode 4 you would see to what degree. The thing about Naofumi referring to the town as a bunch of lolicons is also explained in episode four. Honestly, a lot of your issues with this anime are explained in episode four. 1. Buying a pet/animal companion goes around this issue. 2. Pet/Animal companion makes trust a non-issue. 3. He could grind more silver and buy something better later on. He's in a world based on an RPG. Grinding for resources is a common thing. In fact, it's often better to grind more to buy something of higher quality than to settle for the lowest you can afford the moment you got gold to spend. This is common gamer knowledge. 4. And she was clearly in terrible state. So, either he was getting a bad deal, or he simply had too little money to buy something of quality. In which case, more grinding for gold would've solved this issue. 5. I doubt he knew that for a fact, because he's dealing with a being he's never met before. Also, she was stated to have mental illness. You don't cure that. 6. So he becomes generic MC who takes good care of cute girl companion. While not terrible per se, it's not very interesting to see. 7a. She was a little girl. Sick. Still a child. Lack of combat experience. And at that point, he was unaware of her growth through level-ups, so he would've had to assume she was going to stay a child for the duration of their adventure when he bought her. That's poor decision making, no matter how you look at it. He lucked out that she did, in fact, turn out to physically grow as she levelled up. 7b. He was betrayed by a woman, so his trust issue was with females. That was how they ended episode 1. It would've made more sense to settle for either a guy slave or an animal companion. 8. Yes, so he would be far better off getting a healthy pet after grinding the gold for one. 1. That doesn't solve the problem of him not being able to attack, and given that your every day pet is not able to take on monsters, said pet would last all of 2 seconds in a battle against the 2 headed dog. 2. See response to 1. 3. It took him a few weeks just to have enough silver to buy Raphtalia, get her some equipment, and feed the both of them. And the next wave was 2 weeks from then, and lets not forget he wasn't at a high level by that point as well, so he was severely under leveled and under equipped compared to the other heroes, and it would not have improved without Raphtalia being there. Also you're talking about her like she won't improve and get stronger over time. 4. Again, he didn't have the time to grind for more gold, he had all of 37 silver coins (31 for buying Raphtalia, and then told the armor shop guy that his budget to be under 6 silver coins). 5. Those "mental health issues" were actually her nightmares and the torture/abuse done to her by her previous master. 6. Yeah but, that's just your opinion man. 7a. Yes he did luck out with this, but even still a highly trained/level little girl is still more effective than an adult/monster that's barely trained and is at a low level. 7b. The gender played a part in why he picked her, in his eyes having a slave of the same gender as the one that betrayed him would make it feel like he had enslaved her by proxy. 8. Monster slaves cost more than demi-human slaves. And as we've already previously established, he didn't have a lot of money or time to make obtaining one reasonable or affordable. |
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VeryLTTP said: Again, you're relying on repetition. State what parts you particularly disagree with we go from there. Like I said before, chill out before you pop a vein. Yes, I'm repeating myself in order to be understood. I can't elaborate on a premise if that premise isn't first understood by all parties. |
SSL443 said: Yes, I'm repeating myself in order to bee understood. I can't elaborate on a premise if that premise isn't first understood by all parties. Then you are articulating poorly. If multiple people "aren't getting it", then at that point it's not just some mere coincidence. An ad nauseaum fallacy is still an ad nauseaum fallacy regardless of the reasons. |
VeryLTTP said: Then you are articulating poorly. If multiple people "aren't getting it", then at that point it's not just some mere coincidence. An ad nauseaum fallacy is still an ad nauseaum fallacy regardless of the reasons. At this point your ad nauseum is an ad nauseum. That at least is impressive. |
SSL443 said: At this point your ad nauseum is an ad nauseum. That at least is impressive. Then you don't know what an ad nauseaum is. You've been using that fallacy since you used the same arguments in response to different refutations presented to you while never directly addressing the points presented by those counterarguments. Meanwhile, me pointing out at your ad nauseaums is not an ad nauseaum of itself because I'm merely making an observation. An observation is not an argument and therefore, it cannot be a fallacy because fallacies are by definition, flawed arguments. And you're just proving my point further as you focus more on making personal potshots instead of saying things of actual substance... |
SSL443 said: vhagar8 said: What ur saying here is quite interesting because it underlines the problem we're having pretty well imo: ur too bound to the "classical" way of judging anime, the one u see in many reviews here on mal, anime aren't as simple as that approach might make u think they are. This shit isn't high art or some kind of avante garde new wave experimental genere. It is bound by the same story conventions as any other medium. Conventions can be broken, but not without good reason. And the author of Shield Hero is no genius. vhagar8 said: Raphtalia characterization is rushed if u look at that alone (at least as we viewers see it) and I agree with u on that, my point has never been the opposite. The problem here is with the last word "if u look at that ALONE", in this particular situation being rushed rather than gradually characterized is actually a merit rather than a flaw, because it's used to help the viewers see Naofumi's prospective of Raphtalia development, which is distorted by his trauma while still giving though a timeskip enough time to make that happen in a reasonable way, even if it happens off-screen. Okay, let's consider all of it TOGETHER. During episode 2, the storytelling is very linear and unassuming. There are no indications of how Naofumi is perceiving these events one way or the other. The standard assumption here is that the camera is showing us a third person perspective that is no different than if the viewer was there in person. Then episode 3 rolls around and Raphtalias character has changed drastically, as has the relationship dynamic between her and Naofumi. I fail to see where Naofumi's trauma has had any effect on the pacing of the story up to this point. Finally, in episode 4, there is a very clear, temporary transition to Naofmi's perspective, and we learn how he has seen Raphtalia up to this point. This doesn't retroactively fix the pacing of the story. There is no link between this perspective and what we've been shown so far. There are numerous ways that the author could have actually executed the story how you are suggesting. There could have been hard cuts, creating a more clipped, piecemeal documentation of the events in episode 2; there could have been internal monoglogue or flashbacks, or any other number of queues that indicate that the perception of a specific character is impacting the flow of the narrative. Instead, we get nothing. Dicking up the pacing and then coming back to say "oops, by the way that was all because of X" is not effective. vhagar8 said: U can't assume rushed = bad in any situation and u don't even look at the context, the "rules" to how to make a story aren't black or white, there's quite the number of nuances in the middle There's a difference between rushed pacing and using narrative queues to convey a sense of urgency or distorted time flow/altered consciousness. There are plenty of films and books that subvert audience expectations by witholding information, idienties, and creating plot twists. A good example is the 1966 film Blow-Up, which includes elements of questioning perception. There are a lot of unanswered questions, but the film acknowledges them. There are no instances where a plot hole emerges, only to be curdely patched by some later scene. You know what the problem is? You're criticizing different parts of the anime, and then blaming the author of the WN/LN for those things. In the WN/LN, the physical changes to Raphtalia are not revealed until Naofumi is able to see them as well, when the curse seal is removed and she goes back to him anyways. Also there is more early on stuff that develops their relationship and both characters that the anime doesn't show. IE; Raphtalia's cough doesn't instantly go away and he has to give her medicine multiple times, when he buys her the ball, she goes out to play with it while he's in the room he got an inn, some kids try to bully her and steal the ball, when she starts to level up and grow, her stomach is almost constantly growling because he's only giving her the same amount of food as when she still looked like she was 10 years old, etc. Obviously these are things that would slow down the pace to a crawl to cover every detail that takes place. Would those things have been nice to see covered? Yes. Does it make it bad writing to not cover these things? No. |
Demyx_IXFeb 5, 2019 2:45 PM
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VeryLTTP said: Then you don't know what an ad nauseaum is. You've been using that fallacy since you used the same arguments in response to different refutations presented to you while never directly addressing the points presented by those counterarguments. I've been repeating myself because these "refutations" have been of arguments I never made. It's like if I tap you on your left shoulder and you punched the guy on your right, it's that off target. Hence, I repeat myself in the hopes that you will actually respond to the point that I made instead of the one you imagined I made. VeryLTTP said: Meanwhile, me pointing out at your ad nauseaums is not an ad nauseaum of itself because I'm merely making an observation. An observation is not an argument and therefore, it cannot be a fallacy because fallacies are by definition, flawed arguments. Nice try trying to wiggle around with the semantics, but it's still a claim -> reasons -> evidence, thus an argument, and since you've been repeating it ad nauseam, it's an ad nauseam fallacy. QED. |
Demyx_IX said: You know what the problem is? You're criticizing different parts of the anime, and then blaming the author of the WN/LN for those things. In the WN/LN, the physical changes to Raphtalia are not revealed until Naofumi is able to see them as well, when the curse seal is removed and she goes back to him anyways. Also there is more early on stuff that develops their relationship and both characters that the anime doesn't show. IE; Raphtalia's cough doesn't instantly go away and he has to give her medicine multiple times, when he buys her the ball, she goes out to play with it while he's in the room he got an inn, some kids try to bully her and steal the ball, etc. Obviously these are things that would slow down the pace to a crawl to cover every detail that takes place. Would those things have been nice to see covered? Yes. Does it make it bad writing to not cover these things? No. Okay, I'll blame the makers of the anime and the author for letting his work get butchered. Problem fixed! |
SSL443 said: I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, so.Demyx_IX said: You know what the problem is? You're criticizing different parts of the anime, and then blaming the author of the WN/LN for those things. In the WN/LN, the physical changes to Raphtalia are not revealed until Naofumi is able to see them as well, when the curse seal is removed and she goes back to him anyways. Also there is more early on stuff that develops their relationship and both characters that the anime doesn't show. IE; Raphtalia's cough doesn't instantly go away and he has to give her medicine multiple times, when he buys her the ball, she goes out to play with it while he's in the room he got an inn, some kids try to bully her and steal the ball, etc. Obviously these are things that would slow down the pace to a crawl to cover every detail that takes place. Would those things have been nice to see covered? Yes. Does it make it bad writing to not cover these things? No. Okay, I'll blame the makers of the anime and the author for letting his work get butchered. Problem fixed! |
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SSL443 said: I've been repeating myself because these "refutations" have been of arguments I never made. It's like if I tap you on your left shoulder and you punched the guy on your right, it's that off target. Hence, I repeat myself in the hopes that you will actually respond to the point that I made instead of the one you imagined I made. Ah, the old put the refutations in quotes as a lazy handwave dismissal. Like I said, you haven't directly addressed the points of different refutations and keep repeating the same arguments rather than changing things up. That is a logical fallacy. Period. Nice try trying to wiggle around with the semantics, but it's still a claim -> reasons -> evidence, thus an argument, and since you've been repeating it ad nauseam, it's an ad nauseam fallacy. QED. I'm not wiggling around the semantics. I made a simple observation and that is that. And since you have not argued how your arguments are not ad nauseaum fallacies (in fact, you even admitted to relying on frequent repetition), then my observation stands. Again, observations are not arguments and therefore, me pointing out at your fallacies are not ad nauseaum fallacies. I would argue that you are wiggling around with the semantics because you failed to understand the true meaning of the specific fallacy and can't resist, but go with the "But you did it toooo!" complaint. |
Demyx_IX said: I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, so. Don't worry, there'll be a scene later that clears it all up. Some people don't like to have everything explained right from the start, you know. |
VeryLTTP said: Ah, the old put the refutations in quotes as a lazy handwave dismissal. Like I said, you haven't directly addressed the points of different refutations and keep repeating the same arguments rather than changing things up. That is a logical fallacy. Period. And you keep demolishing strawmans. How's that for a logical fallacy, hm? Not so nice now, is it? VeryLTTP said: I'm not wiggling around the semantics. I made a simple observation and that is that. And since you have not argued how your arguments are not ad nauseaum fallacies (in fact, you even admitted to relying on frequent repetition), then my observation stands. Ah, the old argument by assertion fallacy, my favorite. Your observation is a claim, nothing more, and it is based on flawed assumptions. So it is both an argument, wrong, and one you keep repeating to make yourself look superior because you put latin in italics. VeryLTTP said: Again, observations are not arguments and therefore, me pointing out at your fallacies are not ad nauseaum fallacies. I would argue that you are wiggling around with the semantics because you failed to understand the true meaning of the specific fallacy. Yeah. Please. |
SSL443 said: Demyx_IX said: I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, so. Don't worry, there'll be a scene later that clears it all up. Some people don't like to have everything explained right from the start, you know. Aaaaay lmao. Seriously though, most of your complaints should be reserved for the anime's choices on what to cover. Which in all fairness, very few animes are able to cover every small detail in the source materiall without being an absolute grind fest in terms of pace. See; Black Clover anime taking over 3 episodes to get to the start of the 2nd chapter of the manga. |
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SSL443 said: And you keep demolishing strawmans. How's that for a logical fallacy, hm? Not so nice now, is it? Claim -> reasons -> evidence. Claim? Check. Reasons and evidence? Nothing. Ah, the old argument by assertion fallacy, my favorite. Your observation is a claim, nothing more, and it is based on flawed assumptions. So it is both an argument, wrong, and one you keep repeating to make yourself look superior because you put latin in italics. Observations are not claims. And since you admitted, yourself, that you've relied on repeating the same arguments, you already have given corroborating evidence. Therefore, my so-called "assertion" is a corroborated observation. I would say that this part of your response is a perfect example of what you are accusing me of making. And on top of that, going for the good ol' ad hominem, eh? Yeah. Please. Glad you agree with me. |
Demyx_IX said: Aaaaay lmao. Seriously though, most of your complaints should be reserved for the anime's choices on what to cover. Which in all fairness, very few animes are able to cover every small detail in the source materiall without being an absolute grind fest in terms of pace. See; Black Clover anime taking over 3 episodes to get to the start of the 2nd chapter of the manga. I mean, granted. Being overwhelmed by material is understandable, but an adaptation also needs to stand on it's own. In some cases an adaptation is just a bad idea, but a flawed adaptation of a good source doesn't make the adaptation good by association. I get it if fans of the manga like the anime just for the chance to see a favorite story animated, but that doesn't change how I'm going to judge the show. |
VeryLTTP said: Reasons and evidence? Nothing. At least we agree on something. How many other fallacies can be worked into this thread? You haven't mentioned the subjectivist fallacy by name yet. |
SSL443 said: At least we agree on something. How many other fallacies can be worked into this thread? You haven't mentioned the subjectivist fallacy by name yet. You mean how you made a subjectivist fallacy in which you could've easily avoided had you focused more on the argumentative properties of the discussion instead of taking personal shots? I mean, it's not a great look when you make a claim that contradicts the evidence (whose source was you, btw) that corroborates my observation... But hey, if you want to keep punching yourself metaphorically in the name of getting the "getting the last word" trophy, be my guest. Conglaturations? |
VeryLTTP said: You mean how you made a subjectivist fallacy in which you could've easily avoided had you focused more on the argumentative properties of the discussion instead of taking personal shots? I mean, it's not a great look when you make a claim that contradicts the evidence (whose source was you, btw) that corroborates my observation... But hey, if you want to keep punching yourself metaphorically in the name of getting the "getting the last word" trophy, be my guest. Conglaturations? What argumentative properties of the discussion? It's been an uphill struggle just to get you to actually address the arguments I've been making. Can't really call it an argument when the opposite party is off tilting at windmills, while I'm over here wondering if language even conveys meaning anymore. I'm not even sure what you're doing is a strawman fallacy because that would imply you actually understood the original argument sufficiently to construct one. Truly bizzare stuff. |
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