Character depth has improved in Super

Thunderfrog said:
- Almost every arc featured a new villain that immediately made the previous seem infantile in power

-There was no technique discussed, ever, regarding fighting strategy. I suppose in Trunks vs. Cell they got close, when Cell admitted Trunks was stronger in power but too slow to keep up. At any rate, it was all about who had the "most power", rather than practical skill as a fighter.

Milennin said:

Super has already failed in the character aspect by completely changing how certain characters are meant to be: Goku has become one-dimensionally stupid. Piccolo became incredible soft. Vegeta is treated like comic relief.

Milennin said:
Good character moments/relationships in DBZ: Friendship between Gohan and Piccolo, when Piccolo was still considered an enemy of sorts, but then seeing Piccolo grow into an ally.
Vegeta changing from enemy into ally over the course of the series. As well as him slowly accepting the fact Goku is the strongest. Him holding his son before he killed himself in battle.
Gohan returning to what he always wanted to do after the timeskip. His relationship with Videl.
Goku putting his trust into Gohan. Even though it came at nearly the cost of the planet and everyone on it, it was still interesting to see Goku have so much faith in his son (<- also shows that Goku is perfectly capable of making mistakes)
Kirillin going into a relationship with 18.

Super has already failed in the character aspect by completely changing how certain characters are meant to be: Goku has become one-dimensionally stupid. Piccolo became incredible soft. Vegeta is treated like comic relief.

As for the writing, it's still as bad as ever. I honestly see nothing about it that's better than DBZ. I mean, there was literally no reason to go through that tournament arc in Super, as Champa could have just held the Dragon Balls for himself and used them in secret without anyone ever finding out. Plus, the only reason he wanted to use them was to bring over planet Earth so he could eat the food on it. That was just terrible, LOL.


First point is common in battle shounen in general.

Dragon Ball Z's appeal wasn't the strategy, it was the display of insanely strong combat techniques. Even so, it still had its moments where there was more than just raw power used to fight the opponent:
-When Goku had to hold Raditz and sacrifice himself, just so Piccolo could hit take him down.
-The team fight against Nappa had a few strategies to try to kill him (even though they all failed).
-When Goku concealed his power level against the Ginyu Force to trick them into thinking he was much weaker than he really was.
-Goku using several tricks to get hits in on Frieza while he was much weaker than him (such as the underwater Kamehameha bombs).

Thunderfrog said:
- Almost every arc featured a new villain that immediately made the previous seem infantile in power

-There was no technique discussed, ever, regarding fighting strategy. I suppose in Trunks vs. Cell they got close, when Cell admitted Trunks was stronger in power but too slow to keep up. At any rate, it was all about who had the "most power", rather than practical skill as a fighter.

And as a show in general, it wasn't very intriguing to watch any filler or story centric episodes, because as Toriyama himself admitted, "I'm not very good at writing about relationships." The result was everything was flat when fighting wasn't happening.

Now in Super, it seems to have improved. People seem to be okay with Gohans lack of power, because he's established character steeped in family life. Trunks grows, through a relationship with Mai. We see Veggie and Bulma sleeping in the same room, interacting, and exchanging dialogue. Goku and Chichi have scenes that show feeling, exposing more love there than ChiChi did when he was dying of the heart disease.

Just about every character has had their depth increased, and the writing is better than Z in my own humble opinion. I think this is a big mix of Z and DB, and I'm okay with it. I don't expect the same things I did of Z, and honestly, I didn't expect much from Z other than 8 - 12 seconds of good fighting animation from time to time.

Gohans relationship with Videl was almost completely skipped over. Videl spent time with Gohan, and he obliged to keep a secret. He got mad at her getting her ass kicked, but let it go easily. So we saw they had "feels" but nothing was ever really shown about their relationship other than Chi Chi fawning over Videl a bit in a filler episode.

dhochoy said:

This is bad, why...?


1. Goku discussed multiple tactics on beating Raditz to Piccolo as he charged his SPC right from holding Raditz off, exploit the tail weakness, and holding him down with a full-nelson after he was wounded by Gohan knowing he would just chop off his tail.
-Piccolo and Krillin attempting to beat Nappa by him catching off-guard then having Gohan deliver the finishing blow (and when that fail, Krillin had a back-up tactic)
-Goku having Gohan hold Vegeta off as he entrusts Krillin to charge the Spirit Bomb and making Gohan turn Oozaru to beat Vegeta
-Vegeta attacking Dodoria and Zarbon individually when they least expect it knowing he can't beat them both at once
-Captain Ginyu damaging himself to throw Goku off so he can do the body change technique on him
-Goku exploiting Freeza's inability to sense ki
-Goku trying to fool Freeza into messing up his Death Saucers by maneuvering around him

These are just a few example of battle strategy being depicted...


Toriyama never said that... he only said he wasn't good at doing romance because he was uncomfortable around it.

I also wholeheartedly disagree with the notion there's no interesting filler or story-centric episodes. The Mr. Robot episode and most of Gohan's training for example was great filler (and widely regarded as so) that gave insight into his growth as a warrior. There's also the episodes where Goku and Piccolo go to get their driver's lessons or the additional stuff to the Cell Games 10 day wait.

The episodes where the Z-Warriors were hunting Cell down and the intricate cat-and-mouse search game on Namek were definitely intriguing.



Nobody held anything against Gohan for his lack of power (Goku even acknowledged Gohan's not a fighter at heart during the Cell Games)... the only person who held it against him was Vegeta. You would also have a point on the family life thing despite it's so poorly executed (though Super episode 74 was not bad at all). Fans are still complaining like crazy.

Trunks' relationship with Mai is incredibly forced and going by the present timeline... downright creepy.

I'll give you Vegeta x Bulma and Krillin x #18 but Super never showed anything of Gohan x Videl that we already hadn't seen. Also, aside from Chi-Chi running to Goku's side when he nearly died from Frost and Hit Super doesn't even acknowledge them as a couple. Z had Goku thinking of Chi-Chi first in times of weakness and making an effort to make her happy, Chi-Chi acknowledges Goku is who he is, they have hugged and kissed (implied), and Chi-Chi mourns Goku's death and happily welcomes him back while in Super Goku is apparently so dim he doesn't know what kissing is and Chi-Chi wants to make Goku her fucking slave.


How is making Goku a mentally challenged man who isn't even all that smart at fighting anymore more depth? How is making Gohan an uninteresting "nerdy loser" more depth? How is making Mr. Boo an unfunny Eric Cartman more depth? I sorry, but I honestly can't see how anyone can consider Super is better written. The only people I can see believing that are people who never really bothered to see DBZ for it's full worth


We practically saw Videl fall for Gohan's kind-hearted and humbled nature despite his strength. You can say Z never gave insight into Gohan's feelings for her but Super never really expands on them either.