UnpopularAnime said: ehh... i always mention it's okay as long it enough.. you can explan it later..Kuma said: Why didn't you say so?no, i don't said no explanation at all.. just enough sanse to make plot moving is enough... you can also intended to not explained and showed it later for more impact... lets take example, why makoto act soo retard? wht's reason behind such a thing? is his parent abusive? is he has bad background? is that ever explained? can i called it plot hole? stop giving me bullshit generalization "every teen is horny teen" argument... Of course not every thing needs to be explained, but somethings, such as a character becoming rich, does. It's different if the character isn't telling anyone about it, and only the newly rich character knows why, but when all the other characters know and act like it's always been like this, it is a problem. So with this extreme example, if a plot hole like this exists in an anime, then it has a problem. also what the different btwenn my example about makoto and yours? they are basicly same... it's like nitpicking something soo trivial and unnacessary that not even relevant... it's like asking how kayate no gotoku female MC soo rich.. we never see her parent works... lOl. |
TyrelMay 24, 2016 2:53 PM
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: I think that discussion is a mess because of your poor example that lack context. What more context does it need? A poor character becomes rich, all characters know why that character is rich, act like he has always been rich, but the viewer gets no explanation. Anything else doesn't matter at all, something unexplained happened, that changed all the characters' lives. Appendix.- The author never addresses this issue in the entire show. |
 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye.But does the heart have the right perspective? |
Cute girls doing cute things is way too simple to be considered a plot m8, unless you lower your standards that much. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
| @Kuma Do you have a link or a definition for sazae-san shows? I can't find one other than things about the show itself UnpopularAnime said: Your example is so generic and with no context that there are no basis for a meaningful discussion.@zal I think that discussion is a mess because of your poor example that lack context. What more context does it need? A poor character becomes rich, all characters know why that character is rich, act like he has always been rich, but the viewer gets no explanation. Anything else doesn't matter at all, something unexplained happened, that changed all the characters' lives. KoreaWS said: A plot can even be episodic, maybe you are referring to storyCute girls doing cute things is way too simple to be considered a plot m8, unless you lower your standards that much. |
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KoreaWS said: no, there is no such thing as too simple plot.. even small cause and effect relation can called plot... i hate remeber plot on episodic shows becaus ethey has too many plot... each episode has their own plot, and they are oftenly has their own overreaching plot... lets take example of your currently watching barakamon...Cute girls doing cute things is way too simple to be considered a plot m8, unless you lower your standards that much. there is episode when they are invite handa to the beach.. the plot goes > handa got task watching kids to the beach > they are going to beach > kids make trouble > handa have problem with it > problem resolved in the end of episode what above is plot... sure it's only one episode plot, but it still has plot of it's episode... new episode will make new plot based on what even already happened... i don't see this anything different with normal overreaching plot.. every episode on k-on also works that wat... just like normal wood and jointed wood.. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
zal said: it's japanese defininiton of shows that their character doesn't age an has episodic story... another example would be doraemon, lupin 3, city hunter, crayon shinchan, golgo 13, kochikame, pokemon, ETC..@Kuma Do you have a link or a definition for sazae-san shows? I can't find one other than things about the show itself @kamisama751 ooops.. sorry... well,, pretty much you get my point... i don't spoiling exact event anyways... still entertaining... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @zal I do refer to plot, the line that ties the single stories of the big story. K-on's plot is CGDCT, and each episode revolves around that. Mushishi is wise guy solving mushi problems, Samurai Champloo is trio of guys embark on an adventure through anachronic Japan looking for the samurai that smells like sunflowers, and so on. Each one has episodic stories, but the plot ties them with a purpose. When saying "no plot", I think the meaning of that phrase is "the plot is really simple". |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: how if i told you thing you called "simple plot" is much harder to make than overreaching plot? you have to make many story concept, maintancing the spirit, recycling it when necessary, and alwasy remeber progression that has been done... overreaching plot obly has one plot to progress, even everything... which is the diefiniton of simple... When saying "no plot", I think the meaning of that phrase is "the plot is really simple". that's why most of shows like that published very unregulary and slow in manga... @Zal got the link after hard googling, LMAO.. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotAllowedToGrowUp |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: Then my intuition was kinda right so I don't see the issue with "I think that this kind of story has a new premise for each mini story so it is an exception." but even in this kind of story there is usually a line of dialogue that justifies the new premise of the episodic plot. It is not that made up like Unpopularanime said. It's more like the grandpa died and let a lot of money to the mc then the plot revolves around what he does with the current starting point. It would be a plot hole because most likely the grandpa wouldn't be mentioned before and it comes out of the blue but since it is the premise of a new plot I find it excused.it's japanese defininiton of shows that their character doesn't age an has episodic story... another example would be doraemon, lupin 3, city hunter, crayon shinchan, golgo 13, kochikame, pokemon, ETC.. Still have too see an extreme plot hole like the one unpopularanime mentioned, it is not that hard to make an excuse so they usually do. KoreaWS said: But even the episodic adventures can be considered plot while the whole (that you mentioned) is more like the story.@zal I do refer to plot, the line that ties the single stories of the big story. K-on's plot is CGDCT, and each episode revolves around that. Mushishi is wise guy solving mushi problems, Samurai Champloo is trio of guys embark on an adventure through anachronic Japan looking for the samurai that smells like sunflowers, and so on. Each one has episodic stories, but the plot ties them with a purpose. When saying "no plot", I think the meaning of that phrase is "the plot is really simple". |
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KoreaWS said: UnpopularAnime said: What more context does it need? A poor character becomes rich, all characters know why that character is rich, act like he has always been rich, but the viewer gets no explanation. Anything else doesn't matter at all, something unexplained happened, that changed all the characters' lives. Appendix.- The author never addresses this issue in the entire show. It wouldn't make much of a difference. If a character says something 5 episodes later like "I wish I could win a lottery like rich character" Then it is explained, but there is still a hole. Take Kono subarashii for an example: |
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zal said: @Kuma Do you have a link or a definition for sazae-san shows? I can't find one other than things about the show itself UnpopularAnime said: Your example is so generic and with no context that there are no basis for a meaningful discussion.What more context does it need? A poor character becomes rich, all characters know why that character is rich, act like he has always been rich, but the viewer gets no explanation. Anything else doesn't matter at all, something unexplained happened, that changed all the characters' lives. KoreaWS said: A plot can even be episodic, maybe you are referring to storyCute girls doing cute things is way too simple to be considered a plot m8, unless you lower your standards that much. No it was to make a point, you just repeated yourself.. No more context is needed, I was making a simple point - a hole in a plot as extreme as this example is bad. You even understood it, so I don't get what you're trying to say.. |
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UnpopularAnime said: no, the characters know, that's why they also never asking... but we (viewer) never know.. ar at least childhood friend supposed to know... Kuma said: K also, K-ON, or CGDCT in general does have plot... f8 me... ehh... i always mention it's okay as long it enough.. you can explan it later.. also what the different btwenn my example about makoto and yours? they are basicly same... it's like nitpicking something soo trivial and unnacessary that not even relevant... it's like asking how kayate no gotoku female MC soo rich.. we never see her parent works... lOl. Makoto from school days? It's part of his personality. That's different. Personalities are dynamic and naturally change. If he stopped being dumb half way through, then it wouldn't need a direct explanation still. Cause no one really knows, even the characters in the anime, and the only way you can find out, is by watching his behavior. But if he took a drug, and that made him change, and all the other characters knew about it, then it would have to be explained. It's the same with the rich person. If he got rich, all the characters knew how he got rich, then the viewer didn't see what made him rich, but the other characters did. But if he was rich, and the other characters were wondering how, then it would be fine to not let the viewer know. usually things like this is estabilished in the beginning.. i never know this is actually happened in series... usually at least forshadowed before hand... @zal who writer will that stupid to do such a thing? lOl.. maybe except inferno cop level shows which is understable when they suddenly pull out grandma |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: no, the characters know, that's why they also never asking... but we (viewer) never know.. ar at least childhood friend supposed to know... Makoto from school days? It's part of his personality. That's different. Personalities are dynamic and naturally change. If he stopped being dumb half way through, then it wouldn't need a direct explanation still. Cause no one really knows, even the characters in the anime, and the only way you can find out, is by watching his behavior. But if he took a drug, and that made him change, and all the other characters knew about it, then it would have to be explained. It's the same with the rich person. If he got rich, all the characters knew how he got rich, then the viewer didn't see what made him rich, but the other characters did. But if he was rich, and the other characters were wondering how, then it would be fine to not let the viewer know. usually things like this is estabilished in the beginning.. i never know this is actually happened in series... usually at least forshadowed before hand... @zal who writer will that stupid to do such a thing? lOl.. maybe except inferno cop level shows Just to be clear, the rich person example is made up. And as I said, personalities are different. How do we know the characters know? The most they could know, is that he has a mental illness, which is what i assumed anyways. I assumed so from his behavior. This is why personalities are different. Also, he was always like that, since the start of the show. If there was a rich character, that was always rich, it wouldn't need an explanation. It's because of the change, suddenly going from poor to rich. |
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UnpopularAnime said: Kuma said: no, the characters know, that's why they also never asking... but we (viewer) never know.. ar at least childhood friend supposed to know... usually things like this is estabilished in the beginning.. i never know this is actually happened in series... usually at least forshadowed before hand... @zal who writer will that stupid to do such a thing? lOl.. maybe except inferno cop level shows Just to be clear, the rich person example is made up. And as I said, personalities are different. How do we know the characters know? The most they could know, is that he has a mental illness, which is what i assumed anyways. I assumed so from his behavior. This is why personalities are different. Also, he was always like that, since the start of the show. If there was a rich character, that was always rich, it wouldn't need an explanation. It's because of the change, suddenly going from poor to rich. yes personalaties is different, but you can understand personalities of someone and knowing the reason why he act that way... and we never know about that... it's same as why character suddenly rich... makoto suddenly act that way since beginning... we never know the reason why he act that way... but i doubt chidhood friend doesn't know... i don't think any writer woudl just do that normally... giving explanation is not wasting amy effort either if it is that simple condition.. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: I am trying to say that there is no such extreme example unless they make it on purpose like in Inferno Cop, they are not kids writing for fun except for light novels authors so it has no relevancy. It is very rare to not have any explanation at all about important things like a huge change from poor to rich. They will come up with an excuse. If the excuse is logical than it is fine but if the excuse come out of nowhere (grandpa that was never mentioned before) then it is a plot hole.zal said: @Kuma Do you have a link or a definition for sazae-san shows? I can't find one other than things about the show itself Your example is so generic and with no context that there are no basis for a meaningful discussion. A plot can even be episodic, maybe you are referring to story No it was to make a point, you just repeated yourself.. No more context is needed, I was making a simple point - a hole in a plot as extreme as this example is bad. You even understood it, so I don't get what you're trying to say.. What I was trying to say was to change example. Then the Konosuba one is an if and I don't like to discuss ifs. Then how about this: In tokyo ghoul by setting ghouls exist since ancient times, however the world is exactly as our own now. The plot hole (inconsistency) is that despite the setting saying something the world-building doesn't take in consideration the setting and it is more like the ghouls suddenly appeared in the world. Kuma said: Pure art right there!@zal who writer will that stupid to do such a thing? lOl.. maybe except inferno cop level shows which is understable when they suddenly pull out grandma |
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kamisama751 said: Well that all depends whether shes honest or lying to her feelings when she spouts harsh remarks, she is just frank if it’s the former and shes a tsundere if the case is the latter.You said: Well I Found that she is somewhat harsh towards most other peeps, you may take her as either tsun or just frank sarcastic. But still she is somewhat stoic for me, although not in the level of kuudere. Mate, I can agree that she is somewhat stoic but she is definitely not a tsun tsun. xD |
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zal said: wait, inferno cop has plat hole that i just realized.. such balsemy for me to explore weakness on a perfection... i must ashamed my self... i am the one that wrong...Kuma said: Pure art right there!@zal who writer will that stupid to do such a thing? lOl.. maybe except inferno cop level shows which is understable when they suddenly pull out grandma |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: KoreaWS said: how if i told you thing you called "simple plot" is much harder to make than overreaching plot? you have to make many story concept, maintancing the spirit, recycling it when necessary, and alwasy remeber progression that has been done... overreaching plot obly has one plot to progress, even everything... which is the diefiniton of simple... When saying "no plot", I think the meaning of that phrase is "the plot is really simple". More complex plots are just easier to screw up. You are just referring to character interaction, which is also relevant. K-on has a simple CGDCT-on-a-school-club plot but it's (cute and simple) character (and cute) interactions drives the show forward on an entertaining way. Ergo Proxy also has a good character interaction, yet it's plot is more complex. I try to summarize it as "girl tries to discover what proxies are and the truth of the world, guy tries to discover who he is, people and robots start to discover the fatalism of their existence while the desolated world starts to recover from an enviromental catastrophe. " @zal http://literarydevices.net/plot/ I don't have a better source. I think I was partially off. Also, you both are overthinking the simple example of @UnpopularAnime |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
Kuma said: It is perfect indeed, incredible story with foreshadowing, natural flow of events and well placed plot twists. Incredible character developments like the flame boy (not sure of the name) and the cyborg that gave new level of depth to the industry. Astonishing animation that makes you cry... of joy for how real it seems. Pure enjoyment every episode, I was so entertained that episodes flew by in a moment and had the impression that the credits of the final episode lasted more than all the 10 episodes combined, of course it was just a sensation given from the revolutionary art. Full of inspirational musics and detailed background sounds that bring the environment alive.zal said: wait, inferno cop has plat hole that i just realized.. such balsemy for me to explore weakness on a perfection... i must ashamed my self... i am the one that wrong...Pure art right there! @Koreaws But that example is so general that it can't really be discussed |
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KoreaWS said: you can make everything complex thou if you think complex enough about it...Kuma said: how if i told you thing you called "simple plot" is much harder to make than overreaching plot? you have to make many story concept, maintancing the spirit, recycling it when necessary, and alwasy remeber progression that has been done... overreaching plot obly has one plot to progress, even everything... which is the diefiniton of simple... More complex plots are just easier to screw up. You are just referring to character interaction, which is also relevant. K-on has a simple CGDCT-on-a-school-club plot but it's (cute and simple) character (and cute) interactions drives the show forward on an entertaining way. Ergo Proxy also has a good character interaction, yet it's plot is more complex. I try to summarize it as "girl tries to discover what proxies are and the truth of the world, guy tries to discover who he is, people and robots start to discover the fatalism of their existence while the desolated world starts to recover from an enviromental catastrophe. " K-ON: a story about a girl who try find his identity by making a group with > people insecure about his own and too shy about his own skill > people who has supperiority problem always get problem because of it > people who are never know about the world and outside and not knowing how to interect > people who has too many confidance that make her have problem with another people they struggle each other to make sure their group will survive and find solution to each member.. okay, serious thou... no, it's not only character interaction, but plot as well... for overreaching plot, you only need one and add some side plot... for episodic plot shows, you has to make plot for each episode and make sure it's fresh each episode and not jarring.. are you talking about characterization? |
KumaMay 24, 2016 12:26 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
kamisama751 said: the problem is i can't avoid over thinking T_T.. that's why i usually avoid "smart" shows because i usally ended overthinking about it and ended up lowering my enjoyment about it... even shows like k-on can make me think like that... isn't that also my point....You said: Well that all depends whether shes honest or lying to her feelings when she spouts harsh remarks, she is just frank if it’s the former and shes a tsundere if the case is the latter. She doesn't blush while saying all that so she isn't one. ;) Kuma said: you can make everything complex thou if you think complex enough about it... K-ON: a story about a girl who try find his identity by making a group with > people insecure about his own and too shy about his own skill > people who has supperiority problem always get problem because of it > people who are never know about the world and outside and not knowing how to interect > people who has too many confidance that make her have problem with another people they struggle each other to make sure their group will survive and find solution to each member.. okay, serious thou... no, it's not only character interaction, but plot as well... for overreaching plot, you only need one and add some side plot... for episodic plot shows, you has to make plot for each episode and make sure it's fresh each episode and not jarring.. are you talking about characterization? Don't overthink and those are... more character settings. |
KumaMay 24, 2016 12:36 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Now you are overcomplicating a simple plot. For example, why is Bass girl's panty shot incident only a running gag and never explored (up until S2E03)? Because the show is simple. Kuma said: okay, serious thou... no, it's character interaction... for overreaching plot, you only need one and add some side plot... for episodic plot shows, you has to make plot for each episode and make sure it's fresh each episode and not jarring.. Also, you example of "overarching plot" necessarily must include "making plot for each episode and make sure it's fresh each episode and not jarring". Or else you have shows like Dragon Ball Z, the big 3, etc. There are also shows with various overarching plots, like FMA with Father's plan, the Eldricth brother's journey, Scar and the military, etc. You are also devaluating the value of an overarching plot. They have a merit over "no overarching" just for the simple fact they are trying something bigger. Failing or succeding is another thing, and is easier to fail with a more complex show. @zal yet is simple enough to convey the idea of plot hole through the omission by the author about a necessary element to keep the internal logic of the show. Look how many people justificatively call a hole the fact KnK doesn't adresses the limb amputation yet, when it should've adressed it from ep 1. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: Now you are overcomplicating a simple plot. For example, why is Bass girl's panty shot incident only a running gag and never explored (up until S2E03)? Because the show is simple. Kuma said: okay, serious thou... no, it's character interaction... for overreaching plot, you only need one and add some side plot... for episodic plot shows, you has to make plot for each episode and make sure it's fresh each episode and not jarring.. Also, you example of "overarching plot" necessarily must include "making plot for each episode and make sure it's fresh each episode and not jarring". Or else you have shows like Dragon Ball Z, the big 3, etc. There are also shows with various overarching plots, like FMA with Father's plan, the Eldricth brother's journey, Scar and the military, etc. You are also devaluating the value of an overarching plot. They have a merit over "no overarching" just for the simple fact they are trying something bigger. Failing or succeding is another thing, and is easier to fail with a more complex show. > ehh... that panty shot is for blackmailing her to allow her being slave... isn't that normal thing to do if you have another people secret? > episodic plot also has overreaching plot too for contrary... take a look at natsume youujinchou, or aria, even K-on... just becaus eepisodic, you can't totaly forgot their original plot... > no, i just want to saying things you call "simple plot" is not as easy as you think you are... also the one that devaluating episodic plot.. also they are also easier too fail too.. they are justmore rarely get adapted since they are also more often not boosting original source.. they have to make sure it sell to make one... that's why soo many amazing episodic series still not adapted like a distance neghborhood, emiade poporo, yokohama kaidanshi kikou, ETC |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| >blackmail=not comedic gag=normal and not despicable >Overarching plot=CGDCT=Too simple to care Kuma said: no, i just want to saying things you call "simple plot" is not as easy as you think you are... also the one that devaluating episodic plot.. also they are also easier too fail too.. they are justmore rarely get adapted since they are also more often not boosting original source.. they have to make sure it sell to make one... that's why soo many amazing episodic series still not adapted like a distance neghborhood, emiade poporo, yokohama kaidanshi kikou, ETC I too am aware of failures of even the simplest of plot. Look at Pan de Peace or Wagamama High Spec, the shows that are bad despite having a simple plot. I'm just saying valuating simple plots over more complex plots is wrong since the latter are easier to screw up. Is a matter of respect and fairness to appreciate a well made complex plot that didn't screwed up. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: >blackmail=not comedic gag=normal and not despicable >Overarching plot=CGDCT=Too simple to care > is it still calling blackmailing, even used for comedic scane... > it is just you doesn't give atention enough to care.. well... for this is personal refference mainly... i can't judge about that.. KoreaWS said: I too am aware of failures of even the simplest of plot. Look at Pan de Peace or Wagamama High Spec, the shows that are bad despite having a simple plot. I'm just saying valuating simple plots over more complex plots is wrong since the latter are easier to screw up. Is a matter of respect and fairness to appreciate a well made complex plot that didn't screwed up. > wagamama shoud has certain plot since it's VN, the problem VN is nto even release yet.. so they are only wasting it in character introduction... you can give me pan de peice, aggresive ritsuko,l and shounen ashibe, but the rest mostly overreaching plot... so, which one is more sell and liked? it should be obvious by number count... > no both of them are easy to screw... sure simple concept make you more simple to make, but it also give you many limitation that also can screw it self... you can even trick the viewer simply by making it complex, simplle shows flwas will really easy to spot... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
zal said: UnpopularAnime said: I am trying to say that there is no such extreme example unless they make it on purpose like in Inferno Cop, they are not kids writing for fun except for light novels authors so it has no relevancy. It is very rare to not have any explanation at all about important things like a huge change from poor to rich. They will come up with an excuse. If the excuse is logical than it is fine but if the excuse come out of nowhere (grandpa that was never mentioned before) then it is a plot hole.No it was to make a point, you just repeated yourself.. No more context is needed, I was making a simple point - a hole in a plot as extreme as this example is bad. You even understood it, so I don't get what you're trying to say.. What I was trying to say was to change example. Then the Konosuba one is an if and I don't like to discuss ifs. Then how about this: In tokyo ghoul by setting ghouls exist since ancient times, however the world is exactly as our own now. The plot hole (inconsistency) is that despite the setting saying something the world-building doesn't take in consideration the setting and it is more like the ghouls suddenly appeared in the world. Kuma said: Pure art right there!@zal who writer will that stupid to do such a thing? lOl.. maybe except inferno cop level shows which is understable when they suddenly pull out grandma Okay, I see what you mean, but I haven't watched enough anime to give an example, I was making up the example to show what an unacceptable plot hole would be. |
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Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: Just to be clear, the rich person example is made up. And as I said, personalities are different. How do we know the characters know? The most they could know, is that he has a mental illness, which is what i assumed anyways. I assumed so from his behavior. This is why personalities are different. Also, he was always like that, since the start of the show. If there was a rich character, that was always rich, it wouldn't need an explanation. It's because of the change, suddenly going from poor to rich. yes personalaties is different, but you can understand personalities of someone and knowing the reason why he act that way... and we never know about that... it's same as why character suddenly rich... makoto suddenly act that way since beginning... we never know the reason why he act that way... but i doubt chidhood friend doesn't know... i don't think any writer woudl just do that normally... giving explanation is not wasting amy effort either if it is that simple condition.. But there's a huge difference.. Characters are supposed to have a personality that developed since they were born, they represent real people. People don't just suddenly get rich for no reason. I don't even know how you still disagree with this.... a person getting a total change of lifestyle, just does not happen for no reason. |
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UnpopularAnime said: Kuma said: yes personalaties is different, but you can understand personalities of someone and knowing the reason why he act that way... and we never know about that... it's same as why character suddenly rich... makoto suddenly act that way since beginning... we never know the reason why he act that way... but i doubt chidhood friend doesn't know... i don't think any writer woudl just do that normally... giving explanation is not wasting amy effort either if it is that simple condition.. But there's a huge difference.. Characters are supposed to have a personality that developed since they were born, they represent real people. People don't just suddenly get rich for no reason. I don't even know how you still disagree with this.... a person getting a total change of lifestyle, just does not happen for no reason. yes, they are developing since born, but there is always some key event that change their view directly... that's what i am asking... that's still a hole... i can chose to be nitcpicking about it... but i chose not, because i am not that retard... no, people can rich because very rondom reason... i mean, you know facebook? who ever though it would be that succesful? there are many social media come before them.. who ever though denim will popular? yahoo ever denied to buy google engine when they are got sell...seriously, people being rich for no reason does happen... what we talking about again? LMAO... "a value that determined anime bad or god without personal bias" which you think exist but i don't think it is... |
KumaMay 24, 2016 3:56 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
UnpopularAnime said: You won't get far into anime with that kind of expectations.Kuma said: yes personalaties is different, but you can understand personalities of someone and knowing the reason why he act that way... and we never know about that... it's same as why character suddenly rich... makoto suddenly act that way since beginning... we never know the reason why he act that way... but i doubt chidhood friend doesn't know... i don't think any writer woudl just do that normally... giving explanation is not wasting amy effort either if it is that simple condition.. But there's a huge difference.. Characters are supposed to have a personality that developed since they were born, they represent real people. People don't just suddenly get rich for no reason. I don't even know how you still disagree with this.... a person getting a total change of lifestyle, just does not happen for no reason. |
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zal said: You missed the point...............................UnpopularAnime said: You won't get far into anime with that kind of expectations.But there's a huge difference.. Characters are supposed to have a personality that developed since they were born, they represent real people. People don't just suddenly get rich for no reason. I don't even know how you still disagree with this.... a person getting a total change of lifestyle, just does not happen for no reason. |
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Kuma said: UnpopularAnime said: But there's a huge difference.. Characters are supposed to have a personality that developed since they were born, they represent real people. People don't just suddenly get rich for no reason. I don't even know how you still disagree with this.... a person getting a total change of lifestyle, just does not happen for no reason. yes, they are developing since born, but there is always some key event that change their view directly... that's what i am asking... that's still a hole... i can chose to be nitcpicking about it... but i chose not, because i am not that retard... no, people can rich because very rondom reason... i mean, you know facebook? who ever though it would be that succesful? there are many social media come before them.. who ever though denim will popular? yahoo ever denied to buy google engine when they are got sell...seriously, people being rich for no reason does happen... what we talking about again? LMAO... "a value that determined anime bad or god without personal bias" which you think exist but i don't think it is... Yea, facebook got someone rich. If there was an anime about that, then it would have a major plot hole if the anime never mentioned that the character who made facebook actually made it. He gets a mansion, fancy cars, viewers wonder why. 5 episodes later, a friend says "When did you start your company?" A few more episodes later, the mc says "Now that I made facebook (first time knowing how he got rich), my life is great" Then the series ends. Yea no plot hole there, huh? You are delusional if you think nothing can make an anime "bad", excluding personal preference. Like, what are you smoking, if you think every anime ever made can't be considered bad? |
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| > is it still calling blackmailing, even used for comedic scane... You lost the idea that I was going for, how simple the panty consequence was. > it is just you doesn't give atention enough to care.. well... for this is personal refference mainly... i can't judge about that.. Quite the contrary, overthinkers give it much more credit that it has. > wagamama shoud has certain plot since it's VN, the problem VN is nto even release yet.. so they are only wasting it in character introduction Who cares, I'm just talking about the anime that has came out >you can give me pan de peice, aggresive ritsuko,l and shounen ashibe, but the rest mostly overreaching plot... so, which one is more sell and liked? it should be obvious by number count... Popularity=/=Quality. Relying on popularity is a logical fallacy, so be careful by using that argument. Anime right now is in a similar situation as pop music: A lot of mediocrity. > no both of them are easy to screw... sure simple concept make you more simple to make, but it also give you many limitation that also can screw it self... you can even trick the viewer simply by making it complex, simplle shows flwas will really easy to spot... A simple plot has less variables compared to complex plots. Leave all other factors outside(characters, setting, etc) and you would see I'm right. It even becomes more complex for both cases if you add characters, setting, etc, and even still the complex plot would be more easy to screw since the complex plot will influence the setting, the characters, etc in a much significative manner than a simple plot (ex.- compare K-On with Shinsekai Yori) |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
kamisama751 said: Kuma said: yes plot hole is plot hole, but is it make series good or bad? sure, you can use it as critics.. but if you think "your plot hole" is the one determined a series being good or bad in genereal, i call bullshit on that... A plot hole is a plot hole. It makes the plot worse. If something is bad or not is also based on other things. Don't mind me, I just want to give this piece of information. But how do you define a plot hole? What do we mean when we say 'it doesn't make any sense'? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
UnpopularAnime said: Kuma said: yes, they are developing since born, but there is always some key event that change their view directly... that's what i am asking... that's still a hole... i can chose to be nitcpicking about it... but i chose not, because i am not that retard... no, people can rich because very rondom reason... i mean, you know facebook? who ever though it would be that succesful? there are many social media come before them.. who ever though denim will popular? yahoo ever denied to buy google engine when they are got sell...seriously, people being rich for no reason does happen... what we talking about again? LMAO... "a value that determined anime bad or god without personal bias" which you think exist but i don't think it is... Yea, facebook got someone rich. If there was an anime about that, then it would have a major plot hole if the anime never mentioned that the character who made facebook actually made it. He gets a mansion, fancy cars, viewers wonder why. 5 episodes later, a friend says "When did you start your company?" A few more episodes later, the mc says "Now that I made facebook (first time knowing how he got rich), my life is great" Then the series ends. Yea no plot hole there, huh? > now i get the concept... it's kinda like mars of destruction plot... yes, it's plot hole, but more like incomplite plot... which is i don't think ever get approved in first place and extreamly rarely happened except very rare case... most of them "soo bad it's good" thou... so they still doing something right... UnpopularAnime said: You are delusional if you think nothing can make an anime "bad", excluding personal preference. Like, what are you smoking, if you think every anime ever made can't be considered bad? > no, i am even more close to saying that anime can become bad because personal bias... because anime is not sience... you can't just saying they bad because you said so, and it's fact... your subjectivity opinion is not fatc... every subjective critics are valid to saying a series bad as long it's logical... i don't think there is any objective critics can apply on anime that determined something bad or good... because bad or good it self subjective.. KoreaWS said: > is it still calling blackmailing, even used for comedic scane... You lost the idea that I was going for, how simple the panty consequence was. > it is just you doesn't give atention enough to care.. well... for this is personal refference mainly... i can't judge about that.. Quite the contrary, overthinkers give it much more credit that it has. > wagamama shoud has certain plot since it's VN, the problem VN is nto even release yet.. so they are only wasting it in character introduction Who cares, I'm just talking about the anime that has came out >you can give me pan de peice, aggresive ritsuko,l and shounen ashibe, but the rest mostly overreaching plot... so, which one is more sell and liked? it should be obvious by number count... Popularity=/=Quality. Relying on popularity is a logical fallacy, so be careful by using that argument. Anime right now is in a similar situation as pop music: A lot of mediocrity. > no both of them are easy to screw... sure simple concept make you more simple to make, but it also give you many limitation that also can screw it self... you can even trick the viewer simply by making it complex, simplle shows flwas will really easy to spot... A simple plot has less variables compared to complex plots. Leave all other factors outside(characters, setting, etc) and you would see I'm right. It even becomes more complex for both cases if you add characters, setting, etc, and even still the complex plot would be more easy to screw since the complex plot will influence the setting, the characters, etc in a much significative manner than a simple plot (ex.- compare K-On with Shinsekai Yori) > because the condition and result is praticaly simply? they are doing it for laugh, not actually bulliying her... but still in blackmailing ways... how is this a bad things? > complex shows is easier to make interesting because there is no limitiation on it and it can develop anything the way it want... simple plot must creative in their simplicity to make sure it still can entertaining... you can't use pretty much everything complex plot has... complex plot has more freedom... you think how longr un episodci simple shows can survive? stuff like kochikame, crayon shin-chan, saae-san and rantaro must though everything outside those complexity plot cleverly and they will ended up die soon it become jarring... > i am not saying anything about quality, who said that.. i am just imply that overreaching plot is easier to become succesfully because you imply that simple plot is just slapping character correlation and they will succes, no, it's not as simple as that... they need put effort on it too... overreaching are more produced because they are more easy to become succesful.. so there is more trial and error example which can be used... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma > because the condition and result is praticaly simply? they are doing it for laugh, not actually bulliying her... but still in blackmailing ways... how is this a bad things? And that's why it's still simple, K-on has character interactions to go for it, and it's characters are simple. > complex shows is easier to make interesting because there is no limitiation on it and it can develop anything the way it want... simple plot must creative in their simplicity to make sure it still can entertaining... you can't use pretty much everything complex plot has... complex plot has more freedom... you think how longr un episodci simple shows can survive? stuff like kochikame, crayon shin-chan, saae-san and rantaro must though everything outside those complexity plot cleverly and they will ended up die soon it become jarring... A complex show, just because t can do anything, doesn't means the quality will be good. Code Geass, Valvrave, Tokio Ghoul, Psycho Pass, all of them are popular and sucessful but they all suck (they can still be entertaining for the masses) > i am not saying anything about quality, who said that.. And that's the problem, sucess=/=quality >i am just imply that overreaching plot is easier to become succesfully because you imply that simple plot is just slapping character correlation and they will succes, no, it's not as simple as that... they need put effort on it too... overreaching are more produced because they are more easy to become succesful.. so there is more trial and error example which can be used... With the shit tier taste most anime fans have, is obvious shit tier shows will be more sucessful. Watch better shows, analyze more, then you would get why sucess is, most of the time, not the same as quality. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
kamisama751 said: TheBrainintheJar said: But how do you define a plot hole? What do we mean when we say 'it doesn't make any sense'? wikipedia said: In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.[1] Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. Do you need more?.............................................................. That's still a little vague. One man's missing information is another man's info dump. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| @KoreaWS >And that's why it's still simple, K-on has character interactions to go for it, and it's characters are simple. simplication doesn't mean have 0 creativity... doesn't also mean you can't take it in more serious ways... K-on doesn't have crative plot, but have details traits of character and how it affected to each member relationship and condition... >A complex show, just because t can do anything, doesn't means the quality will be good. Code Geass, Valvrave, Tokio Ghoul, Psycho Pass, all of them are popular and sucessful but they all suck (they can still be entertaining for the masses) i said easier, not always... > And that's the problem, sucess=/=quality... > With the shit tier taste most anime fans have, is obvious shit tier shows will be more sucessful. >Watch better shows, analyze more, then you would get why sucess is, most of the time, not the same as quality. coming from people who more than half it's favorite popular, you talking really big to looking down on popular shows... can you at least check your own list and my list before saying something? also popular =/= high quality.... popular = doing something right... also valvrave is not popular.. |
KumaMay 25, 2016 2:47 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma >simplication doesn't mean have 0 creativity... doesn't also mean you can't take it in more serious ways... K-on doesn't have crative plot, but have details traits of character and how it affected to each member relationship and condition... Dude, simple characters mean that you can put them in a lot of situations and see how they react more easily, simply because they have less variables on their personalities. K-on girls are simple (brash,curious,insecure,dim and strict) and is easy to handle them in a way it works. It did worked, yes, but it helped it had simple characters. Also, you can't get more simple in 2009 than high school and clubs. >i said easier, not always... And that's a lie, is easier to screw up on more complex shows because there are more variables. > And that's the problem, sucess=/=quality... > With the shit tier taste most anime fans have, is obvious shit tier shows will be more sucessful. >Watch better shows, analyze more, then you would get why sucess is, most of the time, not the same as quality. >coming from people who more than half it's favorite popular, >Haibane Renmei >MSG Thunderbolt >Hyouka >Shinsekai Yori >Anything but popular I didn't even brought Ergo Proxy or Tatami Galaxy, shows that get labeled as pretentious and dismissed as bad every so on and then. Are you implying that I don't like those shows and that I'm just putting those to "show off"? >you talking really big to looking down on popular shows... can you at least check your own list and my list before saying something? I already did, that's why I said > analyze more, then you would get why sucess is, most of the time, not the same as quality. >popular = doing something right. Doing something right=/= quality. Milking otaku does not need quality tier material, just pander to their likes. I think we are watching the issue from 2 different PoV, and we aren't conciliating. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
| @KoreaWS > Dude, simple characters mean that you can put them in a lot of situations and see how they react more easily, simply because they have less variables on their personalities. K-on girls are simple (brash,curious,insecure,dim and strict) and is easy to handle them in a way it works. It did worked, yes, but it helped it had simple characters. Also, you can't get more simple in 2009 than high school and clubs. simple characters also mean you have more works to make single condition keep entertaining for many times... joke is not works twice, same as plot.. you have to make it distinctive enough with sopo many limitation... that's more complex thing to do than broading plot on complex story... also crayong shinchan is story about very little obvious family, and it;s already run for years... i am not even talking about longest long -run ever sazae-san who in same boat... > And that's a lie, is easier to screw up on more complex shows because there are more variables. and because there are more variable, you also have more ways to develop and entertain people... you have more possibilites and need to chose one... >Anything but popular I didn't even brought Ergo Proxy or Tatami Galaxy, shows that get labeled as pretentious and dismissed as bad every so on and then. Are you implying that I don't like those shows and that I'm just putting those to "show off"? >you talking really big to looking down on popular shows... hyouka and freaking thunderbolt is not popular? i like what you smoke there dude... no, i am not implaying you using fake favorite just for show off.. it even better that way... i am implaying that you are big hypocrite because lookijng down on popular shows when yourself also liking popular shows... > can you at least check your own list and my list before saying something? no you don't... i bet you not even know my favorites.. and you not even know about your own favorite either... > Doing something right=/= quality. Milking otaku does not need quality tier material, just pander to their likes. i never imply that... i just saying overraching plot is more oftenly used... more oftenly used mean has higher possibility to succes too.. is it that hard to grasp? > I think we are watching the issue from 2 different PoV, and we aren't conciliating. look's like it is... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @kuma Entertainment=/=quality. Example=SAO Also more variables=more ways to screw up (ex.- reasonable characters, plot armor, inconsistency on the magic system, etc) Complex shows have a bigger chance to screw up by wrongly utilizing a variable or not considering a vital variable. They are more prone to inconsistencies compared to a simpler show that has to handle less variables and can just add new situations to spice up things. Overarching can't have that luxury since they have an overarching plot, having something unrelated to plot or character development makes the show worse because they are adding filler. >Hyouka=popular I'd like to differ. Even KyoAni fans hate that show due to how boring it can be. If anything, it's popular because is part of KyoAni's portfolio, one of the most talented in the medium. >Not knowing my favorites "Ohh shit, I put random shows on my favorites, brb gonna fix that" Of course I know them. I like them for a reason. >Not knowing your list You can't be serious about this claim when your list is public >i just saying overraching plot is more oftenly used... more oftenly used mean has higher possibility to succes too. The fact an overarching plot is used more frequently doesn't implies anything about it's probability of success. Osomatsu-san leaded the disc sales on it's year and that's not an "overarching plot" series. Haruhi didn't had more of an overarching plot as K-ON has and you know how sucessful it was. Cowboy Bebop is episodic too and it was pretty successful at least in the west. Unless you mean something like "there's more overarching plot shows out there so by numbers there are more sucessful overarching plot shows than sucessful no-overarching plot shows", which is mere statistics that doesn't implies anything close to "i just saying overraching plot is more oftenly used... more oftenly used mean has higher possibility to succes too." It just says overarching plot shows have been more produced compared to SoL. You can't use statistics to determine what kind of plot is the hardest to do well, you go to literature to solve that question. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
| @KoreaWS > Entertainment=/=quality. Example=SAO where i imply that? >I'd like to differ. Even KyoAni fans hate that show due to how boring it can be. If anything, it's popular because is part of KyoAni's portfolio, one of the most talented in the medium. it sold more than 10K (it's already good series to breaking 10K), it also make it's novel series very popular... it sold much better than many kyoani shows like amaburi, kyokai no kanata, nichijou or even hibike that has upcoming second season... >"Ohh shit, I put random shows on my favorites, brb gonna fix that" Of course I know them. I like them for a reason. no, i don't mean you not even know your own favorite at all, you just not even informative about your own favorite.. see point above.. i don't even need your reason why you put them there... i am asking why you looking down on popular shows when yours is not less popular either... > You can't be serious about this claim when your list is public have you known about furiko? or a country douctor? or even shitcom (or nagaoi takena in general)? i mean not simply knowing but also knowladgable about it... so you know about it popularity, the creator, the production ETC.. > The fact an overarching plot is used more frequently doesn't implies anything about it's probability of success. Osomatsu-san leaded the disc sales on it's year and that's not an "overarching plot" series. Haruhi didn't had more of an overarching plot as K-ON has and you know how sucessful it was. Cowboy Bebop is episodic too and it was pretty successful at least in the west. so does evangelion, bakemonogatari, gundam franchise, macroos franchise, fate franchise, madoka franchise, ETC. soo what? i simply implaying that more used = more often succesful.. because it's just industries natural reaction to playing save... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".. anime industries is not exception... > Unless you mean something like "there's more overarching plot shows out there so by numbers there are more sucessful overarching plot shows than sucessful no-overarching plot shows", which is mere statistics that doesn't implies anything close to "i just saying overraching plot is more oftenly used... more oftenly used mean has higher possibility to succes too." It just says overarching plot shows have been more produced compared to SoL. You can't use statistics to determine what kind of plot is the hardest to do well, you go to literature to solve that question. i never imply this.. it was you that saying simple plot is easier to make.. you are the one that nullify your own argument... i am want to saying that simple is not that simple to always been made.. sure it can works once, but maintance it has more effort too.. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma I'll take the popularity/favorite argument as my loss. I do like those shows but not because they are popular, yet you bring a good point about me not knowing how popular those are. About this, however >i am asking why you looking down on popular shows when yours is not less popular either > i am implaying that you are big hypocrite because lookijng down on popular shows when yourself also liking popular shows... Because the popular shows I put down are bad AND popular. Some shows I put as favorites have their issues too (namely Hyouka and Thunderbolt) so don't come here and say I claim them as holier than anything else, since if you took the time to see my list, you would've seen the scores I gave, portraying than the things I like have flaws too. You just jumped to that conclusion because I like popular things, without even thinking that I see the flaws on those popular shows I like, or that I have a reason to say that popular shows are bad other than they are popular, which is an stupid way of thinking. So you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I say popular =/= quality while liking popular shows is wrong since I'm stating that "popular is not the same as quality", which is logical. >>> The fact an overarching plot is used more frequently doesn't implies anything about it's probability of success. Osomatsu-san leaded the disc sales on it's year and that's not an "overarching plot" series. Haruhi didn't had more of an overarching plot as K-ON has and you know how sucessful it was. Cowboy Bebop is episodic too and it was pretty successful at least in the west. >so does evangelion, bakemonogatari, gundam franchise, macroos franchise, fate franchise, madoka franchise, ETC. soo what? i simply implaying that more used = more often succesful.. because it's just industries natural reaction to playing save... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".. anime industries is not exception... Why, then, are more moe shows in the industry with the same simple plot? because Haruhi, lucky star and K-on paved the way. They are becoming more popular. Bakuon, Pan de Peace, Sansha Sanyiou, Anne Happy, Flying Witch, Tanaka-kun, all shows from this season that have the same level of plot simplicity and moe factor (mostly). You also have to consider ecchi too, something that can also have superficial plot and is a safe bet, not for the anime but for the franchise too. Overcomplicated plots have also failed. Re-zero is shock factor, Kabaneri has plot convenience everywhere, BnHA is an above average shounen, Bungou is average, Hundred is ecchi, Big Order and Mayoiga are average to bad, and many other shows that despite haveing an overarching show have a lot of flaws in their story. DO NOTE I'M NOT SAYING PEOPLE CAN'T AND SHOULDN'T ENJOY THEM, SINCE THERE ARE DIFFERENT TASTES IN THE COMMUNITY, I'm just pointing out that as stories they have a good number of flaws already, which are easy to make due to their overarching structure. Also, Eva is a brothel right about now, Bakemono doesn't has more overarching plot as K-on, since it also relies on character interaction, Gundam and Macross have had a lot of lows and bad iterations beside their good ones, fate is a vn that's popular, not necessarily good from a story perspective, but more for the premise and universe it is based on, and some characters are good. Madoka is shock factor, not even a good story. Shock factor pretty much sells a lot lately (AoT, Anything Gen Urobutchi, Re-Zero, Mirai Nikki, Tokio Ghoul) so it is also a relatively safe bet. I also stated that the "more used = more often succesful" is wrong because you can't derivate how good shows are from statistics, only how popular they are, and even then disc sales is incomplete information since you don't account for people using stream services or pirate streaming, and disc sales does not account on how popular the franchise is (manga-LN-VN-etc). It's there on the argument you dismissed as "I never implied that". And obviously a simple plot is not esay to make, there are shows that fail at that, yet it is still easier compared to harder plots where is easier to screw up. And I now see where we aren't conciliating: I'm talking about story, you are talking about how it sells >>> You can't be serious about this claim when your list is public >have you known about furiko? or a country douctor? or even shitcom (or nagaoi takena in general)? i mean not simply knowing but also knowladgable about it... so you know about it popularity, the creator, the production ETC.. So now knowing about " popularity, the creator, the production ETC" is relevant to judge if the show is good? Obviously every writer/director has it's style, but you don't need to know that in order to see and judge a show. After all, you are judging the show, not what's behind it. I would give every KyoAni show 10/10 if effort were a thing to judge. Also, I know furiko. It's a really good short. Shitcom is shit (pun intended), but I got it. I can't talk and criticize shorts as I try with anime though, since shorts have a concise point and don't need that much time to get it across. That's why I don't even bother to give them scores as I do with anime. |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
| Personally? When people, mainly manga purists, bash at an anime for not being an exact replica of the original source. They will grasp at straws to make the anime sound like complete shit when in reality it's not the case. It's like people aren't allowed to use their imagination or something. Also pacing. The chimera ant arc was so damn boring for the first 25 episodes or so. I mean that was rough to watch. |
| Because the popular shows I put down are bad AND popular. Some shows I put as favorites have their issues too (namely Hyouka and Thunderbolt) so don't come here and say I claim them as holier than anything else, since if you took the time to see my list, you would've seen the scores I gave, portraying than the things I like have flaws too. You just jumped to that conclusion because I like popular things, without even thinking that I see the flaws on those popular shows I like, or that I have a reason to say that popular shows are bad other than they are popular, which is an stupid way of thinking. So you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I say popular =/= quality while liking popular shows is wrong since I'm stating that "popular is not the same as quality", which is logical. no, i am not take any words about correlation between popularity and quality... it was you.. you are the one that bring popular anime = bad quality when i bring a series popularity... all of discussion i only imply overreaching plot is more often used because it's more often to succesfull.. which lead more trial and error example that showing they are is same level as non complex plot.. no one will make something that hard to sell and hard to make continously... i don't said anything about quality... read again... Why, then, are more moe shows in the industry with the same simple plot? i don't really want to explain one by one series... also if you can't distinctive moe series, it's your own fault, not writer... as SOL lovers, i already can distinctive them because their different is simple... this is matter of prefference again, so i don't want to bother argue with this.. funny if you mention harem ecchi, because most harem ecchi does have overreaching plot, mostly also complex too especially non sol harem.. don't saying complex plot is only for shows you like... also the amount of ecchi harem is infact declining, both in quantity and quality.. prove me wrong... back in the 90's it's like 3-5 ecchi shows from 40 TV series running, now we "only" get 6-100 from near 100 Tv series running.. it's amount of fanservice that increasing, but that's mainly because time slot transmigration factor... the cencorship also get strighter over the years too... also more succesful =/= being good... you like have mindset that sccuseful = quality shows... NO! succesful = sells good! again, entertainmkent medium is for mass, not only for you... so not you or even me can determined quality of shows because the purpose of industry is gain profit... not satisfy little sample like us you like it or not... i am honestly not even get satisfying by anime medium... i am more active in manga rather than anime... manga satisfy me meore.. o_O also yes, i am using disc sels as main information source... sure there is many factor that determined a series popularity (like original source, merchendise, tv ratings, comunity reception, ETC), but little information is better than nothing! and what easy to find is original source and BD sells... And I now see where we aren't conciliating: I'm talking about story, you are talking about how it sells my point above... So now knowing about " popularity, the creator, the production ETC" is relevant to judge if the show is good? Obviously every writer/director has it's style, but you don't need to know that in order to see and judge a show. After all, you are judging the show, not what's behind it. I would give every KyoAni show 10/10 if effort were a thing to judge. it is irrelevant to judge the quality, but it is relvant to judge reception... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma >you like have mindset that sccuseful = quality shows >"[...]you saying that I'm a hypocrite because I say popular =/= quality while liking popular shows is wrong, since I'm stating that "popular is not the same as quality", which is logical." That's something I said and something you quoted. Success is not equal to quality. Overarching plots migth be sucessful because it sells, yet that doesn't means it's easier to make a good show with overarching plot, since again, they have more variables that can cause a trainwreck of the story compared to simpler plots. You can add gore, fanservice and whatnot and fans that don't care about story quality will still like it since it entertains them, and as much as I know different tastes for everyone, just because it's entertaining doesn't mean it's good, only means that people get entertained by it, be it for any number of reasons they have. As an extreme example, the movie "The Room" is entertaining but is not a good movie. >more succesful =/= being good THAT HAS BEEN MY ENTIRE POINT ALL THIS TIME. >also yes, i am using disc sels as main information source... sure there is many factor that determined a series popularity (like original source, merchendise, tv ratings, comunity reception, ETC), but little information is better than nothing! and what easy to find is original source and BD sells. But that little information is still incomplete, since it's only a part of the picture. And we bring again the issue that more succesful =/= being good >it is irrelevant to judge the quality, but it is relvant to judge reception... I agree on a market perspective (what sells and what doesn't, trends, quality=/=success), but not on a quality perspective. Judging reception doesn't tells you how good a show is, only tells you the preference of the consumers, which don't necessarily have a preference toward good stories or good characters. It is by judging a show how you get how good it is. I think deep down we agree on our points. You already stated the successful=/=good thing which I've been mentioning, and I already see your marketing perspective that is the basis of your point. So can we be done? |
| It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye. But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: i think it is, we are practicaly argue over some really different perspective and preference... So can we be done? you more focus on your personal judgement quality shows when i am closer to saying that quality of shows can't be determined personaly and shows succesfully is more important than quality... you looking down on simple plot because the plot is too obvious and there is little progeression can be made, when i am looking down on complex plot becuase you can slap everything on it as long it relevant... yeah, we can agree and disagree to certain point i think... but still, little is better than nothing... little hint of pictures are better than no picture at all when searching about something... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
kamisama751 said: TheBrainintheJar said: That's still a little vague. One man's missing information is another man's info dump. To be honest I don't find anything missing there. Inconsistencies are just inconsistencies, there is nothing debateable that it isn't and so on. The only way to bring you more near to it might be giving a few examples but that's it. I had a lot of debates about whether Future Diary has plotholes. Many wanted to know how Reisuke got his poisons. It was just unnecessary information for me. The series set itself up as fantastical and bizarre, so a kid with poisons fits. No need for more info. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
kamisama751 said: TheBrainintheJar said: I had a lot of debates about whether Future Diary has plotholes. Many wanted to know how Reisuke got his poisons. It was just unnecessary information for me. The series set itself up as fantastical and bizarre, so a kid with poisons fits. No need for more info. How I see your perspective on it is you don't care but that doesn't negate it being one. It's not a plothole because it doesn't matter. It's logistics and knowing how Uryuu planted the bombs adds nothing meaningful to the story. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Kreion said: thank you. finnaly someone said this...kamisama751 said: How I see your perspective on it is you don't care but that doesn't negate it being one. Actually, the one subjective aspect of a plot hole is how much it affects your enjoyment of the show. For me it entirely depends on the show and the plot hole, some need that explanation for me to stay immersed and some don't. For example, I don't need extreme specifics on the reasoning of the Mushi from Mushishi, MUSHISHI HAS BIG PLOT HOLE on mushi sistem and environtment... but it doesn't meake it less entertaining because that's totaly not the focus in the series... same goes with many series like recently eresed... sure you can determined a plot hole, but you can't determined how much plot hole affected to series overall... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
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