| It would have been nice if at the end of UBW Shirou had another chance to show his newfound maturity. It was a bit of an happy-go-lucky ending where everyone except Gil got his/her resolution and even Shinji was spared. Maybe they had to save up all the edgy stuff for HF. |
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MightyM16 said: --Yet Shirou acknowledged his ideal as impossible already and didn't even thought about using the grail for it to come true --His methods are flawed because he uses them absolutely everytime --Maybe, but you will never know until you try. Kerry alwasy choses the easy way out -Yes and that is neither mature or logical. What reason did he have to not use it considering he was told it can do Anything? -It has worked everytime with his scale, until the grail. And ofc, these methods weren't perfect and himself knew it. >Implying killing his mom was easy for him. There was no other way and you yourself know it. |
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Lollo36 said: It would have been nice if at the end of UBW Shirou had another chance to show his newfound maturity. It was a bit of an happy-go-lucky ending where everyone except Gil got his/her resolution and even Shinji was spared. Maybe they had to save up all the edgy stuff for HF. I think it's fine how it was though. He faced the reality of his situation head on and got valuable experience from that. If he was weak willed he would not have prevailed in the situation he was in. It would be cool to see him put his ideals in action in the civil war though. -------------------------------------- >-Yes and that is neither mature or logical. What reason did he have to not use it considering he was told it can do Anything? Common sense would tell you that. He's a magus, how did he figure a ball of mana would make everything right in the world? It just shows he didn't think about it. I guess you can call blindly believing what a certain family tells mature and logical if you want to. |
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| Kiritsugu period. |
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Axelucard_ said: Kiritsugu period. Great arguments. |
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nocorras said: >-Yes and that is neither mature or logical. What reason did he have to not use it considering he was told it can do Anything? Common sense would tell you that. He's a magus, how did he figure a ball of mana would make everything right in the world? It just shows he didn't think about it. I guess you can call blindly believing what a certain family tells mature if you want to. That ball of mana is bringing back actual dead people with incomplete magic, so doing even 1 miracle seems rather easy. Certain family, right. He was backed up and provided info by the family which actually participated in the making of grail. If that info and actual events done by it aren't legit to someone, then that person is an idiot. Its just his fate that the grail ended up this way. |
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nocorras said: UBW sequel where Rin and Shirou start a secret organization and look for allies to prepare for the war when?It would be cool to see him put his ideals in action in the civil war though. * 25+ year old Shirou with enough training to reach super human physical ability like Kirei * Waver being a badass mage * Bazzet being badass as always * Shinji became a decent human and is a useful support mage * Throw Sakura in there somewhere * And because why the hell not, Issei's training makes him reach super human physique and have someone use strengthening magic on him Hmm that sounds kinda messy. |
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| Why wouldn't they lead him on? It's not like they planned letting him do what he wanted with it. The foundation of the grail has to do with souls, sounds a lot easier to bring back one person than it does to change the entirety of reality. |
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LitzSabr said: MightyM16 said: --Yet Shirou acknowledged his ideal as impossible already and didn't even thought about using the grail for it to come true --His methods are flawed because he uses them absolutely everytime --Maybe, but you will never know until you try. Kerry alwasy choses the easy way out -Yes and that is neither mature or logical. What reason did he have to not use it considering he was told it can do Anything? -It has worked everytime with his scale, until the grail. And ofc, these methods weren't perfect and himself knew it. >Implying killing his mom was easy for him. There was no other way and you yourself know it. - Because it is an impossible ideal at it's core, so much that Shirou never thought of such possibility of using the grail to attain it, his motivation was to get the grail so in the end "no one would get it to make the same disaster that happened 10 years ago". Look how his motivation is more mature than kerry"s " I will get the grail to grant me a wish so impossible I don't even know how to make it come true outside of my obviously flawed methods" - >Kerry's methods > worked everytime LOL -- It wasn't easy for him but it was the easy way out |
MightyM16 said: - Because it is an impossible ideal at it's core, so much that Shirou never thought of such possibility of using the grail to attain it, his motivation was to get the grail so in the end "no one would get it to make the same disaster that happened 10 years ago". Look how his motivation is more mature than kerry"s " I will get the grail to grant me a wish so impossible I don't even know how to make it come true outside of my obviously flawed methods" - >Kerry's methods > worked everytime LOL -- It wasn't easy for him but it was the easy way out >It just shows that kerry is more motivated about saving everyone than shirou. Obviously his own methods weren't enough that is why he relied on the miracle.. and that he himself knew, I've already said that. >Yeah LOL.. lel >Easy and the most guaranteed one to work. Since you talking about it, you might as well tell a better method. |
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| Even Saber shuts down that his method is not the best. Conflict breeds new conflict. He can't even argue against her, he just scowls. No, it shows Shirou thinks about the situation like an adult. |
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LitzSabr said: MightyM16 said: - Because it is an impossible ideal at it's core, so much that Shirou never thought of such possibility of using the grail to attain it, his motivation was to get the grail so in the end "no one would get it to make the same disaster that happened 10 years ago". Look how his motivation is more mature than kerry"s " I will get the grail to grant me a wish so impossible I don't even know how to make it come true outside of my obviously flawed methods" - >Kerry's methods > worked everytime LOL -- It wasn't easy for him but it was the easy way out >It just shows that kerry is more motivated about saving everyone than shirou. Obviously his own methods weren't enough that is why he relied on the miracle.. and that he himself knew, I've already said that. >Yeah LOL.. lel >Easy and the most guaranteed one to work. Since you talking about it, you might as well tell a better method. - No it shows Kerry was delusional about his ideal - ikr ? - Easy way out, glad you admitted |
nocorras said: Even Saber shuts down that his method is not the best. Conflict breeds new conflict. He can't even argue against her, he just scowls. No, it shows Shirou thinks about the situation like an adult. There was nothing about him shutting down in breeding a lil more conflict. Saber actually said that you yourself will suffer which he then accepted on the condition of him accomplishing his goal. You can't just sit on your ass and accept failure like shirou then. Just thinking won't do anything. If one actually saves lets say 20 or so lives inexchange of one 1 live, then that method while still not enough to save everyone would actually prevent a bigger damage. |
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LitzSabr said: nocorras said: Even Saber shuts down that his method is not the best. Conflict breeds new conflict. He can't even argue against her, he just scowls. No, it shows Shirou thinks about the situation like an adult. You can't just sit on your ass and accept failure like shirou then. Just thinking won't do anything. If one actually saves lets say 20 or so lives inexchange of one 1 live, then that method while still not enough to save everyone would actually prevent a bigger damage. Conflict breeds new conflict. Few for the many isn't a catch all that solves every problem. Few for the many is the right thing to do in some situations but it shouldn't be applied to every single situation without exploring an alternative. Shirou isn't accepting failure, he's accepting reality. |
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nocorras said: Conflict breeds new conflict. Few for the many isn't a catch all that solves every problem. Few for the many is the right thing to do in some situations but it shouldn't be applied to every single situation without exploring an alternative. Shirou isn't accepting failure, he's accepting reality. Its all about the scale. Obviously a conflict from a small minority can't be compared to the actual positive results of what kerry did gave. But once again he didn't even want that, one of the reasons he sought HG. You saying like you know his 'every situation'. He wasn't going on about solving a street fight between kids with his methods, obviously the situations were more dire. Which kerry too did, reality was failure. But the thing is that kerry was more into saving people and in comes the unrealistic grail. |
SNSConnectionApr 12, 2015 12:53 PM
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LitzSabr said: nocorras said: Conflict breeds new conflict. Its all about the scale. Obviously a conflict from a small minority can't be compared to the actual positive results it gave. But once again he didn't even want that, one of the reasons he sought HG. We barely know how his methods worked out when put into practice (iirc we only see the plane thing from his past). I don't see how we can say he gave positive results if we're never really shown what his actions lead to. Plus he had alternatives on the plane. As far as I know the bees were still outside the cockpit why didn't he try to break the glass so she could escape then blow it up? If he doesn't break the glass it's no harm, he still blows it up. I don't think the plane situation was a situation where you default to the few for the many like a machine. Who knows what Natalia could have done if she were still alive? Kerry didn't accept reality and try to find other methods, he tried to subvert it with the grail. |
nocorrasApr 12, 2015 12:55 PM
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GreenSnow said: It’s amazing how some people have the tolerance and patience to engage in the same pointless arguments over and over. Just want to point out that those that are defending Shirou, probably do so while having his VN character in mind. Lack of Fate-route and a better treatment of his character by this adaptation don’t help either. You can’t expect (most) zero-only fans to appreciate shirou’s character when their interpretation of kiritsugu is so shallow (evident by their arguments in topics like this), the same about F/Z in general. It's a popularity poll anyway for the most part. But I honestly can't see how people can truthfully say Kerry is more mature when you actually examine his actions and thoughts vs Shirou's. And I just want to say I don't hate Kerry. I dislike when Kerry fans rant and rave about how badass he is but don't actually put much thought into his ideals and his methods. If they put thought into both parties methods and believe Kerry is more mature then I can't dislike them, because I'm doing the same exact thing for Shirou. |
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nocorras said: We barely know how his methods worked out when put into practice (iirc we only see the plane thing from his past). I don't see how we can say he gave positive results if we're never really shown what his actions lead to. Plus he had alternatives on the plane. As far as I know the bees were still outside the cockpit why didn't he try to break the glass so she could escape then blow it up? If he doesn't break the glass it's no harm, he still blows it up. I don't think the plane situation was a situation where you default to the few for the many like a machine. Who knows what Natalia could have done if she were still alive? Kerry didn't accept reality and try to find other methods, he tried to subvert it with the grail. Now its 'we barely know'? xD And yet people are so fast to jump on it when they talk about how his methods didn't give results. Its evident from his life that what kind of extreme situations he was in all the time, which by logic can mostly be solved like he did it. Natalia wasn't any great pilot or whatever. She wasn't even confident of safely landing it in the first place. You can't go on taking chances over an entire city. He knew and accepted reality, but he didn't want it to go that way. Why would he look for a miracle then lol. |
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LitzSabr said: He knew and accepted reality, but he didn't want it to go this way. Why would he look for a miracle then lol. >" he knew and accepted reality " > Tried to change it by using the grail and didn't know his goal was impossible Wut |
nocorras said: Plus he had alternatives on the plane. As far as I know the bees were still outside the cockpit why didn't he try to break the glass so she could escape then blow it up? If he doesn't break the glass it's no harm, he still blows it up. I don't think the plane situation was a situation where you default to the few for the many like a machine. Who knows what Natalia could have done if she were still alive? I'm not sure what exactly happens when you break the glass of a moving airplane at a certain altitude, but I'm sure that it isn't pretty. Also, he was probably in a hurry to take down the plane before it had reached the coast, to avoid damage from the crash. |
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MightyM16 said: LitzSabr said: He knew and accepted reality, but he didn't want it to go this way. Why would he look for a miracle then lol. >" he knew and accepted reality " > Tried to change it by using the grail and didn't know his goal was impossible Wut Boy why can't you read. His goal was impossible by ordinary means and he knew it. THAT IS WHY he tried to change it by the grail. |
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LitzSabr said: nocorras said: We barely know how his methods worked out when put into practice (iirc we only see the plane thing from his past). I don't see how we can say he gave positive results if we're never really shown what his actions lead to. Plus he had alternatives on the plane. As far as I know the bees were still outside the cockpit why didn't he try to break the glass so she could escape then blow it up? If he doesn't break the glass it's no harm, he still blows it up. I don't think the plane situation was a situation where you default to the few for the many like a machine. Who knows what Natalia could have done if she were still alive? Kerry didn't accept reality and try to find other methods, he tried to subvert it with the grail. Now its 'we barely know'? xD And yet people are so fast to jump on it when they talk about how his methods didn't give results. Its evident from his life that what kind of extreme situations he was in all the time, which by logic can mostly be solved like he did it. Natalia wasn't any great pilot or whatever. She wasn't even confident of safely landing it in the first place. You can't go on taking chances over an entire city. He knew and accepted reality, but he didn't want it to go this way. Why would he look for a miracle then lol. I never said his methods don't give results. I'm just saying they aren't a catch all and we don't know if they're always the most effective. She didn't need to land. Lower altitude, have Kerry attempt to blow out glass with high powered rifle. If it works she jumps and he blows it up. If not blow it up. 'Accepting' reality by trying to subvert it with a miracle.(while forcing your ideal world onto everyone else) Not very mature imo. Anyway this is just circles now. To me Kerry isn't mature at all and you think he is so we'll leave it at that. |
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LitzSabr said: MightyM16 said: >" he knew and accepted reality " > Tried to change it by using the grail and didn't know his goal was impossible Wut Boy why can't you read. His goal was impossible by ordinary means and he knew it. THAT IS WHY he tried to change it by the grail. And yet Shirou didn't even thought of using the grail, he acknowledged the impossibility of changing reality in a manner he didn't even knew how and didn't even consider it, in fact he considered to get the grail to avoid casualities Kerry tried to use the grail because he couldn't accept his goal was impossible, he didn't have any idea on how his ideal would be achieved. |
nocorras said: I never said his methods don't give results. I'm just saying they aren't a catch all and we don't know if they're always the most effective. She didn't need to land. Lower altitude, have Kerry attempt to blow out glass with high powered rifle. If it works she jumps and he blows it up. If not blow it up. Anyway this is just circles now. To me Kerry isn't mature at all and you think he is so we'll leave it at that. Ofc we don't Precisely know, But it is implied. What we know is that the situations were aways dire and we have seen his methods work in them. "She didn't need to land. Lower altitude, have Kerry attempt to blow out glass with high powered rifle. If it works she jumps and he blows it up. If not blow it up." Are you kidding me? |
SNSConnectionApr 12, 2015 1:37 PM
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MightyM16 said: And yet Shirou didn't even thought of using the grail, he acknowledged the impossibility of changing reality in a manner he didn't even knew how and didn't even consider it, in fact he considered to get the grail to avoid casualities. Kerry tried to use the grail because he couldn't accept his goal was impossible, he didn't have any idea on how his ideal would be achieved. So what if he didn't, did he know that the grail was corrupted or it would demand the method one himself know? If not then this decision of his not mature nor childish. Its just like he didn't want to accomplish his wish so who cares. Thats exactly the same argument. Yeah he knew and yeah thats why HG. |
SNSConnectionApr 12, 2015 1:29 PM
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| >Kerry tried to use the grail because he couldn't accept his goal was impossible, he didn't have any idea on how his ideal would be achieved. Na, subverting reality means he accepts reality apparently. Reality tells him no, oh I'll try grail, grail tells him no. Then he realizes at the end. The grail being corrupted or not had nothing to do with it. |
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GreenSnow said: Personally i think that’s part of the issue here. A lot of his fans don’t fully appreciate him and content only with his “badass methods”, etc. Leaving his “maturity” aside I really liked some aspects of his character. This is how you insult Kerry fans in this subforum, to show how superior and original you are: It's missing some more gems from the last five pages, unfortunately |
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Lollo36 said: GreenSnow said: Personally i think that’s part of the issue here. A lot of his fans don’t fully appreciate him and content only with his “badass methods”, etc. Leaving his “maturity” aside I really liked some aspects of his character. This is how you insult Kerry fans in this subforum, to show how superior and original you are: It's missing some more gems from the last five pages, unfortunately I didn't saw any insult, just some people making fun of why another people think Kerry is a mature character I actually think he is a good character overall just not mature till the ending. He develops well and learns his mistakes |
Lollo36 said: GreenSnow said: Personally i think that’s part of the issue here. A lot of his fans don’t fully appreciate him and content only with his “badass methods”, etc. Leaving his “maturity” aside I really liked some aspects of his character. This is how you insult Kerry fans in this subforum, to show how superior and original you are: It's missing some more gems from the last five pages, unfortunately >when one looks at the poll And since by real reasons he is actually mature so no probs here for me. |
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MightyM16 said: I didn't saw any insult, just some people making fun of why another people think Kerry is a mature character I actually think he is a good character overall just not mature till the ending. He develops well and learns his mistakes Even though I hope no one takes internet chat too seriously, having people preemptively shit on others' opinions based on what some idiot said on the same argument before, is disrespectful and only shows insecurity on those people's part. In this case, it became really annoying when everyone started doing it. I still have to vote (for Shirou) in this pool, but I'm going to wait and see if more people get salty over this popularity contest. |
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| Kiritsugu is, but he was foolish to believe that peace could be achieved in any other way than through the means that the grail showed him, which makes him naive. Shirou is just a cookie cutter shounen fag with unrealistic ideals. |
| Kenjataimu mode status: 恒久 |
OnlyTemporary said: Kiritsugu is, but he was foolish to believe that peace could be achieved in any other way than through the means that the grail showed him, which makes him naive. Shirou is just a cookie cutter shounen fag with unrealistic ideals. And you missed the point of Shirou. |
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OnlyTemporary said: Kiritsugu is, but he was foolish to believe that peace could be achieved in any other way than through the means that the grail showed him, which makes him naive. Shirou is just a cookie cutter shounen fag with unrealistic ideals. The source of butthurtness towards Kerry :V |
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nocorras said: OnlyTemporary said: Kiritsugu is, but he was foolish to believe that peace could be achieved in any other way than through the means that the grail showed him, which makes him naive. Shirou is just a cookie cutter shounen fag with unrealistic ideals. And you missed the point of Shirou. See his profile...he is baiting |
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chat77 said: nocorras said: And you missed the point of Shirou. See his profile...he is baiting Bait or not, it's still a belief held by people that haven't read the source. People who've read the source can think it too but at least they are knowledgeable enough to make a judgement. |
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nocorras said: chat77 said: See his profile...he is baiting Bait or not, it's still a belief held by people that haven't read the source. can't really get out of edge lord badassery sadly... |
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Lollo36 said: Even though I hope no one takes internet chat too seriously, having people preemptively shit on others' opinions based on what some idiot said on the same argument before Welcome to the internet is disrespectful and only shows insecurity on those people's part. In this case, it became really annoying when everyone started doing it. Not exactly, for example, I was not insecure or anything, I was just having fun Besides, it's really sad when people take this poll as a popularity poll when it clearly isn't And when they get the point of the poll and claim Kerry is the most mature one they lack substance to show why they thought he is |
| LitzSaber is the only one to actually argue points and I respect him and his opinion. The other argument was a negative evidence fallacy. You can't say Shirou is immature because he wasn't shown to be mature in the future.(when we haven't seen him in the future at all) 'X is true because there is no proof that X is false.' We have to use the information that we know. If there is evidence in the future that shows Shirou does something immature ideologically in the future then we can focus on that. |
nocorrasApr 12, 2015 2:33 PM
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LitzSabr said: >Implying killing his mom was easy for him. There was no other way and you yourself know it. He didn't even try to do anything else ._. |
nocorras said: Not bait, it's what I actually think otherwise I wouldn't have posted it. If people who've actually experienced all of the material in this franchise can still come to the same conclusion I did, then that's great because it tells me I'll just be seeing more of the same things in the source that I see on TV and not to waste my time with it.chat77 said: See his profile...he is baiting Bait or not, it's still a belief held by people that haven't read the source. People who've read the source can think it too but at least they are knowledgeable enough to make a judgement. |
| Kenjataimu mode status: 恒久 |
OnlyTemporary said: nocorras said: Not bait, it's what I actually think otherwise I wouldn't have posted it. If people who've actually experienced all of the material in this franchise can still come to the same conclusion I did, then that's great because it tells me I'll just be seeing more of the same things in the source that I see on TV and not to waste my time with it.Bait or not, it's still a belief held by people that haven't read the source. People who've read the source can think it too but at least they are knowledgeable enough to make a judgement. People can think anything about anything, it proves nothing one way or another. If you want to bait or be closed minded then that's fine. |
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Journey_95 said: Shrimperor said: He didn't even try to do anything else ._. well I think after the whole thing with Shirley he became ruthless its understandable even though it may not be heroic looking for another way (like Shirou would do no doubt) could have endangered innocents honestly to me it seems like you guys just wanted a classic Hero (like Shirou is) not an anti hero which I think are a lot more interesting The question isn't on who is more interesting though ( in which case its Shirou because his whole journey in F/SN is the descontruction of the classical hero archetype) The question is: who is more mature And prologue!Shirou is more mature than Kiritsugu from F/Z |
MightyM16 said: Journey_95 said: well I think after the whole thing with Shirley he became ruthless its understandable even though it may not be heroic looking for another way (like Shirou would do no doubt) could have endangered innocents honestly to me it seems like you guys just wanted a classic Hero (like Shirou is) not an anti hero which I think are a lot more interesting The question isn't on who is more interesting though ( in which case its Shirou because his whole journey in F/SN is the descontruction of the classical hero archetype) The question is: who is more mature And prologue!Shirou is more mature than Kiritsugu from F/Z Yeah. Kiritsugu is incredibly childish, if you put aside his guns, cigarettes and longcoat. His ideal is pretty much "be a hero by killing anyone that may be a threat, and if you're in my way, you die too". Shirou at least has some morals and tries his best to help people and put himself in danger in place of others. |
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OneTrueEmiya said: MightyM16 said: The question isn't on who is more interesting though ( in which case its Shirou because his whole journey in F/SN is the descontruction of the classical hero archetype) The question is: who is more mature And prologue!Shirou is more mature than Kiritsugu from F/Z Yeah. Kiritsugu is incredibly childish, if you put aside his guns, cigarettes and longcoat. His ideal is pretty much "be a hero by killing anyone that may be a threat, and if you're in my way, you die too". Shirou at least has some morals and tries his best to help people and put himself in danger in place of others. They both had some morals, notably evacuating the hotel before sending it to kingdom come. Shirou placing himself in danger in place of others, I feel like that doesn't come from a strong sense of justice and ideas about right and wrong so much as it comes from survivor's guilt and the fact that he finds it harder to see other people hurt than to be hurt himself. It's more of a compulsion than anything else. If you accept that interpretation, then they're both pretty fucked up. |
OneTrueEmiya said: MightyM16 said: The question isn't on who is more interesting though ( in which case its Shirou because his whole journey in F/SN is the descontruction of the classical hero archetype) The question is: who is more mature And prologue!Shirou is more mature than Kiritsugu from F/Z Yeah. Kiritsugu is incredibly childish, if you put aside his guns, cigarettes and longcoat. His ideal is pretty much "be a hero by killing anyone that may be a threat, and if you're in my way, you die too". Shirou at least has some morals and tries his best to help people and put himself in danger in place of others. His weapons and attitude are there due to his own ideal, inorder to get get stuff actually done. You can't put them away : |
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