CorePriest said: You need one of three things to pass through God Hand: -A Rank magic -A Rank strength -A Rank Noble Phantasm Which neither of the three Saber possessed or used. No, it doesn't matter at all if she is actually wielding Excalibur, she has a boundary field, a wind sheath, around it, so by all nerdy DnD talks' rights, there is no way she could pass through Berserker's concept. Unless Animation Material gives us the same bs explanation from Apocrypha, if we get an explanation at all. And it was already shown that the IA itself gets pushed away and what is behind it hits the object.(golden flashes). Saber was hitting Berserker with her real sword when the hits connected. |
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| Which is why I said in some other thread before that this is new and was never told that way before. IA should never get pushed away, unless you possess something against wind magic or that has the ability to cancel mana. |
CookingPriest said: CorePriest said: You need one of three things to pass through God Hand: -A Rank magic -A Rank strength -A Rank Noble Phantasm Which neither of the three Saber possessed or used. No, it doesn't matter at all if she is actually wielding Excalibur, she has a boundary field, a wind sheath, around it, so by all nerdy DnD talks' rights, there is no way she could pass through Berserker's concept. Unless Animation Material gives us the same bs explanation from Apocrypha, if we get an explanation at all. And it was already shown that the IA itself gets pushed away and what is behind it hits the object.(golden flashes). Saber was hitting Berserker with her real sword when the hits connected. Hm... even though I was originally a proponent of the "sword pushing past IA" theory, after more research, I found out that it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Alternatively, it may be a different explanation. According to the Parameter Rules, a Noble Phantasm's rank is not used in calculation for Physical Attacks, unless the Noble Phantasm activates its true power as a Noble Phantasm. Instead, the rank of the physical attack will be the rank of the Strength attribute. i.e. Regardless of Saber's sword rank, she'd only be hitting Berserker with B rank attacks due to her Strength. That being said! If Saber has some way to temporarily buff her Strength to a B+ or A, she would bypass God Hand (God Hand negates B rank, but didn't specify requirement for A rank). Indeed, B+ (80 pts) rank attacks hit harder than A (50 pts) rank attacks, which may also explain the severity of wounds left on Berserker. We all know that much of Saber's strength comes from her use of prana burst, and with sufficient mana she can maintain an A rank strength. When Saber was summoned by Shirou, she was limited in total prana (her own reserve), but not restricted in terms of how much prana she may use. She can still go all out and deplete her own reserve in a matter of days. ADD: Regarding IA's C rank. That rank is most likely meant to indicate the power of the Noble Phantasm when the wind is released (e.g. can be used as a jet boost). |
RinthNov 1, 2014 12:34 AM
| nitpick much? This has nothing to do with the anime. |
PoisonedTea said: nitpick much? This has nothing to do with the anime. Nitpicking? Yes, definitely. Only VN readers are concerned about this. But this has absolutely everything to do with the anime, because it only happened in the anime. Btw, the wind from IA becomes the blade when Saber uses it. Like I said, it doesn't matter at all whether Excalibur is beneath it. We also didn't see any golden flashes before when she clashed with her sword, there is no reason to believe IA is pushed away unless for the two reasons I stated above. |
CapsuleCoreNov 1, 2014 12:54 AM
| And I said that it doesn't matter whether it was IA or the sword beneath slashing at Berserker. The rank of Physical Attacks depend on Strength, and if Saber's strength can be buffed to B+ or A, then the attacks will be effective. |
side said: Invisible Air [Sorcery] Boundary Field of the Wind King. An invisible sword. The sword's blade has been sealed off by wrapping it in multiple layers of wind that alter the refractive index of light. Strictly speaking, it is sorcery, not a Noble Phantasm. Sorcery actually means majutsu here. It's because IA concept is magic and it has a rank and God Hand nullifies this. The wind magic is classified as C rank so as long as the wind becomes the blade, GH should just say "fuck you" to it and reject it, no matter how much power you put behind it. Honestly, lots of NPs are never well explained by Nasu and I get a headache from further discussing this, so I'll stop here. (And Nasu does it on purpose.) So we can theorize all we want until it's written out in something like Animation Material. Nasu said: So as to stimulate the reader's imagination, I try not to write too clearly about mechanics and characters' inner workings. |
CapsuleCoreNov 1, 2014 1:15 AM
Rinth said: And I said that it doesn't matter whether it was IA or the sword beneath slashing at Berserker. The rank of Physical Attacks depend on Strength, and if Saber's strength can be buffed to B+ or A, then the attacks will be effective. She has Magical Energy Burst: A, which is the ability she uses to swing Excalibur. So if taken at face value, her normal attacks could potentially be A rank. Although I feel like that would have been taken into account when considering her rank B Strength, because I believe she always uses this ability to wield Excalibur. |
KetuekigamiNov 1, 2014 2:54 AM
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Ketuekigami said: Rinth said: And I said that it doesn't matter whether it was IA or the sword beneath slashing at Berserker. The rank of Physical Attacks depend on Strength, and if Saber's strength can be buffed to B+ or A, then the attacks will be effective. She has Magical Energy Burst: A, which is the ability she uses to swing Excalibur. So if taken at face value, her normal attacks could potentially be A rank. Although I feel like that would have been taken into account when considering her rank B Strength, because I believe she always uses this ability to wield Excalibur. She does. Prana Burst, really, is just a OP version of reinforcement. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
Rinth said: Hmmm maybe they are doing this. I mean, later on there will beCookingPriest said: And it was already shown that the IA itself gets pushed away and what is behind it hits the object.(golden flashes). Saber was hitting Berserker with her real sword when the hits connected. Hm... even though I was originally a proponent of the "sword pushing past IA" theory, after more research, I found out that it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Alternatively, it may be a different explanation. According to the Parameter Rules, a Noble Phantasm's rank is not used in calculation for Physical Attacks, unless the Noble Phantasm activates its true power as a Noble Phantasm. Instead, the rank of the physical attack will be the rank of the Strength attribute. i.e. Regardless of Saber's sword rank, she'd only be hitting Berserker with B rank attacks due to her Strength. That being said! If Saber has some way to temporarily buff her Strength to a B+ or A, she would bypass God Hand (God Hand negates B rank, but didn't specify requirement for A rank). Indeed, B+ (80 pts) rank attacks hit harder than A (50 pts) rank attacks, which may also explain the severity of wounds left on Berserker. We all know that much of Saber's strength comes from her use of prana burst, and with sufficient mana she can maintain an A rank strength. When Saber was summoned by Shirou, she was limited in total prana (her own reserve), but not restricted in terms of how much prana she may use. She can still go all out and deplete her own reserve in a matter of days. ADD: Regarding IA's C rank. That rank is most likely meant to indicate the power of the Noble Phantasm when the wind is released (e.g. can be used as a jet boost). |
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BotatoPriest said: Rinth said: Hmmm maybe they are doing this. I mean, later on there will beHm... even though I was originally a proponent of the "sword pushing past IA" theory, after more research, I found out that it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Alternatively, it may be a different explanation. According to the Parameter Rules, a Noble Phantasm's rank is not used in calculation for Physical Attacks, unless the Noble Phantasm activates its true power as a Noble Phantasm. Instead, the rank of the physical attack will be the rank of the Strength attribute. i.e. Regardless of Saber's sword rank, she'd only be hitting Berserker with B rank attacks due to her Strength. That being said! If Saber has some way to temporarily buff her Strength to a B+ or A, she would bypass God Hand (God Hand negates B rank, but didn't specify requirement for A rank). Indeed, B+ (80 pts) rank attacks hit harder than A (50 pts) rank attacks, which may also explain the severity of wounds left on Berserker. We all know that much of Saber's strength comes from her use of prana burst, and with sufficient mana she can maintain an A rank strength. When Saber was summoned by Shirou, she was limited in total prana (her own reserve), but not restricted in terms of how much prana she may use. She can still go all out and deplete her own reserve in a matter of days. ADD: Regarding IA's C rank. That rank is most likely meant to indicate the power of the Noble Phantasm when the wind is released (e.g. can be used as a jet boost). No, it wouldn't matter either way. [SPOILER] Kuzuki stomping her was cos of her instinct acting up. It had nothing to do with her prana. See, I'm sure you know Snake is a one-time-surprise-attack. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
| you guys gotta make a debate about everything in this series dontcha |
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HaXXspetten said: you guys gotta make a debate about everything in this series dontcha Yuuuuup. After all, Nasu loves stimulating the imagination~ |
The sun is a deadly laser |
HaXXspetten said: Unless you want to chalk it up to pointless Saber fanpandering..you guys gotta make a debate about everything in this series dontcha |
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Ketuekigami said: There was almost 10 pages in the anime discussion thread where this was discussed in detail. And for all of the responses of people who are familiar with the characters and situation the answer was: No, Archer could not and would not kill Illya. You can go back and look there if you're not convinced. So no, it's not all random nonsense, events had reasons for happening and not happening. No, it's random nonsense. Archer stood there with his dick in his hand for 10 minutes. It's standard little boys who are too dumb to understand anything anime fight lazyness. For much the same reason the berzerker matchup was equally retarded as he could have simply ignored Saber and slaughtered her master with no problems at all. It's just as bad as Naurto's garbage where people with microsecond reaction times stand there stupidly off camera watching people do multi-second hand gestures. Little boy "the character is off camera, derp it doesn't exist, it's not their turn to act" stupidity. |
Sokah said: Ketuekigami said: There was almost 10 pages in the anime discussion thread where this was discussed in detail. And for all of the responses of people who are familiar with the characters and situation the answer was: No, Archer could not and would not kill Illya. You can go back and look there if you're not convinced. So no, it's not all random nonsense, events had reasons for happening and not happening. No, it's random nonsense. Archer stood there with his dick in his hand for 10 minutes. It's standard little boys who are too dumb to understand anything anime fight lazyness. For much the same reason the berzerker matchup was equally retarded as he could have simply ignored Saber and slaughtered her master with no problems at all. It's just as bad as Naurto's garbage where people with microsecond reaction times stand there stupidly off camera watching people do multi-second hand gestures. Little boy "it's off camera, derp it doesn't exist" stupidity. Maybe you should start thinking about why he didn't do it instead of calling it nonsense. Archer has his reasons and they are quite understandable. |
Sokah said: Ketuekigami said: There was almost 10 pages in the anime discussion thread where this was discussed in detail. And for all of the responses of people who are familiar with the characters and situation the answer was: No, Archer could not and would not kill Illya. You can go back and look there if you're not convinced. So no, it's not all random nonsense, events had reasons for happening and not happening. No, it's random nonsense. Archer stood there with his dick in his hand for 10 minutes. It's standard little boys who are too dumb to understand anything anime fight lazyness. For much the same reason the berzerker matchup was equally retarded as he could have simply ignored Saber and slaughtered her master with no problems at all. It's just as bad as Naurto's garbage where people with microsecond reaction times stand there stupidly off camera watching people do multi-second hand gestures. Little boy "the character is off camera, derp it doesn't exist, it's not their turn to act" stupidity. So many words that dont actually say anything other than bullshit. |
WrongPriest said: Sokah said: No, it's random nonsense. Archer stood there with his dick in his hand for 10 minutes. It's standard little boys who are too dumb to understand anything anime fight lazyness. For much the same reason the berzerker matchup was equally retarded as he could have simply ignored Saber and slaughtered her master with no problems at all. It's just as bad as Naurto's garbage where people with microsecond reaction times stand there stupidly off camera watching people do multi-second hand gestures. Little boy "the character is off camera, derp it doesn't exist, it's not their turn to act" stupidity. At first I thought you weren't baiting and this was just a misunderstanding. Then you used the words "Naruto" and "little boy". Then I giggled and went on with my surfing. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
WrongPriest said: At first I thought you weren't baiting and this was just a misunderstanding. Then you used the words "Naruto" and "little boy". Then I giggled and went on with my surfing. What is so bad about Naruto? Yeah, it is derailed since a long time ago but my pairing is about to come true, so I don't care. |
| Naruto is pretty much an example of decent world and story derailing into bad writing and asspully nonsense. |
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| Given that the statistics from the VN are never revealed in the show itself, I think it's safe to say Ufotable is not restricting themselves to these stats in order to create more interesting fight scenes. Now if these stats WERE revealed in the show to the audience (such as during commercial breaks or something as they are rarely spoken of during dialogue in the VN) then I think the conversation would have more weight, however I think we should accept that the stats don't exist as they do from the VN when compared to the show. Honestly I prefer it this way because Ufotable know how to make crazy and epic fight scenes, so I wouldn't want to see their creativity stifled. |
Shintai said: Given that the statistics from the VN are never revealed in the show itself, I think it's safe to say Ufotable is not restricting themselves to these stats in order to create more interesting fight scenes. Now if these stats WERE revealed in the show to the audience (such as during commercial breaks or something as they are rarely spoken of during dialogue in the VN) then I think the conversation would have more weight, however I think we should accept that the stats don't exist as they do from the VN when compared to the show. Honestly I prefer it this way because Ufotable know how to make crazy and epic fight scenes, so I wouldn't want to see their creativity stifled. That's true. The statistics were mostly in the VN for flavour. F/SN rules are not fundamental like DnD rules. They should never get in the way of delivering a more powerful story or fight scene. I'm pretty sure even Nasu wrote the story first, and then put together those statistics as icing on the cake. |
Shintai said: Given that the statistics from the VN are never revealed in the show itself, I think it's safe to say Ufotable is not restricting themselves to these stats in order to create more interesting fight scenes. Now if these stats WERE revealed in the show to the audience (such as during commercial breaks or something as they are rarely spoken of during dialogue in the VN) then I think the conversation would have more weight, however I think we should accept that the stats don't exist as they do from the VN when compared to the show. Honestly I prefer it this way because Ufotable know how to make crazy and epic fight scenes, so I wouldn't want to see their creativity stifled. Except that so far they are sticking to stats. Also no, stats are important for canonicity of events. |
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| As far as I remember, HF did not throw any stats out of the window. |
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WrongPriest said: CookingPriest said: As far as I remember, HF did not throw any stats out of the window. Was more talking about the flow of the whole preceding 2 routes. Shirou got pretty ridiculously tough but I guess it cost him with every swing. Let's face it Alter berserker would probably be EX... everything... But luck. |
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emiya_lucis said: CookingPriest said: As far as I remember, HF did not throw any stats out of the window. |
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| Stats matter but you also have to consider skill. Agility doesnt refer to just rmax running speed but overall movement. Thats why Saber can match Berserker for a while,even if he overwhelms her in every stat. It's her sword skills that save her not er stats(except Gae Bolg). |
CookingPriest said: Shintai said: Given that the statistics from the VN are never revealed in the show itself, I think it's safe to say Ufotable is not restricting themselves to these stats in order to create more interesting fight scenes. Now if these stats WERE revealed in the show to the audience (such as during commercial breaks or something as they are rarely spoken of during dialogue in the VN) then I think the conversation would have more weight, however I think we should accept that the stats don't exist as they do from the VN when compared to the show. Honestly I prefer it this way because Ufotable know how to make crazy and epic fight scenes, so I wouldn't want to see their creativity stifled. Except that so far they are sticking to stats. Also no, stats are important for canonicity of events. Archer has a C in agility and yet in his battle with Lancer who has A in agility, it looked like Archer was faster than him when he started what looked like teleporting. Now it can be explained as a new anime-only skill and is unrelated to his agility stat, but that further proves to me that they're not staying 100% faithful to the stats and abilities from the VN. |
Shintai said: CookingPriest said: Except that so far they are sticking to stats. Also no, stats are important for canonicity of events. Archer has a C in agility and yet in his battle with Lancer who has A in agility, it looked like Archer was faster than him when he started what looked like teleporting. Now it can be explained as a new anime-only skill and is unrelated to his agility stat, but that further proves to me that they're not staying 100% faithful to the stats and abilities from the VN. Lancer was holding back and later on he got more serious and faster and started destroying Archer's weapons, which is perfectly faithful to the novel. Battle experience skills like Eye of the Mind or instincts make up for inferiority in speed, power and luck. |
CorePriest said: Shintai said: Archer has a C in agility and yet in his battle with Lancer who has A in agility, it looked like Archer was faster than him when he started what looked like teleporting. Now it can be explained as a new anime-only skill and is unrelated to his agility stat, but that further proves to me that they're not staying 100% faithful to the stats and abilities from the VN. Lancer was holding back and later on he got more serious and faster and started destroying Archer's weapons, which is perfectly faithful to the novel. Battle experience skills like Eye of the Mind or instincts make up for inferiority in speed, power and luck. It still doesn't explain the teleporting that Archer was doing, I am fairly certain nothing like that was in the VN. |
| That's not really teleporting and more like moving fast, because humans can't keep up with their eyes. It's not faster than Lancer who saw the attack coming and was prepared. Kuro can teleport, Archer cannot. |
CorePriest said: That's not really teleporting and more like moving fast, because humans can't keep up with their eyes. It's not faster than Lancer who saw the attack coming and was prepared. Kuro can teleport, Archer cannot. While we are at it, where did Kuro's teleportation come from? |
FakePriest said: CorePriest said: That's not really teleporting and more like moving fast, because humans can't keep up with their eyes. It's not faster than Lancer who saw the attack coming and was prepared. Kuro can teleport, Archer cannot. While we are at it, where did Kuro's teleportation come from? |
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CookingPriest said: Spirit form does not releport and it isnt faster either.And the others like Miyu or Angelica should be able to sense her even if she is invisible.FakePriest said: While we are at it, where did Kuro's teleportation come from? |
FakePriest said: CorePriest said: That's not really teleporting and more like moving fast, because humans can't keep up with their eyes. It's not faster than Lancer who saw the attack coming and was prepared. Kuro can teleport, Archer cannot. While we are at it, where did Kuro's teleportation come from? Probably just an invention Hiroyama came up with. It's Prismaverse. Everyone is more powerful there. |
FakePriest said: CookingPriest said: Spirit form does not releport and it isnt faster either.And the others like Miyu or Angelica should be able to sense her even if she is invisible.It allows you to go out of user's sights. And yes it is faster, because Kuro. |
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