Attack on Titan
| Mod Edit: This discussion contains spoilers... Extra warning —How do you feel when a character dies? Isayama: …Let’s see. In the first place, the characters who appeared in volume 1 were originally created with the intention to kill them off eventually so it’s like aah, it’s time for them to fulfill their role…Something like that. The reason there’s a gap between what the person drawing is feeling and the people reading are feeling is because I’m the one bringing the characters to life from white paper so in the end, I just feel like they’re drawings I’ve drawn on paper. So, that’s why I’m able to kill characters that I had planned on killing without any hesitation…By the way, Marco wasn’t really supposed to die yet (death in volume 4), but because his character didn’t stand out, I had him die sooner. http://theleftnippleofgilgamesh.tumblr.com/post/84707201446/isolilili-how-do-you-feel-when-a-character I wonder how Marco would have panned out if given the chance to shine. But then of course Jean wouldn't have gotten his awesome character growth. Mod Edit: Added spoiler warning. |
ZelotMay 12, 2014 9:02 AM
| Good Riddance. Screen time would have been wasted him for no good reason. > Jean wouldn't have gotten his awesome character growth. Kinda normal and average development. Why do you feel it was awesome? |
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tsudecimo said: Good Riddance. Screen time would have been wasted him for no good reason. > Jean wouldn't have gotten his awesome character growth. Kinda normal and average development. Why do you feel it was awesome? Eh to be fair you are correct that it was normal and average in the sense that I've seen much more notable and memorable instances of character growth in other stories. But I've always had a soft spot for Jean's character, and his development into a steadily courageous yet still cynical and sarcastic realist is a glowing point in the character development department for the manga as a whole. Plus, we haven't seen the endgame for Jean's character, so this is still pivotal in light of future developments. |
| To be fair, in a manga where the majority of the characters introduced die anyways. It's not really a big deal when they kill off one of the generic cannon fodder characters. I honestly had a hard time remembering who the hell he was when they where investigating Annie as the possible Female Giant. It doesn't help that the author's art style makes it confusing to tell some characters apart. |
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| Marco was a really flat character, not surprised at all. I liked him though, he looked for the good side of people that typically went ignored. Wasn't Bertholdt even less interesting by that point in the story though? I guess Isayama had planned ahead. |
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| So Marco will die? Oh no, i like him. |
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| He was useless he cant even kill a tiny Tiitan |
AllenVonSteinMay 11, 2014 5:35 PM
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Praland said: So Marco will die? Oh no, i like him. He's already dead. Did you even completed the anime? |
keragamming said: I think he was making a roundabout remark on how the thread had a spoiler in it.Praland said: So Marco will die? Oh no, i like him. He's already dead. Did you even completed the anime? AnimeKazegake said: Weak =/= Useless as a character.He was useless he cant even kill a tiny Tiitan |
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| He has a nice name. I guess that makes him my favorite character in this series. Too bad he died. |
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| Oh yeah, when I first saw his dead body I didn't even realize it was him. |
an egomaniac and a fool |
Emnay said: Oh yeah, when I first saw his dead body I didn't even realize it was him. lol. I thought it was some random ass character as well. |
Praland said: So Marco will die? Oh no, i like him. Bahaha you cheeky cunt. Yeah, lack of foresight on my part if it's a spoiler for those who aren't up to date. How do you edit the damn title? Mods get in here. Marco wasn't notable precisely because he didn't have time to develop. As another poster mentioned, the same would have been said of Bertholdt before the reveal. But I was hoping the interview means Isayama won't hold back in the future with main character deaths. He notably spared Sasha after deciding to kill her off initially. In truth, there hasn't been a truly impactful death in SnK since the start. keragamming said: lol. I thought it was some random ass character as well. I never had a problem recognizing him, but I can see why that would happen. I did almost confuse Jean with Reiner a few times earlier in the manga.. |
| He was pretty useless. I'm pretty sure when he died I was still learning everyone's names. |
| Hmmm...thinking back....Marco really didn't stood out to me until he was killed off and that impacted jean @.@ Only then i realized....oh so there was a character like that. On the other hand, I learnt everyone's name just fine in the anime but not in the manga mainly because the time line was all over the place. I remember the first time i was reading Snk, before i could even learn about the characters, they were already sent off to battle in the trost arc so whoever died during the battle then didn't even bothered me simply because everything was happening so fast. So when the training arc started in vol 4, i was confused and thought i was reading the wrong series X-) |
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YorozuyaGinSan said: Wasn't Bertholdt even less interesting by that point in the story though? Yeah, I was really surprised that he was that titan, I mean Reiner made sense because he feels like an important and memorable character, but I didn't even remember who the fuck Bertholdt was upon the reveal. I still don't really recognize his character design. |
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| honestly when he died l didn't care at all, l mean, for me was a secondary character and l just didnt feel attached to him at all...so Isayama is right, Marco didnt stand out |
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| I agree with Isayama that out of the 104th trainees Marco didn't really stand out as much as the other top ten graduates. I guess Isayama isn't as indiscriminate with who he kills as people thought. He kills off those who don't stand out and every other character who died was created only to be killed off with minimal character development. I always suspected that was the case, so it's good to see Isayama confirm that. I also feel the same way as Isayama does about the characters he kills off. None of the deaths really made me feel anything except for Eren's mother. Most of the time the deaths seem put in for shock value. Perhaps he is trying to convey how death during war is so fast and impartial that you don't always get to go out like a hero. Maybe when he has to kill off a character he actually cares about it might have more emotional impact. If Isayama doesn't feel anything when he kills off a character, then it might lose some of it's effect on the audience as well. |
tsudecimo said: Good Riddance. Screen time would have been wasted him for no good reason. > Jean wouldn't have gotten his awesome character growth. Kinda normal and average development. Why do you feel it was awesome? Probably because he got more than a new kung fu technique. Not that you would understand. Edited to Add: The fucking spoilers in this thread. Jesus Christ. |
tsudecimo said: YorozuyaGinSan said: Wasn't Bertholdt even less interesting by that point in the story though? Yeah, I was really surprised that he was that titan, I mean Reiner made sense because he feels like an important and memorable character, but I didn't even remember who the fuck Bertholdt was upon the reveal. I still don't really recognize his character design. His being "just there" is the point. The guy is quiet by trait, is that a bad thing? You get more out of him once he speaks out about being a Titan. Can't remember his character design? Your evaluations are so exaggerated, lol. SolviteSekai said: Probably because he got more than a new kung fu technique. Not that you would understand. I see that tsudecimo receives the same treatment outside of the HxH forums. xD |
| ^ +1 As mentioned above, being a weak character does not mean insignificant or stock character. Bertold is the perfect example of this and, what's more, he was designed this way on purpose - first, no one connected him to the Colossal up to the Utgardt chapters, and, yo!, till then we had been seen him all the time (since chapter 1). Second, the distorted locus of control or will he mentiones in the early chapters, will have connection to the shifters history and nature, and, third, it may seriously connect the Colossals to the hardening ability and the Reiss clan as the bitches having the real knowledge of titans, shifters, and, most importantly, the Walls. Not to mention his relationship to the other shifters, and the major dilemma behind their goal and actions - he is capable to apologize, yet he keeps walking on human corpses. This is not a badly written character either. Many people forget that SnK is a survival story. As such, it should have a certain traffic of characters, who appear and disappear in a blink. If the reason for loss and causalities continue to evade them, I suggest not to blame the manga and read something that fits their own concept of human tragedy. In this aspect, I find SnK more curious and realistic exploration, so this is why I have been reading it with pleasure ever since. Likewise, you, the readers, may or may not remember Marco, may or may not like him, but for the 104 squad he was somebody and that's what counts when discussing poor or good usage of characters. If you remember, everyone wanted Marco to be his or her squad leader, because of his ability to assess the situation - leaving the offense to characters who excel in it, preserving defense for those who are better in it. Unlike Jean, whose purpose was the top ten, Marco didn't get greedy during simulation and training, realizing that the ambition would mean nothing, when they face the titans for real. Ultimately, he proved correct and the meaning of his words resonates every time when a skilled or novice soldier dies in battle. When Annie was chasing Eren in the forest, Levi's words were continuation of Marco's. So, in my opinion Marco shined pretty well by giving hope to his fellow trainees, but, on the other hand, such a character would create expectations reality outside the walls would not necessarily tolerate. It is that kind of reality. I think the story killed him and Hajime capitalized his death in a very meaningful way afterwards (perhaps even in the future chapters). Speaking about writing, this is how it should be done. The story with Sasha is completely different and I think that if she was killed, her death would be the example of untimely and empty death. Sasha, though, never had problems her character being remembered. Anyway, on topic. If Marco was left alive, I think he would have turned to be a glorious squad leader and cover many of the distresses the former trainees currently have. Being forced to think and gamble on their shortcomings, makes them miss Marco, although we have Jean, who undoubtedly inherited some of what Marco could have become as part of the squad. |
zellamiMay 16, 2014 10:57 AM
| When I first read this on Facebook, I was utterly horrified. Not because of Marco. Tbh, I only remember him by the macabre jokes people make about his death, but I was horrified because of what Isayama said. "I just feel like they’re drawings I’ve drawn on paper. So, that’s why I’m able to kill characters that I had planned on killing without any hesitation…" ^This. What author has no trouble killing off characters? And do not say GRRM, because even Martin said it's hard to kill off his characters. Most authors say their characters are like children to them. They created them, breathed life into them, and they it is difficult to take them out as well. Not to offend anyone, but this is why Isayama's characters are so flat and don't stand out. Because he only sees them as drawings. Why make a character, if his only purpose was to die? If he had no development whatsoever? Sorry for the rant, but as a writer-in-progress, this horrifies and angers me. But, they are his characters, he can do what he wants, and, quite frankly, I don't care for them. Only Erwin, Annie, Reiner, and Armin. But even them, not so much. |
SnazzGaryMay 17, 2014 9:11 AM
| "Hey, assbutt!"—Castiel, Supernatural "Do you ever have a problem where you just don't know how to reply to an argument-- not because you don't know the answer, but you just don't where to begin? Like, the foundation of knowledge you'd need to impart to this person before you could even begin to drag them out of their sinkhole of ignorance would cost thousands of dollars, if it were coming from a University?" -MAL in a nutshell. |
SnazzGary said: When I first read this on Facebook, I was utterly horrified. Not because of Marco. Tbh, I only remember him by the macabre jokes people make about his death, but I was horrified because of what Isayama said. "I just feel like they’re drawings I’ve drawn on paper. So, that’s why I’m able to kill characters that I had planned on killing without any hesitation…" ^This. What author has no trouble killing off characters? And do not say GRRM, because even Martin said it's hard to kill off his characters. Most authors say their characters are like children to them. They created them, breathed life into them, and they it is difficult to take them out as well. Not to offend anyone, but this is why Isayama's characters are so flat and don't stand out. Because he only sees them as drawings. Why make a character, if his only purpose was to die? If he had no development whatsoever? Sorry for the rant, but as a writer-in-progress, this horrifies and angers me. But, they are his characters, he can do what he wants, and, quite frankly, I don't care for them. Only Erwin, Annie, Reiner, and Armin. But even them, not so much. I'm pretty sure they all get some character development. But their duty was to die, it's that simple. Also he's not talking about the mian/side characters, he's talking about characters like mina and thomas. It's post apocalyptic btw, If it wasn't. Then I would've agree with your statement. |
jreginald said: tsudecimo said: YorozuyaGinSan said: Wasn't Bertholdt even less interesting by that point in the story though? Yeah, I was really surprised that he was that titan, I mean Reiner made sense because he feels like an important and memorable character, but I didn't even remember who the fuck Bertholdt was upon the reveal. I still don't really recognize his character design. His being "just there" is the point. The guy is quiet by trait, is that a bad thing? You get more out of him once he speaks out about being a Titan. Can't remember his character design? Your evaluations are so exaggerated, lol. I didn't say whether that was a good or a bad thing. Yes, I don't remember how he looks, that's not an exaggeration, I always confuses him with Ymir. It's not that he was just there. I never saw him before. Did he even have an intro? like I legitimately don't remember seeing him in the anime at all. When people used to mention his name, I got confused and look the character pages to know who they are talking about. |
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keragamming said: SnazzGary said: When I first read this on Facebook, I was utterly horrified. Not because of Marco. Tbh, I only remember him by the macabre jokes people make about his death, but I was horrified because of what Isayama said. "I just feel like they’re drawings I’ve drawn on paper. So, that’s why I’m able to kill characters that I had planned on killing without any hesitation…" ^This. What author has no trouble killing off characters? And do not say GRRM, because even Martin said it's hard to kill off his characters. Most authors say their characters are like children to them. They created them, breathed life into them, and they it is difficult to take them out as well. Not to offend anyone, but this is why Isayama's characters are so flat and don't stand out. Because he only sees them as drawings. Why make a character, if his only purpose was to die? If he had no development whatsoever? Sorry for the rant, but as a writer-in-progress, this horrifies and angers me. But, they are his characters, he can do what he wants, and, quite frankly, I don't care for them. Only Erwin, Annie, Reiner, and Armin. But even them, not so much. I'm pretty sure they all get some character development. But their duty was to die, it's that simple. Also he's not talking about the mian/side characters, he's talking about characters like mina and thomas. It's post apocalyptic btw, If it wasn't. Then I would've agree with your statement. I have seen no character development at all. If there was some, it was so subtle, I didn't even catch it. Basically nonexistent. If they keep doing the same actions despite "development", and it doesn't affect the story, it's not development. *Cough* Levi *Cough* I find that your second statement about it being their duty to die, is sort of wrong, but that's my opinion. Why create the character, if all they are going to do is die? Before writing, you need to flesh out each character, even if they are minor characters. Before publishing, you need to make sure your characters are fleshed out. Not just, "She is really kind, helpful, and loves people". Not everyone is a perfect, kind person. Everyone has a bad side, and that's how you make development AND depth. Show two sides of the characters. Not one. Not every villain has only a bad side, and not every hero has only a good side. But then again, I don't know how they do it in Japan. Development over there, may be different than the U.S. Mod Edit: Removed 2 of the same quotes from one post |
TyrelMay 17, 2014 2:56 PM
| "Hey, assbutt!"—Castiel, Supernatural "Do you ever have a problem where you just don't know how to reply to an argument-- not because you don't know the answer, but you just don't where to begin? Like, the foundation of knowledge you'd need to impart to this person before you could even begin to drag them out of their sinkhole of ignorance would cost thousands of dollars, if it were coming from a University?" -MAL in a nutshell. |
That just show you how realistic it's and how scary the world is. It would have been even more obvious if they got a lot of character development then die. I'm pretty sure he does show two side of a character Annie, she's bad but you can no she has a good side. Same for bertholt. Any ways, the mangaka wanted to show the audience what type of show it's First impression last, if he had done character developement for every character that was about to die, the series wouldn't be so good. hence why he killed off the characters early. Again it's post apocalyptic, do not expect that much character development in those type of series. Just imagine if hunter x hunter or naruto was post apocalyptic. You wouldn't get that much character development because all the characters want to do is live and try to beat this threat. It's that simple. |
keragammingMay 17, 2014 4:41 PM
keragamming said: That just show you how realistic it's and how scary the world is. It would have been even more obvious if they got a lot of character development then die. I'm pretty sure he does show two side of a character Annie, she's bad but you can no she has a good side. Same for bertholt. Any ways, the mangaka wanted to show the audience what type of show it's First impression last, if he had done character developement for every character that was about to die, the series wouldn't be so good. hence why he killed off the characters early. Again it's post apocalyptic, do not expect that much character development in those type of series. Just imagine if hunter x hunter or naruto was post apocalyptic. You wouldn't get that much character development because all the characters want to do is live and try to beat this threat. It's that simple. That is definitely not true. Post-apocalyptic stories are ones that NEED LOTS of development. Not to just survive. Definitely not. With the world they are in, and the stuff they see, it would give them depth and development, but SnK just doesn't have that. And, how does having character development for every character make the series bad? That would make the series BETTER. I'm sorry I don't enjoy SnK as much as you, but with how shallow the characters are, i just can't get into it. I need development. Maybe if Levi went from a super cold dude, to a slowly developing guy who doesn't hate humanity as much, then that would be development. I mean, both his squads were killed. I would expect some change. The only one who really changed was Armin. He went from a crybaby, and giving up all the time, to someone who is willing to fight to survive. |
| "Hey, assbutt!"—Castiel, Supernatural "Do you ever have a problem where you just don't know how to reply to an argument-- not because you don't know the answer, but you just don't where to begin? Like, the foundation of knowledge you'd need to impart to this person before you could even begin to drag them out of their sinkhole of ignorance would cost thousands of dollars, if it were coming from a University?" -MAL in a nutshell. |
SnazzGary said: keragamming said: That just show you how realistic it's and how scary the world is. It would have been even more obvious if they got a lot of character development then die. I'm pretty sure he does show two side of a character Annie, she's bad but you can no she has a good side. Same for bertholt. Any ways, the mangaka wanted to show the audience what type of show it's First impression last, if he had done character developement for every character that was about to die, the series wouldn't be so good. hence why he killed off the characters early. Again it's post apocalyptic, do not expect that much character development in those type of series. Just imagine if hunter x hunter or naruto was post apocalyptic. You wouldn't get that much character development because all the characters want to do is live and try to beat this threat. It's that simple. That is definitely not true. Post-apocalyptic stories are ones that NEED LOTS of development. Not to just survive. Definitely not. With the world they are in, and the stuff they see, it would give them depth and development, but SnK just doesn't have that. And, how does having character development for every character make the series bad? That would make the series BETTER. I'm sorry I don't enjoy SnK as much as you, but with how shallow the characters are, i just can't get into it. I need development. Maybe if Levi went from a super cold dude, to a slowly developing guy who doesn't hate humanity as much, then that would be development. I mean, both his squads were killed. I would expect some change. The only one who really changed was Armin. He went from a crybaby, and giving up all the time, to someone who is willing to fight to survive. Well, levi expression change in to anger in the last chapter do you call that development? Any ways levi doesn't like to show people how he really feels, the only time I could remember was with petra father when he was asking him where is petra. I'm sure we are going to get some development from mikasa and levi in the future since they both have the same name. I hope you're just talking about the main 3. Because Ymir and even Annie has a lot of depth in them If you don't see that something must be wrong with you. Actually Ymir is the most realest person I have ever seen in a manga anime series. I really like her. You're right about eren and Miksa, but even them has got some development. In the latest chapter did you see miksa getting upset that eren was captured? also eren seems a bit different he doesn''t seem like the rage eren we all know of. All I'm saying this series is story driven, not character driven, so don't expect that much character development. I just don't like when peopel say they're one dimentional. If that was true Mikasa wouldn't cry or smile. |
keragammingMay 17, 2014 5:21 PM
| At least this kills the speculation that he's alive and I agree if he didn't die Jean wouldn't have developed so well. And JeArmin would not get so much canon,so it's all for the best. SnazzGary said: When I first read this on Facebook, I was utterly horrified. Not because of Marco. Tbh, I only remember him by the macabre jokes people make about his death, but I was horrified because of what Isayama said. "I just feel like they’re drawings I’ve drawn on paper. So, that’s why I’m able to kill characters that I had planned on killing without any hesitation…" ^This. What author has no trouble killing off characters? And do not say GRRM, because even Martin said it's hard to kill off his characters. Most authors say their characters are like children to them. They created them, breathed life into them, and they it is difficult to take them out as well. Not to offend anyone, but this is why Isayama's characters are so flat and don't stand out. Because he only sees them as drawings. Why make a character, if his only purpose was to die? If he had no development whatsoever? Sorry for the rant, but as a writer-in-progress, this horrifies and angers me. But, they are his characters, he can do what he wants, and, quite frankly, I don't care for them. Only Erwin, Annie, Reiner, and Armin. But even them, not so much. He said he has no trouble killing characters, he intended to kill i.e their death was meant for the plot. As an artist myself when you freestyle a character and give them minimal character depth it's so easy to lose interest and kill them off. It's when others show interest, you realize the worth of the character. Marco and most SNK characters aren't glues to the story. I agree to an extent Jean does not contribute much compared to others in plot, but it's the emotional attachment Isayama has for him that keeps him in SNK. Isayama said himself he intended to kill Sasha, showing she just started out as another sketch for plot and humor it wasn't until the huge following she got he realized she wasn't a useless character, even trying to tell fans to let go of her being potato girl. |
skittle316May 17, 2014 5:45 PM
SnazzGary said: keragamming said: That just show you how realistic it's and how scary the world is. It would have been even more obvious if they got a lot of character development then die. I'm pretty sure he does show two side of a character Annie, she's bad but you can no she has a good side. Same for bertholt. Any ways, the mangaka wanted to show the audience what type of show it's First impression last, if he had done character developement for every character that was about to die, the series wouldn't be so good. hence why he killed off the characters early. Again it's post apocalyptic, do not expect that much character development in those type of series. Just imagine if hunter x hunter or naruto was post apocalyptic. You wouldn't get that much character development because all the characters want to do is live and try to beat this threat. It's that simple. That is definitely not true. Post-apocalyptic stories are ones that NEED LOTS of development. Not to just survive. Definitely not. With the world they are in, and the stuff they see, it would give them depth and development, but SnK just doesn't have that. And, how does having character development for every character make the series bad? That would make the series BETTER. I'm sorry I don't enjoy SnK as much as you, but with how shallow the characters are, i just can't get into it. I need development. Maybe if Levi went from a super cold dude, to a slowly developing guy who doesn't hate humanity as much, then that would be development. I mean, both his squads were killed. I would expect some change. The only one who really changed was Armin. He went from a crybaby, and giving up all the time, to someone who is willing to fight to survive. I generally agree that SnK's character development could stand to be improved, but I also think you're limiting the scope of what development can entail. Character development does not necessarily have to involve a dramatic change in a character's temperament or outlook, nor is it strictly reserved for so-called positive growth. New details that are revealed about a character's past, his personality, or his motivations also count as development. We've seen it in the past few chapters, even for side characters like Nile Dawk. We've seen what motivates Erwin; we've seen how ruthless Hanji and Levi (and how not so different they are from their enemies) can be when they resort to torture for information. As an example, you're misinterpreting the lack of change in Levi's responses towards the death of his comrades to mean a lack of development overall. You're suggesting that he should demonstrate "some change," but you're being extremely vague. He should show change by being more emotional with the loss of his comrades? Bear in mind that that would fly counter to well-established details about his general character and his position in the narrative. Levi has already been established to be a battle-hardened veteran who prefers not to wear his heart on his sleeve. A change in his character of that order, while details of his past and outlook are still being revealed as we speak, would be clumsy and mawkish; what you're suggesting would in fact be an example of bad writing. You also characterize him as hating humanity overall, but that is also too simplistic. We can surmise that he is cynical and detests cowardice due to his experiences, but subtle displays of his emotion (seeing his comrades' bodies, or with Petra's father, for instance) clearly demonstrate his human compassion. Development comes with the course of the story and it's best to be patient, particularly since a balancing act has to be played with individual character development and overall worldbuilding. You mentioned Armin, and he is a brilliant example of what to look forward to in terms of development. It's subtle, but he's become ever so more manipulative and calculating. The hints are there if you pay attention. |
| I think Isayama said what he said not because he has absolutely no trouble killing of his characters, but to make it easier for him to do so if he feels less emotionally shaken by it. So far, vast majority of characters that he "killed" were minor, and literally DID serve as some sort of fodder for other characters to grow/their time was simply up and he had no more use of them. He does care about his characters - every now and then he has a new favorite one. Latest one being Ymir if I believe. |
pwnagekitten said: I think Isayama said what he said not because he has absolutely no trouble killing of his characters, but to make it easier for him to do so if he feels less emotionally shaken by it. So far, vast majority of characters that he "killed" were minor, and literally DID serve as some sort of fodder for other characters to grow/their time was simply up and he had no more use of them. He does care about his characters - every now and then he has a new favorite one. Latest one being Ymir if I believe. Ymir is seriously the best character in an anime/manga series imo. And Annie is my favourite that's to show you, I'm serious. She feels like a real person. I just like her. |
keragamming said: pwnagekitten said: I think Isayama said what he said not because he has absolutely no trouble killing of his characters, but to make it easier for him to do so if he feels less emotionally shaken by it. So far, vast majority of characters that he "killed" were minor, and literally DID serve as some sort of fodder for other characters to grow/their time was simply up and he had no more use of them. He does care about his characters - every now and then he has a new favorite one. Latest one being Ymir if I believe. Ymir is seriously the best character in an anime/manga series imo. And Annie is my favourite that's to show you, I'm serious. She feels like a real person. I just like her. Haha yeah. Annie used to be my top favorite till Ymir got her development. Such a great character, hope Isayama has great plans for her. |
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